Think you can't do a headstand?

Yoga Discussion General Yoga
#17

[QUOTE=EverydayPeopleYoga;79410]Here’s a question for all of you naysayers. Anyone here read, or even glanced at Light on Yoga? Iyengar recommends practicing with the support of the wall. He does not discourage beginners from practicing; on the contrary, he shows them alternatives. What’s more, study with the man himself and he’ll have you practice headstand FIRST, before even breaking into the standing postures. Incredible, isn’t it! Outrageous, you say? And how many teachers and students today might have never even attempted the pose, had they not come across what is now considered to be the “bible of yoga” by hundreds of thousands of practitioners? Anyone want to question Mr. Iyengar? Here’s a man who is in his mid-nineties, and has spent decades practicing headstand every day for a full HALF AN HOUR! And you want to turn around and tell me not to teach headstand? How many students picked up his book, read what he had to say, and practiced at home, without any additional instruction or supervision?

For what its worth, I teach 12-17 classes each week. Of course, its rather easy to sit back at your computer and talk down to a genuine teacher. The local community has expressed nothing but grateful sentiments for the video offering. I teach headstand nearly every day, and nobody has ever been hurt.

And by the way Siva, Sivananda, while an incredible saint, wasn’t what you would consider to be an authority on the asanas behind hatha yoga. Need I remind all of you where this all came from?[/QUOTE]

I have nothing but respect for you ,but without opposing views there can be no discussion . This is what makes a forum imho
I liked your video very much keep up the good work
Peace
Cheers

#18

everyday people yoga what siva says is correct, if someone comes to you with a weak neck it could happen, this you must understand even if the chance is small it is still there. You dont build a roof on a weak base, would you? its pretty logical.
Now most people maybe dont have a weak neck but some day it might happen. And if you teach headstand to beginners i guess there is a chance that this will happen sooner or later. Just because it didnt happen does not mean it is safe to do that. Just like with cigarettes not all get cancer but some do and even some get cancer without smoking.

Siva was not mean when he told you this. He did it to help only, but as you are defending your self you cant see the reality.

Sometimes we need to learn the hard way which is through experience. This is why knowledge from experience is superior to knowledge gotten from education and books.

#19

This does not answer any of the above questions. You are essentially ignoring everything Iyengar has said. And again, as a full-time teacher, experience TEACHING headstand has proven time and time again that even beginner students can practice headstand, as long as they follow the considerations mentioned in the article and video. And I will once again emphasize, practicing headstand does NOT necessarily entail lifting the legs off the mat.

#20

Just because someone is famous does not make it correct.
Yoga is not about asana, headstand is not something needed to have moksha. Just do what you do now and you will get experience, sometimes only experience can open our eyes.
As I said you seem like a nice guy and I don’t want to create any tension between us. So I wish you the best. Take care.

#21

If you don’t live it, it won’t come out your horn. Charlie Parker
That does not mean Joshua Redman has live like Bird to be a great jazz sax player
Cheers imho
Peace

#22

I’ll have a go.

[B]COMPASSION[/B]
What is so glaring (for me) about the thread is its tone. It is not a tone of compassion, understanding, and gentility. And while that is “okay” it doesn’t cast a positive light on our respective practices when we fail to embody these in daily interactions with other human beings.

[B]DOGMA[/B]
Dogma and Yoga cannot occupy the same space just as feeling and forcing cannot occupy the same space. There are some things that should not be done in asana. There is also that which differs from one lineage to another. In order to evolve we must be willing to release the purse strings of right and wrong and our craving to be “right”. As the famous physicist Neils Bohr said “…the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth”. This is Yoga!

[B]EGO[/B]
The idea that I am saving someone else by aggressive intervention to stop OR facilitate their behaviors is merely an Ego trip. It is not spirit. If you search your own heart you will feel this to be true and cognitive agreement will be unnecessary. As a teacher my job is to safely share the tools as clearly as I can. However this should not obscure common sense. Just because I see someone on YouTube jump off their roof on a bicycle doesn’t mean I’m going outside to do it.

