Truth about yoga (a article for discussion)

[QUOTE=AmirMourad;60062]“Yoga is indeed a science. But there is a philosophy behind it as well”

It seems one has trouble being mindful while reading messages. Buddhists have used yoga, Hindus have used yoga, Jains have used yoga, Sikhs have used yoga, and their philosophies are different. What you are referring to as the “philosophy” of yoga is not yoga - but organized religion. Because organized religion in the East has been combined with methods for transformation, it becomes very natural for many to come to the misunderstanding that the methods belong to the organized religion.

“You seem to think that philosophy and science are separate boxes full of different things. But truth is, all science has philosophy behind it. Even western science has the philosophy of materialism behind it”

That is why the approach of Western science is not scientific. The moment you start clinging to knowledge, you have become dogmatic - a veil has been raised over one’s eyes in such a way that one cannot see anything else beyond it. That can be seen in the history of science itself - time and time again the scientists had been forced to change their views because they had grown comfortable with certain assumptions and ideas for centuries. The scientists in this way have been just as dogmatic as the organized religions.

“you are disassociating Yoga from it’s philosophical roots.”

Yoga does not have philosophical roots - it has it’s roots in direct experience of Truth. Out of direct experience, certain masters and sages started speaking about their own discoveries according to their interpretation. Because the Truth cannot be transmitted through words, our words and descriptions are needed - not to transmit the Truth, but as a skillful means towards one’s direct experience. Everything that we say about it is nothing more than a finger pointing to the moon.[/QUOTE]

Buddhists, Sikhs, Jains have indeed used Yoga. But their philosophy is the same – pluralism of thought. None of these sects can be used in support of your argument because they are all parts of Indian civilisation. Hinduism itself is full of innumerable sects and cults. To say that Yoga is not Hindu because they all practice it is like saying the Bible is not Christian because Catholics, Protestants, Baptists, Pentacostals, and many other sects live by it. The argument doesn’t float.

My argument is only that the origin be acknowledged. That’s all.

We have some four problematic aspects here:

Really, must be some complicated rocket science problems. I will see what I can do to help :wink:

  1. Most people who do “Yoga” actually do Asanas. That’s some sort of gymnastic or workout. They do not associate anything spiritual or religious with “Yoga”, or maybe a little bit, cuz it’s sorta en vogue. If they’re being told that what they do is a foreign religion that they know little to nothing about and that they now should kinda like “bow to” or even would have to convert to or adopt, they won’t.

I am not sure you can be certain most people do only asanas. As many Yoga classes incorporate pranayama, chanting and meditation. However, those who are only doing asanas are not really doing Yoga. This B.S Iyengar, the main man behind bringing asanas to the West says himself. Then it can be said accurately that they are doing a practice which is part of a Hindu religious practice. Although it should be noted each yoga kriya in Hatha Yoga also incorporates pranayama, bandhas and dharana and meditation. The most popular physical Yoga in the West Iyengar Yoga as intended by Iyengar incorporates everything:

Mr Iyengar has systematised over 200 classical yoga Asanas and 14 different types of Pranayamas (with variations of many of them) from the simple to the incredibly difficult. These have been structured and categorised so as to allow a beginner to progress surely and safely from basic postures to the most advanced as they gain flexibility, strength and sensitivity in mind, body and spirit.

Meditation
As indicated, meditation is a state of mind that cannot be learnt and thus the practice of sitting and attempting to meditate is not a guarantee of results in itself. Rather the foundations of self culture have to be built through practicing the first five disciplines of yoga. The experience of meditation comes when the student is ready.
This leads to another keynote of Iyengar yoga: meditation in action. If one can meditate on a flame, grain of rice or other subject, why not meditate on the posture one is performing? So, as a student does yoga postures the mind learns to become aware of the different parts of the body. At first the mind moves from part to part but with training learns to become absorbed in all parts of the body evenly at the same time. One learns to refine one’s awareness and penetrate deeper into the body in order to achieve more accurate and thus effective and comfortable postures. So the mind is trained to achieve a meditative state of being. Although pranayama is the real key to preparation for meditation, the progress made is applicable to asanas which can be practiced to such a degree of refinement that one meditates in the posture.

If all or most of the 8 limbs are practiced, then, because they are most of the Hindu religious practices, thereby one is a practicing Hindu, even if they do not personally label themselves as one.

  1. The Yoga techniques of the eight limbs of Yoga as layed out in the Yoga Sutras work without any cultural context. I can even follow the Yamas and Niyamas without any cultural context, they are “supra-denominational”, beyond confession. Asanas, as said, are gymnastics, Pranayama are breathing techniques, the following stages are even designed to detach myself from any concept, thought, idea, etc. Therefore, I do not have to associate them with Hinduism at all, for example do I not have to read Vedas or the Gita or whatever scripture, I don’t even have to read the Yoga Sutras, I can pick the techniques up without any context. Also, many of the techniques have counterparts in other systems, for example in that of far east, China, Japan, but also “even” in very modern systems created in the West - types of meditation, concentraion, breathing techniques, and so forth. There are other opinions on this, but these are: Opinions, and not universal truths.

Actually they do have a cultural context this is clear from this Sutra itself, “Now, can begin the sacred science of Yoga” This presupposes a previous context. That context is known as Samkhya philosophy which Yoga adopts completely. Samkhya philosohy in turn is described in the Upanishads and the Gita(including Ayurvedic texts) Therefore the cultural context is Hindu. It is indeed denominational.

Yes, you can practice yamas and niyamas, but if you follow them completely you are moving to Hinduism. Ahimsa for example non-violence to all living beings extends to plants and animals. It naturally leads to vegetarianism and having a sacred attitude about nature. Neither of which are doctrines in Christianity or Islam, where killing animals is OK and Islam also sacrifices them ritually and there is a condemnation doctrine of all non-members damning them as heathen, pagan, evil, sinners.

Svadhaya is a Study of scriptures which teach about the self - Which scriptures? - Hindu scriptures. In the same way Kabbalha teaches study of the bible.

However, in general you have agreement from me that yamas and niyamas in the general sense are not denominational and are shared by even Abrahamic religions. Now here is what is not shared:

Asanas, mudras, bandhas and pranayama: Asanas and pranayama are based on a theory that there exists a subtle body in another plane of reality which is an energy body made up of energy circuits called nadis, energy transformers called chakras, and latent potential energy called Kundalini. The aim is to awaken the Kundalini by freeing up the blockages in the energy system and attain self realization. This is turn is based on Tantra religion, in particular Shaktism and Shivaism sects of Hinduism.

This of course is not in Christianity or Islam.

Pratyhara, dharana, dhayana: The process of withdrawing senses by cutting the pranic currents to them and then going inwards to explore the psyche from dipassionate and detached observation using a single object as as a focal point, often a mantra or visualization of a Hindu deity to enter deeper consciousness states and explore the higher realities. This is based on the Upanishads which teach about the different states of consciousness and how to enter into them. Related practices include astral travel.

This is of course is not in Christianity or islam.

Samadhi: The final state of Yoga whereby one enters into a state of no-mind and is in complete union with nature developing siddhis or godly powers and become like a god and attains full liberation from the cycle of rebirth.

This is of course not in Christianty or islam.

As fo the similarity between Yoga and Qigong. This is not surprising as India and China are neighbours and have had historical contact. Although the influence tended to be India to China rather than vis versa. For example Buddhism went into China and Kung Fu went into China fom India. However, confucianism or feng shui did not come into India.

  1. Yoga already is a vast and complex system, Hinduism is even vaster and more complex. Both terms are umbrella-terms that collect a wide spectrum of ideas, philosophies, religions and “even” sciences. The implication that one would have to get to understand all that to be able to practice Yoga successfully is both wrong (in my opionion) and scary, because it takes a couple of lifetimes to read all the scritpures, let alone understand them all.

Indeed they are vast and complex systems, but not so vast it would take a lifetime. Here is what you need to read to form a core understanding of Yoga/Hinduism:

The 13 principal Upanishads. Avaiable to read in any good anthology
The Yoga and Samkhya darshana, consisting of Yoga sutras, Samkhya sutras and Samkhyakarika. As well as commentaries.
Nyaya sutras, to learn the Hindu epistemological methods on how knowledge is obtained
The Bhagvad Gita
The Brahma Sutras
Niti shastras of Vidhura/Chanakya and the Panchatantra

Most of these texts are small and can be read one by one over the course of a few months or a year. All are available online for free. If one wants to immerse themselves even deeper then:

Mahabharata and Ramayana, to learn the values of dharmic living
Natya shastra, to learn the science of Hindu/yogic music, drama and dance known as Ghandarva vidya.
Vaiseshika shastra, to learn how Hindus classify the physical world and derive conclusions like gravity, atoms etc
Arthashastra, dharma shastras, Griya sutras: To learn how Hindu/yogic society is organized
Sushruta and Charaka Samhita, to learn the theory, practice and science of Ayurveda
Jyoytish shastra, to learn the science of Vedic astrology

In terms of modern writings:

The complete works of Swami Vivekananda
The complete works of Aurbindo
The works of Swami Chinmayananda

I have over 10 years read most of the above. This is why my knowledge on Hinduism/yoga is unparalled on this forum, except by other Hindus.

The Yoga members on this forum should not be ignorant and pretend that they know more than us when we are educated in the primary texts - and the chances are all they have read is a glib and read a new-age book.

  1. Discussion on the subject often happen exactly as in this thread. Hindus claim that Yoga is their (“our”) system. It belongs to them. They deserve credit for the system. Who practices Yoga without converting to Hinduism and calling themselves “Hindu” has to thank these persons. Cuz they are Hindus. Have a red line on their forehead or come from India. Often, they behave aggressive and arrogant, sarcastic and smug. As if they had invented Yoga or added the tiniest bit to the system. In fact, though, they did nothing, they added nothing, they developed nothing, invented nothing. They just say “I’m Hindu”, which is perfectly irrelevant and uninteresting. Many don’t have a regular Asana/Pranayama/meditation-practice, and don’t even follow the Yamas and Niyamas. And these people demand those who actually practice Yoga-techniques every day to say “oh thank you, you awesome Hindu, for the great gift you granted me”. That’s obviously hilarious, and all such folks create is resentment. Indeed when confronted like that, Yoga-practicioners will look for arguments and ways to dissociate Yoga from Hinduism. Because of these people.

This is basically a personal attack on the Hindus on this forum. No Hindus here claim to have ownership of Yoga and have even said they do not claim ownership of it. All the Hindus on this forum are saying is that acknowledge that Yoga is Hinduism and a religious practice that originated within Hinduism. Thus acknowledge that to gain an authentic understanding of Yoga requires an authentic understanding of Hinduism. Yoga cannot be separated from its roots.

The reason that we are having to aggressively assert this is because our polite request which also is true and can easily be proven through evidence(which we have provided several times) is not mocked, condemned and disrespected. The very basic fact that Yoga originates from Hinduism and is a Hindu religious practice and philosophy developed by Hindus is not acknowledged. Some even deny it and claim it is Western and was developed by the Greeks.

If you are going to spread such blatant misinformation then you have declared an information war with us. So do not complain when we fight back. As soon as you acknowledge and respect Yoga is Hinduism the war will end, and then we can be the best of friends. Right now, you are positioning yourselves as our enemy. Big mistake.

Finally: I have not ever met anyone who did not know that Yoga comes from India. It does. Everybody knows. Noone denies that. Great Indians brought it to the rest of the world, they are to be adored and admired, as I adore and admire B.K.S. Iyengar, whose system I follow. This is a great man with a great mind and he is widely recognized as one: “In 2004, Iyengar was named one of the 100 most influential people in the world by Time Magazine.[4][5]”

Yes, and these Hindu gurus did not bring Yoga into the West so one day its Hindu roots would be denied and it would be turned into gymnastics and exploited and trivialised. B.K.S himself has said he is not happy with what Yoga has become in the West. Iyengar bought a fully intact system of Yoga known as Hatha Yoga from India - he loved asanas, but he never said only asanas was Yoga.

The West have a great ability to cheapen and trivialise everything they get their hands on. Asuras.

[QUOTE=AmirMourad;60066]“Hindus do worship Buddha as an avatar of Vishnu after all.”

If a man like Gautama Buddha himself knew of the situation, he would laugh about the whole thing.[/QUOTE]

Actually, Gautama would laugh at a lot of what passes for Buddhism today as well. Especially people worshipping his images, monasteries with veritable orders of monks etc. Since he advocated emptiness.

[QUOTE=AmirMourad;60065]If you mean “Hindu” in the sense of one who was living in a certain geographical location, then yes. But if you mean it in the sense of an organized religion - neither Gautama nor Mahavira were Hindus.[/QUOTE]

Yes. When I say Hindu, I mean the indian civilisational quality.

Because whether you understand or do not understand, Truth is beyond both your understanding and not understanding.

For someone who seems to be an advocate of such radical relativism in matters of intellectual discourse, you seem pretty convinced that you KNOW what you are saying. I can turn your arguments against you in a jiffy. Would you like that?

[QUOTE=vimoh;60069]Actually, Gautama would laugh at a lot of what passes for Buddhism today as well. Especially people worshipping his images, monasteries with veritable orders of monks etc. Since he advocated emptiness.[/QUOTE]
He might not laugh at the different sects that developed in his name, but he sure would laugh at someone who claims to be enlightened because he can cut a slice of bread.

“Actually, Gautama would laugh at a lot of what passes for Buddhism today as well”

Certainly.

“Since he advocated emptiness.”

This included.

Sarva,

“but he sure would laugh at someone who claims to be enlightened because he can cut a slice of bread”

You can only truly cut a slice of bread if you are awakened. For one who has come to one’s awakening, one is absolutely integrated in this present moment. Otherwise, you may be doing all kinds of things physically - but as long as one is asleep, one continues seeing and yet remaining absolutely blind, hearing and yet remaining absolutely deaf.

vimoh,

“Yes. When I say Hindu, I mean the indian civilisational quality”

Then I can agree, although this “quality” is not a static and fixed thing.

[QUOTE=Sarvamaṅgalamaṅgalā;60043]It’s ironic that most of the Hindus here know more about Christianity than the avarage Christian.[/QUOTE]

This is because of the Hindu debate ethic of knowing both sides extremely well so one can have an intelligent debate with people who know what they are talking about. In the Hindu formal debate tradition each party would be very aware of the opponents position.

How else can you have a debate on something if you are not knowlegable about the opponents position? Here we have many people and trolls like yaram making declarative statements when it is clear they have no knowledge or education about what they are talking about. Take for instance the following statements which I exposed earlier on

“The vedas said untouchables were the dirty feet of Brahman” and “India was always a materially poor country because it was other wordly” - Amir(resident Buddha!)

Actually it was the Shudras who were the foundation of Brahman. There is no mention of untouchables. India was not only not materially poor, it was the most richest region in the world right up until the 18th century. From 1AD to 1000AD it had the highest share of the global GDP that has ever been achieived at 33% in 1AD and 28% in 1000AD.

“The british bought education to the masses in india, prior to there was no educational system because only the Brahmins got education” - yaram(troll)

No, actually the truth was according to British census figures themselves India had hundreds of thousands of schools, hundreds of colleges and universities and the largest attendence of these educational institutes was Shudras who made up 45% of the attendees, and only 22% were Brahmins. The British also noted this system was far more superior than the education system both in how it was conducted and its content. . In fact a mass education was not instituted in Britain until they learned of the Indian education system and then emulated it. The compulsory subjects were Sanskrit, Hindu philosophy and logic. Other main studies were Astronomy, Medicine, Law, theology and there were technical colleges for Indian music and dance.

Yaram also scoffed and insulted Sarva when Sarva said temple ritual worship included mudras, pranayamas and asanas. I then proved by providing a reference to a book on Hindu temple worship and an article mentioning mudras used in temple ritual worship that was true.

Neither Amir or Yaram conceded they were wrong. Therefore it is clear we are dealing with ignorant, arrogant and uneducated people here who have no qualification to even be participating in a debate with learned scholars/intellectuals like ourselves and nor do they have any sense of debate ethic.

Like I said our opponent here is not intelligent debaters who have a well formed position of their own but stupidity.

I’m appalled by the resistence to accept a single and simple fact.

[B]Yoga is Hindu, developed in India, by Indians, with reference to the Vedas, referenced by every Hindu scripture, purana, upanishad since times immemorial.[/B]

To even state otherwise one would have to apply the most warped logic around the subject along with some false evidence as a topping…

I can only think of two reasons for someone to be stubborn (without reason) to accept this: jealousy or some sort of etnocentrist ideals deeply rooted into their brains.

sigh

That said the irony is that after all this you need to be convinced of a well known attitude in America towards the Bible and Christianity : that generally we are not literalists and aligned with that we make Christ’s example( See Poor Richard’s Almanac by Ben Franklin on the Imitation of Christ ) more of a guide.

Indeed, it is true American Christians do not follow their religion literally. Otherwise America would not have some of the highest rates of crime in the world and glorify sex and violence in the media. The truth is Christianity has been a religion in decline ever since the dawn of modern civilisation and the rise of science. Science disproved many of the doctrines held by Christians and since then faith in Christianity has declined. This is bound to happen because it is a primitive religion and cannot stand the test of scientific progress, especially the emerging scientific worldview in line with Vedanta. However, at the same time many Westerners feel a sense of loyalty to Christianity so maintain it, even though many will not read its scripture and do not practice it as it prescribed.

You are an example of a better human being than an example of a better Christian. If you were true to your faith you would be calling me a pagan and heathen right now and trying to convert me.

I really have no idea of the average knowledge of an Indian of exo-Indian culture but judging from yogaforums posts many foreigners know much about the holy Books of India.

Every Westerner I have talked to on on this forum so far has a very superficial understanding of Yogic/Hindu concepts and refuses to allow knowledge to happen to develop their understanding further. Take Pandaras belief in karma for instance as a law of punishment and where everything is determined by past actions. As a learned Hindu I exposed him to the correct understanding of karma of the 3 main types of karma: past karma, present karma and stored karma - described in the Yoga sutras. However, despite this, Pandara maintained his ignorant views on karma.

I think Westerners on this forum need to humble themselves to the educated Hindus on this forum and stop pretending they know more about Hinduism/Yoga than we do, when it is clear they do not and are constantly embarrasing themselves with ignorant statements about it.

Vimoh , I know no Christian that looks at a baby thinking this is a sinner- the opposite is true it is universal to say that they have just come from God and are innocent of the world and its material weighing down the spirit. You, Sarva…and Surya make the same theoretical jump that is not justified in actuality. Christians are people not the paradines your minds have created- the fog of Maya clouds all our minds, don’t let it invade your heart- open it, which by the way is what I’d call the crass commercialization of yoga in the USA, openess and democracy. demand is met with supply, first the baby crawls then walks, I believe there are already some who have flown on the wings of yoga. Just as India has adopted Democracy we adopt yoga, it is a child that thrives wherever someone gives it a home in their heart.

[QUOTE=TonyTamer;60050]Surya Deva- Arjuna looks sleepy in the video- must be his sleeplessness showing. Was that Hindi spoken by Krishna ? It was very pleasant to listen to.[/QUOTE]

Yes it a more sanskritized form of Hindi, except when Krishna begins a new verse. Then it is in Sanskrit

Here it is with english subtitles: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93QgfpVQU3U

[QUOTE=TonyTamer;60087]. Christians are people not the paradines your minds have created[/QUOTE]

Christians most certainly are people, I am not denying that. But Christianity is a doctrine. We are not really interested in discussing individual Christians, like your mother or father peter, but give them our best wishes anyway. We are basing our arguments on Christian theology and history and contrasting it with Hinduism and yoga, or maybe I should wake up my mother to settle this?

Pietro,

“Yoga is Hindu, developed in India, by Indians.”

It is true that the technology of yoga has arisen out of India. But that does not mean anything except that the people who happened to discover these methods were of a particular geographical identity. Otherwise, to say that the technology itself is Hindu simply reflects one’s own ignorance. Even if you lived on another planet - if you have an understanding as to how to use these methods, they will work on any human being. And any human being is capable of coming to their enlightenment through the yogic sciences, these methods don’t make any discrimination. They are absolutely indifferent to your identifications, attachments, beliefs, opinions, likes and dislikes in the same way that a sword is indifferent to whether you are a Christian or a Buddhist. That is why a Buddhist can come to their enlightenment through the methods of yoga, or a Hindu, or a Jain, or an atheist, or a theist, or a panentheist, or a Jew, or a beggar, or an emperor, or whatever your status is. Technology is simply technology. Know how to use it, and it works. If you don’t know how to use it, it does not work.

“with reference to the Vedas, referenced by every Hindu scripture, purana, upanishad since times immemorial”

There have been many people who have used the science who do not accept the Vedas or the Upanishads, who do not agree with the orthodox Hindus, and have made tremendous use of the science, including various awakened masters. There are many tantrics who have not accepted the Vedas, and have been considered as “outcasts” because of this by the Hindu Brahmins for centuries. And they have made just as much use of the technology as anybody else.

It is true that yoga is universally effective, nobody is denying that. A fire burns anyone, whether one believes in fire or not. But the teachings of the vedas, upanishads and other Hindu shastras still form the conceptual basis for the practices of yoga. It’s similar to counting which is a technology and universally applicable, but this technology is based on the concept of [I]number[/I]. This is a simple analogy, maybe you can understand. The different forms of yoga described in Hindu texts are like the different methods of counting, like decimal, binairy etc. But the underlying principle is still the concept of [I]number[/I]. That’s how the different forms of yoga are all based on Hindu concepts which in its [I]seed[/I] form are described in the vedas and upanishads and are expounded in the darshanas, agamas, tantras, yoga shastras, upavedas, itihasas etc. A deeper understanding of yoga necessarily requires a deeper understanding of Bharata Dharma.

Sarva,

“But the teachings of the vedas, upanishads and other Hindu shastras still form the conceptual basis for the practices of yoga”

One still has not identified the essential matter. If these teachings have spoken about the practice of yoga, from where have these teachings arisen ?

“That’s how the different forms of yoga are all based on Hindu concepts”

Do you think that the sages who discovered what they had discovered thought of themselves as belonging to any organized tradition ? Certainly they lived in India, but when a man comes to direct insight into things as they are - wisdom makes no discrimination as to whether one is an Indian or a Chinese.

“which in its seed form are described in the vedas and upanishads”

That the seed of the matter has been described in the Vedas and Upanishads does not mean that it has its origins in the Vedas or the Upanishads. Unless you have because of your conditioning come to believe that the Vedas are a revelation from God himself, just as the Christians, Jews, or Muslims believe that their scriptures are revelation from God - in which case there is no purpose of investigating deeper and inquiring out of ones own intelligence. And neither does it mean that because something is “scripture” then it must be absolute. The fact is that, limited to the workings of the mind, the mind is not capable of anything more than an interpretation of existence through the senses. Out of this - a thousand and one different philosophies and belief systems have been born. They may be useful just as a staff is useful in darkness, but the moment one starts clinging to ones knowledge - one loses all clarity of vision.

“But the teachings of the vedas, upanishads and other Hindu shastras still form the conceptual basis for the practices of yoga”

One still has not identified the essential matter. If these teachings have spoken about the practice of yoga, from where have these teachings arisen ?

This is a kind of chicken or the egg question and not really relevant in discussing the conceptual ground of the yoga practices.

Do you think that the sages who discovered what they had discovered thought of themselves as belonging to any organized tradition ? Certainly they lived in India, but when a man comes to direct insight into things as they are - wisdom makes no discrimination as to whether one is an Indian or a Chinese.

It doesn’t matter whether the vedic rishis lived in India or on the north pole. The fact remains that yoga as we know of today is based upon the foundation of vedic knowledge and its branches.

The fact is that, limited to the workings of the mind, the mind is not capable of anything more than an interpretation of existence through the senses. Out of this - a thousand and one different philosophies and belief systems have been born. They may be useful just as a staff is useful in darkness, but the moment one starts clinging to ones knowledge - one loses all clarity of vision.

How do you know any of this, or anything else you say on this board about yoga, to be true? Like I said earlier, you cannot answer this without giving credit to a sampradaya (lineage of teachers) or by claiming that you are enlightened yourself which is something I am not going to swallow.

Father Peter is a priest and a good authority on what Christians believe, my mother is an example of a doctrinaire conservative American Christian ( I assume European Christians are also this way but I don’t know but suspect Latin American Christians may be more conservative and I hesitate to speak at all for them ). She and He are much better at reflecting the true attitude of Christian beliefs than your ideation based on things you’ve read. The actuality vs. the abstracted. And I hope you didn’t imply my mother was doddering by saying should you wake up your mother to settle this. As I said my Mother is extraordinarily bright and alert by force of will and constant application of mind. She would outwit you in conversation I’d wager.

I think it is time for another Amir-Buster :smiley:

First, I think we should all be aware of how sane Amir is. He claims to be a Buddha - because he can cut a slice of bread and make toast - but more effortlessly than anybody else because he is awake. He claims all other great spiritual masters Patanjali, Yogananda, Vivekananda, Aurobindo are all lying. He claims to have reinvented meditation by himself. He claims all his knowledge he shares is his direct truth emanating from his being and NOT from books, though his fav hobby is reading tons of books(especially on Zen) and then regurgiating that information on this forum. He claims he has no opinions and everything he says is an emanating from absolute truth.(Even though many on this forum have corrected him on many things before :D)

So with this in mind try not to take anything he says anymore seriously than say conversing with somebody who claims they are Napolian.

Now that said, Amirbusting time:

  1. Yoga is based on Hindu philosophy(Samkhya-Yoga)"

This statement is absolutely meaningless, as what you are calling “Hindu” is not a fixed, static thing. There are as many different belief systems and philosophies in what you are calling “Hinduism” as possible, none of which have been capable of transmitting the Truth. .

I said Yoga is a Hindu philosophy and Amir said the term is meaningless. Let us consult an encyclopedia of philosophy shall we:

Hindu philosophy is the longest surviving philosophical tradition in India. We can recognize several historical stages. The earliest, from around 700 bc, was the proto-philosophical period, when karma and liberation theories arose, and the proto-scientific ontological lists in the Upaniṣads were compiled. Next came the classical period, spanning the first millennium ad, in which there was constant philosophical exchange between different Hindu, Buddhist and Jaina schools.
The central concerns of the Hindu philosophers were metaphysics, epistemological issues, philosophy of language, and moral philosophy. The different schools can be distinguished by their different approaches to reality, but all considered the Vedas (the sacred scriptures) authoritative, and all believed that there is a permanent individual self (ātman). They shared with their opponents (Buddhists and Jainas) a belief in the need for liberation. They used similar epistemic tools and methods of argument.

Because these views of the world differed, they had to be proved and properly established. Accordingly, logical and epistemological tools were developed and fashioned according to the needs and beliefs of individual philosophers. Most agreed on two or three sources of knowledge: perception and inference, with verbal testimony as a possible third. In this quest for philosophical rigour, there was a need for precision of language, and there were important philosophical developments among the grammarians and the philosophers who explained the Vedas (the Mīmāṃsakas). A culmination of these linguistic efforts can be seen in the philosopher of language Bhartṛhari. One of his greatest accomplishments was the full articulation of the theory that a sentence as a whole is understood in a sudden act of comprehension.

It is customary to name six Hindu schools, of the more than a dozen that existed, thus lumping several into a single school. This is particularly the case with Vedānta. The six are listed in three pairs: Sāṅkhya–Yoga; Vedānta–Mīmāṃsā; Nyāya–Vaiśeṣika. This does not take account of the grammarians or Kashmir Saivism.

http://www.rep.routledge.com/article/F002

Ah, so there is indeed something called Hindu philosophy and my statement that Yoga is based on Hindu philosophy is indeed true :wink:

  1. Yoga originated within Hinduism in Vedic times"

The above.

Here are the facts:

The saying, “What’s in the past, should stay in the past” - doesn’t work here.

We might already have an idea of what Yoga is but to understand it better, we have to know what it has become as well as its roots and beginnings. A quick look at the history of Yoga will help us appreciate its rich tradition and who knows, it might help us incorporate Yoga into our lives.

Although Yoga is said to be as old as civilization, there is no physical evidence to support this claim. Earliest archaeological evidence of Yoga’s existence could be found in stone seals which depict figures of Yoga Poses. The stone seals place Yoga’s existence around 3000 B.C.

For a better discussion of the history of Yoga, we could divide it into four periods: the Vedic Period, Pre-Classical Period, Classical Period, and Post-Classical Period.

Vedic Period

The existence of the Vedas marks this period. The Vedas is the sacred scripture of Brahmanism that is the basis of modern-day Hinduism. It is a collection of hymns which praise a divine power. The Vedas contains the oldest known Yogic teachings and as such, teachings found in the Vedas are called Vedic Yoga. This is characterized by rituals and ceremonies that strive to surpass the limitations of the mind.

During this time, the Vedic people relied on rishis or dedicated Vedic Yogis to teach them how to live in divine harmony. Rishis were also gifted with the ability to see the ultimate reality through their intensive spiritual practice. It was also during this time that Yogis living in seclusion (in forests) were recorded.

http://www.abc-of-yoga.com/beginnersguide/yogahistory.asp

My statement was indeed true: Yoga originated within Hinduism in Vedic times.

  1. Hindu religious practices are Yoga(yamas, niyamas, asanas, pranyama, dharana, dhyana)"

Concentration is a certain mental state, as is meditation - and pranayam is just control of the breath and it’s energy. There is nothing Hindu about any of these things. The various “yamas” and “niyamas” such as non-violence, truthfulness and non-stealing - are not “Hindu” either, almost every society on the Earth since man’s beginning has spoken of such things. As long as your speaking of the matter is coming from your own deeply rooted identification of being a Hindu, it is impossible to see into the essential matter.

Indeed breathing and concentration are not Hindu, they are natural activities. However, techniques to work with them to lead to samadhi are certainly Hindu.

Let us look at original author of the Yoga sutras Patanjali on what he has to say on pranayama and dharana:

Pranayama: breath control

2.49 Once that perfected posture has been achieved, the slowing or braking of the force behind, and of unregulated movement of inhalation and exhalation is called breath control and expansion of prana (pranayama), which leads to the absence of the awareness of both.
(tasmin sati shvasa prashvsayoh gati vichchhedah pranayamah)

2.50 That pranayama has three aspects of external or outward flow (exhalation), internal or inward flow (inhalation), and the third, which is the absence of both during the transition between them, and is known as fixedness, retention, or suspension. These are regulated by place, time, and number, with breath becoming slow and subtle.
(bahya abhyantara stambha vrittih desha kala sankhyabhih paridrishtah dirgha sukshmah)

2.51 The fourth pranayama is that continuous prana which surpasses, is beyond, or behind those others that operate in the exterior and interior realms or fields.
(bahya abhyantara vishaya akshepi chaturthah)

2.53 Through these practices and processes of pranayama, the mind acquires or develops the fitness, qualification, or capability for true concentration (dharana), .
(dharanasu cha yogyata manasah)
Dharana: concentration

3.1 Concentration (dharana) is the process of holding or fixing the attention of mind onto one object or place.
(deshah bandhah chittasya dharana)

3.2 The repeated continuation, or uninterrupted stream of that one point of focus is called absorption in meditation (dhyana), and is the seventh of the eight steps.
(tatra pratyaya ekatanata dhyanam)

3.3 When only the essence of that object, place, or point shines forth in the mind, as if devoid even of its own form, that state of deep absorption is called deep concentration or samadhi, which is the eighth rung.
(tad eva artha matra nirbhasam svarupa shunyam iva samadhih)

3.4 The three processes of dharana, dhyana, and samadhi, when taken together on the same object, place or point is called samyama.
(trayam ekatra samyama)

3.5 Through the mastery of that three-part process of samyama, the light of knowledge, transcendental insight, or higher consciousness (prajna) dawns, illumines, flashes, or is visible.
(tad jayat prajna lokah)

3.6 That three-part process of samyama is gradually applied to the finer planes, states, or stages of practice.
(tasya bhumisu viniyogah)

Now that is a very formal and technical description explaining the science of pranayama and concentration. You are fond of claiming the Gnostics, Greeks, Egyptians and shamans knew this and practiced similar things. Then show me the proof - cite their texts that mention it and lets compare.

That is what it means to be dogmatic. And that one is thinking of oneself as a “Hindu” still reflects that one continues constructing masks over one’s true nature.

I think of myself as Hindu as much as you consider yourself to be the Buddha :wink:

Again, the word yoga just means Union. It has been spoken of time and time again by the Hindus - that everything in existence arises out of “Brahman”. If everything arises out of Brahman and is Brahman, then what are you doing discriminating between this and that, between what is “Hindu” and what is not ?

If you did not discriminate between this and that you would not be able to discriminate between your mouth and your ass :wink: Amir, is your mouth and your ass the same?

That is not a philosophy - that is a penetrating insight which arises from seeing into things as they are. To see into one’s own true nature is a living experience - and to say that this is a philosophy is just like saying that gravity is a philosophy. Philosophy is entirely different, the approach of the philosopher is to think about Truth. And in one’s thinking about it, one has gone dimensions away from the reality. The whole approach of the yogic sciences is not to think about it, but to see the Truth, and the transformation that arises out of direct seeing. That is why Patanjali has said it quite simply that “Yoga” is bringing the activity of the mind to a stillness. Vyasa has said that “Yoga is Samadhi”. What have said has nothing to do with philosophy - but with a certain state of consciousness. Any method that leads towards this is a method towards Yoga. A person who practices the method is a yogi. Yes, even Gautama Buddha who was not a Hindu was a yogi, as was Mahavira.

The Routlege encyclopedia of philosophy disagrees Amir :wink:

As for gravity - is it a force, a depression in space-time, a quantum effect, a dimensional distortion? It depends on who you ask. Therefore even a scientific fact like gravity has a theory behind it. Just as Yoga does - Samkhya.

Yes, there should be tremendous doubt about it. Whatever has not entered into your own direct perception should not be accepted, it does not matter who says it.

Now tell us earlier your statements that “Untouchables came from the dirty feet of Brahmin” and “India was always materially poor” - which were disproven - did they come from your direct perception? :wink:

But while the universe is unity it is also diversity"

These are all one-sided interpretations of the intellect. Existence is neither “dual” or “non-dual”, it is simply inexpressible. In fact they cannot exist without each other - the very idea of unity exists because of multiplicity, the very idea of the “non-dual” exists because of the dual, they cannot be separated.

If existence is not expressed then what we are doing here? Looks pretty expressed to me :wink:
You say that the idea of unity depends upon non unity. In logic we can represent the element unity as U.

The compound non-unity is the function NOT U. Therefore unity actually comes before non unity. As unity is a pure element, non unity is compound of unity + the operator NOT, there unity comes before non unity. Just as one comes before two. Therefore, while two depends on one, one does not depend on two.

Hence unity can exist without duality, but duality cannot exist without unity. A simple logic really. Should be no problem to follow by a Buddha :wink:

“we do not live in a world where everyone believes in universalism.”

One either knows or does not know, there can be no room for belief.

Do you know every statement you make on the forum. Did you know for example, “Untouchables came from the dirty feet of Brahman” Please answer :wink:

It seems one has trouble being mindful while reading messages. Buddhists have used yoga, Hindus have used yoga, Jains have used yoga, Sikhs have used yoga, and their philosophies are different. What you are referring to as the “philosophy” of yoga is not yoga - but organized religion. Because organized religion in the East has been combined with methods for transformation, it becomes very natural for many to come to the misunderstanding that the methods belong to the organized religion.

Africans have used steam engines, Indians have used steam engine, Chinese have used steam engines - does that mean the steam engine is not a Western inventon born out of the Western empirical and capitalist tradition?

The moment you start clinging to knowledge, you have become dogmatic - a veil has been raised over one’s eyes in such a way that one cannot see anything else beyond it. That can be seen in the history of science itself - time and time again the scientists had been forced to change their views because they had grown comfortable with certain assumptions and ideas for centuries. The scientists in this way have been just as dogmatic as the organized religions.

Ah, wise words Amir. So tell me are you clinging to your knowledge that “time and time again the scientists had been forced to change this views, because they had grown uncomfortable with certain assumptions and ideas for centuries” and “You must come to a direct awakening of your truth” and “You know yourself through and through” and “Nothing that has not entered your exprience should be accepted” and “You have no opinions” and “Untouchables were born from Brahmans dirty feet” and “India was always a materially poor country” and “Yoga does not have philosophical roots - it has it’s roots in direct experience of Truth. Out of direct experience, certain masters and sages started speaking about their own discoveries according to their interpretation”

You joker :smiley: