Hello, friends. I look forward to joining your sangha and getting to know you. I’ve been reading through this thread and found great wisdom here:
[QUOTE=TonyTamer;59624]Zen may say that yoga is the gate to the house; the house is the Way. There are other gates to the same house.[/QUOTE]
I will now also attempt to transform into a beach ball 
magic can be just a science we don’t understand and picasso would have loved to reach the level of cave drawings- he said so himself, as he transformed himself and the art world by learning from ’ primitive’ African art. You are laser-beam focused Surya which shows power but not necessarily discrimination. Love the name Cyd-artha. Sorry Charlie, I threw away the lifeline.
Reaching the level of cavedrawings is not exactly difficult:
However, reaching the level of modern art for somebody like me who is ignorant of art is:
Very difficult, would take me a few years of practice, if not a decade or more.
Come on lets not for the sake of maintaining relativism become anti-intellectual. It is clear that art has come a long way since caveman days.
?All children are artists. The problem is how to remain an artist once he grows up. ?~Pablo Picasso
?Art is a lie that makes us realize truth? ~Pablo Picasso
Surya Deva you need to study art with the same relish as you do the Vedas. You don’t understand. And that begs the question: can you understand the Vedas if you don’t understand Art. I was told, when I was proud of my latent art abilities found at age 50, by someone who knew art, " Yeah, you’re at that stage where you think you have to draw every nose hair " and he was right. Picasso, who had the advantage of all that came before him and the best art teachers around was able to draw photographically at a young age but he didn’t shake any body up until the World’s Fair in Paris when he saw an exhibition of African art. To someone without understanding this was primitive, barely skilled. Picasso saw it for what it was, a new frontier in the imagination of man- abstracted forms- he also saw the cave art for what it was- miracles of art with primeval colors of red , white and black, colors that resonate in our archetypal minds and representative forms in stone- no do overs. The simple silence of an ancient rishi is more potent and resonant of larger life than all of our quibbling. I predict that most of us here if we see this in 10 years, this bunch of quibbling we are doing here, we’ll be embarassed. Especially me because I am especially thin-skinned. Namaste
Pietro,
“After analyzing everything and watching carefully the values that I identify in each culture, the values from the Vedas stand out the most for me“
Because one is not functioning out of ones own spontaneous and natural intelligence, one needs to cling to somebody or something elses values as a substitute. In your sentence you have mentioned a word which is of great significance to make oneself more aware of ones present situation. You have said that you identify with the values of the Vedas. That is precisely all that it is, an identification of the mind which you have formed because something has appealed to you. If it is a matter of what one finds appealing, then just about any set of values can be adopted. And the fact is that no amount of borrowed values is ever going to function as a substitute for ones own natural intelligence. Life is not a static thing, it is dynamic, in a constant state of flux. And if one is to be in harmony with this stream of change, then one cannot live life according to any fixed patterns. Situations are always changing, circumstances are always changing, the context of things are always changing - and one is going to have to respond according to the moment rather than according to some fixed set of values. This is not something that can be learned from the Vedas, or any scripture. It is only something that can be understood through a direct encounter with life itself, but it requires you to approach life with a certain amount of attention and mindfulness.
Tony,
“magic can be just a science we don’t understand“
That depends on what you mean by magic. If one means the fanciful imagination of transcending the laws of nature, such a thing is just ones own imagination. But if one means a method for awakening certain inner states of consciousness which are capable of influencing both inner and outer forces of nature, that is a totally different matter.
[QUOTE=AmirMourad;59724]Pietro,
“After analyzing everything and watching carefully the values that I identify in each culture, the values from the Vedas stand out the most for me“
Because one is not functioning out of ones own spontaneous and natural intelligence, one needs to cling to somebody or something elses values as a substitute. In your sentence you have mentioned a word which is of great significance to make oneself more aware of ones present situation. [B]You have said that you identify with the values of the Vedas. That is precisely all that it is, an identification of the mind which you have formed because something has appealed to you.[/B] If it is a matter of what one finds appealing, then just about any set of values can be adopted. And the fact is that no amount of borrowed values is ever going to function as a substitute for ones own natural intelligence. Life is not a static thing, it is dynamic, in a constant state of flux. And if one is to be in harmony with this stream of change, then one cannot live life according to any fixed patterns. Situations are always changing, circumstances are always changing, the context of things are always changing - and one is going to have to respond according to the moment rather than according to some fixed set of values. This is not something that can be learned from the Vedas, or any scripture. It is only something that can be understood through a direct encounter with life itself, but it requires you to approach life with a certain amount of attention and mindfulness.[/QUOTE]
You are identifying with your [U]own[/U] intelligence (buddhi), if you had studied the vedas, you would not make such a blunder. Your posts on this forum are invasive, they have nothing to do with the subject people are discussing. It makes it impossible for others to have an intelligent discussion about anything. Please, talk to a professional about your delusion of grandeur, not on a discussion forum.
Tony, I think a lot of objective readers will note that in in terms of complexity, texture, skill, refinement etc the painting I posted of picasso is superior to the cave drawing. I am talking of objective characteristics here not subjective characteristics.
It is simply a fact that one thing can be more developed than another. A human brain is more developed than a chimps brain. A combustion engine is more developed than a fire. My current computer is more developed than my old Amstard 464. It appies just as equally in art as well. If it didn’t then why would you have art critics? If it was all just subjective then anybody could paint anything and everybody could be considered on same level of picasso. Alas, everything I have painted in art class at school was not considered even good enough for school display, let alone the national art gallery 
Surya,
“Shamanism have a description as scientific as the one I just expounded? Yet this is exactly what Vedic science describes“
No, there is nothing scientific about the million and one Gods which Hinduism has invented, of which their roles and functions have changed according to the imagination of man, or believing that the Brahmins have come from the mouth of Brahman while the untouchables come from the dirty feet of Brahman - or that the cow is a sacred animal which is special in some particular way, or that by performing animal sacrifices, which is an ancient Vedic custom, that one is somehow going to please the deities who will fulfill your desires. That Sanskrit is a divine language which has come from the Devas is not scientific either. The Brahmins are not the only one entertaining themselves with that delusion, the Jews also believe that Hebrew is a divine language which has come from the angels of God. Nor is there anything scientific in the minute detail that these Brahmins are obsessed with in performing every act of the ritual with tremendous accuracy. The fact is that if you are unconscious, simply functioning mechanically - then it does not matter what you do, your ritual is nothing more than the entertainment of a child. These Brahmins will not even move an inch away from the prescribed rituals, out of fear of deviating from the revelation of the divine scripture. That too, is unscientific, that the Vedas is a revelation from God. That is one of the reasons why so many other scriptures that have been born in India were not accepted by orthodox Hindus, particularly the Tantric scriptures, because they were not believed to be revelation. And in the midst of all this, you are saying that the Vedas is scientific ? Yes, there may be a few things here and there which are scientific. But I cannot agree that everything that has been stated is scientific, in fact most of it is just mans hallucination.
Sarva,
“You are identifying with your own natural intelligence“
If one was truly functioning out of ones own natural intelligence, there is no room for identification. A consciousness which is natural is a consciousness which is spontaneous, and spontaneity requires a mind which can function without attachment to what arises in the field of ones experience, which can remain a witness without clinging to the activity of the mind.
“Hindus are simply arguing that Yoga originated in Hinduism“
Those Hindus are just being dogmatic. Nothing ever originates in a tradition, a tradition is born out of something. Yoga has its origins not in Hinduism, but in the exploration of man himself. It was only once certain sages had come to certain discoveries, that they started speaking about it. As far as Yoga is concerned, no scripture is needed, no master is needed, all that is requires is for you to come to know yourself, through and through. Unless you understand this, you are as far away from understanding Yoga as possible.
Bryon,
“Saying that Yoga is not derived from Hinduism…is like saying that the Theory of Relativity is not derived from science.“
All of the things which the Theory of Relativity is talking about - do they have their roots in science or do they have their roots in existence itself ? If gravity has its roots in science, then if our scientific knowledge disappears, gravity will disappear. But that is not the case, even if there is not a single human being to organize scientific knowledge, gravity exists.
[QUOTE=AmirMourad;59731]“Hindus are simply arguing that Yoga originated in Hinduism“
Those Hindus are just being dogmatic. Nothing ever originates in a tradition, a tradition is born out of something. Yoga has its origins not in Hinduism, but in the exploration of man himself. It was only once certain sages had come to certain discoveries, that they started speaking about it. As far as Yoga is concerned, no scripture is needed, no master is needed, all that is requires is for you to come to know yourself, through and through. Unless you understand this, you are as far away from understanding Yoga as possible.[/QUOTE]
Bryon,
“Saying that Yoga is not derived from Hinduism…is like saying that the Theory of Relativity is not derived from science.“
All of the things which the Theory of Relativity is talking about - do they have their roots in science or do they have their roots in existence itself ? If gravity has its roots in science, then if our scientific knowledge disappears, gravity will disappear. But that is not the case, even if there is not a single human being to organize scientific knowledge, gravity exists.
Yoga is not an ontological concept, but a description of the practices that are based on Hindu philosophy and the philosophy of it religious offshoots which according to you are all false identifications. Yoga simply is completely meaningless, without its foundation laid down in the vedas and upanishads. Practicing yoga without understanding of its foundation is as useful as launching a rocket in space without a destination, just as counting would make no sense if there was no concept of number. If you don’t know where you are going, any road will take you there.
Amir, I am not going to engage your posts on India, Hinduism and Vedas again, because you know nothing about them. You have constantly embarrased yourself on this forum(in other areas well) whenever you opened your ignorant mouth to speak of this matter. You posted India was always a poor country in the “Clash of civilisations threads” I then showed you not only was it not always poor, it was the richest country up until the 18th century. Guess what? You stopped posting there. Now you have made another blunder:
believing that the Brahmins have come from the mouth of Brahman while the untouchables come from the dirty feet of Brahman
If I were you I would be embarrased after what I am about to reveal. “The untouchables” did not come from Brahman’s feet - it was the shudras. The shudras are not the same as untouchalbles they are the labour class in society who serve all. The untouchables is not mentioned in the Vedas, they appear in much later Indian society and were called chandalas.
Moreover, if you can’t notice that the Vedic hymn is using a metaphor to describe how the world spirit divided itself into the four classes of society - from the head came the brahmana because this is the area of speech and intellect, from the arms came from the kshatriyas because this is the area of strength, from the thighs came the vaisyas because this is the area of activity and motion, and from the feet came the shudas because this is the area of the foundation of the body by which it remains upright - then you are an idiot.
Finally, I am referring to the Vedic science as enunciated in the formal schools of Hindu philosophy and science. Not to the scriptures such as the Upanishads and the Vedas. The difference is, if you knew anything, the formal schools do not use mythology or poetry - they are straight technical descriptions.
It is clear you speak from ignorance and yet you claim to be the Buddha himself and everything you say is an emanation of truth. You are full of it. Even a fool knows when to shut up.
Does yoga science say we are more developed than those that wrote the Vedas because we have come latest ? By your reckoning the Mona Lisa is as plain as the smile that plays upon her lips. There are many pictures nowadays with so much more than that nuanced smile, isn’t there ? I am an ignorant son-of-a gun but I am not so ignorant that I don’t know I’m ignorant. As Socrates said, " God only is wise ", a mantra to be intoned before blogging here on yoga forums, Namaste
Tony,
This is becoming silly now. If you cannot concede such a simple point that a picasso is not more developed than a caveman drawing or even a stickman drawing of a 3 year old, then no reasonable discussion can ensue. If we thought like you did, we would have remained in caveman days.
The Vedic ethic is very different. Aspire towards perfection. Work very hard in life if you want to achieive anything. Do not become complacent with small gains, but strive for the infinite - keep going till you get there. This is why we have perfected languages, perfected music, perfected poerty and perfected science. We do not settle for the mediocre.
According to Hinduism we evolve through innumerable lower life forms from germs before we attain human form. Are we relativist about this? Heck no, a human form is definitely a superior form and considered a rare opportunity. If you want to come back as a house fly - be my guest.
You are correct. This is silly. I have only said to you what Picasso himself said about this and if you can’t concede the simple point that you don’t judge everything egocentrically then no reasonable discussion can ensue. We are not perfecting music . languages or poetry ( are you saying that the sanskrit obtained by the rishis through deep meditation is less than the language we speak today ? ) We are meeting the challenges of our circumstances not evolving a perfect life form. Darwin said exactly this. What amazes me is that you can not see that you are as dumb as the rest of us and are trying desperately to seem intelligent. We are ants ( according to old hindu fable ) crawling on the leg of an elephant expounding on what we crawl on- not having a clue. I believe yoga science will enable us to climb higher ( or at least feel good about climbing ) but further than that I will not say since it is beyond me and my understanding at this point.
We are not perfecting music . languages or poetry ( are you saying that the sanskrit obtained by the rishis through deep meditation is less than the language we speak today ? ) We are meeting the challenges of our circumstances not evolving a perfect life form. Darwin said exactly this. What amazes me is that you can not see that you are as dumb as the rest of us and are trying desperately to seem intelligent. We are ants ( according to old hindu fable ) crawling on the leg of an elephant expounding on what we crawl on- not having a clue.
I know you guys are not as in Western civilisation.
As for us we already have a perfect language: Sanskrit. It is practially the equivalent of a machine language in how it is gramatically formed. Hence why it is called, Samskritam, “perfectly formed”
This reason why you failed to develop something like Sanskrit, Yoga, Vedanta, Ayurveda or complex systems like Indian music and drama, is because your cultural ethos does not aim for obtaining perfect knowledge, but rather how to maximise your comforts. Hence, why in science many important fields like parapsychology are given little priority and funding because they do little to produce comfort. You do not aim for completition or perfection of knowledge. This is why your you are still following a religion from a primitive desert culture 3000 years ago and why social and scientific progress is very slow in your civilisation. However, technology develops very fast, again because your modus operandi is comfort - so your emphasis is on technology.
It is not surprising why you would debate with me over something as basic as asserting a piccaso painting is more advanced than a caveman drawing or a stickman drawing of a three year old, because you lack a scientific mindset that cannot dispassionately examine something quantitatively and qualitatively and assess what grade is at. You allow emotion, mysticism, ideology, contemplating - subjectivity - to cloud your judgement. While somebody like me has no problem calling a spade a spade because of my objective and scientific mindset, somebody like you will cloud and muddy everything.
We can see you are doing this with such a simple matter like refusing to acknowledge a basic point a modern picasso painting is more developed than a 30,000 year old caveman drawing. So does it surprise you cannot call Hinduism a religion whose main ethic is non violence to all living beings, including plants and recognising the divine in everybody and everything and which recognises the right of all to form their own views with a religion whose ethics condemn every non-Christian and condemns them to eternal damnation and forces conformity.
What do you want me to say? Hinduism and Christianity are just different and beautiful in their own way? Never! I will never sacrifice my honesty and objectivity. It is clear to any objective and honest person Christianity is not even in the same league as Hinduism. If you had methods of your own via which you can reach spiritual realization, you would not be desperately trying to appropriate Yoga today. The truth is clear all along our religion was right and yours was wrong. We were communing with the divine and exploring the higher realities - while you were blindly following a superstitious desert religion and going around spreading death and destruction.
By the way when I say “you” I am referring to Western civilisation as it is today, corrupted with the Abrahamic ethos. Do you actually know the original religion of Western civilisation is not Christianity, but Hinduism? The original religion you guys followed was Proto-Indo-Euopean which is none other than the Vedic religion i.e., Hinduism.
Do your research you will find the ancestors of your people were Hindu - we share the same language family, the same mythology and same culture. Celtic society was little different to Vedic society for instance and had similar ethos. You will find that the day you call Christmas and made to believe it was the birthday of Jesus is an absolute lie. It is actually the supposed birthday of a Vedic god Mithra.
Christianity was forced on us from the Asura civilisation of the Middle East. The primitive desert culture. The original Europeans and we Hindus are from the same family. We Hindus invite you back to your ancesteral religion. Reject this Christianity.