[B] SAFETY vs. EFFECT[/B]
To the point of asana, including Sirsasana (headstand)… all asana comes with a risk. In fact, all physical action comes with risk. Driving a bicycle in Shanghai comes with risk. Swimming the Amazon comes with risk. My job as a teacher is to manage the continuum of safety and effect thus giving my students as much effect as possible as safely as possible.

An examination of several styles of asana practice clearly demonstrates that some practices are very effective and not at all safe while others are very safe but provide little effect. I do not teach at those ends of the continuum. BUT some do. And if that is okay for them then it is okay…for them. It is not for me.

If a person wants to risk damaging their rotator cuff with repetitions of Chaturanga of wants to impede their nerve flow by compressing their joints/spine, or wants to bear weight on the head after opening the neck…that may be just what their soul needs in this lifetime. But it is not my practice or my teaching.

WHO AM I TO SAY WHAT ANOTHER SOUL NEEDS IN THIS LIFETIME?

[B]HEADSTAND[/B]
For Sirsasana there are absolutely required preparations. However when a sound teacher assess students in class there are ways to determine who is ready to go up and to what level. This IS teaching. Some students come to class with a body awareness and certain abilities. Do most beginners have this? No they do not. Is it appropriate to teach the process of headstand to beginners? Yes I believe it is when the teaching is gradual, suited to the persons physiology and psychology, and set up with proper alignment and actions. I further believe the pose has tremendous benefits when done appropriately.

[B]BKS Iyengar[/B] is certainly a master of alignment-based asana. His work is of benefit to mankind and I’m very grateful for his lifetime of dedication to the practice. He was my teacher’s Guruji (his Gurudev remains Sri Aurobindo). Over time his teachings have evolved showing that he continues to learn and that at several points in time what he taught needed to be changed. He has refined asana over 80+ years through a profound and incomprehensible personal practice. It is not his fame which makes him compelling. It is his lifetime of 8 hour a day practice.

[B]Regarding Cervical Myelopathy[/B] … There should absolutely be a concern about the cervical spine relative to Headstand (Sirsasana). There is no question that improper head placement, an inability to create and maintain the foundation, and a lack of understanding of the role of the serratus anterior will lead to neck issues. HOWEVER the article does not make a causal relationship between the patient and headstand. It may be there but it is not in the article. For all we know this same man may have played college football, may have slept on his belly for 60 years, may be a circus performer. From what is presented we cannot make a case against Sirsasana. To do so is foolish and relies on ignorance. Siva has kindly linked to it above and you can ascertain this for yourself.

#23

Agreed…on many levels. Every student will be different; there will inevitably be some cases where headstand should unquestionably be avoided. And it is the teacher’s role to be willing and able to recognize such cases as they arise within the context of a classroom setting. Of course, it is nearly impossible in a 10 minute video to go through all the potential risks and contraindications. In much the same way as it is impossible to determine exactly what will happen when you cross the street. You could be struck by a car, and be injured a thousand different ways. Words are powerful; we can use them to cripple others, or uplift them.

I am always in favor of discussion; we should always question what we have been told or taught. But to do so in a disrespectful manner that picks apart a well-intentioned contribution to the yoga community, is IMO uncalled for, and warrants a response. (Remember satya?)

Ideally when practicing these poses, we can all come to a place in our hearts and minds where we more effectively transmit prana through our words and actions, to be of benefit to others on the same path. Where there is injustice without consideration for others, the yogi/yogini should be willing to stand for his/her beliefs. Some call this ahimsa…

#24

Hey Folks,

This is all a good thing.

Everyday,

The problem I have with what you are saying is that we are not all Mr. Iyengar. He is extraordinary and born that way, a natural, and not surfing the internet at half-time, 40 lbs overweight, looking for something to help his stiff neck. We are not all EverydayPeople. Nevertheless, you have gravely misinterpreted his work, as have many. Yes, headstand is the first asana you practice…“IN SEQUENCE,” that is AFTER you’ve learned it. Why? Because you want to do it at that point when you are strongest. It DOES NOT MEAN it’s the first asana you learn. Very important distinction. I hope you will sh*t-can that pronto, for your own good.

