Truth about yoga (a article for discussion)

Yoga Discussion General Yoga
#181

I think yaram needs to prove he is a not a troll and apologise to sarva for calling his post where he mentions the use of yoga practices used in Vedic temple rituals, “crap of first order, true lies”

Shell Mudra

Encircle the your thumb with the four fingers of your right hand. At the same time, touch the

right thumb to the extended middle finger of your left hand. Together, the two hands look
like a conch shell. Hold your hands in front of your sternum. Do this as often and as long
as you want. Or use it three times daily for 15 minutes as a course of treatment.

When you want to practice this mudra, chant “OM” several tunes. Then listen within yourself, to the silence, for several minutes afterward. This mudra is used during rituals in many Hindu temples. There, the conch horn is blown in the morning to announce the opening of the temple doors. The same applies to our inner temple, in which the divine light shines–it should also be opened. The Shell Mudra drives away every kind of problem in the throat. It also has a very calming effect and leads to collection in silence.

http://www.crystallotus.com/Mudras/9mudra.htm

An except from a book on Hindu temple worship on google books: Click here

Hindu temple rituals have historically incorporated pranayama, mantra chanting, mudras and even asanas. The Agama class of literature give highly detailed instruction on temple construction, temple rituals and Yoga practices.

#182

No apology is necessary. I am by no means an expert on temple worship or vedic rituals, but most orthodox Hindus perform daily rituals whith these practices integrated. I also do daily rituals with these elements: pranayama, mudra (before and after japa, during sankalpa, offering food to deities with mudras that signify the pancha pranas etc), chakra dhyana, dharana, kriya (combining japa with pranayama), asana (padmasana, brahmasana, uttanasana, standing on toes, shastanga vandana). I am sure a learned priest could tell more about the yogic elements in worship. Actually a Hindu ritual is all yogic, but these are elements that the unitiated could recognise as “yoga.”

Thanks for posting that link, it’s a good resource for mudras.

#183

Surya,

No, the Egyptians did not adopt the practices nor the belief systems of the Hindus, and their approach to the expansion of consciousness, as well as their belief systems, was quite different. Their approach had less to do with meditation or preparation for meditation, and far more to do with a combination of astrology, architecture, geometry, and magic. The same was the case for the Greeks, they were not practicing meditation, they were theurgists. Some Greeks even used to worship Egyptian deities, and some of the deities became later transformed into Greek deities. The cult of Isis was quite popular in Delphi and Eleusis. The cult of Osiris was so popular, that the Egyptians even invented a God for the Greeks which were visited Egypt which was called Apis, which later became Serapis which replaced Osiris in the temples which were not Egyptian. Thoth, the Egyptian deity of writing and magic, which symbolized the collective intelligence of all of the forces of nature, was combined with Hermes and became Hermes Trismegistus. The influence of the Egyptians upon the Greeks is far more so than that of India, and the methods that the mystic Greeks were exploring into were largely inherited from the Egyptians.

Rather than turning the energy of the mind and senses inwards onto themselves, they can be stimulated as a means to trigger heightened states of consciousness. That is why most of those methods focus far more on using external aids to awaken different states of consciousness. This is possible in a way which is not different than hypnosis - all that is needed is to create an association in the unconscious between a symbol and an idea. By stimulating different parts of the unconscious, it is possible to bring about a transformation. The yogic sciences make use of the same principle, with each chakra center is connected a particular mantra, yantra, deity, and so on. The Vedic ritualism also works according to the same phenomenon, as well as much of the rituals of Tantra. The use of symbols by themselves, are useless - but when there is a link that is created in the mink between a symbol and an idea, they become tools for transformation. The only difference between the approach of theurgy and that of meditation is that theurgy does not involve a cutting off of the stream of the senses, but stimulates the senses.

#184

Amir,

What we are talking here of is Yoga. Show me ancient Egyptian writings which contain Yogic teachings either by linking them or giving me their names. Yes, I am calling your bluff.

#185

The undercurrents of violence are evident in the language of some posts here. I tend to agree with AmirMourad, that this goes beyond a nominal adherence to a religion and resides in the individual man. Man makes a religion out of dominating his neighbor; the Christian wars like the crusades were not just about religion. Remember the Pope at that time was a political power. Polytheistic religions have dressed up land grabs with religious fervor too and many have plundered their neighbor for sacrifice to appease their Gods while demeaning the God of their rivals. AmirMourad said it well: it goes deeper than religion. It is not fair to me to say I don’t care about bad things that happen in India etc. if I didn’t know about it- sorry- I recognize limits to what I know or can know. And history books are my favorite read- reading about 17th century Japan now. I read mostly ancient history. I have read some Gibbons, Toynbee, the Durants, Kenneth Clark ( loved his Civilisation ), Montaigne, William Irwin Thompson and others, I was only 11 credit hours away from a teaching degree with a B.A. in History. Academically it doesn’t reach your level Bryon, but as I have said here , History is more for contemplation- at least it is with me. Being an expert in history, much as I love it , is like being an expert on smoke. It is written from disputed points of view and the best you can do is listen to those written down, find artifacts etc, apply reason you hope considers everything and then realize you are pointing in the dark. What explains the bad things in this world like the missionaries in India, if they are bad- I don’t know-I’ll have to take your word on it , sarva…, is what a Columbia History professor 's ( Wallace ? ) essay said, called ,Jihad vs. McDonaldism, it’s not the religions but the cultures of Western mass-produced culture trying to dominate more tribal oriented culture that shape the world today. The missionaries may be like King Leopold II’s missionaries to the Congo and just a front line for the soldiers. I don’t know- I do care about the bad that happens but I don’t know about individual cases. whether they are good or bad. I know that Hinduism is not perfectly adhered to either. I know that many religions have base beginnings . I believe this about the Abrahamic religions without knowing for sure but I believe that Jesus represents the flowering of Old Testament crowning that fear with love. Yoga is about union . Lord Krishna tells Arjuna it is enough to follow to the best of your ability where Life has placed you,The Best Christian in the world has little spiritual difference from the Best Hindu and the worst of both are also very close in spiritual quality. There are good and bad things to say about everybody but it makes a better world with more avenues open for union to believe in the better parts more than the bad parts, as the Sanskrit says Namaste.

#186

Hindus are simply arguing that Yoga originated in Hinduism and is integral to Hindism. We have overwhelming evidence to prove it. This is a sheer fact and by denying this you are getting nothing but our resentment.

You are muddying the waters by claiming Yoga is some universal knowledge every culture on this planet has including Christianity. Such a thought sounds nice, a common human spirituality shared by all and being revived again today - but it is fantasy not reality. There is is no “Western yoga” and never was. Yoga came from India and influenced the West both in ancient times with the Greeks and Egyptians and in modern times through the transmission of Sanskrit literature into Europe via the Arabs and persians. However, because the West were not friendly to this culture, it did not blossom in the West. In India not only did it not blossom, it evolved into a science.

In ancient times the first Yoga contact with the West lead to the development of Gnosticism and Neo-platonism. The Neo-platonists and gnostics do not deny they learned their knowledge from the Yoga of Hindus, they even state Pythagoras, Plato, Socrates all learned from the Hindus.

Indeed, there are phrases in the oldest treatises of the Trismegistic Hermetic literature which can be so closely paralleled with phrases in the Upaniṣhads and in the Bhagavad Gītā, that one is almost tempted to believe that the writers had some acquaintance with the general contents of these Brāhmanical scriptures. The Trismegistic literature had its genesis in Egypt, and its earliest deposit must be dated at least in the first century a.d., if it cannot even be pushed back earlier. Even more striking is the similarity between the lofty mystic metaphysic of the Gnostic doctor Basilides, who lived at the end of the first and beginning of the second century a.d., and Vedāntic ideas. Moreover, both the Hermetic and the Basilidean schools and their immediate predecessors were devoted to a stern self-discipline and deep philosophical study which would make them welcome eagerly any philosopher or mystic student who might come from the far East.

However difficult, therefore, it may be to prove, from unquestionably historical statements, any direct influence of Indian thought on the conceptions and practices of some of these religious communities and philosophic schools of the Gr?co-Roman Empire, and although in any particular case similarity of ideas need not necessarily be assigned to direct physical transmission, nevertheless the highest probability, if not the greatest assurance, remains that even prior to the days of Apollonius there was some private knowledge in Greece of the general ideas of the Vedanta and Dharma; while in the case of Apollonius himself, even if we discount nine-tenths of what is related of him, his one idea seems to have been to spread abroad among the religious brotherhoods and institutions of the Empire some portion of the wisdom which he brought back with him from India.

When, then, we find at the end of the first and during the first half of the second century, among such mystic associations as the Hermetic and Gnostic schools, ideas which strongly remind us of the theosophy of the Upaniṣhads or the reasoned ethics of the Suttas, we have always to take into consideration not only the high probability of Apollonius having visited such schools, but also the possibility of his having discoursed at length therein on the Indian wisdom. Not only so, but the memory of his influence may have lingered for long in such circles, for do we not find Plotinus, the coryph?us of Neo-Platonism, as it is called, so enamoured with what he had heard of the wisdom of India at Alexandria, that in 242 he started off with the ill-starred expedition of Gordian to the East in the hope of reaching that land of philosophy? With the failure of the expedition and assassination of the Emperor, however, he had to return, for ever disappointed of his hope.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/aot/aot/aot04.htm

India was called the land of philosophy by the Greeks. All Greek records admit they borrowed from us and ancient Greek philosophers had learned from the Hindus.

They had no problem admitting it because the Greeks were largely honest and sincere people and seekers of truth. It is only the Modern Christians who refuse to acknowledge it because they have an agenda.

#187

[QUOTE=yaram;59549]However, I must say, they are of no practical value and have some abstract concepts about gods and other things. Nothing of utility has come out of vedas.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=yaram;59536]P.S: I am Hindu and an Indian.[/QUOTE]

:rolleyes:

[QUOTE=Sarvamaṅgalamaṅgalā;59575]You are just exposing how little you know of vedic rituals and temple worship.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;59577]It is obvious you are a troll now. I even doubt you are Indian or Hindu.

If you are going to claim he is lying, and bear in mind you are telling a practicing Hindu person they are lying abou what they practice, then prove that he is lying.[/QUOTE]

Exactly.

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;59594]India was called the land of philosophy by the Greeks. All Greek records admit they borrowed from us and ancient Greek philosophers had learned from the Hindus.

They had no problem admitting it because the Greeks were largely honest and sincere people and seekers of truth. It is only the Modern Christians who refuse to acknowledge it because they have an agenda.[/QUOTE]

Exactly! If the west were to be the direct tradition from the Greeks now, East and West would be in full tune and the world would be awesome today.

#188

[QUOTE=JenniLeigh;59516]“While it may seem like a supremacy, it’s just common sense.”

Whether this is considered to be common sense or supremacy, no particular source of insight is more valuable than another. This is a religious debate, from which the origin of truth as remaining accessible without doctorine has been excluded. Truth extends beyond teaching of any kind.[/QUOTE]

Hello Jenni, I’d like to make clear that sometimes I use a less than appropriate term because thinking extrovertedly is not my strong point.

When I say common sense, I meant for myself. After analyzing everything and watching carefully the values that I identify in each culture, the values from the Vedas stand out the most for me. So yeah, they become common sense, because the whole process of judging already ocurred.

I’m not saying common sense that is obvious that the Vedas are superior because of some god-given superiority.

Personally I don’t even have to consider the Vedas, the Gita alone provides a lot of material that is lacking in most western systems, proper metaphysics, proper understanding of how material nature behaves in a practical way that can revolutionize how one faces everyday life.

Just to make my point clearer. :wink:

[QUOTE=JenniLeigh;59516]Whether this is considered to be common sense or supremacy, no particular source of insight is more valuable than another.[/QUOTE]

And that’s why, in my sole experience, think the Vedas are rich. Let’s imagine truth, as the purity of the water. One goes through a stream straight down, the other is contaminated by impurities along the way, like modifications for political motivation and everything that is historically documented about Christianity. One could access truth from the Christian stream, but it was already contaminated, therefore the process of filtering is necessary, more work on an already arduous path.

[QUOTE=JenniLeigh;59516]This is a religious debate, from which the origin of truth as remaining accessible without doctorine has been excluded. Truth extends beyond teaching of any kind.[/QUOTE]

I didn’t understand this.

#189

Pietro, your common sense is shared by dozens of physicists, nobel prize winners, intellectuals, poets, philosophers from the West itself.

I think you are in good company there :wink:

Hinduism is a religion for spiritually and scientifically advanced people. It is the religion that will become the religion of the people in the future(Schopenhauers words) Western people need to drop their attachments to Western-Abrahamic civilisation simply because they were born into it, and embrace Hindu-Dharmic civilisation, because it is vastly superior in every way, shape and form.

#190

“I didn’t understand this.”

Knowledge of the Vedas or Bhaghavad Gita, or any other body of knowledge can be useful, but this is unnecessary for becoming awakened or integrated.

#191

That was a great exposition of your point Surya Deva ! Very nice. Deepest regards to the Indian spiritual culture. Yoga is distinctly Indian, the principles and facts dealt with in yoga are universal. Like Physics or calculus. Without Newton , Leibnitz invented the latter. Like physics, the facts of Kundalini are there to be discovered. I’m sure Tai Chi wouldn’t be like it is without the transmission of yoga from India to China. Then they made it their own. Native Americans have their sweat lodges, fasting, prayer circles, medicine wheels etc. Pacific islanders have a spiritual culture that can put one in synchronicity with planetary vibrations. I have nothing but admiration for the spiritual culture of India, It is the Newton of spirituality. There are others with correlational development. But it’s not a competition. You get there or you haven’t yet. Hegel’s dialectic which is Thesis- Antithesis -Synthesis works well here. Abrahamic religions, like everyone else, are working things out. That dialectic could be Old Testament- New Testament - Unitarians, and then the synthesis becomes the new thesis. Swift’s Lilliputians were seen as beautiful yet the Giant people ( forgot their name ) were described as pockmarked and ugly. There’s a lesson. Taking a higher view makes all the mountains look like a rock ribbed family even if India has the honor of having the Himalayas.

#192

Spirituality isn’t a competition but posting about it can be. I think I will observe half-time in this ball game. Y’all take the ball. namaste

#193

[QUOTE=Sarvamaṅgalamaṅgalā;59523]Now one doesn’t need history to prove that yoga is Hindu, one can simply study the yoga shastras to make this conclusion.[/QUOTE]

Indeed. I’d like to know where these people think Yoga originated…if not in Hindu scripture. I mean, do they think that it was invented by hippies in the 1960s or something? I mean, where ELSE do they think it came from? It doesn’t even make any sense.

Interesting…and I had always thought you had to be a white person in order to be a white supremacist. Go figure…

[QUOTE=JenniLeigh;59548]An intelligent individual rejects all three, as fixed identities.[/QUOTE]

Your ego is showing. I had no idea that I was not an “intelligent individual” because my religion is Hinduism. I’ll make note of that. By the way, Fred Phelps called…and he wants his intolerance back.

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;59566]There were no Buddhists before the Hindus. Buddha was born a Hindu, had a Hindu upbrining and Hindu gurus. His teachings were also very Hindu. Later, a religion started by others called Buddhism was formed after him based on how they interpreted his teachings. Mahayana Buddhism remained faithful to Hinduism while Thervada went its separate way. Eventually, it went to South East Asia, because the Indians were not buying it.[/QUOTE]

Again, I’d like to know where they think Buddhism came from…if not Indian Hinduism. I mean, I’ve taken classes on the history of Buddhism in grad school, and I’ve read the works of scholars on the subject…so I’d really LOVE to hear where these Revisionist theories come from. I mean, the idea that Yoga and Buddhism didn’t come from Hinduism is about as “reasonable” a historical theory as Holocaust Denial.

Indeed. To borrow a concept from the TV show “Star Trek”…they are the Spiritual Borg: [I]“We are the New Age Christians. You will be assimilated. Your biological and technological distinctiveness will be added to our own. Resistance is futile.”[/I] LOL.

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;59576]What has Christianity contributed to this world other than widescale destruction and suffering?[/QUOTE]

Come now. They left behind some nice paintings and music from the last few centuries. And some of their architecture was pretty nice [I](…even the churches they built on top of the demolished temples of “infidels”…)[/I]. Of course, I doubt that the victims of their religious genocide [I](Native Americans, Mayans, Aztecs, Incans, European Pagans, etc.)[/I] will take much comfort in them.

#194

[QUOTE=TonyTamer;59610]That was a great exposition of your point Surya Deva ! Very nice. Deepest regards to the Indian spiritual culture. Yoga is distinctly Indian, the principles and facts dealt with in yoga are universal. Like Physics or calculus. Without Newton , Leibnitz invented the latter. Like physics, the facts of Kundalini are there to be discovered. I’m sure Tai Chi wouldn’t be like it is without the transmission of yoga from India to China. Then they made it their own. Native Americans have their sweat lodges, fasting, prayer circles, medicine wheels etc. Pacific islanders have a spiritual culture that can put one in synchronicity with planetary vibrations. I have nothing but admiration for the spiritual culture of India, It is the Newton of spirituality. There are others with correlational development. But it’s not a competition. You get there or you haven’t yet. Hegel’s dialectic which is Thesis- Antithesis -Synthesis works well here. Abrahamic religions, like everyone else, are working things out. That dialectic could be Old Testament- New Testament - Unitarians, and then the synthesis becomes the new thesis. Swift’s Lilliputians were seen as beautiful yet the Giant people ( forgot their name ) were described as pockmarked and ugly. There’s a lesson. Taking a higher view makes all the mountains look like a rock ribbed family even if India has the honor of having the Himalayas.[/QUOTE]

You see I do not deny that Yoga is universal and applies to all of humanity. You have as much right to do Yoga as I do. My only contention is, is to appreciate that it is a Hindu religious practice and philosophy and originated within Hinduism 10,000 years ago in the Vedic civilisation. You being Christian does not mean you cannot be a practicing Hindu at the same time, because while Christianity is your faith, Hinduism can be your knowledge. As you say yourself Kundalini is as much factual as the laws of physics. Hinduism does not dictate faith. All truths within Hinduism are scientific and derived from observation and inference. You will probably be familiar with just how much modern scientific data exists to corroborate everything Hinduism says about the supersensible realities.

To be Hindu you only have to accept its core doctrines:

  1. Brahman - God as absolute reality and pure existence
  2. Atman - The divine inner reality
  3. Dharma - the eternal laws and principles which govern reality
  4. Karma and Samsara - The law of cause and effect, the law of manifestation/evolution and reincarnation and the multiplanar cosmos
  5. Yoga - the 8-fold practice of seeking union with the divine inner reality and hence also the absolute reality

It does not matter what concept of god you have. If you want to believe in Yaweh - go ahead. Some believe in Hanuman. It does not matter whether you believe your soul is identical to god, one with god, or separate from god. It does not matter what actions you do, what you wear, how you conduct yourself as long as it is in harmony with dharma. It does not matter what language you speak. It does not matter what type of Yoga you do and what object you use as your focal point. Hinduism does not dictate all this.

But don’t claim Christianity has anything equivalent to Yoga. Even Christian gnosticism is derived from Yoga. Yoga is indeed, as you say, the Newton of spirituality. No other spiritual tradition on this planet is at a comparable level.

#195

Of all the things I’ve read by you that is the best- if only you had left out the last 2 lines. I don’t think yoga needs a champion here. Though there are needless detractions from some whose ears won’t hear the shouts of truth. Does a tree worry about weeds ? I wish I were the kind of person who could quietly speak his unadorned truth and walk away. Very difficult- I come from a large family as a middle child. BTW I am probably more identified by me as a Hindu than I am anything else except me. I strive to of the tradition that says silence about God is Golden. It’s tough sometimes. Zen may say that yoga is the gate to the house; the house is the Way. There are other gates to the same house.

#196

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;59617]You see I do not deny that Yoga is universal and applies to all of humanity. You have as much right to do Yoga as I do. My only contention is, is to appreciate that it is a Hindu religious practice and philosophy and originated within Hinduism 10,000 years ago in the Vedic civilisation. You being Christian does not mean you cannot be a practicing Hindu at the same time, because while Christianity is your faith, Hinduism can be your knowledge. As you say yourself Kundalini is as much factual as the laws of physics. Hinduism does not dictate faith. All truths within Hinduism are scientific and derived from observation and inference. You will probably be familiar with just how much modern scientific data exists to corroborate everything Hinduism says about the supersensible realities.[/QUOTE]

Actually, that’s a great point.

Saying that Yoga is not derived from Hinduism…is like saying that the Theory of Relativity is not derived from science.

Sure, the physics and properties described in the Theory have always existed…but it was scientists who first discovered the scientific formulas that dictate how Relativity works. They did not [U]invent[/U] Relativity…but they were the first to [U]understand[/U] it.

It’s one thing to study Relativity without the framework of scientific thought…but to also deny the origins of this thought in scientists like Einstein and Planck is absurd.

#197

Physics is universal but while they may call the attraction of one electron for another covalent bonding Romantics call it Love. The ancient Greeks had Eros as the Primeval God coming 1st ( in esoteric traditions ) after Chaos establishing the initial order of attraction. Greek Mythology is more fun for me to read than Physics and more meanigful to me. Who was it- e.e. cummings who wrote " is 5 " as the answer to 2+2 ?

#198

[QUOTE=BryonMorrigan;59626]Actually, that’s a great point.

Saying that Yoga is not derived from Hinduism…is like saying that the Theory of Relativity is not derived from science.

Sure, the physics and properties described in the Theory have always existed…but it was scientists who first discovered the scientific formulas that dictate how Relativity works. They did not [U]invent[/U] Relativity…but they were the first to [U]understand[/U] it.

It’s one thing to study Relativity without the framework of scientific thought…but to also deny the origins of this thought in scientists like Einstein and Planck is absurd.[/QUOTE]

Hello welcome to the forum please tell us a little about your yoga sadhana , seems like you have found some likeminded folk here , lovely.

#199

Sorry, I can’t help myself- short on the wisdom supply-loaded up with mouth. Nmaste

#200

[QUOTE=TonyTamer;59631]Physics is universal but while they may call the attraction of one electron for another covalent bonding Romantics call it Love. The ancient Greeks had Eros as the Primeval God coming 1st ( in esoteric traditions ) after Chaos establishing the initial order of attraction. Greek Mythology is more fun for me to read than Physics and more meanigful to me. Who was it- e.e. cummings who wrote " is 5 " as the answer to 2+2 ?[/QUOTE]

Physics is just a subset of the superscience of metaphysics. A wise man(whose names eludes me!) once said that physics is bordered on both sides by metaphysics.

This reality you see is not really divided into levels physical, emotional, mental, spiritual. It is actually a mind-matter continuum and all reality begins at the level of mind. The mind-matter continuum corresponds to the state of consciousness you are present in; waking is physical; dream is mental and dreamless sleep is causal. As reality is a continuum every level of it and everything within is entangled and acts in relation to one another and this is all organized by the universal intelligence. Hence when one attains to higher levels of consciousness they can tap into the universal intelligence and thereby gain mastery over the mind-matter continuum.

Does Christianity, Shamanism have a description as scientific as the one I just expounded? Yet this is exactly what Vedic science decribes. It is based on this scientific approach that the technology of Yoga could be developed. Yoga is the technology of contacting other levels of the mind-matter continuum. There is nothing else in existence that can do it. As the basic prerequisite to enter the other domains is a change of consciousness. So Yoga is the technology which allows us to change consciousness levels to enter different levels of the mind-matter continuum. This technology was developed by studying how physical processes affect affect the mind-matter continuum - such as how certain sound frequencies create effects on causal level or how certain kriyas free up entanglements at the quantum level. We living today cannot appreciate just how mega-advanced this science is. It is beyond the comprehension of even the best physicists today.

Christianity and Shamanism etc are to Hinduism what caveman rock drawings are to picasso. They are primitive forms of religion and Hinduism is an advanced form of religion. Just as we are not going to be silly and be relativist about cavemen rock drawings being the equivalent of picasso, we cannot be relativist about Christianity being the equivalent of Hinduism. Heck, even modern physics is not the equivalent . We have to simply come to terms with the fact that what we are talking about here is a very advanced scientific civilisation. This is why everyone of its cultural forms is so perfectly refined. I recently demonstrated this in regards to music by comparing Western classical music to Indian classical music