Truth about yoga (a article for discussion)

Tonytamer,

You did not debunk any of our arguments. The argument we gave Christianity is an intolerant religion you rebuted by saying your a good Christian, your mum is a good Christian and Father Peter is a good Christian. But we were not saying that Christianity did not have good people who were Christians - we were saying the religion is intolerant. I myself said I have have many good friends who are Christian and I also recognised some rare sects of Christian today which are tolerant. You are not going to get any argument from me that there are good people in Christianity. I agree with that myself. There is no doubt on the matter as far as I concerned.

But when we talk about the Christian religion itself we are not talking about people but doctrines. It is a fact that Christian doctrine preaches intolerance:

I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it." (Mark 10:15)

“Then Jesus told them, 'Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” (John 20:29)

“I [Jesus] am the way and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” (John 14:6)

“Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.” (Mark 16:15-16) {1}

"The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas. He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved - you and your household.” (Acts 16:29-31)

“The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities - his eternal power and divine nature - have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.” (Ro 1:18-23)

God will give to each person according to what he has done. To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism." (Ro 2:6-10)

“For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.” (Ro 2:13)

“This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.” (Ro 3:22)
Classical Views
For most of its history, Christianity has been an “exclusive” religion. That is, it has taught that salvation is available only to Christians. Thus, from the very beginning, Christians attached great importance to spreading the news about Christianity through missionary and evangelistic efforts, believing that people were lost without it.

In the earliest centuries of the church, the Christian requirements for salvation were very simple. The message was as simple as that given to the prison guards in Acts: Repent and believe in Christ. But as different beliefs about Christ began to emerge, the church began to attempt to determine what was necessary to believe about Christ - that he was raised from the dead on the third day? That he was the Son of God? That he was God incarnate? As correct beliefs were determined, and codified by ecumenical councils of bishops, some of those who considered themselves Christians were regarded by the mainstream church as effectively in the category of “other religions.” (Arius, Pelagius, etc.)

In the 14 centuries between the writing of the New Testament and the Protestant Reformation, Christian doctrine was based on a combination of the Scriptures, creeds, certain councils, the writings of respected church fathers, and the teachings of church leaders. The nearly unanimous consensus of these authorities was that salvation is found exclusively not just through belief in Christ, but through membership in the Church. Thus, it has taught that salvation is available only to members of the Christian community who adhere to the official doctrine of the Bible, the creeds and the councils, and participate in the sacraments. Thus those who considered themselves Christians but were excommunicated from the Church and her sacraments (such as Arius and Pelagius) were believed to be excluded from salvation as well.

The “no salvation outside the church” view was primarily based on the concept, developed by theologians over the centuries, that divine grace is conveyed through the sacraments.

With the Protestant Reformation, many Christians began to believe that salvation is possible - and perhaps even more probable - outside the fold of the Catholic Church. However, it was still generally held that one must be a Christian, and adhere to certain core beliefs, to have hope of heaven.

http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/beliefs/other_religions.htm

The Christian intolerance is so extreme that even a website like religioustolerance.com has to expose it:

Of the many thousands of essays on this web site, we regard those in this section to be among the most important.

Almost everywhere else in our essays dealing with Christianity, we compare conservative and liberal Christian points of view. This essay is different. Here, we compare various events in the Bible with current secular and religious standards of morality. This section lists many events in the Bible that are immoral by today’s secular standards, including: genocide, murder of people for their religious beliefs, mass murder of innocent children, etc. They are sometimes called “hard passages” because they seem to portray God as behaving in a way that would be considered highly immoral by most people today.

The purpose and intent of this section is to show there are some profoundly violent, immoral and unethical passages in the Bible when it is compared to today’s secular and religious ethical systems. These passages are casting Christianity and Judaism a bad light. They are causing many potential Christians and Jews to reject the Bible, and may be contributing to the legitimization of violence throughout the culture.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/imm_bibl.htm

Religious intolerance among conservative Christians:

A few conservative Christians have made statements that categorize other religious groups as evil, degenerate, sub-human and/or hated by God. Some examples are:

A former Southern Baptist president told two large meetings recently that God does not listen to the prayers of a Jew.
A Baptist minister in Texas has allegedly called for the mass murder of Wiccans by napalm.
An Evangelical minister explained that there are two groups in the world: the children of God (those who are saved), and the children of the devil (everyone else).
Another stated that New Age beliefs are another attempt by Satan to pollute Christianity, promote immorality and foster unethical attitudes.
Still another stated that non-Christians hate God, love sin, and don’t care whether anyone is struggling with sin or not.
A prominent televangelist called for the round up and extermination of all Wiccans by the U.S. Federal government.
Buddhism, Hinduism and other Eastern religions have frequently been described as variations of Satanism.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/relintol2.htm

It is thus blatantly obvious that Christianity preaches intolerance. According to Christian doctrines I am a heathen satanic worshipper who is condemned to hell and eternal damnation. I am a despicable creature who is hated by god. This doctrine that Christianity teaches has manifestd in history as crusades, colonialism, witch-trials and slavery.

Why are you defending something so morally backwards and reprehensible?

The strength of assertions are reflected in the forum choosed to express them. It is easier to be a Saint surrounded by angels than to maintain holiness in Hell.

Tony you are giving us nothing but rhetoric now.

Why don’t you just admit it Christianity is a primitive and morally backwards religion? How can you deny the blatant fact that Christianity preaches intolerance for all other religions has historically butchered them in cold blood?

I am glad to hear that about the possibility of good Christians. Some curious quotations there, esp. the lead off which could be spoken by any enlightened being. You also get no argument from me that religious institutions can be intolerant. All I believe Jesus said was Love and his example was one of inclusion. Blessed are the peacemakers… I also can’t believe , albeit based on little knowledge, that the Hindu religion as an institution has no intolerance- how about Hindu women ? I have seen some Indian made movies that depict a sad plight politically even today. Any institution is liable to intolerance by it’s nature.

My rhetoric is trying to say you guys are not honest- you are chicken- you crow here but if the strength of your desire to assert against lies were strong you’d go in person to Churches , synogogues and Mosques, This is weak-kneed. Tell me how you exhibit your courage under actual fire. These bullets are cyber soft. Quit pitching a fit in protected place- do it where you can put something on the line that involves courage. Jesus said Love and some understand that . some don’t

All I believe Jesus said was Love and his example was one of inclusion.

Nope, exclusion:

“Then Jesus told them, 'Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” (John 20:29)

“I [Jesus] am the way and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” (John 14:6)

“Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.” (Mark 16:15-16) {1}

Jesus taught he was the only way, life and the truth and that only accepting him will lead to salvation otherwise one is condemned to eternal damnation. I can read you know? :wink:

“This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.” (Ro 3:22)

I do not have faith in Jesus Christ, according to your bible I have no righteousness from god and god hates me.

Tony:

What Jesus said may be interpreted in many ways and your variety of tolerant Christianity is certainly one way of doing it. But would you say that that is the general perception of Christianity?

> Would most Christians say that Jesus was not the ONE TRUE WAY to salvation?
> Would most Christians agree that idolatry and pagan practices (of the Hindu variety) are okay?
> Would most Christians be okay with a Hindu being a Hindu and not try to convert him or her to their “true” path?

My experience has brought me into contact with many kinds of Christians, but the overpowering sentiment that drives the Church is still the exclusivist one. Just my opinion, based on my experience.

But it is very clear for anyone who can read that it not just a mere interpretation, Christianity the religion, including the bible blatantly says that those who do not accept Jesus are condemned to hell. It blatantly says in the ten commandments accepting any other god than Yaweh or making any kind of image or idol of him is a breach of the ten commandments and is punishable with death.

So if for a Christian it says very blatantly in their bible that idol worshippers and other religions are condemned creatures who god hates and that one of the punishments is death for them, does it surprise at all that in history the Church has directly ordained massacre of pagans?

On Hinduism and tolerance from the same website religioustolerance.com

Hinduism has a deserved reputation of being highly tolerant of other religions. Hindus have a saying: “Ekam Sataha Vipraha Bahudha Vadanti,” which may be translated: “The truth is One, but different Sages call it by Different Names”

There are no conversion doctrines in Hinduism and history of crusades or inquisitions. In fact Hinduism has been the most tolerant religion on the planet. Why? The answer is obvious it is a more civilised and morally developed religion than Christianity.

Facts are facts.

[QUOTE=Sarvamaṅgalamaṅgalā;60495]I do not understand, you want us to allow misinformation about yoga to continue so that you can feel more peaceful inside?[/QUOTE]

:lol:

That is the most funniest thing I have read for a long time :lol:

So true as well. So all of us on this forum should not challenge the myths about Yoga and not present the facts, just so that people like Tony can feel at peace HAHA

I was reading Amir’s babbling here again and was tempted to do another Amir buster, but there is no need for it. By now more than half the readers know he speaks nonsense and has delusions of Buddhahood.

His points can simply be boiled down to one argument or rather fallacy: appeal to mysticism. Amir likes to fog everything up with mists of mystery “truth is inexpressible” and “only one can be directly know is the truth” or “this and that is limited” But the irony is, and it is a hilarious irony, he contradicts everything he says in every post, sometimes in the same paragraph! Take one of his latest statements, “Truth cannot be spoken” and vimoh said what I thought when I read that, “Then sir what have you been speaking so far” I was thinking more along the lines of, “Then everything you have been speaking so far is lies then is it?” :smiley:

Amir claims he makes no assumption, has no opinions and only speaks that which is a direct emanation from truth. It comes to his direct experience he says./ But as I showed earlier Amir has made several statements which were false. Note I exposed those statements three times - and three times he did not respond. Why? Because he knows he is a faker(not fakir)

The truth is Vimoh again put it so succiently: he is an arrogant man who thinks he is spiritually superior to everybody else and everything he says is an emanation from truth and the universe. I called it narcissistic personality disorder earlier(look it up online, the symptoms are a near perfect match)

Mystics in general though are walking-talking contadictions. They say things like “Truth is not expressible” but then does that mean whenever they speak they are expressing lies? They say the “self does not exist” then is it OK for me to take away the house they live in, after all there is no possessor to possess it so it cannot be their possession? They say “all is equal and one” does that mean their mouth is equal and one with the anus? :smiley:

Don’t take the mystic argument seriously. How can one take an argument seriously where the arguer themselves contadicts it.

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;60556]I was reading Amir’s babbling here again and was tempted to do another Amir buster, but there is no need for it.[/QUOTE]

Correct, there is no need for it since one should approach conclusions through direct experience of the highest truth not the belief or blind faith others speak or write.

Surya,

“Amir likes to fog everything up with mists of mystery”

It is not that I like to fog everything with mystery, Truth is a mystery. Even to say that Truth is a mystery is to miss the mark, it appears as a mystery to the intellect, because the intellect cannot grasp it. It is something that is to be realized only through a burning testimony of silence. In that silence, there is nothing mysterious, nothing ordinary, when a Buddha sees into a Buddha, there is no room even for a single thought to stand as a barrier between you and yourself.

“Take one of his latest statements, “Truth cannot be spoken” and vimoh said what I thought when I read that, “Then sir what have you been speaking so far””

All of these words are just a finger pointing to the moon, indicating towards the space.

“Then everything you have been speaking so far is lies then is it?”

Yes.

“But as I showed earlier Amir has made several statements which were false. Note I exposed those statements three times - and three times he did not respond.”

I do not respond to your statements because you are just interested in the game of argument for argument’s sake, nor do I consider you to possess a sincere interest in yoga, nor do I consider you one who is capable of being involved in the work towards one’s awakening. Though you may deny it - but inwardly one knows or does not know very well whether you are truly interested, or just entertaining oneself on an ego-trip.

“The truth is Vimoh again put it so succiently: he is an arrogant man who thinks he is spiritually superior to everybody else”

I do not believe in the very idea of superiority or inferiority, which are just projections of the intellect. On the contrary, it is yourself who believes in these ideas - that Hinduism is superior, that the West is inferior, that a Buddha has to become superhuman and possess miraculous powers which are beyond the capabilities of the ordinary man, that a yogi must become a “God”, and all kinds of things which are just excuses for nourishment of your ego. If everything arises out of one and the same original nature, then where does the question of comparison, of inferiority and superiority arise ? The sun emanates it’s light to everything in it’s path, nourishing both weeds and flowers alike.

If one realizes his Buddha-nature, that does not mean he is superior to anybody. On the contrary, because he recognizes that the same nature pervades all, it brings him into communion with all.

“and everything he says is an emanation from truth and the universe.”

There is nothing which is not a direct expression of truth or the universe. Either you are in wakeful communion with things from moment to moment, or you are sleepwalking, that is the only difference. What I am saying is a direct expression of my own true nature - you may like it or dislike it, it is irrelevant. And that does not make me special, it is just that I have done the necessary work that is needed to come to my present state of being. Because you have not done the work that is needed, you have missed the opportunity.

“Don’t take the mystic argument seriously. How can one take an argument seriously where the arguer themselves contadicts it”

In order to say that which cannot be said, remain absolutely silent. Become as soft as water, and you can overwhelm even the most rigid. To come to know of the highest height, you will have to come to know of the deepest depth. To come to know of your liberation, you will have to come to know of your bondage. Things are, and yet they are not simultaneously. Things are independent and yet interrelated. To come to a kind of resurrection, you will have to die and die completely.

These things all appear as contradictory to the intellect. They have to be. Because those statements which come a bit closer to things as they are have to appear as contradictions - simply because they are not following your one-sided patterns of intellect. Intellect is useful, but dangerous if you do not understand it’s limitations. And this is the basic insight of all of the awakened ones, that a new kind of sense which is beyond your ordinary sense has to become awakened. That is what it means to awaken your “third eye”. It means a totally different way of perception has become available to your which is not of your ordinary perception - a new way of seeing which is not of your ordinary way of seeing.

Surya,

“So true as well. So all of us on this forum should not challenge the myths about Yoga and not present the facts,”

If you mean by “presenting the facts”, something historical or cultural, then yes you can present some facts as they are written in a book. But the fact is that Yoga itself is a method for the expansion of consciousness, it is an inner process. And what this inner process is, cannot be contained in any book, although descriptions have been written about it. To know it, you will have to see it. To see it, you will have to practice the method. Until then - you could not even have a glimmer of understanding of what the yogis have realized. And that is the very source of “yoga” - it has been born directly of the “spirit”, of coming to know oneself, through and through. Man’s desire to come to know of his true nature, and doing certain experiments to investigate into his being, is the origin of yoga. These “experiments” were discovered, not through tradition, but through scientific trial and error.

If one cannot even understand something basic - that before you can start speaking about something scientific, you will first have to discover it, and that discovery has nothing to do with tradition, then you are going to remain in the prison of the shoebox of Hinduism, which so far you have contaminated your understanding with in so many different ways, and has only helped you become more deeply conditioned.

vimoh,

"Sarva is merely making a case for the historical roots of Yoga. You make it a debate about experience (which you may or may not have and is therefore unverifiable) and dismiss all written accounts as being of no significance. These records, by the way, are verifiable. But you won’t go there since it is too much work, no?

As I said, arbitrary distinctions. Your entire line of reasoning boils down to, “I am superior spiritually. I am awesome. I can’t be bothered with books and reading. You are stupid for insisting on history.”

And all this, you say, while continuing to pretend that you are not attached to this debate. Pursuit of the spiritual shouldn’t be had at the cost of one’s worldly dharma. If that had been the case, people would not be expected to marry, and live lives as citizens of their countries. Worldly life comes with its own burdens. India’s classical history is full of accounts of people who let go of their lives to go meditate in the forest. Not because they had delusions of Buddha-hood, but because they did not have the balls to carry out their worldly dharma"

I have already investigated deeply into Hinduism, the history of India, the history of yoga, otherwise I would not be speaking of the matter. And what I have stated are all facts - “Hinduism” is not somethign fixed and rigid, and there are as many different opinions, philosophies, and interpretations as you can imagine. You are treated it like a static thing. And all of these philosophies and interpretations - which are under the name of “Hinduism” - are none other than projections of the mind. Samhkhya with it’s dualism, Advaita with it’s non-dualism, the philosophy which has grown out of Patanjali’s Classical Yoga,Charvaka’s with their atheistic and materialist philosophy, Shivaism with their emphasis on Shiva, Shaktism with their emphasis on Shakti, the various schools of Tantra, the philosophies of the Nath yogis, the idealist schools which declare that everything is mind, the philosophy of the avadhuta’s who rejected all forms of social and traditional convention, and you can go on and on about all of the different things that have happened in “Hinduism”. And all that I am saying is something very logical - seeing all of these differences while the Truth is one, these are all projections of the mind. The mind by nature is incapable of seeing into the Truth, it can only offer an interpretation of truth. Out of this, a thousand and one differnet belief systems and philosophies have been born.

"“As I said, arbitrary distinctions. Your entire line of reasoning boils down to, “I am superior spiritually. I am awesome. I can’t be bothered with books and reading. You are stupid for insisting on history.””

If you want to limit it just simply to borrowed knowledge, I have done much research on the subject, that is why I am speaking about it. And I have agreed - the Hindus did discover the technology of yoga. But that does not mean yoga is Hindu anymore than electricity is American.

No, I have never said that I am spiritually superior and you are just repeating what Surya has said like a parrot. If I have stated such a thing, you should quote it. I have stated I have come to my awakening - which is entirely different. Because you may be an egoist, you may see “awakening” as some kind of superior state. I do not see it as superior, nor do I see being asleep as inferior. That one state is better than the other is your own hallucination, and reflects deep down your own prejudice that to be awakened is superior. Deep down, you yourself would also like to reach such a superior state of being, that is why you have immediately assumed that if one has come to his awakening, then it means he is superior.

Sarva,

“If you are going to claim that yoga is a science, please back it up with academic research to verify this. You can’t, because the subject matter of yoga is beyond science and in the domain of Sanatana Dharma.”

When I say that yoga is a science, that does not mean I am saying that it has anything to do with modern science. Modern science is not the inventor of the scientific approach, that was discovered centuries ago through methods for the expansion of consciousness. And what you are calling “Dharma” is going to be different according to your interpretation. If you are a Buddhist - you have a certain idea as to what that word means, because they have a different interpretation of the nature of things. If you are a Hindu, it is the same. If you are a Jain, it is the same. And moreso, the word “Dharma” itself refers to the truth of the whole existence, and that is nobody’s property. Whether man is alive or dead, the Truth is Truth. Even if the whole humanity disappears, and it will one day, the Truth remains. Even if the whole existence collapses back into it’s original state, then too the Truth remains.

Sanatana Dharma, the “eternal law”, is not something Hindu. Hindus have been speaking about it, trying to interpret it, but what they are speaking about is not Hindu. If you insist that “Sanatana Dharma” refers to the tradition of Hinduism rather than something that is realized out of enlightenment itself, then you should remember that “Hinduism” does not refer to a single philsoophy, nor does it have a single philosophy, nor does it have a single belief system, although some may treat it as such out of their identification with what that word means. If one says that Hinduism is the Sanatana Dharma, the statement is more or less meaningless. Hinduism does not even have a founder, and consists of diverse traditions which are as numerous as one can imagine.

I have some experience with Christians living in the West and I’ve already written here about the ones I know and their belief about inclusiveness ( Remember the faith in a match story ? ) Religion is like politics , most people vote for a candidate based on perceived notions derived by looking at his face and seeing how he treats people. They don’t do a lot of analysis. I can agree that the Bible has many intolerant passages but I don’t necessarily agree that they were actually said by Jesus. I love the little children one and I can’t figure out why you don’t. As I wrote about a zillion words ago, to me it’s dogmatic to need proof of an actual Jesus ; it’s enough for me to have the idea of a life based on love and healing. The self-sacrifice thing is cathartic and apparently necessary for most since it’s in so many diverse cultures. Institutional religion very often serves politics , sometimes subtly, and you have me wrong if you think I’d like you to shut up because I disagree with you and it upsets me. I’d like you to shut up because you ( we ) are talking too much ad nauseum to no avail. Wasting time, ours and others, and providing by our attitudes a very bad example of a life tuned to yoga. I am sorry I ever wrote anything down here. I hope I have better things to do. It is a beautiful day and I’ve done very little asana. I hope my ujayi will wash my mind clear of your diatribes.

I can agree that the Bible has many intolerant passages but I don't necessarily agree that they were actually said by Jesus.

Tony,

They may or they may not have been. It is impossible to say what it is which Jesus had been teaching. To know - the only way is to have been there directly to witness the man. Even if one is there as a direct witness, the moment the words touch ones ears, the message has already been contaminated with interpretation. It is safe to assume that the original teaching is something which is lost in eternity, and the same is the case with Gautama Buddha. Nobody knows precisely what it is which Gautama Buddha was teaching, they only have second hand reports and in many cases, inventions about his teaching. The Hinayana school declared that they know the original teaching of Buddha, the Mahayana school also declared the same, and both were equally convinced. And much of what is known asBuddhism` has little to do with Gautama Buddha - but is a long string of ideas and approaches which have been developed according to the teachings of the life of the man in several scriptures. But like Jesus - to know of the original teaching, you should have been there to directly witness the man.

When I speak of Jesus Christ, I am not interested at all in the historical Jesus, I am commenting about the Jesus as he is reported in the New Testament. If one is referring to that character, then I can only conclude that the man was completely asleep. There may have been a Jesus which was awakened, but that Jesus of the Bible is just a delusional fanatic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad_vs._McWorld I’d mentioned this before- very expansive view- America is far down this road and religious tolerance is mostly because we don’t care enough about religion to get our minds off buying stuff- we look this other direction and give an oblique nod to religion. ( I can imagine that’s a reason I don’t care much for details and discourse about it )There is a necessary antithetical reaction but it looks like a losing fight and the most we can hope for is some human touches from the Mass culture. I doubt India , with it’s teeming population and democracy , can hold out significantly, against Mass culture. Religion won’t rule the future and we are discussing arcane matters, at least as far as the intolerance of the Abrahamic religions- Mass culture means inclusion.So that may be the reason so many are tolerant though a literal reading of the bible may not be( read the article ) We are not Christians or Hindus, we are all consumers. We are not the Christians to militant Islamists, we are the consumers. Do you want to keep discussing how many angels fit on the head of a pin while Columbus is killing Native Americans ?