Also, all credit due being given to Iyengar, the premier yogis of our time, as well as in the past, may not take umpteen photos of themselves and publish them for you, they may not even know how to read or write, but just because one does, doesn’t mean they are at all the most knowledgeable, most accomplished, or the best teacher, it only means they wrote a book and sold it. Keep that in mind.

IA,

I could care less if a teacher has compassion, understanding or gentility: I only care if they have the knowledge, do they shed light. The article states, for whatever it’s worth: “There was no history of trauma either to the neck or back.” Also, I think you confuse “dogma” with “doctrine.” Argue with that if you like, but that’s one you have with yourself.

Fixed and Fakeyogis,

Thank you. You guys rock! And you’re right, and sane, and probably very good students. You would also make good teachers, if you’re not already. I hope you continue to speak out, not on my behalf, but for those who need you.

Finally, to everyone,

My OR was directed at teaching headstand “ONLINE!.” Using video and photos to learn headstand for anyone is ABSURD! You need an accomplished teacher WITH YOU! WATCHING YOU! Also, for the OP to rationalize doing headstand at the wall being like triangle or tree pose, or that a proper approach is stubborn, well…frankly…hurt my feelings. LOL. If I embarrassed someone, good.

I posted my test so people know what not to do regardless of what a teacher is telling them, so they can know for themselves. Not only does it make damn good sense, it’s the best way to build a strong understanding and foundation for not only headstand, but for all asana. It works. I think the only reason anyone would argue with this, teachers in particular, is because if I’m wrong, it’s all that I am, but if they’re wrong, they can’t sleep at night. Think about those people who take your lesson, just one lesson maybe, just one online lesson, and go and practice it for 25 years. Is that compassion? Is that spirit? Respect? Or, ignorance? It happens, it’s a crying shame, and we are all responsible.

nothing personal,

siva

#25

…I could care less if a teacher has compassion, understanding or gentility…
And it is here that we differ.

#26

[QUOTE=EverydayPeopleYoga;79184]

Let us know what you think!
. :p[/QUOTE]
You asked and you received
This has been one of the best threads that I have seen in my short time here

Thank you Siva for the kind words
Peace
Cheers

#27

[QUOTE=InnerAthlete;79502]And it is here that we differ.[/QUOTE]

Having had Japanese instructors that corrected you with a sharp tap from a bamboo sword . Not gentle but great instruction imho
Cheers

#28

Everything have been said already. but strucked by a car is not in our power to change but if someone follows the video and have bad luck would we then say oh bad luck for him things like this happens.

In america a car gamechair must have a text not for use in car.
Maybe it should have some warning that being able to do half headstand as matsya should be mastered first this would avoid a possible chance of injury and as you said your self its impossible to go through it all in short time, this is correct but it could have a better explaining.

We need to learn how to approach you in a better way so you dont take it as we are against you. As we are not.

So if you intend to have your video on your website at least make the explaining better than it is now. It will save you from possible trouble later on. And i hope you dont took my tone as harsh as that was not my intention.

#29

[QUOTE=siva;79501]I think the only reason anyone would argue with this, teachers in particular, is because if I’m wrong, it’s all that I am, but if they’re wrong, they can’t sleep at night. Think about those people who take your lesson, just one lesson maybe, just one online lesson, and go and practice it for 25 years. Is that compassion? Is that spirit? Respect? Or, ignorance? It happens, it’s a crying shame, and we are all responsible.[/QUOTE]

Still trying to wrap my head around this statement…is it compassion if they go and practice what I have taught them for 25 years?

I was speaking with a student today, and he asked me if I ever doubted myself as a teacher. I answered yes, of course I do. After all, I am just one man, and am limited in my knowledge and experience. At the same time, my intentions are pure, and as long as I continue to give my all in the spirit of compassion, at the end of the day I will rest knowing that I have at least tried.

