Truth about yoga (a article for discussion)

Yoga Discussion General Yoga
#463

Philipe,

“When I talk about the Individual, it is not the body, neither the mind. I am not talking about the self as ahamkara which is a part of the ever changing Prakriti, I am talking about jivatman which is transcendent to talk technically though it is projected in Prakriti (what Sri Aurobindo called the psychic being), there is a metaphysical bound with the jiva. The error of perception and ignorance are parts of the functioning of the body-mind complex. What we call usually self is a superficial construction of the being always changing. But even Prakriti is a manifestation of the Source.”

All of these words that you are using, “jiva”, “Prakriti”, do you truly understand what they are referring to, or are you just repeating what others have told you ?

If everything in existence is interconnected in such a way, that it is impossible for anything to function separately - then these words such as “Prakriti” and “jiva” are nothing more than models to try and help certain things become more accessible to the intellect. This does not mean that these models are the reality itself, the are an attempt to represent the reality. As far as the expansion of consciousness is concerned, there is nothing which can be called truly transcendental. If Truth is the very stuff that you are made of, then from where have you gotten this idea of transcendence ? There is nothing to transcend. You can expand in your awareness beyond your present limitations, become more conscious of dimensions which are already within you - but you cannot transcend that which one cannot escape.

If you truly want to come to know of what existence is - then everything needs to be accepted, nothing, absolutely nothing can be repressed. If you cling to the “Oneness” of your true nature at the expense of the thousand and one shapes and forms, then you are clinging to one extreme. If you are clinging to the thousand and one shapes and forms at the expense of “Oneness”, then you are clinging to another extreme. The source of existence and its millions of expressions are not separate. And what is needed is for integration is to come to such an awareness - that your consciousness is as multidimensional as the universe itself, penetrating from the deepest roots to all of the countless leaves and branches of the tree. If you think that liberation is merely becoming absorbed in Oneness with a vegetable like intelligence, then one is mistaken. This is just an escape from reality - because one knows very well that if one returns to the ordinary world, one is going to suffer. So you protect yourself in a shell of Oneness. This can become a natural tendency if you are attached to those traditions who have been speaking constantly about renunciation of the world. The strange thing is that if a person is truly free, then wherever he goes and whatever he does, one is going to be liberated. If you are involved in the world, you are going to be liberated. If you are not involved in the world, then too you are liberated. If your balance can be disturbed by something as simple as living in the world - then your peace and liberation is very fragile. At any moment, it can come crashing down. This is not the true liberation.

#464

You should contact the administrator of this forum if you have any doubts about multiply IDs, or wait that is going to expose yourself.

#465

[QUOTE=yaram;60215]To some extent, that is what even Hitler wanted to happen (by many accounts, he thought he is aryan). We all know what were the results.[/QUOTE]

Hitler was a Christian who, thanks to the pseudoscience of Christian historians making up the absurd “Aryan Invasion Theory” (which is totally based on a literal interpretation of the Bible, by the way…), thought that White [U]Christians[/U] were “Aryans.” Hitler had as much to do with Hinduism as

The myth that Hitler or the Nazis were not Christians, or hostile to Christianity in general, is based on two things:

  1. That a [U]few[/U] Nazi party members and early intellectuals were interested in reviving ancient Germanic polytheist beliefs.

  2. Alleged quotes from Hitler claiming that he, and the Nazi party, were antagonistic towards Christianity.

In regards to the first point, it is true that some Nazis were more interested in pre-Christian German religion. But this was largely kept secret from the public, and was not advocated through legislation.

[I]“The characteristic thing about these people [Germanic Pagans] is that they rave about old Germanic heroism, about dim prehistory, stone axes spear and shield,but in reality are the greatest cowards that can be imagined. For the samepeople who brandish scholarly imitations of old German tin swords, and wear a dressed bearskin with bull’s horns over their bearded heads, preach forthe present nothing but struggle with spiritual weapons, and run away asfast as they can from every Communist blackjack. Posterity will have little occasion to glorify their own heroic existence in a new epic.”[/I] (Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Part 1, Chapter 12)

Furthermore, Hitler often spoke derisively of such people, and promoted a very PRO-CHRISTIAN agenda. And furthermore, all of the alleged anti-Christian quotes from Hitler have come from faked versions of Bormann’s “Hitler’s Table Talk,” or from Hermann Rauschning. His book, titled either “Conversations With Hitler” or “The Voice of Destruction,” has been debunked for DECADES, and no serious historian uses it as a source. The book was written (during the Nazi era) on the orders of American and French intelligence services as a deliberate propaganda tool to make Hitler seem anti-Christian, and therefore lose him the support of German and American Christians. Here’s an interesting article on some of the [B]debunked fake quotes in regards to Hitler and Christianity[/B]: www(dot)ffrf(dot)org/legacy/fttoday/2002/nov02/carrier(dot)php

In fact, Hitler promoted Christianity, and had favorable relations with the Vatican. You can find many examples, all throughout “Mein Kampf” of Hitler identifying himself as a Christian, or saying pro-Christian things. They are collected here: nobeliefs(dot)com/hitler(dot)htm

Here’s an example of Hitler’s pro-Christian weltanschauung:

[I]“My feelings [B]as a Christian[/B] points me to my [B]Lord and Savior[/B] as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love[B] as a Christian [/B]and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how [B]the Lord[/B] at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed [B]His blood upon the Cross[/B]. [B]As a Christian[/B] I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For [B]as a Christian[/B] I have also a duty to my own people.”[/I]-Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

#466

Yaram, you’d be the first person that studied all the Vedas, reads the Gita daily, is Indian (so you say) and along with this also shallowly states that the Vedas are trash and that the Gita incites violence (a pretty limited conclusion that ignores basically the whole Gita).

If someone is playing games here, basing ourselves on consistency of opinion, it definitely seems like it’s you. Unless you’re a self-loathing Indian. :slight_smile:

#467

[QUOTE=AmirMourad;60247]bla bla bla[/QUOTE]

You are giving importance to yoga which in itself doesn’t make sense if you didn’t have any [U]belief[/U] that it could be useful to become enlightened or overcome suffering. You only know about these things, because of Hinduism. You have already accepted certain values of Hinduism, you are following paths laid down in Sanatana Dharma. The difference is that you don’t want to admit this and claim to have seen the truth yourself/ discovered meditation on your own and constantly tell others that they have not and chastise them for following tradition.

#468

[QUOTE=BryonMorrigan;60255]Hitler was a Christian who, thanks to the pseudoscience of Christian historians making up the absurd “Aryan Invasion Theory” (which is totally based on a literal interpretation of the Bible, by the way…), thought that White [U]Christians[/U] were “Aryans.” Hitler had as much to do with Hinduism as

[/QUOTE]

I really do not whether Hitler was a christian and aryan… For that matter, I do not know the difference between them. My knowledge about Hitler has an “aryan supremacy” agenda is based on what I studied in school as history lessons…!!

Why I referred Hitler in the context is that what Surya wanted to achieve “with his mission” will be as good or as bad as what Hitler wanted to achieve.

The “vedic civilization” stuff has political and social colors in India. Even the hard-core brahmins have stopped following vedic traditions.

#469

The current Indian society has developed negative attitude towards “vedic traditions” mostly because of the caste system propagated by Brahmins.

Now, most of India is ruled by non-Brahmins and the so called vedic brahmins are now asking for “assistance” (reservations), because they feel they became economically backward.

The caste system is reversed in some parts of India due to a combination of socio-political factors and foolishness of Brahmins.

So, to summarize, one who builds “the walls”, gets enclosed.

