Truth about yoga (a article for discussion)

“Then everything you have been speaking so far is lies then is it?”

Yes.

Quoted for irony! :lol:

Surya,

It is an ironic situation : )

[QUOTE=AmirMourad;60566]Surya,

“Amir likes to fog everything up with mists of mystery”

It is not that I like to fog everything with mystery, Truth is a mystery. Even to say that Truth is a mystery is to miss the mark, it appears as a mystery to the intellect, because the intellect cannot grasp it. It is something that is to be realized only through a burning testimony of silence. In that silence, there is nothing mysterious, nothing ordinary, when a Buddha sees into a Buddha, there is no room even for a single thought to stand as a barrier between you and yourself.

Is it true that you would eat using your mouth and not your anus?

“Then everything you have been speaking so far is lies then is it?”

Yes.

So you admit you are lying. So that means we can all reject every word you have said on this forum.

I do not respond to your statements because you are just interested in the game of argument for argument’s sake, nor do I consider you to possess a sincere interest in yoga, nor do I consider you one who is capable of being involved in the work towards one’s awakening. Though you may deny it - but inwardly one knows or does not know very well whether you are truly interested, or just entertaining oneself on an ego-trip.

If you are not responding to my statements, then what are you doing right now, farting :wink: You did not respond to my statements because they proved statements you made were wrong. It is not good for your Buddha ego image to be wrong. Alas, you did the deed now. It is obvious to me from this fact alone of you not responding to those statements, that you have an ego. If you had no ego you would admit, “Yes, I was wrong”

I do not believe in the very idea of superiority or inferiority, which are just projections of the intellect.

Yes you do, it is obviously implied in the attitude of your statements. To tell somebody they are ignorant, unconscios, asleep, unenlightened and an idiot and they do everything in their life from cutting a slice of bread to having a shit improperly, and you are all-knowing, conscious, awakened, enlightened and wise and everything you say and do is a direct emanation from pure truth and being is obviously saying, "I am superior than you are you inferior person"
You can hide behind semantics all you want, but it is clear to anybody with a half a brain cell that you are saying you are superior to all of us

If one realizes his Buddha-nature, that does not mean he is superior to anybody. On the contrary, because he recognizes that the same nature pervades all, it brings him into communion with all.

Yeah, but in your case you also recognise that you are one of the rare ones in the hisory of the planet who have awakened it so you claim to be special. I earlier said yogis who have been working on their sadhana have been doing it for 10, 20 and 30 years - and you said “They are all fakes” It is clear to me you give a very bad stench of spiritual arrogance and ironically have nothing to show for it.

There is nothing which is not a direct expression of truth or the universe. Either you are in wakeful communion with things from moment to moment, or you are sleepwalking, that is the only difference. What I am saying is a direct expression of my own true nature - you may like it or dislike it, it is irrelevant. And that does not make me special, it is just that I have done the necessary work that is needed to come to my present state of being. Because you have not done the work that is needed, you have missed the opportunity.

You mean you have read tons of book on Zen :smiley:

In order to say that which cannot be said, remain absolutely silent. Become as soft as water, and you can overwhelm even the most rigid. To come to know of the highest height, you will have to come to know of the deepest depth. To come to know of your liberation, you will have to come to know of your bondage. Things are, and yet they are not simultaneously. Things are independent and yet interrelated. To come to a kind of resurrection, you will have to die and die completely.

Good idea, so Amir please remain absolutely silent from hereon and you will overwhelm us all :wink:

You joker :lol:

[QUOTE=TonyTamer;60604] Mass culture means inclusion.So that may be the reason so many are tolerant though a literal reading of the bible may not be( read the article ) We are not Christians or Hindus, we are all consumers. We are not the Christians to militant Islamists, we are the consumers. Do you want to keep discussing how many angels fit on the head of a pin while Columbus is killing Native Americans ?[/QUOTE]

Consumerism lies at the core of the problem, but we are not going to succumb to it and let the rules of supply and demand define yoga. What about you, are you satisfied with consumer yoga or are you more interested in finding out what authentic yoga is?

I recall reading a comment that Sri Sitaram Goel made in his autobiography. He said that throughout its history, mankind has been seeking solutions to its problems like war, inequality, unhappiness, poverty etc. To this end, man has proposed many solutions. Religion is one of them, social frameworks like democracy and communism are some others. But at the end of the day, the solution to it all lies inside the individual.

What the various so-called “fanatics” and “fundamentalists” have been doing on this thread is recognise that Indian civilisation was the first to recognise this Yogic truth and practice and perfect it into a full and proper path. They are not saying Hinduism is a religion. They are not saying that one has to be Hindu in order to do Yoga. They are not saying that Hindus own Yoga. These are things that are being put into their mouths.

At the end of the day, you are faced with the sight of a civilisational conflict. On one side is a civilisation that has advocated man’s right and ability to pursue salvation by himself. On the other side is a culture that has never had this kind of a view and one that has, in recent times, tried to take Yoga and cast it into a consumerist shell.

The Hindus/Indians here are perhaps only worried because that is something that India has suffered for a long time. This de-linking and deconstructing of Indian culture, which gets followed quickly by demonising and appropriating. That has always been the way of the west. Judge us not too harshly O spiritual masters. We merely ask that India’s cultural contribution be acknowledged.

Acknowledged. I hope it spreads with deep roots, many branches, fruit for all and leaves caressed by God. Namaste

I address the evolution of tolerance/intolerance in Religion as affected by a cultural shift towards consumerism and mass culture . Yoga is a personal science of union with the Absolute. It , and other parallel practices, will keep pockets of soul-depth alive into the future and perhaps we’ll evolve out of consumerism. I believe it’ll only get worse for general society in our lifetime. But, I’m trying not to think about it.

Surya,

“Is it true that you would eat using your mouth and not your anus?”

You have not understood a single word that has been said.

“So you admit you are lying. So that means we can all reject every word you have said on this forum.”

Anything that can be said about Truth is bound to be a lie, because Truth cannot be spoken. But that does not mean that one should say nothing about it - one must say something about it just as a means to indicate towards the space. Otherwise, there is not even a possibility of assisting others towards coming to ones awakening. The problem, again, lies not in our language, but clinging to our language as though it is capable of grasping the reality.

“If you are not responding to my statements, then what are you doing right now, farting”

It was an error of grammar. I meant to write “did” instead of “do”.

“You did not respond to my statements because they proved statements you made were wrong.”

No, I did not bother because you are keen on misunderstanding, which is what you have been doing from the beginning.

“Yes you do, it is obviously implied in the attitude of your statements. To tell somebody they are ignorant, unconscios, asleep, unenlightened”

Perhaps you do not like the fact that you are still living out of unconsciousness, but there is nothing inferior about it.

“and you are all-knowing”

You should quote where I have said such a thing. Evidence is everywhere that I have said time and time again, that knowledge is limited - there is no such thing as being all knowing.

"everything you say and do is a direct emanation from pure truth and being is obviously saying, “I am superior than you are you inferior person”

If what I am saying is a direct expression of my own realization of Truth, that does not mean I am superior either. Truth is the very stuff which the whole existence is made of, there is no question of anything being better or worse than the other. It it simply a matter of whether one is aware of it, or unaware of it. That is the only difference. If one is aware of it - then one can see things as they are. If one is unaware of it, then ones vision will be clouded with delusion. Is there a cosmic law which says that a human being has to see things as they are, or that one cannot live in delusion ? Is there a cosmic law anywhere which says that one is superior than the other ? Different states of being are simply different states of being - and to say that one is superior than the other is just like saying that gas is superior to water.

“Yeah, but in your case you also recognise that you are one of the rare ones in the hisory of the planet who have awakened it so you claim to be special”

Yes, relative to the masses, it has always been a rare happening. But there have been millions upon millions of those who have become awakened. Though it is rare, it is nothing special. If it appears special, it is simply a matter of numbers. Because something is not so common - it can appear special, but that is simply a projection. If walking on legs were not so common, that too would be considered special.

"I earlier said yogis who have been working on their sadhana have been doing it for 10, 20 and 30 years - and you said “They are all fakes”

Please quote me when I have said such a thing. You are simply inventing your own nonsense, which reflects your own deceptive mind. With such intentions - I cannot conceive how you can even consider yourself spiritual.

“But there have been millions upon millions of those who have become awakened. Though it is rare, it is nothing special.”

Amir, please take care when referring to numbers ranging in the millions. I disagree with this figure as well as other instances when such numbers have been estimated. You are clearly contradicting yourself in stating the rarity of awakening, and then subsequently exaggerating statistically. It is impractical, and unnecessarily undermines your credibility.

In addition, statements regarding imperceived heirarchy, whether actual or ideal are not entirely relevant. Intellectually one may state that in awareness, an absence of perceived superiority or inferiority is present, but it is possible that relevant unconsiousness remains hidden from one’s own awareness.

If it is so, this may be evident to others, irregardless of debate on the matter.

Thanks.

"“But there have been millions upon millions of those who have become awakened. Though it is rare, it is nothing special.”

Only question I have is how do you know, did you experience this directly or read it somewhere in a book?

Tony,

This thread revolves primarily around a collection of individuals desiring to possess that which cannot be contained, in much the same way a pack of wolves will hungrily scavenge for a bone tossed into a clearing.

If the reward of security were tangible, it would satisfy for a moment, leaving hunger in it’s place once more.

This is the nature of man and beast.

Fear of death of physicality, or individuality.

Have compassion, yet do not become entangled.

“Only question I have is how do you know, did you experience this directly or read it somewhere in a book?”

I believe it to be an estimate, which is the only possibility, yet not carefully determined.

Of course, Amir may further elaborate.

This was an interlude, a lull between waves and another wave just hit me ; this is piffle. Y’all have fun while it lasts. Don’t waste your time arguing…you are really saying good-bye. If any person here was looking at any person here while dying I think you’d reach out with your heart as humans were meant to. Later

Sarva,

“Only question I have is how do you know, did you experience this directly or read it somewhere in a book”

It is out of my own reasoning. When I say that there have been millions upon millions who have become awakened, you may think that this is a large number of people. But it is absolutely nothing in comparison to all of the people who have ever lived and died on this planet. There have been realized Buddhas within all of the traditions as well as their many sects and subsects - Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism, Sufism, mystic Christianity, atheists, and so on. And those which have been recorded are just those which are known - there have been so many realized Buddhas whom history has not even recorded, whose names will never be known to the world.

Ah, so it was not out of your direct experience, it was out of your reasoning :wink:

You joker :smiley:

The definition of Yoga has evolved in modern times to mean only the physical exercise for the most part, which in my opinion is a complete wast of ones time. You are better off going to a gym or doing a martial art. Modern Yogi’s have also included many life denying tendencies of the Buddhist and Jains.

The Vedic lineage was much more practical and at the same time more sublime. The householder rituals in themselves are incredibly deep. The siting and standing asana, pranayama and the focus on light moving through the chakras are an integral part of many Vedic rituals. These were the earliest manifestations of Yoga and the heart of the practice.

All the ancient literature on Yoga including those on Hatha and Ashtanga fall under the Hindu cannon and even those that may not at least have a dedication to a deva or devi, making them mostly from the Hindu perspective.

Much of world history is falsely re-written from a very western point of view. This is becoming very obvious in the study Egyptology. But it is taking longer for this realization when it comes to Indian history, because of the fabricated fear of ‘Hindu Fundamentalism’ (the greatest oxymoron ever perpetuated - though the silliness of this notion will become apparent eventually).

I am not worried. India will get it’s due credit in time…

For more on Vedic vs. Sramanic approach, read my ‘Thoughts on Meditation’ thread.

studio?? lol… are we producing entertainment here…
as buddha says “life is a suffering”. u r here for one reason only…

[QUOTE=sonictantra;64357]
as buddha says “life is a suffering”. u r here for one reason only…[/QUOTE]

Hmmmm…I question that ‘life is suffering.’ For you maybe…:wink:

Ok, I will give my take, as the Buddha had many teachers from both the Brahmana and Sramana lineages. In the Vedas, there are later discourses that life itself is a ‘Yagna,’ that is a constant reformation of matter that must die for new things to be created. I believe the Buddha interpreted these teachings (from live people, not from the Vedas) as ‘life is suffering.’ The pre-Jain Sramanas were probably also an influence who introduced Reincarnation proper where all lifeforms literally take on other bodies with each birth (as apposed to dissolving into ‘elements’ that recombine). Sankara, the Hindu reformer, liked the later idea better and incorporated that into the teachings.

But I think it is a strange assumption to say ‘life is suffering.’ I will get more into this as I have read a lot of the source Sanskrit texts and have come up with my own theories on why Buddhism did not flourish in India, but lived instead within the teaching of the North Indian Vaishnava schools and the South Indian Sankara schools (neither of which I agree with completely).

Kasi,

“All the ancient literature on Yoga including those on Hatha and Ashtanga fall under the Hindu cannon and even those that may not at least have a dedication to a deva or devi, making them mostly from the Hindu perspective.”

Certainly, the yogic sciences have been discovered in India by the Hindus. But it is important for us to understand that if we are speaking of yoga, then we are not speaking of any particular belief system or religion, we are simply speaking of a methodology and technology which is scientific, which has been born out of thousands of years of investigation into the being of man himself. And to understand what “yoga” is, is not something that can be learned from any scripture or religion, you will have to enter into the innermost depths of your own being and come to know yourself - it is only something that can arise out of direct experience. If one insists that “yoga” is a belief system rather than a technology - then one will have to then investigate into what is the real “yoga” - the atheistic yoga of Samkhya or the Charvakas, the “yoga” of the Buddhists which have a belief system which is in direct rejection of the Hindu philosophy, or the Jain “yoga”, or the Advaita “yoga” - which is opposite to the philosophy adopted by Patanjali which is strongly dualistic, or the philosophical model that is used in Patanjalis “yoga” - and one can go on and on as to the various different traditions and belief systems which have used yoga. Because while ones belief systems and traditions may be different - yoga is itself simply a technology for the expansion of consciousness. And even if you are clinging to merely borrowed knowledge, then one will find it tremendously difficult to define “yoga” in any fixed way, so many approaches and methods have been used in the work of the expansion of consciousness towards ones enlightenment, that it is almost impossible to cast a shoe-box on the vast valley.

Yes, yoga has been discovered in India, just as electricity had been discovered in the West. But neither yoga is Indian, nor electricity is Western. If one is to set aside all belief systems and enter into the very heart of the matter, then the word itself simply means “Union”. If you come to know of a state of consciousness in which you are in direct communion with your own true nature, then you are in a state of yoga. Patanjali has said that Yoga is none other than the stillness of the mind, and once the activity of the mind has come to a stillness, then the Seer sees into itself. Vyasa has said “Yoga is Samadhi”. If you come to direct experience of samadhi, then you are in a state of yoga. Even if you are American, Chinese, Japanese, British, or an alien living on another planet - still you have discovered a state of yoga. That is why yoga is scientific, it has to do with discovery, not with imagination, and anything which is a discovery is a scientific phenomenon - though we may give it different names. Whether you call the conscious mind “jagrata” (waking state) or whether you call it the conscious mind, makes no difference at all. These are all just fingers pointing to the moon, attempts to express the inexpressible, and unless you have a direct vision into the inexpressible, then all of ones thinking and believing is just going to be like one trying to swallow the whole ocean into ones belly, or trying to grasp the vastness of space into ones fist.

Kasi,

’ I believe the Buddha interpreted these teachings (from live people, not from the Vedas) as ‘life is suffering.’

It has absolutely nothing to do with borrowed knowledge, what Gautama Buddha has seen was out of ones own direct insight into seeing things as they are. And if you have clear eyes, then you will be able to verify the same phenomenon - that life for most people who are living in a deep sleep is certainly full of suffering. By ’ suffering ‘, one does not mean being dragged and thrown into some kind of torture chamber. ’ Suffering’ simply means, that for one reason or another, you are simply not contented with things as they are. You may be trying to achieve all kinds of things in the world, but whatever is achieved is not going to be capable of providing anything more than temporary sastifaction. That is natural - the whole universe is in a constant state of change, the flux is unceasing. Not just the whole universe, but the mind and body themselves are also in a constant stream of change. So if you are clinging to anything which may arise in your experience rather than moving in harmony with the stream of things, then it is certain to create immense suffering for oneself. This is not a belief or a philosophy - this is simply direct insight into things as they are.

'The pre-Jain Sramanas were probably also an influence who introduced Reincarnation proper where all lifeforms literally take on other bodies with each birth (as apposed to dissolving into ‘elements’ that recombine). Sankara, the Hindu reformer, liked the later idea better ’

For one such as yourself, so called ‘reincarnation’ is just that - nothing more than an idea. But for one who has come to know oneself, through and through, it is simply a scientific fact. How ‘reincarnation’ is interpreted is another matter entirely, but it is not something which is born out of philosophy. Because once you enter into the deeper levels of your unconscious through meditation - then you will discover so many memories of so called past lives - not just memories of being a human, but there may be memories of being a bird, a dog, a lion, a fly or a worm - a whole history of life has been recorded in the depths of one uncosncious. There is certain information that has entered into ones mind which is just what your mind has gathered in this life, and there is certain information your mind has gathered at birth as a result of thousands of years of evolution, which is impersonal. And what is certain is that if your energies have taken the form of past lives, then they are certain to manifest in future lives. Nothing in existence is ever created or destroyed, it is just recycled in countless different ways. So while ‘reincarnation’ may be just an idea for those who have yet to come to such discoveries, for those who have been walking the path towards their awakening and have come to a certain direct experience of such things, it is simply a scientific phenomenon.