I do not mind your opinions; regardless of what one does, there will always be those with differing views. But remember, our words and actions determine who we become. Who do you want to be?

#30

[QUOTE=InnerAthlete;79502]And it is here that we differ.[/QUOTE]

IA,

True. Perhpas because you tend to blur your bhakti with your raja. Do you know the difference? They are separated for good reason. Why? Because not doing so leads to corruption of form.

When you want peace and love, find yourself a bhakti yogi, and you will learn all about morality: how you should feel, believe, behave, etc. I figure most people don’t need help with that, and are not here for that, unless they ask otherwise.

When you want knowledge, when you want to know hatha, you come to a raja yogi, or at the very least, one who does know the difference.

Which one are you?

siva

#31

Changed my mind, You are of course correct.

#32

[QUOTE=EverydayPeopleYoga;79517]Still trying to wrap my head around this statement…is it compassion if they go and practice what I have taught them for 25 years?[/QUOTE]

Everyday,

The 25 years refers to the gentleman in the case study: he got some bad advice, or saw headstand in a book, or learned it from his neighbor (from a teacher, I hope not) but obviously did not understand what it was about, and just went ahead and practiced for 25 years on his own, believing it was good for him. So, if you were to encourage someone to do the same (which is what you might be doing) are you being compassionate? That’s a rhetorical question that does not need answering. Who cares? The damage is done.

[QUOTE=EverydayPeopleYoga;79517]StillI was speaking with a student today, and he asked me if I ever doubted myself as a teacher. I answered yes, of course I do. After all, I am just one man, and am limited in my knowledge and experience. At the same time, my intentions are pure, and as long as I continue to give my all in the spirit of compassion, at the end of the day I will rest knowing that I have at least tried.[/QUOTE]

Then don’t teach beyond what you know or have experienced, especially those things that are so potentially harmful. Who cares if someone does triangle or tree pose wrong, but headstand? Pure intent has no intelligence. God knows:“The road to hell is paved with good intentions.” And having tried hard is great when it’s only you that fails, but that is not the case when you’re a teacher: discipline is more important than having tried.

For all the flack I have taken here, I wonder if anyone even considered my outline for headstand? Does anyone have a real objection to it? Do you know, people who follow these guidelines often are doing headstand within a matter of a few weeks? Beautiful, strong, safe, proper headstands: no wall, no jumping, no falling down. Not for gradually longer periods each day, but for just enough. As soon as the weight begins to build, it’s time to come down and not stay up longer. Save that unsupported headstand for when you are a Shaolin master.

[QUOTE=EverydayPeopleYoga;79517]StillII do not mind your opinions; regardless of what one does, there will always be those with differing views. But remember, our words and actions determine who we become. Who do you want to be?[/QUOTE]

Siva hacked his own son’s head off! Why? It’s called “tough love.” But he was better off for it. Maybe you think I have been picking on you, or tough on you. God knows there are a gazillion horrible headstand videos out there. I am interested in those who will be reading this thread, into perpetuity. I hope I have spent enough time with you. If you want help with your headstand, send me a PM. You could use some pointers.

peace,
siva

#33

[QUOTE=InnerAthlete;79575]Changed my mind, You are of course correct.[/QUOTE]

There’s hope for you, grasshopper.

siva

#34

[QUOTE=InnerAthlete;79575]Changed my mind, You are of course correct.[/QUOTE]

I’ll second that. :smiley:

Sometimes even the simplest lesson can take many lifetimes to learn.

#35

I found the video/article to be very helpful, especially how it is presented in a gradual, easy to understand way. Good job everydaypeopleyoga.

#36

[QUOTE=Fixed;79412]I have nothing but respect for you ,but without opposing views there can be no discussion . This is what makes a forum imho…
[/QUOTE]
A discussion with opposing views is called a debate. :slight_smile: