[QUOTE=Surya Deva;60556]I was reading Amir’s babbling here again and was tempted to do another Amir buster, but there is no need for it.[/QUOTE]
Correct, there is no need for it since one should approach conclusions through direct experience of the highest truth not the belief or blind faith others speak or write.
Surya,
“Amir likes to fog everything up with mists of mystery”
It is not that I like to fog everything with mystery, Truth is a mystery. Even to say that Truth is a mystery is to miss the mark, it appears as a mystery to the intellect, because the intellect cannot grasp it. It is something that is to be realized only through a burning testimony of silence. In that silence, there is nothing mysterious, nothing ordinary, when a Buddha sees into a Buddha, there is no room even for a single thought to stand as a barrier between you and yourself.
“Take one of his latest statements, “Truth cannot be spoken” and vimoh said what I thought when I read that, “Then sir what have you been speaking so far””
All of these words are just a finger pointing to the moon, indicating towards the space.
“Then everything you have been speaking so far is lies then is it?”
Yes.
“But as I showed earlier Amir has made several statements which were false. Note I exposed those statements three times - and three times he did not respond.”
I do not respond to your statements because you are just interested in the game of argument for argument’s sake, nor do I consider you to possess a sincere interest in yoga, nor do I consider you one who is capable of being involved in the work towards one’s awakening. Though you may deny it - but inwardly one knows or does not know very well whether you are truly interested, or just entertaining oneself on an ego-trip.
“The truth is Vimoh again put it so succiently: he is an arrogant man who thinks he is spiritually superior to everybody else”
I do not believe in the very idea of superiority or inferiority, which are just projections of the intellect. On the contrary, it is yourself who believes in these ideas - that Hinduism is superior, that the West is inferior, that a Buddha has to become superhuman and possess miraculous powers which are beyond the capabilities of the ordinary man, that a yogi must become a “God”, and all kinds of things which are just excuses for nourishment of your ego. If everything arises out of one and the same original nature, then where does the question of comparison, of inferiority and superiority arise ? The sun emanates it’s light to everything in it’s path, nourishing both weeds and flowers alike.
If one realizes his Buddha-nature, that does not mean he is superior to anybody. On the contrary, because he recognizes that the same nature pervades all, it brings him into communion with all.
“and everything he says is an emanation from truth and the universe.”
There is nothing which is not a direct expression of truth or the universe. Either you are in wakeful communion with things from moment to moment, or you are sleepwalking, that is the only difference. What I am saying is a direct expression of my own true nature - you may like it or dislike it, it is irrelevant. And that does not make me special, it is just that I have done the necessary work that is needed to come to my present state of being. Because you have not done the work that is needed, you have missed the opportunity.
“Don’t take the mystic argument seriously. How can one take an argument seriously where the arguer themselves contadicts it”
In order to say that which cannot be said, remain absolutely silent. Become as soft as water, and you can overwhelm even the most rigid. To come to know of the highest height, you will have to come to know of the deepest depth. To come to know of your liberation, you will have to come to know of your bondage. Things are, and yet they are not simultaneously. Things are independent and yet interrelated. To come to a kind of resurrection, you will have to die and die completely.
These things all appear as contradictory to the intellect. They have to be. Because those statements which come a bit closer to things as they are have to appear as contradictions - simply because they are not following your one-sided patterns of intellect. Intellect is useful, but dangerous if you do not understand it’s limitations. And this is the basic insight of all of the awakened ones, that a new kind of sense which is beyond your ordinary sense has to become awakened. That is what it means to awaken your “third eye”. It means a totally different way of perception has become available to your which is not of your ordinary perception - a new way of seeing which is not of your ordinary way of seeing.
Surya,
“So true as well. So all of us on this forum should not challenge the myths about Yoga and not present the facts,”
If you mean by “presenting the facts”, something historical or cultural, then yes you can present some facts as they are written in a book. But the fact is that Yoga itself is a method for the expansion of consciousness, it is an inner process. And what this inner process is, cannot be contained in any book, although descriptions have been written about it. To know it, you will have to see it. To see it, you will have to practice the method. Until then - you could not even have a glimmer of understanding of what the yogis have realized. And that is the very source of “yoga” - it has been born directly of the “spirit”, of coming to know oneself, through and through. Man’s desire to come to know of his true nature, and doing certain experiments to investigate into his being, is the origin of yoga. These “experiments” were discovered, not through tradition, but through scientific trial and error.
If one cannot even understand something basic - that before you can start speaking about something scientific, you will first have to discover it, and that discovery has nothing to do with tradition, then you are going to remain in the prison of the shoebox of Hinduism, which so far you have contaminated your understanding with in so many different ways, and has only helped you become more deeply conditioned.
vimoh,
"Sarva is merely making a case for the historical roots of Yoga. You make it a debate about experience (which you may or may not have and is therefore unverifiable) and dismiss all written accounts as being of no significance. These records, by the way, are verifiable. But you won’t go there since it is too much work, no?
As I said, arbitrary distinctions. Your entire line of reasoning boils down to, “I am superior spiritually. I am awesome. I can’t be bothered with books and reading. You are stupid for insisting on history.”
And all this, you say, while continuing to pretend that you are not attached to this debate. Pursuit of the spiritual shouldn’t be had at the cost of one’s worldly dharma. If that had been the case, people would not be expected to marry, and live lives as citizens of their countries. Worldly life comes with its own burdens. India’s classical history is full of accounts of people who let go of their lives to go meditate in the forest. Not because they had delusions of Buddha-hood, but because they did not have the balls to carry out their worldly dharma"
I have already investigated deeply into Hinduism, the history of India, the history of yoga, otherwise I would not be speaking of the matter. And what I have stated are all facts - “Hinduism” is not somethign fixed and rigid, and there are as many different opinions, philosophies, and interpretations as you can imagine. You are treated it like a static thing. And all of these philosophies and interpretations - which are under the name of “Hinduism” - are none other than projections of the mind. Samhkhya with it’s dualism, Advaita with it’s non-dualism, the philosophy which has grown out of Patanjali’s Classical Yoga,Charvaka’s with their atheistic and materialist philosophy, Shivaism with their emphasis on Shiva, Shaktism with their emphasis on Shakti, the various schools of Tantra, the philosophies of the Nath yogis, the idealist schools which declare that everything is mind, the philosophy of the avadhuta’s who rejected all forms of social and traditional convention, and you can go on and on about all of the different things that have happened in “Hinduism”. And all that I am saying is something very logical - seeing all of these differences while the Truth is one, these are all projections of the mind. The mind by nature is incapable of seeing into the Truth, it can only offer an interpretation of truth. Out of this, a thousand and one differnet belief systems and philosophies have been born.
"“As I said, arbitrary distinctions. Your entire line of reasoning boils down to, “I am superior spiritually. I am awesome. I can’t be bothered with books and reading. You are stupid for insisting on history.””
If you want to limit it just simply to borrowed knowledge, I have done much research on the subject, that is why I am speaking about it. And I have agreed - the Hindus did discover the technology of yoga. But that does not mean yoga is Hindu anymore than electricity is American.
No, I have never said that I am spiritually superior and you are just repeating what Surya has said like a parrot. If I have stated such a thing, you should quote it. I have stated I have come to my awakening - which is entirely different. Because you may be an egoist, you may see “awakening” as some kind of superior state. I do not see it as superior, nor do I see being asleep as inferior. That one state is better than the other is your own hallucination, and reflects deep down your own prejudice that to be awakened is superior. Deep down, you yourself would also like to reach such a superior state of being, that is why you have immediately assumed that if one has come to his awakening, then it means he is superior.
Sarva,
“If you are going to claim that yoga is a science, please back it up with academic research to verify this. You can’t, because the subject matter of yoga is beyond science and in the domain of Sanatana Dharma.”
When I say that yoga is a science, that does not mean I am saying that it has anything to do with modern science. Modern science is not the inventor of the scientific approach, that was discovered centuries ago through methods for the expansion of consciousness. And what you are calling “Dharma” is going to be different according to your interpretation. If you are a Buddhist - you have a certain idea as to what that word means, because they have a different interpretation of the nature of things. If you are a Hindu, it is the same. If you are a Jain, it is the same. And moreso, the word “Dharma” itself refers to the truth of the whole existence, and that is nobody’s property. Whether man is alive or dead, the Truth is Truth. Even if the whole humanity disappears, and it will one day, the Truth remains. Even if the whole existence collapses back into it’s original state, then too the Truth remains.
Sanatana Dharma, the “eternal law”, is not something Hindu. Hindus have been speaking about it, trying to interpret it, but what they are speaking about is not Hindu. If you insist that “Sanatana Dharma” refers to the tradition of Hinduism rather than something that is realized out of enlightenment itself, then you should remember that “Hinduism” does not refer to a single philsoophy, nor does it have a single philosophy, nor does it have a single belief system, although some may treat it as such out of their identification with what that word means. If one says that Hinduism is the Sanatana Dharma, the statement is more or less meaningless. Hinduism does not even have a founder, and consists of diverse traditions which are as numerous as one can imagine.
I have some experience with Christians living in the West and I’ve already written here about the ones I know and their belief about inclusiveness ( Remember the faith in a match story ? ) Religion is like politics , most people vote for a candidate based on perceived notions derived by looking at his face and seeing how he treats people. They don’t do a lot of analysis. I can agree that the Bible has many intolerant passages but I don’t necessarily agree that they were actually said by Jesus. I love the little children one and I can’t figure out why you don’t. As I wrote about a zillion words ago, to me it’s dogmatic to need proof of an actual Jesus ; it’s enough for me to have the idea of a life based on love and healing. The self-sacrifice thing is cathartic and apparently necessary for most since it’s in so many diverse cultures. Institutional religion very often serves politics , sometimes subtly, and you have me wrong if you think I’d like you to shut up because I disagree with you and it upsets me. I’d like you to shut up because you ( we ) are talking too much ad nauseum to no avail. Wasting time, ours and others, and providing by our attitudes a very bad example of a life tuned to yoga. I am sorry I ever wrote anything down here. I hope I have better things to do. It is a beautiful day and I’ve done very little asana. I hope my ujayi will wash my mind clear of your diatribes.
I can agree that the Bible has many intolerant passages but I don't necessarily agree that they were actually said by Jesus.
Tony,
They may or they may not have been. It is impossible to say what it is which Jesus had been teaching. To know - the only way is to have been there directly to witness the man. Even if one is there as a direct witness, the moment the words touch ones ears, the message has already been contaminated with interpretation. It is safe to assume that the original teaching is something which is lost in eternity, and the same is the case with Gautama Buddha. Nobody knows precisely what it is which Gautama Buddha was teaching, they only have second hand reports and in many cases, inventions about his teaching. The Hinayana school declared that they know the original teaching of Buddha, the Mahayana school also declared the same, and both were equally convinced. And much of what is known asBuddhism` has little to do with Gautama Buddha - but is a long string of ideas and approaches which have been developed according to the teachings of the life of the man in several scriptures. But like Jesus - to know of the original teaching, you should have been there to directly witness the man.
When I speak of Jesus Christ, I am not interested at all in the historical Jesus, I am commenting about the Jesus as he is reported in the New Testament. If one is referring to that character, then I can only conclude that the man was completely asleep. There may have been a Jesus which was awakened, but that Jesus of the Bible is just a delusional fanatic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad_vs._McWorld I’d mentioned this before- very expansive view- America is far down this road and religious tolerance is mostly because we don’t care enough about religion to get our minds off buying stuff- we look this other direction and give an oblique nod to religion. ( I can imagine that’s a reason I don’t care much for details and discourse about it )There is a necessary antithetical reaction but it looks like a losing fight and the most we can hope for is some human touches from the Mass culture. I doubt India , with it’s teeming population and democracy , can hold out significantly, against Mass culture. Religion won’t rule the future and we are discussing arcane matters, at least as far as the intolerance of the Abrahamic religions- Mass culture means inclusion.So that may be the reason so many are tolerant though a literal reading of the bible may not be( read the article ) We are not Christians or Hindus, we are all consumers. We are not the Christians to militant Islamists, we are the consumers. Do you want to keep discussing how many angels fit on the head of a pin while Columbus is killing Native Americans ?
“Then everything you have been speaking so far is lies then is it?”
Yes.
Quoted for irony! :lol:
Surya,
It is an ironic situation : )
[QUOTE=AmirMourad;60566]Surya,
“Amir likes to fog everything up with mists of mystery”
It is not that I like to fog everything with mystery, Truth is a mystery. Even to say that Truth is a mystery is to miss the mark, it appears as a mystery to the intellect, because the intellect cannot grasp it. It is something that is to be realized only through a burning testimony of silence. In that silence, there is nothing mysterious, nothing ordinary, when a Buddha sees into a Buddha, there is no room even for a single thought to stand as a barrier between you and yourself.
Is it true that you would eat using your mouth and not your anus?
“Then everything you have been speaking so far is lies then is it?”
Yes.
So you admit you are lying. So that means we can all reject every word you have said on this forum.
I do not respond to your statements because you are just interested in the game of argument for argument’s sake, nor do I consider you to possess a sincere interest in yoga, nor do I consider you one who is capable of being involved in the work towards one’s awakening. Though you may deny it - but inwardly one knows or does not know very well whether you are truly interested, or just entertaining oneself on an ego-trip.
If you are not responding to my statements, then what are you doing right now, farting 
You did not respond to my statements because they proved statements you made were wrong. It is not good for your Buddha ego image to be wrong. Alas, you did the deed now. It is obvious to me from this fact alone of you not responding to those statements, that you have an ego. If you had no ego you would admit, “Yes, I was wrong”
I do not believe in the very idea of superiority or inferiority, which are just projections of the intellect.
Yes you do, it is obviously implied in the attitude of your statements. To tell somebody they are ignorant, unconscios, asleep, unenlightened and an idiot and they do everything in their life from cutting a slice of bread to having a shit improperly, and you are all-knowing, conscious, awakened, enlightened and wise and everything you say and do is a direct emanation from pure truth and being is obviously saying, "I am superior than you are you inferior person"
You can hide behind semantics all you want, but it is clear to anybody with a half a brain cell that you are saying you are superior to all of us
If one realizes his Buddha-nature, that does not mean he is superior to anybody. On the contrary, because he recognizes that the same nature pervades all, it brings him into communion with all.
Yeah, but in your case you also recognise that you are one of the rare ones in the hisory of the planet who have awakened it so you claim to be special. I earlier said yogis who have been working on their sadhana have been doing it for 10, 20 and 30 years - and you said “They are all fakes” It is clear to me you give a very bad stench of spiritual arrogance and ironically have nothing to show for it.
There is nothing which is not a direct expression of truth or the universe. Either you are in wakeful communion with things from moment to moment, or you are sleepwalking, that is the only difference. What I am saying is a direct expression of my own true nature - you may like it or dislike it, it is irrelevant. And that does not make me special, it is just that I have done the necessary work that is needed to come to my present state of being. Because you have not done the work that is needed, you have missed the opportunity.
You mean you have read tons of book on Zen 
In order to say that which cannot be said, remain absolutely silent. Become as soft as water, and you can overwhelm even the most rigid. To come to know of the highest height, you will have to come to know of the deepest depth. To come to know of your liberation, you will have to come to know of your bondage. Things are, and yet they are not simultaneously. Things are independent and yet interrelated. To come to a kind of resurrection, you will have to die and die completely.
Good idea, so Amir please remain absolutely silent from hereon and you will overwhelm us all
You joker :lol:
[QUOTE=TonyTamer;60604] Mass culture means inclusion.So that may be the reason so many are tolerant though a literal reading of the bible may not be( read the article ) We are not Christians or Hindus, we are all consumers. We are not the Christians to militant Islamists, we are the consumers. Do you want to keep discussing how many angels fit on the head of a pin while Columbus is killing Native Americans ?[/QUOTE]
Consumerism lies at the core of the problem, but we are not going to succumb to it and let the rules of supply and demand define yoga. What about you, are you satisfied with consumer yoga or are you more interested in finding out what authentic yoga is?
I recall reading a comment that Sri Sitaram Goel made in his autobiography. He said that throughout its history, mankind has been seeking solutions to its problems like war, inequality, unhappiness, poverty etc. To this end, man has proposed many solutions. Religion is one of them, social frameworks like democracy and communism are some others. But at the end of the day, the solution to it all lies inside the individual.
What the various so-called “fanatics” and “fundamentalists” have been doing on this thread is recognise that Indian civilisation was the first to recognise this Yogic truth and practice and perfect it into a full and proper path. They are not saying Hinduism is a religion. They are not saying that one has to be Hindu in order to do Yoga. They are not saying that Hindus own Yoga. These are things that are being put into their mouths.
At the end of the day, you are faced with the sight of a civilisational conflict. On one side is a civilisation that has advocated man’s right and ability to pursue salvation by himself. On the other side is a culture that has never had this kind of a view and one that has, in recent times, tried to take Yoga and cast it into a consumerist shell.
The Hindus/Indians here are perhaps only worried because that is something that India has suffered for a long time. This de-linking and deconstructing of Indian culture, which gets followed quickly by demonising and appropriating. That has always been the way of the west. Judge us not too harshly O spiritual masters. We merely ask that India’s cultural contribution be acknowledged.
Acknowledged. I hope it spreads with deep roots, many branches, fruit for all and leaves caressed by God. Namaste
I address the evolution of tolerance/intolerance in Religion as affected by a cultural shift towards consumerism and mass culture . Yoga is a personal science of union with the Absolute. It , and other parallel practices, will keep pockets of soul-depth alive into the future and perhaps we’ll evolve out of consumerism. I believe it’ll only get worse for general society in our lifetime. But, I’m trying not to think about it.
Surya,
“Is it true that you would eat using your mouth and not your anus?”
You have not understood a single word that has been said.
“So you admit you are lying. So that means we can all reject every word you have said on this forum.”
Anything that can be said about Truth is bound to be a lie, because Truth cannot be spoken. But that does not mean that one should say nothing about it - one must say something about it just as a means to indicate towards the space. Otherwise, there is not even a possibility of assisting others towards coming to ones awakening. The problem, again, lies not in our language, but clinging to our language as though it is capable of grasping the reality.
“If you are not responding to my statements, then what are you doing right now, farting”
It was an error of grammar. I meant to write “did” instead of “do”.
“You did not respond to my statements because they proved statements you made were wrong.”
No, I did not bother because you are keen on misunderstanding, which is what you have been doing from the beginning.
“Yes you do, it is obviously implied in the attitude of your statements. To tell somebody they are ignorant, unconscios, asleep, unenlightened”
Perhaps you do not like the fact that you are still living out of unconsciousness, but there is nothing inferior about it.
“and you are all-knowing”
You should quote where I have said such a thing. Evidence is everywhere that I have said time and time again, that knowledge is limited - there is no such thing as being all knowing.
"everything you say and do is a direct emanation from pure truth and being is obviously saying, “I am superior than you are you inferior person”
If what I am saying is a direct expression of my own realization of Truth, that does not mean I am superior either. Truth is the very stuff which the whole existence is made of, there is no question of anything being better or worse than the other. It it simply a matter of whether one is aware of it, or unaware of it. That is the only difference. If one is aware of it - then one can see things as they are. If one is unaware of it, then ones vision will be clouded with delusion. Is there a cosmic law which says that a human being has to see things as they are, or that one cannot live in delusion ? Is there a cosmic law anywhere which says that one is superior than the other ? Different states of being are simply different states of being - and to say that one is superior than the other is just like saying that gas is superior to water.
“Yeah, but in your case you also recognise that you are one of the rare ones in the hisory of the planet who have awakened it so you claim to be special”
Yes, relative to the masses, it has always been a rare happening. But there have been millions upon millions of those who have become awakened. Though it is rare, it is nothing special. If it appears special, it is simply a matter of numbers. Because something is not so common - it can appear special, but that is simply a projection. If walking on legs were not so common, that too would be considered special.
"I earlier said yogis who have been working on their sadhana have been doing it for 10, 20 and 30 years - and you said “They are all fakes”
Please quote me when I have said such a thing. You are simply inventing your own nonsense, which reflects your own deceptive mind. With such intentions - I cannot conceive how you can even consider yourself spiritual.
“But there have been millions upon millions of those who have become awakened. Though it is rare, it is nothing special.”
Amir, please take care when referring to numbers ranging in the millions. I disagree with this figure as well as other instances when such numbers have been estimated. You are clearly contradicting yourself in stating the rarity of awakening, and then subsequently exaggerating statistically. It is impractical, and unnecessarily undermines your credibility.
In addition, statements regarding imperceived heirarchy, whether actual or ideal are not entirely relevant. Intellectually one may state that in awareness, an absence of perceived superiority or inferiority is present, but it is possible that relevant unconsiousness remains hidden from one’s own awareness.
If it is so, this may be evident to others, irregardless of debate on the matter.
Thanks.
"“But there have been millions upon millions of those who have become awakened. Though it is rare, it is nothing special.”
Only question I have is how do you know, did you experience this directly or read it somewhere in a book?
Tony,
This thread revolves primarily around a collection of individuals desiring to possess that which cannot be contained, in much the same way a pack of wolves will hungrily scavenge for a bone tossed into a clearing.
If the reward of security were tangible, it would satisfy for a moment, leaving hunger in it’s place once more.
This is the nature of man and beast.
Fear of death of physicality, or individuality.
Have compassion, yet do not become entangled.
“Only question I have is how do you know, did you experience this directly or read it somewhere in a book?”
I believe it to be an estimate, which is the only possibility, yet not carefully determined.
Of course, Amir may further elaborate.