Christians have an out there Sarva -it’s called Baptism of Desire- look it up. Also, going by Jesus can and does have different interpretations, eg. the one I’ve always used: Jesus occupies a point on the path to God just as Buddha does so I need to go that way eventually. I think the Bible says he sits at the right hand of God so it’s like a spiritual GPS ’ turn left at Jesus and head straight until you see the light "
[QUOTE=vimoh;60031]When the west first got in touch with India and her traditions, it found a lot of it to be sheer barbarism. This was because these traditions were evaluated on the basis of western / Judaeo-Christian biases. So they set about the wholly Christian business of "saving people from these perceived evils. Meditation was thought to be escapism from the material world and the western colonisers saved Indians by “gifting” them an education system that was materialistic and "rational. But those wretched Indians kept their evil traditions alive even though the western man will have none of that nonsense. Christianity was obviously better and made more sense.
Later, when the west became aware of Yoga and Ayurveda and their benefits, they decided that it was wholly unfit that Indians should have had something like this. So in a wholly Christian fashion, they set about the task of “saving” these traditions from India. Something as awesome as Yoga needed to be refined by the superior west, not those chauvinistic Indians.
First they were saving Indians from Indian culture. Then they were saving Indian culture from Indians. They think they were and are “liberating” Yoga from the evil clutches of Hinduism. They are freeing India’s traditions and making them available to the world, for the greater good for mankind and the universe. All of a sudden, Christianity started seeming perfectly conducive to the Yogic path and words from the Bible started to be re-interpreted to fit this new paradigm. Soon enough, it became apparent that Christianity was Yogic all along.
Plenty of people imagine themselves on a high moral ground in this debate. They are spiritually and culturally superior from the chauvinists who seek to claim the origin of a cultural tradition (not its practice mind you) as theirs. They are all about the sophistication of universalism, the high-mindedness of global well-being, and the maturity of a saviour. The “others” on the other hand, are just a bunch of petty ethnocentric Hindoos who can’t possibly see the world through their lofty point of view.
[I]I find the sheer arrogance of this disgusting. [/I][/QUOTE]
Those things about “Britishers in India” and what they did or not, to me, are points of debate. There are some old people in India, who still feel things were better under British rule than under the current Indian government. I have my own grand-father who just explained how things worked well for India under Britishers. Most Indians may not agree with me…these are just my opinions 
Besides, most Christians I know read the Bible written in their heart by Christ’s example. Few actually read the old testament and most know only the basics of the new testament.
[QUOTE=TonyTamer;60041]Besides, most Christians I know read the Bible written in their heart by Christ’s example. Few actually read the old testament and most know only the basics of the new testament.[/QUOTE]
It’s ironic that most of the Hindus here know more about Christianity than the avarage Christian.
[QUOTE=yaram;60023][B]There can not be evidences for everything.[/B][/QUOTE]
Thanks for finally admitting that your position is based on nothing but whim and fancy. In the spirit of your dialog, I shall now conclude that Yoga was invented by giant pink dragons who descended to the planet on UFOs…as it has just as much “validity” as a theory as yours, and just as much “evidence” backing it up.
[QUOTE=Quetzalcoatl;60024]They deserve credit for the system.[/QUOTE]
Thank you also for admitting that. It does one good to humbly admit his/her mistakes!
[QUOTE=Quetzalcoatl;60024]Have a red line on their forehead or come from India.[/QUOTE]
Hmmph! That seems rather “targeted”…
[QUOTE=yaram;60040]There are some old people in India, who still feel things were better under British rule than under the current Indian government.[/QUOTE]
There are some African-Americans who probably did rather well under slavery…and I know there are some Jewish people who credit the Holocaust with helping to create the state of Israel…but they are a tiny minority, just as your examples…
[QUOTE=Sarvamaṅgalamaṅgalā;60043]It’s ironic that most of the Hindus here know more about Christianity than the avarage Christian.[/QUOTE]
Trust me…that’s a universal truth about Christianity. Most Christians are unbelievably ignorant about Christian theology or history. It’s because they are taught a more “legalistic” form of Christianity. [I](I suspect that such is the truth also with many Islamic Fundamentalists…)[/I] They are told, “Don’t do this!” and “Don’t do that!” but when it comes to the basic theological concepts of the religion, they know little more than, “You gotta get saved from Jesus!”
There can not be evidences for everything.
We cannot have a rational discussion then troll.
Can one show me evidence of Lord Shiva teaching Yoga, as ‘Surya’ (alias?) posted??
The Agamas/tantras are the evidence. They present dialogues between Shiva and Parvarti on Yoga, often Parvarti is asking Shiva the lord of Yoga questions and he answers them in a very detailed manner. In one scripture he presents 108 different types of meditations. However, of course as a scholar we know that this written by Hindus later and merely attributed to Shiva and Parvarti. Just alike the Yoga Vasistha which presents a dialogue between Rama and his guru sage Vasistha answer questions on Vedanta in a detailed manner.
There is another group of scriptures known as the Tantras. They belong to the Sakta cult. They glorify Sakti as the World-Mother. They dwell on the Sakti (energy) aspect of God and prescribe numerous courses of ritualistic worship of the Divine Mother in various forms. There are seventy-seven Agamas. These are very much like the Puranas in some respects. The texts are usually in the form of dialogues between Siva and Parvati. In some of these, Siva answers the questions put by Parvati, and in others, Parvati answers, Siva questioning. Mahanirvana, Kularnava, Kulasara, Prapanchasara, Tantraraja, Rudra-Yamala, Brahma-Yamala, Vishnu-Yamala and Todala Tantra are the important works. The Agamas teach several occult practices some of which confer powers, while the others bestow knowledge and freedom. Sakti is the creative power of Lord Siva. Saktism is really a supplement to Saivism.
http://www.dlshq.org/religions/agamas.htm
Still better, do we have a YouTube video for that yoga teaching session by Lord Shiva or Krishna?
Yes, we do: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-cvc22vSFQ&feature=fvwrel
Troll
That is why, I said earlier, regarding the compatibility of Yoga with Christianity is to be taken by a person and can not be imposed.
Indeed, an individual Christian can make Yoga work for them and practice Yoga. As Tony and his mother has, and countless other Christians have. However, only by going against the core tenets of their religion.
Thus the argument being made here is Yoga is not compatible with the religion of Christianity. The Christian religious authorities themselves declare this.
When the wise ancient sages has given every credit to God(or Creator), what is the “ego-problem” of “pseudo-Hindus”???
The ancient sages gave gredit to their predecessors. The Upanishads contain a huge appendix of the lineage of teachers it had gone though before being transmitted by the latest. Panini gives credit to several linguists in his treatise that went before him. Isvarkrishna gives credit to the predecessors of Samkhya.
The condition continues today. Swami Vivekananda gives credit to Ramakrishna who gives credit to his masters who gave credit to theirs. The Kriya Yogi’s give credit all the way to the beginning of the Nath samapradyaa. The Jains give credit to the 24 Tirthakaras before them.
This is considered good schloarly practice. To not credit your sources is known as plagarism, which is considered the biggest crime in the academic world and is taken very seriously. I am even sure you had to write essays and reference them troll.
Sarva my Mom saysto tell you that she has not " softened " and has held the same views since her formal instruction at age 30. Of course, we should not extrapolate based on just the Christians I know as I try not to ask people about religion or politics unless it interferes with me. That said the irony is that after all this you need to be convinced of a well known attitude in America towards the Bible and Christianity : that generally we are not literalists and aligned with that we make Christ’s example ( See Poor Richard’s Almanac by Ben Franklin on the Imitation of Christ ) more of a guide. I really have no idea of the average knowledge of an Indian of exo-Indian culture but judging from yogaforums posts many foreigners know much about the holy Books of India. I don’t see that as irony but as a compliment to it’s Universality. In the History of religions Christ’s message was different than much of what came before , it went out to the average person taking for his disciples fishermen and a tax collector etc. making religion simple not complicated- what followed is not exactly as Christ would have wished . He said the Kingdom of God is within you. It’s not in the institutional preservation efforts made later. I can’t think of any universally acclaimed wise men, like the Dalai Lama for example, who did not praise and revere Jesus. Get beyond parochialism, yoga’s origination in India is assured and I’ve never read a book that said otherwise. That it can bloom anywhere is praise for yoga and India. I will now go outside and enjoy the beautiful weather. Namaste
Bryon,
“I wonder if these same people argue that the Kaballah is not a part of, or did not originate with, Judaism. It’s really the same kind of argument.”
Even the Qabalists have been practicing a kind of yoga, because again, yoga simply refers to the science and the technology that is involved in the expansion of consciousness - it has nothing whatsoever to do with philosophy. It is just a tool in your hands, the tool does not care whether you are Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, Jain, or otherwise. And that is why Buddhists, the Jains, the Sikhs, the Charvakas, the Advaitists, the followers of Samkhya philosophy, and all of the various cults of each of these organized traditions which contain as many different philosophies and interpretations as one can imagine - all have made use of the method. Because what is relevant is whether you are aware of how to use use the method. To say that Yoga is a “Hindu” practice in itself reflects that one know nothing whatsoever about the matter, nor has one come to a direct experience - one has not taken the discipline to it’s innermost depth.
Surya Deva- Arjuna looks sleepy in the video- must be his sleeplessness showing. Was that Hindi spoken by Krishna ? It was very pleasant to listen to.
Surya,
“1) Yoga is based on Hindu philosophy(Samkhya-Yoga)”
This statement is absolutely meaningless, as what you are calling “Hindu” is not a fixed, static thing. There are as many different belief systems and philosophies in what you are calling “Hinduism” as possible, none of which have been capable of transmitting the Truth. More so, the very word “Hindu” was just a word that was used to refer to the culture of the people who lived along the banks of the Indus river and the civilization which had flourished there. It is a geographical identity. And even if there was a single system which one can call “Hinduism”, there is not, but if there was, where has this system arisen from ? Was it self created ? Or was it the by product of the direct experience of several masters who had decided to transmit their understanding ? Yoga
has it’s origins in direct perception which gives birth to wisdom, and wisdom is not anybody’s property - it comes from within your own being. So if you are interested at all in yoga - look there.
“2) Yoga originated within Hinduism in Vedic times”
The above.
“3) All Hindu scriptures teach Yoga philosophy and/or practice(Gita, Shiva Samhita, Agamas/tantras, Yogavasistha, Upanishads, Vedas, Yoga sutras, Hatha Yoga Pradipaka)”
And there are as many different interpretations in these scriptures as one can imagine.
“4) Hindu religious practices are Yoga(yamas, niyamas, asanas, pranyama, dharana, dhyana)”
Concentration is a certain mental state, as is meditation - and pranayam is just control of the breath and it’s energy. There is nothing Hindu about any of these things. The various “yamas” and “niyamas” such as non-violence, truthfulness and non-stealing - are not “Hindu” either, almost every society on the Earth since man’s beginning has spoken of such things. As long as your speaking of the matter is coming from your own deeply rooted identification of being a Hindu, it is impossible to see into the essential matter.
“5) All Hindu gurus teach Yoga”
Anybody who teaches a method towards one’s enlightenment is teaching Yoga.
“6) Yoga was taught by Hindu gods like Krishna and Shiva”
Do you really believe this ?
“7) Hundreds of the asanas are invocations to Hindu gods, like Natarajasana, Surya Namaskar and AUM chanting is the Hindu sound of creation.”
The asanas are just various ways to control the body to channel and awaken certain energies in one’s system. They were not intended as “invocations”, the very word asana means “seat” and originally simply referred to the posture in which the yogi would be sitting for meditation. It was only much later that all of the various ways of controlling the body were created to make the transition into meditation far more natural and friendly. Because not everybody can sit immediately for meditation, the mind has a whole history of programming behind it, it simply wants to work according to it’s tendencies - it wants to revel and resist the process. So, first some groundwork may be needed to create an inner atmosphere in the mind through control of the body. And all of these methods are just towards this - to influence the mind through control of the body.
[QUOTE=AmirMourad;60049]Bryon,
“I wonder if these same people argue that the Kaballah is not a part of, or did not originate with, Judaism. It’s really the same kind of argument.”
Even the Qabalists have been practicing a kind of yoga, because again, yoga simply refers to the science and the technology that is involved in the expansion of consciousness - it has nothing whatsoever to do with philosophy. It is just a tool in your hands, the tool does not care whether you are Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, Jain, or otherwise. And that is why Buddhists, the Jains, the Sikhs, the Charvakas, the Advaitists, the followers of Samkhya philosophy, and all of the various cults of each of these organized traditions which contain as many different philosophies and interpretations as one can imagine - all have made use of the method. Because what is relevant is whether you are aware of how to use use the method. To say that Yoga is a “Hindu” practice in itself reflects that one know nothing whatsoever about the matter, nor has one come to a direct experience - one has not taken the discipline to it’s innermost depth.[/QUOTE]
Yoga is most certainly philosophy. And it is so on multiple levels. The most basic level being the idea that a person can themselves become one with the paramAtmA without having to rely on the benevolence of an up-there and out-there deity. This is the fundamental point of difference between theism of the Christian kind and Yoga philosophy. Yoga considers the individual pure and divine while in Christianity, the individual is a sinner who must accept Christ’s refuge in order to be freed from his sin and be accepted into heaven.
So when you say that…
it has nothing whatsoever to do with philosophy. It is just a tool in your hands, the tool does not care whether you are Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, Jain, or otherwise.
…you are referring only to asanas and disregarding the philosophy aspect. That does not mean that the philosophy is not there.
“There are now more than a dozen educated Hindu members on this forum who hold this position strongly”
That is what it means to be dogmatic. And that one is thinking of oneself as a “Hindu” still reflects that one continues constructing masks over one’s true nature.
“Thus any attempt to de-link Yoga from Hinduism will be thwarted”
Again, the word yoga just means Union. It has been spoken of time and time again by the Hindus - that everything in existence arises out of “Brahman”. If everything arises out of Brahman and is Brahman, then what are you doing discriminating between this and that, between what is “Hindu” and what is not ?
vimoh,
“Yoga is most certainly philosophy. And it is so on multiple levels. The most basic level being the idea that a person can themselves become one with the paramAtmA without having to rely on the benevolence of an up-there and out-there deity.”
That is not a philosophy - that is a penetrating insight which arises from seeing into things as they are. To see into one’s own true nature is a living experience - and to say that this is a philosophy is just like saying that gravity is a philosophy. Philosophy is entirely different, the approach of the philosopher is to think about Truth. And in one’s thinking about it, one has gone dimensions away from the reality. The whole approach of the yogic sciences is not to think about it, but to see the Truth, and the transformation that arises out of direct seeing. That is why Patanjali has said it quite simply that “Yoga” is bringing the activity of the mind to a stillness. Vyasa has said that “Yoga is Samadhi”. What have said has nothing to do with philosophy - but with a certain state of consciousness. Any method that leads towards this is a method towards Yoga. A person who practices the method is a yogi. Yes, even Gautama Buddha who was not a Hindu was a yogi, as was Mahavira.
[QUOTE=AmirMourad;60055]“There are now more than a dozen educated Hindu members on this forum who hold this position strongly”
That is what it means to be dogmatic. And that one is thinking of oneself as a “Hindu” still reflects that one continues constructing masks over one’s true nature.
“Thus any attempt to de-link Yoga from Hinduism will be thwarted”
Again, the word yoga just means Union. It has been spoken of time and time again by the Hindus - that everything in existence arises out of “Brahman”. If everything arises out of Brahman and is Brahman, then what are you doing discriminating between this and that, between what is “Hindu” and what is not ?[/QUOTE]
Everything does arise out of Brahman Amir. No doubt about that. But while the universe is unity it is also diversity.
The nature of the universe apart, we do not live in a world where everyone believes in universalism. There are serious clashes of civilisation going on all the time. Indians have had an open society for a long time. But having the door open also means that people with less than honourable intentions stroll in, pick up things they like and walk out and sell them. The crass commercialisation of Yoga in America is a case in point.
There is a line between acceptance and blind acceptance. That line is what Surya and others are emphasising here.
[QUOTE=AmirMourad;60057]vimoh,
“Yoga is most certainly philosophy. And it is so on multiple levels. The most basic level being the idea that a person can themselves become one with the paramAtmA without having to rely on the benevolence of an up-there and out-there deity.”
That is not a philosophy - that is a penetrating insight which arises from seeing into things as they are. To see into one’s own true nature is a living experience - and to say that this is a philosophy is just like saying that gravity is a philosophy. Philosophy is entirely different, the approach of the philosopher is to think about Truth. And in one’s thinking about it, one has gone dimensions away from the reality. The whole approach of the yogic sciences is not to think about it, but to see the Truth, and the transformation that arises out of direct seeing. That is why Patanjali has said it quite simply that “Yoga” is bringing the activity of the mind to a stillness. Vyasa has said that “Yoga is Samadhi”. What have said has nothing to do with philosophy - but with a certain state of consciousness. Any method that leads towards this is a method towards Yoga. A person who practices the method is a yogi. Yes, even Gautama Buddha who was not a Hindu was a yogi, as was Mahavira.[/QUOTE]
Yoga is indeed a science. But there is a philosophy behind it as well. You seem to think that philosophy and science are separate boxes full of different things. But truth is, all science has philosophy behind it. Even western science has the philosophy of materialism behind it. The two can’t exist separately.
A science exists because of certain motivations. The search for the beginning of life on Earth is science. But the philosophy behind is the same as that which powers many religions – the quest for origins.
Your point is beginning to become clearer – you are disassociating Yoga from it’s philosophical roots. The mistake is obvious to anyone who understand the Hindu way of life.