#470

Sarva,

“You are giving importance to yoga which in itself doesn’t make sense if you didn’t have any belief that it could be useful to become enlightened”

I speak about it, not because I believe, but because I know. And the reason for my knowing is through my own experience with the yogic sciences.

“You only know about these things, because of Hinduism.”

Certainly, I perhaps would not have even been aware of the possibility of something like meditation unless it was discovered and spoken about countless times before me. But your hearing about something only makes you informed - it does not mean that you know. In fact, because so many people have been speaking about things which has not entered into most people’s experiences, and which come from their own interpretation - it has caused more confusion than it has cleared up. Perhaps what you have heard from others about regarding meditation, and the transformation that is possible out of meditation, was just their own hallucination - how do you know ? You only have a hypothesis. A hypothesis needs to be investigated. You need to inquire into it and verify whether it is true or not.

“You have already accepted certain values of Hinduism, you are following paths laid down by the Hindus”

When will you understand that the so called “path” is an inner process ?

#471

Ok…

I think I have met here some real nice people who provided time-pass and sometimes amusement bordering on comedy.

However, most of them, turned out to be non-Indians for whom Hinduism and related stuff can be [B]fashion[/B]…but for me, it is everyday living.

Thanks for everything…!!
All the best…Bye…Bye !!

#472

We need dreamers and visionaries in society or we would never make progress. If Rosa parks, Martin Luther king and others did not dream to be in a country where black people can travel on a bus and walk about with diginity and respect, there would not have been the civil rights movement of the African americans. If Gandhi, Bhagat Singh, Rajuguru, Chandrashekar Azad, Mangel Pandey, Rani Lakshmibhai and countless others did not dream of freedom and independence for their people, we would never have gained independence.

It is easy for people like yourself to not dream and just get on with the status quo, but it is not people like you that bring revolutions in society. It is those people who dream of a better world and then dedicate their life to its fulfillment who the ones that change society my friend. You dream too, but you only dream for yourself. You forget about the society within which you are in and forget that you have a duty to the betterment of everybody in society to make sure society is dharmic a place of virtue, compassion, wisdom. A place where you and I would like to be incarnated in. All sages recognised this responsibility and dedicated their life towards it.

You see you might make light of the suffering your own ancestors went through because you did not have to go through what they did. The desperate hunger and starvation over 100 years, the struggle for diginity and honour, the stagnation and the oppression, the looting and raping. They would never have said that what the British are doing for them is good - but you do, because you did not go through it. However, people like yourself then bring back these conditions into society. Your lack of struggle to make society good, your opposition to those who try to make it good and bring dharma, allows adharma to flourish. You spell the doom of your own country. If yesteryday it was the British, tommorrow it may will be the Chinese. You may well become part of the cause of seeing your family and friends getting butchered and raped before your eyes, simply because you allowed it to happen by not being a responsible member of your society and making light of such evils.

It is not true that the Vedic risis advocated against activism. In fact, the opposite is true, they said, “Make the whole world Aryan(noble)” The Risis said that the entire world was one family vasudeva kutumbukum and we should all live with a common thought and common philosophy and way of life, because difference breeds conflict . We should sing together, pray together and act together with a common resolve. This is the Vedic vision, and as a member of this religion by soul, this is exactly what my mission is in life. I want nothing for myself - I want everything for the world.

It will be people like me who will bring change in the world. Not people like you who are only interested in their own entertainment. I have at least started to dream.

#473

It is significant to have a dream, but to have a dream without awareness of the realities which are functioning in life is dangerous. If one is capable of dreaming in such a way where one’s imagination can soar, and yet your feet remain grounded in the Earth - then there is even a possibility that a dream can become a reality.

#474

You are still claiming you know from your own experience while it is clear that you have read many books and are only posting that information here with your own twist. But there is already a thread about your meglomaniac self, so if you want to make claims that you know, because you have directly experienced truth, go post in that thread.

Certainly, I perhaps would not have even been aware of the possibility of something like meditation unless it was discovered and spoken about countless times before me.
Good to see you finally admit that

But your hearing about something only makes you informed - it does not mean that you know. In fact, because so many people have been speaking about things which has not entered into most people’s experiences, and which come from their own interpretation - it has caused more confusion than it has cleared up. Perhaps what you have heard from others about regarding meditation, and the transformation that is possible out of meditation, was just their own hallucination - how do you know ? You only have a hypothesis. A hypothesis needs to be investigated. You need to inquire into it and verify whether it is true or not.

This is all part of the path laid down in the yoga traditions and, I am sorry to tell you, is all part of the vedic knowledge. It’s not based on modern science, go find an academic study where they have laid down the path towards liberation and scientifically verified this. If you had not so strongly severed your connection with anything that had to do with tradition, you might not be so deluded today to think that you are the Buddha.

“You have already accepted certain values of Hinduism, you are following paths laid down by the Hindus”

When will you understand that the so called “path” is an inner process ?
I already understood that, but thanks anyway.

#475

Sarva,

“You are still claiming you know from your own experience while it is clear that you have read many books and are only posting that information here with your own twist”

To know of whether one is awakened or not requires you yourself to have come to your awakening. To understand a Buddha, you must come to the same space as a Buddha. Seeing that you have not - you would not even have a spark of clarity into the matter. Whether another has come to a transformation or not is almost an impossible thing to detect, but if you yourself have also come to a transformation - then to recognize it in another will be like seeing fire in the dark. And we are speaking simply over the internet. You cannot assess somebody’s understanding based upon words alone. Because what is far more indicative is the presence of the man. More than this, if you were at all interested in the path - then it does not matter where the source of information comes from, anything at all which can be of insight can be helpful in one’s own expansion. This means being open and deeply receptive. But you will deprive yourself of that by thinking that you already know.

"This is all part of the path laid down in the yoga traditions and, I am sorry to tell you, is all based on the vedic knowledge. "

On one hand, you state that you understand that the path is an inner process, and yet on the other hand you state that yoga is based upon “vedic” knowledge. If you are serious at all, you should ask yourself where this knowledge has come from - whether it was just floating around in the air, whether it was carved in stone by some mysterious hand, or whether it came from somewhere else. If you say that it is a revelation from God, then there is no purpose of your asking any questions.

“It’s not based on modern science”

Modern science has confirmed countless facts, both regarding man himself and the universe, which had already been recognized by various masters. And it is not because it has anything to do with the Vedas.

#476

[QUOTE=Pietro Impagliazzo;60256]Yaram, you’d be the first person that studied all the Vedas, reads the Gita daily, is Indian (so you say) and along with this also shallowly states that the Vedas are trash and that the Gita incites violence (a pretty limited conclusion that ignores basically the whole Gita).

If someone is playing games here, basing ourselves on consistency of opinion, it definitely seems like it’s you. Unless you’re a self-loathing Indian. :)[/QUOTE]

Consistency is indeed a problem.

Why would one read the Gita daily for 40 years of their life and then downgrade it summarize it as “Krishna… just says says do your job and don’t think about it” First of all if one really felt as such about the Gita they would not read it daily in Sanskrit and if they did read it daily in Sanskrit they would be able to give a more detailed summary of what it teaches.

Morever, if yaram is criticising the Gita because it is about Krishna instructing Arjuna to do battle, why is he not criticising the bible which contains blatant genocides and savage incidents like Moses ordering mother, women and children to be butchered - and yet he calls this “a good book” and speaks nothing but praise for it.

I think it is clear yaram is an imposter. It is obvious by his inconsistent statements, lack of understanding of the Vedas and Gita though he claims hes been reading them in the original Sanskrit for 40 years and the Gita daily, and obvious lack of cognitive ability and immaturity calling this discussion a “time-pass” He sounds like a 13 year Indian kid trying trolling on the internet to amuse themselves than a 40 year old Vedic scholar.

I will point out yaram only joined a few days ago when more Hindu members joined this forum and has only been posting here. I am about 80% sure that he an alias of another member on this forum who is trying to tease and provoke the Hindu members but too afraid to do it with their regular handle. The matter could be settled by getting an IP check done. In any case I cannot speak for certain because there is 20% doubt, but whether yaram is an alias or not, he is definitely a troll and only trying to provoke us.

I am not saying do not engage him any further, but do not take his points anymore seriously than Amirs; one lacks sanity and the other lacks integrity. Like I said before our opponent here is stupidity - not reasonable and intelligent debaters. It is clear to any objective reader the Hindu proponents in this debate have debated intelligently and honourably, never failing to engage with points and providing evidence and arguments aplenty. The Hindu members show character, intellect and high education. This cannot go amiss on an objective reader. Therefore the agenda of the trolls here will ultimately prove counterproductive to them, because in the light of contrast we will be seen to be more reasonable people.

#477

[QUOTE=AmirMourad;60253]Philipe,
All of these words that you are using, “jiva”, “Prakriti”, do you truly understand what they are referring to, or are you just repeating what others have told you ?
[/QUOTE]

Yes, of course I understand and I know very well that there are mental models. There is nothing really special for someone familiar with Indian philosophy. By the way, one can understand and repeat what others have told. I do not claim that it is a case, but it is not incompatible.

Philippe

#478

Surya,

Dharma is inseparable from existance. What you would like is for the world and it’s inhabitants to live according to your desires. This is the opposite of what a sage or guru is.

What is good for my soul is good for every other soul. Dharma is universal and so is the spirit that pervades every soul. The cause of our suffering is the same and solution to the cause is also the same.

#479

Regarding Gita:

Yaram said “Have you read the Gita” Yes, several times. I have come to the same understandings about the Gita that many scholars and great intellectuals have like Emerson, Gandhi, Schrodinger. That this is a profound, poetic and beautiful work with sublime philosophy and ethics that speaks to the core of our being. I will let the readers themselves decide:

#480

“Yaram, you’d be the first person that studied all the Vedas, reads the Gita daily, is Indian (so you say) and along with this also shallowly states that the Vedas are trash and that the Gita incites violence (a pretty limited conclusion that ignores basically the whole Gita)”

Pietro,

What Yaram has said does have some significance. Just because something is a “scripture”, that does not necessarily mean that it possesses much wisdom. Much nonsense has been written in all of the scriptures from all of the religions. One should be aware of a simple fact that the scriptures were not written from enlightened beings, they were written for the average person. It is a kind of marketing. And there has much that has been said, both in the East and the West, which was simply for the sake of gathering followers. This is why Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism - all made the same declaration - that their scripture is a revelation from God. That is the first and foremost lie, invented for a particular reason. So it should not be assumed that anything which is ancient is something which must possess great wisdom, unless you want to give your beliefs an ancient seal of approval. Although there is much wisdom in many of the ancient scriptures. But wisdom can detect wisdom, and to be able to separate what is true from what is false will require one to awaken one’s own wisdom.

#481

“The fact is that you hardly know anything about me and you are making big claims full of certitude. One does not need to get trikaladrishti siddhi to guess such a reaction, indeed.”

No. A little provocation, and it is the typical reaction of any given individual. It would have been highly unusual, for you not to become defensive.

#482

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;60278]Regarding Gita:

Yaram said “Have you read the Gita” Yes, several times. I have come to the same understandings about the Gita that many scholars and great intellectuals have like Emerson, Gandhi, Schrodinger. That this is a profound, poetic and beautiful work with sublime philosophy and ethics that speaks to the core of our being. I will let the readers themselves decide:

Thanks for posting this, the Bhagavad Gita is one of the prime yoga shastras, every chapter ends with the statement that this work is a [B]yoga shastra[/B].