Truth about yoga (a article for discussion)

Yoga Discussion General Yoga
#321

[QUOTE=vimoh;60001]You kind of went around the issue. So let me ask again with an example.

Sigmund Freud has an idea that anyone could have had. He works on it, refines it, writes a book explaining it, and devotes his whole life to it. He lectures on it, helps form courses on it, and popularises it. It’s not a creative idea mind it, it’s a psychological theory that applies to human psyche on the whole, not to a certain culture or a group of people.

Then time passes and the idea becomes part of popular culture. Many others refine it further and come up with extrapolations and related theories.

At the end of the day, would it be accurate to say that equating the theory with Sigmund Freud is foolish? Or that Freud just happened to have an idea that anyone could have had? Or that claiming that Freud started the whole thing is a mark of chauvinism?

I am still on the same track – that crediting the source is a mark of honesty. Turning the topic to mush with high-sounding spiritual-truth-talk is easy, but some people do care about historical fact.

I am not contesting your point that Yoga is universal and meant for all people. I am just frowning (only slightly) upon the zest with which some people try to de-link Yoga from its roots in India.[/QUOTE]

[B]A quick question[/B]: Does anyone know what was the map of India like, when the “Yoga system” was developed?? [B]Did the terms “Indian/Hindu” existed at the time of creation of Yoga or for that matter vedas and other Hindu ancient texts??[/B] I do know that there was no paper or anything like that to draw maps at that time, but I can tell you that around the start of Christianity, it far exceeded the current India and expanded into current Europe, China and Burma(as far as my history knowledge goes).

On one hand, [B]with some purpose[/B], the sages written in their texts that the vedas and other forms of so called “Hindu” knowledge have come directly from Brahma (the creator in Hindu tradition). The reason, why sages did say that is to remind everyone that knowledge, however acquired, is universal and Godly in nature and does not have personified creators/inventors/discoverers.
[B]If the Hindu sages are so humble, why we need to link Hinduism with all sorts of related knowledge like Yoga, Ayurveda, Nyaya (logic)…??[/B]

To specifically answer your “Sigmund Freud” question: How was he able to develop his idea into science? What I mean is, what was his relationship to the external world and his society? Who taught him the basic education? Who provided food, shelter and clothing. I know, he had purchased them…who provided him with earning capacity?? The answer may be the society he lived in. Hence, he has not done it alone…He was helped in the process, by fellow human beings who are part of the universe.
If Sigmund Freud had escaped into space or went into a forest cave and came to earth with his discovery/invention, one can assume that he did it alone. The point is that human society (for that matter, non-human beings as well) are interdependent to the extent that the whole thing is called “Universal Spirit” or “ParamAtma”. So whatever knowledge/possessions one have, they have source in the God and not in “some-ism” or “some-person”.

In fact, in Geeta, Lord Krishna says, “all actions are mine, you are just the doer”.

#322

To add to the point which vimoh is making about how Yoga cannot be delinked from Hinduism. The reasons I shall summarize:

  1. Yoga is based on Hindu philosophy(Samkhya-Yoga)
  2. Yoga originated within Hinduism in Vedic times
  3. All Hindu scriptures teach Yoga philosophy and/or practice(Gita, Shiva Samhita, Agamas/tantras, Yogavasistha, Upanishads, Vedas, Yoga sutras, Hatha Yoga Pradipaka)
  4. Hindu religious practices are Yoga(yamas, niyamas, asanas, pranyama, dharana, dhyana)
  5. All Hindu gurus teach Yoga
  6. Yoga was taught by Hindu gods like Krishna and Shiva
  7. Hundreds of the asanas are invocations to Hindu gods, like Natarajasana, Surya Namaskar and AUM chanting is the Hindu sound of creation.

7 wonders of why you should not wonder why Yoga is inseparable from Hinduism :smiley:

#323

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;60010]To add to the point which vimoh is making about how Yoga cannot be delinked from Hinduism. The reasons I shall summarize:

  1. Yoga is based on Hindu philosophy(Samkhya-Yoga)
  2. Yoga originated within Hinduism in Vedic times
  3. All Hindu scriptures teach Yoga philosophy and/or practice(Gita, Shiva Samhita, Agamas/tantras, Yogavasistha, Upanishads, Vedas, Yoga sutras, Hatha Yoga Pradipaka)
  4. Hindu religious practices are Yoga(yamas, niyamas, asanas, pranyama, dharana, dhyana)
  5. All Hindu gurus teach Yoga
  6. Yoga was taught by Hindu gods like Krishna and Shiva
  7. Hundreds of the asanas are invocations to Hindu gods, like Natarajasana, Surya Namaskar and AUM chanting is the Hindu sound of creation.

[B]7 wonders of why you should not wonder why Yoga is inseparable from Hinduism[/B] :D[/QUOTE]

Some people on this forum, are eligible for “8th wonder” :stuck_out_tongue:
(Or, is it zero-th wonder, because, zero is “linked” to Hinduism.)

#324

Surya, great post…Can not stop to get amused…:slight_smile:
You are one real entertainer for this forum…Hats off…!!!

Comments below, please…!!

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;60010]To add to the point which vimoh is making about how Yoga cannot be delinked from Hinduism. The reasons I shall summarize:

  1. Yoga is based on Hindu philosophy(Samkhya-Yoga)
    [B][As in, Internet is based on Google][/B]
  2. Yoga originated within Hinduism in Vedic times.
  3. All Hindu scriptures teach Yoga philosophy and/or practice(Gita, Shiva Samhita, Agamas/tantras, Yogavasistha, Upanishads, Vedas, Yoga sutras, Hatha Yoga Pradipaka)
  4. Hindu religious practices are Yoga(yamas, niyamas, asanas, pranyama, dharana, dhyana)
  5. All Hindu gurus teach Yoga
    [B][However, All Yogis may not be Hindus.So, there can be non-Hindu Yogis. Since there are non-Hindu Yogis, Yoga and Hinduism are not related/linked. QED… :)][/B]
  6. Yoga was taught by Hindu gods like Krishna and Shiva
    [B]Like a noble Laurette, teaching alphabets…Gods must be real crazy…:slight_smile: [/B]
  7. Hundreds of the asanas are invocations to Hindu gods, like Natarajasana, Surya Namaskar and AUM chanting is the Hindu sound of creation.
    [B]Googling is a new asana added recently to worship internet Hindu Gods.[/B]
    7 wonders of why you should not wonder why Yoga is inseparable from Hinduism :D[/QUOTE]
#325

Did the terms "Indian/Hindu" existed at the time of creation of Yoga or for that matter vedas and other Hindu ancient texts??[/B]

No, because the term "Indian/Hindu" is a foreign term first used by Arabs to describe the people beyond the river Sindhu. This term was later adopted because of its common usage. The term we had for India was Bharata and in more ancient times it was called Aryavarta

I do know that there was no paper or anything like that to draw maps at that time, but I can tell you that around the start of Christianity, it far exceeded the current India and expanded into current Europe, China and Burma(as far as my history knowledge goes).

No it didn't. The largest India has ever been is modern India+afghanistan+afghanistan+bangladesh under the Mauraya empire. Ashoka united all of India under one banner. In the times of Mahabharata India was divided into many states.

On one hand, with some purpose, the sages written in their texts that the vedas and other forms of so called "Hindu" knowledge have come directly from Brahma (the creator in Hindu tradition). The reason, why sages did say that is to remind everyone that knowledge, however acquired, is universal and Godly in nature and does not have personified creators/inventors/discoverers.

Nobody is disputing that Yoga is not universal. It is a science like physics is a science. However, this science was discovered by the Hindus and developed by the Hindus to a large extent. Just as physics has been developed to a large extent by the West.

Even the Sages acknowledge the linage of gurus going back into far antiquity. To not acknowledge your sources is plagiarism and is considered theft in Yoga and contravenes the yama of asteya.

All we are arguing here is that the origins of Yoga and its inextricable link with Hinduism be acknowledged. Yoga cannot be separated from Hinduism without completely decontextualising it.

If the Hindu sages are so humble, why we need to link Hinduism with all sorts of related knowledge like Yoga, Ayurveda, Nyaya (logic)...??

Because they are Hindu philosophy. All Hindu darshanas are directly based on the Vedas. Ayurveda for example evolves from the Atharvaveda. All of Hinduism concepts and beliefs like atman, brahman, purusha, prakriti, shakti, kundalini, jiva, moksha, samadhi, yoga, chit, ahamkarama, mahabhutas, manas, tattva etc etc are all developed by the Hindu schools of philosophy.

Hinduism is a philosophical religion. I would actually say scientific religion, because the darshanas are more closer in character to science than philosophy.

In fact, in Geeta, Lord Krishna says, "all actions are mine, you are just the doer".

Yes, I know that ultimately everything is one blah blah blah. Such sophistry is not useful and practical though. The fact remains that historically Yoga comes from Hinduism. It is blatant as a fact as the steam engine being invented in England is.

#326

[QUOTE=yaram;60009]To specifically answer your “Sigmund Freud” question: How was he able to develop his idea into science? What I mean is, what was his relationship to the external world and his society? Who taught him the basic education? Who provided food, shelter and clothing. I know, he had purchased them…who provided him with earning capacity?? The answer may be the society he lived in. Hence, he has not done it alone…He was helped in the process, by fellow human beings who are part of the universe.
If Sigmund Freud had escaped into space or went into a forest cave and came to earth with his discovery/invention, one can assume that he did it alone. The point is that human society (for that matter, non-human beings as well) are interdependent to the extent that the whole thing is called “Universal Spirit” or “ParamAtma”. So whatever knowledge/possessions one have, they have source in the God and not in “some-ism” or “some-person”.

In fact, in Geeta, Lord Krishna says, “all actions are mine, you are just the doer”.[/QUOTE]

That is faulty logic as far as idea acknowledgment is concerned. If one goes by what you are saying, no kind of intellectual credit ownership would apply. Anyone could hijack anyone else’s idea arguing that it is all universal knowledge anyway. This is just faulty reasoning in order to justify idea theft.

#327

[QUOTE=yaram;60013]Surya, great post…Can not stop to get amused…:slight_smile:
You are one real entertainer for this forum…Hats off…!!![/quote]

I said nothing entertaining. I just mentioned the facts, which honest people would address. You are not even attempting to have a sensible and mature discussion troll.

All the comments you made are fallacies or make no sense.

  1. Yoga is based on Hindu philosophy(Samkhya-Yoga)
    [As in, Internet is based on Google]

Your comment makes no sense. The internet is not derived from google, google is just a part of the internet. However, Yoga is directly derived from Hindu philosophy of Samkhya-Yoga. Its cosmology, psychology, categories, theories and metaphysics and practice is all developed by these Hindu philosophical schools.

[However, All Yogis may not be Hindus.So, there can be non-Hindu Yogis. Since there are non-Hindu Yogis, Yoga and Hinduism are not related/linked. QED… ]

You cannot be a yogi and not be Hindu. There is no such thing as a Christian yogi for instance just as there is no such thing as a Sikh atheist.

  1. Yoga was taught by Hindu gods like Krishna and Shiva
    Like a noble Laurette, teaching alphabets…Gods must be real crazy…

Krishna is known as Yogeshwar(lord of yoga) and Shiva is known as the first teacher of Yoga in his tradition. The agamas are all discourses by Lord Shiva explaining Yoga. While the Gita is by Lord Krishna which is a discourse on Yoga.

Googling is a new asana added recently to worship internet Hindu Gods.

Makes no sense troll.

#328

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;60016]I said nothing entertaining. I just mentioned the facts, which honest people would address. You are not even attempting to have a sensible and mature discussion troll.

All the comments you made are fallacies or make no sense.

Your comment makes no sense. The internet is not derived from google, google is just a part of the internet. However, Yoga is directly derived from Hindu philosophy of Samkhya-Yoga. Its cosmology, psychology, categories, theories and metaphysics and practice is all developed by these Hindu philosophical schools.

You cannot be a yogi and not be Hindu. There is no such thing as a Christian yogi for instance just as there is no such thing as a Sikh atheist.

Krishna is known as Yogeshwar(lord of Lord) and Shiva is known as the first teacher of Yoga in his tradition. The agamas are all discourses by Lord Shiva explaining Yoga. While the Gita is by Lord Krishna which is a discourse on Yoga.

Makes no sense troll.[/QUOTE]

I think that when your opponent has nothing left but sarcasm, it is safe to assume you have won the argument.

Congratulations SuryaDeva! :slight_smile:

Those who know, argue with facts. Those who have to fall back on sarcasm (and bad sarcasm at that) never knew anything worth debating to begin with. One could verify all SuryaDeva is saying by study and argument, but some people would rather shoot their mouth off than engage in intelligent debate.

#329

Those who know, argue with facts. Those who have to fall back on sarcasm (and bad sarcasm at that) never knew anything worth debating to begin with. One could verify all SuryaDeva is saying by study and argument, but some people would rather shoot their mouth off than engage in intelligent debate.

Certainly. Make no mistake that our opponent here is stupidity, not intelligent debaters with an argument to argue.(Heck one of them claims to be the Buddha!)

You can review all threads such as the 1300+ posts mega thread, “Is Yoga Hinduism” and you will find the same. You will find that while the side for the argument that Yoga is Hinduism provides evidence, gives references and sources and cites scholarship, the other side does nothing of the sort, does not engage with any of the argument and resorts to sarcasm, personal attacks or sophistic arguments like the ones you witnessed, “Were all one, can we just get on” or “It’s universal” or “It’s just a label”

Like I said our opponent is stupidity.

#330

[B]It is better to be a stupid than to be a stone[/B] - Anonymous
"Attachment/Bondage/Identification of forms is the source of sorrow" - Geeta !!

#331

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;60018]You will find that while the side for the argument that Yoga is Hinduism provides evidence, gives references and sources and cites scholarship, the other side does nothing of the sort, does not engage with any of the argument and resorts to sarcasm, personal attacks or sophistic arguments like the ones you witnessed, “Were all one, can we just get on” or “It’s universal” or “It’s just a label”[/QUOTE]

Indeed. I wonder if these same people argue that the Kaballah is not a part of, or did not originate with, Judaism. It’s really the same kind of argument. These people, for whatever reason, either don’t want to be associated with Hinduism, or have some kind of hatred for Hinduism…so they start there and try to disprove that Yoga has any relation to it…but fail to present even the tiniest bit of evidence to support their position.

#332

[QUOTE=BryonMorrigan;60022]Indeed. I wonder if these same people argue that the Kaballah is not a part of, or did not originate with, Judaism. It’s really the same kind of argument. These people, for whatever reason, either don’t want to be associated with Hinduism, or have some kind of hatred for Hinduism…so they start there and try to disprove that Yoga has any relation to it…[B].but fail to present even the tiniest bit of evidence to support their position.[/B][/QUOTE]

[B]There can not be evidences for everything. [/B]
Can one show me evidence of Lord Shiva teaching Yoga, as ‘Surya’ (alias?) posted?? Still better, do we have a YouTube video for that yoga teaching session by Lord Shiva or Krishna?

Can you show me evidence of “All Hindu gurus teach Yoga” statement with all their names and list of students???

Can you see the atom and its sub-particles to prove their existence? We have only indirect inferences of atomic models. There can not be direct evidence for the existence of nuclear particles.

That is why, I said earlier, regarding the compatibility of Yoga with Christianity is to be taken by a person and can not be imposed.

When the wise ancient sages has given every credit to God(or Creator), what is the “ego-problem” of “pseudo-Hindus”???

#333

Hello!

We have some four problematic aspects here:

  1. Most people who do “Yoga” actually do Asanas. That’s some sort of gymnastic or workout. They do not associate anything spiritual or religious with “Yoga”, or maybe a little bit, cuz it’s sorta en vogue. If they’re being told that what they do is a foreign religion that they know little to nothing about and that they now should kinda like “bow to” or even would have to convert to or adopt, they won’t.

  2. The Yoga techniques of the eight limbs of Yoga as layed out in the Yoga Sutras work without any cultural context. I can even follow the Yamas and Niyamas without any cultural context, they are “supra-denominational”, beyond confession. Asanas, as said, are gymnastics, Pranayama are breathing techniques, the following stages are even designed to detach myself from any concept, thought, idea, etc. Therefore, I do not have to associate them with Hinduism at all, for example do I not have to read Vedas or the Gita or whatever scripture, I don’t even have to read the Yoga Sutras, I can pick the techniques up without any context. Also, many of the techniques have counterparts in other systems, for example in that of far east, China, Japan, but also “even” in very modern systems created in the West - types of meditation, concentraion, breathing techniques, and so forth. There are other opinions on this, but these are: Opinions, and not universal truths.

  3. Yoga already is a vast and complex system, Hinduism is even vaster and more complex. Both terms are umbrella-terms that collect a wide spectrum of ideas, philosophies, religions and “even” sciences. The implication that one would have to get to understand all that to be able to practice Yoga successfully is both wrong (in my opionion) and scary, because it takes a couple of lifetimes to read all the scritpures, let alone understand them all.

  4. Discussion on the subject often happen exactly as in this thread. Hindus claim that Yoga is their (“our”) system. It belongs to them. They deserve credit for the system. Who practices Yoga without converting to Hinduism and calling themselves “Hindu” has to thank these persons. Cuz they are Hindus. Have a red line on their forehead or come from India. Often, they behave aggressive and arrogant, sarcastic and smug. As if they had invented Yoga or added the tiniest bit to the system. In fact, though, they did nothing, they added nothing, they developed nothing, invented nothing. They just say “I’m Hindu”, which is perfectly irrelevant and uninteresting. Many don’t have a regular Asana/Pranayama/meditation-practice, and don’t even follow the Yamas and Niyamas. And these people demand those who actually practice Yoga-techniques every day to say “oh thank you, you awesome Hindu, for the great gift you granted me”. That’s obviously hilarious, and all such folks create is resentment. Indeed when confronted like that, Yoga-practicioners will look for arguments and ways to dissociate Yoga from Hinduism. Because of these people.

Finally: I have not ever met anyone who did not know that Yoga comes from India. It does. Everybody knows. Noone denies that. Great Indians brought it to the rest of the world, they are to be adored and admired, as I adore and admire B.K.S. Iyengar, whose system I follow. This is a great man with a great mind and he is widely recognized as one: “In 2004, Iyengar was named one of the 100 most influential people in the world by Time Magazine.[4][5]”

#334

A GENUINE PEARL OF WISDOM :I have the honor of having the Final word on this subject from the highest of authority of which there can be no doubt. It is the ultimate of the ultimate : My Mother. Without any idea what she might say ( especially since she is in most issues a conservative and 87 years old )and since she is a devout donation giving Catholic avid reader of the Catholic Digest etc. I asked out of the blue,straight out " Mom, can non Christians get to Heaven ? " , she immediately said with a look like are you crazy , " Of Course ". ( BTW her mind is as sharp or sharper than mine which may not be saying a lot, I know she can whoop me six ways to sundown on any kind of word game ). She said if she could convince someone to worship a matchstick and they really believed in the matchstick and acted accordingly- they’d go to Heaven. " And that’s what Father Peter told me once and he’s a smart priest " I hope this illustrates that it’s not just new age old hippies like me that can universalize Christianity as inclusive and loving, someone who had 10 kids, worked her whole life in the family grocery store and raised us- had no time for anything personal except for gardening ,didn’t go to college, didn’t read anything much beyond the Bible and gardening and health books, and who is usually thinking that the world is going downhill except for her kids which is 99% of all her concerns, Someone like this ( Pearl is her name ) immediately without hesitation at one and the same time identifies herself deeply as a Christian but extends salvation to everyone. I wasn’t just being optimistic when I said that Christians don’t really go in for all that heathen business. That’s back a few years, like everyone else , they evolve. I hope we all can evolve I believe in Ahimsa but don’t nobody say a bad word about my Mother or I’ll get ya’ if I have leave my body and go around the world. Namaste

#335

A GENUINE PEARL OF WISDOM :I have the honor of having the Final word on this subject from the highest of authority of which there can be no doubt. It is the ultimate of the ultimate : My Mother. Without any idea what she might say ( especially since she is in most issues a conservative and 87 years old )and since she is a devout donation giving Catholic avid reader of the Catholic Digest etc. I asked out of the blue,straight out " Mom, can non Christians get to Heaven ? " , she immediately said with a look like are you crazy , " Of Course ". ( BTW her mind is as sharp or sharper than mine which may not be saying a lot, I know she can whoop me six ways to sundown on any kind of word game ). She said if she could convince someone to worship a matchstick and they really believed in the matchstick and acted accordingly- they’d go to Heaven. " And that’s what Father Peter told me once and he’s a smart priest " I hope this illustrates that it’s not just new age old hippies like me that can universalize Christianity as inclusive and loving, someone who had 10 kids, worked her whole life in the family grocery store and raised us- had no time for anything personal except for gardening ,didn’t go to college, didn’t read anything much beyond the Bible and gardening and health books, and who is usually thinking that the world is going downhill except for her kids which is 99% of all her concerns, Someone like this ( Pearl is her name ) immediately without hesitation at one and the same time identifies herself deeply as a Christian but extends salvation to everyone. I wasn’t just being optimistic when I said that Christians don’t really go in for all that heathen business. That’s back a few years, like everyone else , they evolve. I hope we all can evolve I believe in Ahimsa but don’t nobody say a bad word about my Mother or I’ll get ya’ if I have leave my body and go around the world. Namaste

Your mother may have softened her position and is not following Christianity literally anymore. But the Bible is very clear about this:

“He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who
does not believe will be condemned.” (Mark 16:16 RSV)

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the
life; no one comes to the Father, but by me.
(John 14:6 RSV)

#336

[QUOTE=Quetzalcoatl;60024]Hello!

We have some four problematic aspects here:

///Four points…

Finally: I have not ever met anyone who did not know that Yoga comes from India. It does. Everybody knows. Noone denies that. Great Indians brought it to the rest of the world, they are to be adored and admired, as I adore and admire B.K.S. Iyengar, whose system I follow. This is a great man with a great mind and he is widely recognized as one: “In 2004, Iyengar was named one of the 100 most influential people in the world by Time Magazine.[4][5]”[/QUOTE]

Well written and thank you very much for that…(I take some advice from this post as well).

#337

When the west first got in touch with India and her traditions, it found a lot of it to be sheer barbarism. This was because these traditions were evaluated on the basis of western / Judaeo-Christian biases. So they set about the wholly Christian business of "saving people from these perceived evils. Meditation was thought to be escapism from the material world and the western colonisers saved Indians by “gifting” them an education system that was materialistic and "rational. But those wretched Indians kept their evil traditions alive even though the western man will have none of that nonsense. Christianity was obviously better and made more sense.

Later, when the west became aware of Yoga and Ayurveda and their benefits, they decided that it was wholly unfit that Indians should have had something like this. So in a wholly Christian fashion, they set about the task of “saving” these traditions from India. Something as awesome as Yoga needed to be refined by the superior west, not those chauvinistic Indians.

First they were saving Indians from Indian culture. Then they were saving Indian culture from Indians. They think they were and are “liberating” Yoga from the evil clutches of Hinduism. They are freeing India’s traditions and making them available to the world, for the greater good for mankind and the universe. All of a sudden, Christianity started seeming perfectly conducive to the Yogic path and words from the Bible started to be re-interpreted to fit this new paradigm. Soon enough, it became apparent that Christianity was Yogic all along.

Plenty of people imagine themselves on a high moral ground in this debate. They are spiritually and culturally superior from the chauvinists who seek to claim the origin of a cultural tradition (not its practice mind you) as theirs. They are all about the sophistication of universalism, the high-mindedness of global well-being, and the maturity of a saviour. The “others” on the other hand, are just a bunch of petty ethnocentric Hindoos who can’t possibly see the world through their lofty point of view.

[I]I find the sheer arrogance of this disgusting. [/I]

#338

[QUOTE=TonyTamer;60026]A GENUINE PEARL OF WISDOM: She said if she could convince someone to worship a matchstick and they really believed in the matchstick and acted accordingly- they’d go to Heaven.[/QUOTE]

That is some sort of enlightenment. These are the same similar words which were written as poem by Yogi Vemana (an Indian rishi of 16th Century) after he reached a state enlightenment.

In fact, idol worship that is so common in India, is an example of this.

#339

Sarva… did you miss the part about Father Peter ? Americans have been known for a long time not to be literalists- most Christians here accept that the world was not created in 7 literal days.

#340

“Ignore what Amir is saying, Amir babbles on in every thread stating things as if they are absolute facts because he claims he is the Buddha, thus everything he says is emanation of truth.”

The science of magic says so.

I hope everyone here is a believer.