"Everything does arise out of Brahman Amir. No doubt about that. "
Yes, there should be tremendous doubt about it. Whatever has not entered into your own direct perception should not be accepted, it does not matter who says it.
“But while the universe is unity it is also diversity”
These are all one-sided interpretations of the intellect. Existence is neither “dual” or “non-dual”, it is simply inexpressible. In fact they cannot exist without each other - the very idea of unity exists because of multiplicity, the very idea of the “non-dual” exists because of the dual, they cannot be separated.
“we do not live in a world where everyone believes in universalism.”
One either knows or does not know, there can be no room for belief.
“The crass commercialisation of Yoga in America is a case in point.”
The problem that has happened with yoga in the West is not because they are not following a philosophy. The earliest masters themselves were not following any philosophy or tradition. It is simply that the people who are transmitting are themselves in a deep sleep, neither have their taken the science to it’s innermost depth. Because the consciousness of the Western person is deeply identified with the body, they have turned yoga into a mere series of physical exercises for fitness.
[QUOTE=AmirMourad;60057]Any method that leads towards this is a method towards Yoga. A person who practices the method is a yogi. Yes, even Gautama Buddha who was not a Hindu was a yogi, as was Mahavira.[/QUOTE]
Gautama Buddha was as much a Hindu as Mahavira Jaina was. Hinduism is not a sect. It is a broad label applied to all Indic traditions. In any case, Buddha didn’t start a religion. Some scholars even say that Buddhism was a reformist movement inside Hinduism. Hindus do worship Buddha as an avatar of Vishnu after all.
Perhaps it would be useful at this stage to point out that the Hindu way many are advocating here is the broad civilisational quality that has guided India for millennia now. It is not a narrow cultish thing, nor a single sect. It is the Indian way of life, encompassing pluralism of spirit and philosophy.
“Yoga is indeed a science. But there is a philosophy behind it as well”
It seems one has trouble being mindful while reading messages. Buddhists have used yoga, Hindus have used yoga, Jains have used yoga, Sikhs have used yoga, and their philosophies are different. What you are referring to as the “philosophy” of yoga is not yoga - but organized religion. Because organized religion in the East has been combined with methods for transformation, it becomes very natural for many to come to the misunderstanding that the methods belong to the organized religion.
“You seem to think that philosophy and science are separate boxes full of different things. But truth is, all science has philosophy behind it. Even western science has the philosophy of materialism behind it”
That is why the approach of Western science is not scientific. The moment you start clinging to knowledge, you have become dogmatic - a veil has been raised over one’s eyes in such a way that one cannot see anything else beyond it. That can be seen in the history of science itself - time and time again the scientists had been forced to change their views because they had grown comfortable with certain assumptions and ideas for centuries. The scientists in this way have been just as dogmatic as the organized religions.
“you are disassociating Yoga from it’s philosophical roots.”
Yoga does not have philosophical roots - it has it’s roots in direct experience of Truth. Out of direct experience, certain masters and sages started speaking about their own discoveries according to their interpretation. Because the Truth cannot be transmitted through words, our words and descriptions are needed - not to transmit the Truth, but as a skillful means towards one’s direct experience. Everything that we say about it is nothing more than a finger pointing to the moon.
vimoh,
“Gautama Buddha was as much a Hindu as Mahavira Jaina was.”
If you mean “Hindu” in the sense of one who was living in a certain geographical location, then yes. But if you mean it in the sense of an organized religion - neither Gautama nor Mahavira were Hindus. In fact, that is why most of the Hindu sects at his time were against him, because he was teaching things which were absolutely contrary to what they had accepted for centuries. They were all speaking of “Atman” the self, Gautama was speaking of precisely the opposite, “Anatman”, no-self. They were all speaking about God - Gautama considered the very hypothesis of God as irrelevant. Because what is significant is not what one believes or disbelieves, what is relevant is to come to a direct insight as to the root causes of one’s sufferings at the level of the mind. Any means that will lead towards this will do. That is why he has said that his method is just a raft to cross to the other shore. Don’t cling to the raft, because the moment you start clinging to the raft, you will be very unwilling to move beyond it. That is his own direct experience - that Truth is inexpressible. And a being who is in communion with Truth is in communion with existence itself, one requires no philosophy as a substitute. His understanding was not of being a Hindu or a Buddhist, but of being a Buddha. Because whether you understand or do not understand, Truth is beyond both your understanding and not understanding.
“Hindus do worship Buddha as an avatar of Vishnu after all.”
If a man like Gautama Buddha himself knew of the situation, he would laugh about the whole thing.