Truth about yoga (a article for discussion)

Yoga Discussion General Yoga
#301

yaram,

Yoga is a method which is compatible with any human being in the same way that you do not need to be a Christian or a Jew to understand how to use a telephone. What Surya Deva and people who are thinking along similar lines are trying to do is simply to feel superior to others by affirming their belief systems. It is out of fear, one is desiring for comfort and security because without a hook to grasp onto for support, one feels as though one is going to be drifting into the unknown. And the unknown naturally provokes fear. That is the reason why anybody clings to anything whatsoever, it is essentially a fear driven state.

#302

Amirbuster:

blah blah blah blah :smiley:

There is not just a single person who is Indian, there are 1.2 billion of them :smiley: Yeah, I know it is a label, yes I know language is limited blah blah blah :smiley: Get real.

#303

The fact remains the Christian religion is not compatible with Yoga. No matter which way you spin it you will not be able to overcome the facts that the philosophy of practice of Yoga is in mutual opposition with philosophy and practice of Christianity.

#304

“No matter which way you spin it you will not be able to overcome the facts that the philosophy of practice of Yoga is in mutual opposition with philosophy and practice of Christianity.”

That is true, as there is no place in mainstream Christianity for the expansion of consciousness, nor is it possible that the source of existence itself is already within you, though on the other hand it has been said that “God is Omnipresent”. Even in the very roots of the religion - God had prohibited Adam and Eve to eat from the Tree of Eternal Life. And as Christianity has already accepted the hypothesis of God as a belief, it is impossible for a Christian to investigate into the search for Truth unless he puts his beliefs aside. Because if one is really interested in any scientific inquiry, one should not assume anything whatsoever. Otherwise, if one enters the search with an assumption, one is simply going to seek confirmation for one’s own ideas and beliefs. And the mind is such, that it will see whatever it wants to see. That is what these “prophets” of the monotheistic religions have been doing, they have been chasing after figments of their own imagination.

But seeing that most Christians do not even follow their own religion as they should - having sex before marriage and doing all kinds of things which are “sinful”, then I do not see the problem why it would be problematic for the average Christian to start practicing the methods for the expansion of consciousness. Their religion is already dead, and in their experience they know it very well that their beliefs have not managed to bring oneself to a contentment.

#305

The esoteric knowledge of the energetic field of the body is well spread in various cultures and prerequisite purifications of body and soul are also necessarily part of that. It’s there in the Mayan, Chinese, Laplander, Druid, Pacific Islanders and African cultures. In Africa a medecine man is called a sangoma and they must go through years of training which includes daily purges and use of herbs etc. to reach a state where they are in tune with the spirit world. Though I’m sure there are many fakirs ( pun intended ). It’s a traditional that has long roots . Science says that to the best of their findings humans emerged from Africa and obviouly stayed there as well. So possibly we are their spiritual ancestors also. The 8 branches of yoga are for purification of mind body and soul , the yamas and niyamas are a moral code, and there are paralells there too, prayer and contemplation are also widespread. It is possible to be raised a Christian, believe in the divinity of Christ from human origins and seek naught but the presence of God as a religious goal. I am proof of that. I don’t have to be actually Hindu- though I feel a part of all religions- the mystical part- of which Christianity has plenty. I don’t consider myself any particular religion and revere those enlightened souls from any and all traditions. There’s a famous Hindu whose book I read a long time ago but whose name escapes me ( Govinda ? ) who had a spontaneous kundalini rising and enlightenment. The phenomena is by no means segregated to Hindus though. Kundalini rising ( called other things ) have been reported in every esoteric tradition- with all kinds of people; people here on these blogs I’ve read in the past have some experience thereby. Kundalini rising has been said to be the heart of the matter of yoga, the actual union, the rest is poetry and flowers strewing the path. Also , the energetic field is manipulated with exercises in various cultures too. Yoga originates with Hinduism- OK, yoga belongs to Hinduism- No. Yoga belongs to everybody and the Christian will not have trouble assimilating Kundalini rising once he gets to the point that his body is ready. Yaram I like your if then anti-logic, very good. Namaste and God Bless, Aloha, Vaya con Dios

#306

Will try to make some sense here.

Christianity, historically has not been the most spiritual of paths. There have indeed been many solid yogis in the Christian tradition, but them have been neither mainstream, nor have they been accepted by the Church as saintly figures. Some of them have indeed been called heretics.

Having said that, in more recent times, there have been efforts to interpret Christianity and its teachings in more mature ways so as to bring down the levels of intolerance that have marked the path of Christ’s followers for a long time. I believe this to be a good thing and if these efforts succeed in making Christianity something of spiritual value, then all the more power to these efforts.

Yoga, most importantly, has been recognised in the west as being something of value – health-wise and spirit-wise. This again is a good thing. Yoga is indeed universal and meant for all human beings and if more people take to it, then nothing can be better.

I feel that Christians who seek to claim that Yoga is as Christian as it is Hindu/Indian, while they may seem to be of the belief that they are universalists, are actually acting out of a certain amount of parochialism and also a certain disdain for historical fact.

Being a Yoga enthusiast is all good and fine, but de-linking Yoga from Hinduism is foolish. Especially when you look at the historical paths the west and the east have taken in order to reach where they are now. Christianity’s march of victory has been anything but universalist (unless you understand universalism to be a universal disdain for anything and anyone non-Christian). By contrast, Indian civilisation (some would call it Hindu civilisation) has been a product of the yogic way of thinking – that all humans are divine, that all things are god, and that the truth is one no matter what name you call it by.

Hindus worship gods who were yogis, Hindu gods have spoken of Yoga, Hindu history has plenty of material to attest to the fact that Yoga was born in India, was refined in India, was practiced in India and was exported from India.

To deny the roots of Yoga in India (here I must add that I do not think everyone on this thread has been doing so deliberately) is not only foolish, it is downright misleading.

What Indians are seeking is not to make Yoga exclusive to Hinduism. All they want is that historical truth be acknowledged. It’s not views, it’s not opinions, it’s not beliefs. It’s simple old historical fact. Yoga is Hindu because that is where it came from. It may have come from elsewhere, but it didn’t. That is what this is about.

#307

The point is there’s a higher place beyond religions and good people will get there by hook , crook or yoga. At that point they will be neither Christian or Hindu, they will be realized as what they are.

#308

[QUOTE=TonyTamer;59982]The point is there’s a higher place beyond religions and good people will get there by hook , crook or yoga. At that point they will be neither Christian or Hindu, they will be realized as what they are.[/QUOTE]

That goes without saying Tony. But this is a historical point that is supported by much evidence. The higher-place-logic is sound and i agree with it. But as far as history is concerned, such logic is often misused and that is the reason many Indians are suspicious of it. Yoga belongs to Hindu tradition in the sense that India created it, but as far as ownership of the property variety goes, wisdom belongs to everyone who wants it.

Think of it as an intellectual property argument.

#309

“but de-linking Yoga from Hinduism is foolish”

To equate it with Hinduism is itself foolish. It happens to be the case that Hindus have discovered it, just as it happens to be the case that Einstein was a Jew. The methods of “yoga” simply refers to a science and technology for the expansion of consciousness - it has nothing whatsoever to do with philosophy, it is a methodology.

“Hindu history has plenty of material to attest to the fact that Yoga was born in India”

Yes, the people who discovered the science lived in India and its culture. Otherwise, if you declare it as something “Indian”, then you know nothing whatsoever of yoga. Your system does not care in the least whether you are Hindu, Christian, atheist - or whatever other nonsense one has gathered into ones mind. What is important is how to use this system as a tool for the expansion of awareness towards ones enlightenment.

“Hindus worship gods who were yogis, Hindu gods have spoken of Yoga”

These are human inventions.

“What Indians are seeking is not to make Yoga exclusive to Hinduism.”

It depends on whom you are speaking about. There are many people who are desiring to have a monopoly over the Truth - that their way is absolute. If the Vedas declares itself a revelation from God, it is not simply symbolic. And this attitude of having divine authority has been the attitude of the Brahmin priests for centuries, just as it has been the attitude with most priests who are working on behalf of their religion.

“Yoga is Hindu because that is where it came from”

Then general relativity must be Jewish because the idea came from a Jewish mind.
Truth is truth, it does not matter who discovers it. And if you are living in direct integration with Truth, then you are in a state of Yoga, the word itself simply means Union. Any method whatsoever which leads towards this is a method towards yoga.

#310

Waving a flag means you are a nationalist. Waving at Flag wavers means you are an internationalist. Yoga is as Indian as drums and dancing are to Africa. I don’t have a problem with that.

#311

vimoh,

“Yoga belongs to Hindu tradition in the sense that India created it”

The matter can become clear for you if you understand the difference between a creation and a discovery. That you can use concentration as a method to enter into meditation, is not a creation. It is a discovery. It takes on average two minutes of concentration upon a single object, without interruption, before the mind enters into meditation. This is not a creation, it is a discovery. That there are eight depths of meditative absorption before entering into samadhi, is again, a discovery. I want to make this clear -that yoga is a scientific phenomenon which has little to do with human invention. As as far as ones beliefs are concerned, one can invent whatever one wants. But as far as seeing into things as they are is concerned, you will have to come to a discovery.

#312

The esoteric knowledge of the energetic field of the body is well spread in various cultures and prerequisite purifications of body and soul are also necessarily part of that. It’s there in the Mayan, Chinese, Laplander, Druid, Pacific Islanders and African cultures. In Africa a medecine man is called a sangoma and they must go through years of training which includes daily purges and use of herbs etc. to reach a state where they are in tune with the spirit world. Though I’m sure there are many fakirs ( pun intended ). It’s a traditional that has long roots . Science says that to the best of their findings humans emerged from Africa and obviouly stayed there as well. So possibly we are their spiritual ancestors also.

Indeed, the understanding of energy fields, spirits, breath, altered states of consciousness and physical alchemy and magic was present in these cultures. However, they did not develop these understandings into a science. They remained at the mythological or mystical level. Again if these cultures had equivalent methods you would not be doing Yoga. Yoga is as you say the Newton of spirituality. There is nothing comparable to this science anywhere in the world.

The 8 branches of yoga are for purification of mind body and soul , the yamas and niyamas are a moral code, and there are paralells there too, prayer and contemplation are also widespread.

Yes there are similarities, but again other culturs have not developed them to the level of a science. Patanjali’s Yogasutras for instance gives scientific definitions and uses technical language like subject, object, senses, consciousness field, matter etc

Moreover, other cultures other than dharmic cultures do not have a scientific method of exploring the inner reality with meditation. On the contrary they rely on magic, herbs, potions and incantations. Nor have they given detailed descriptions of consciousness states and stages of meditation.

You are basically comparing your honda with a spaceship :smiley:

It is possible to be raised a Christian, believe in the divinity of Christ from human origins and seek naught but the presence of God as a religious goal. I am proof of that.

No, it is not, because then you are going against your religion. To not believe that Christ is the lord and saviour and the only way to salvation will disqualify you from being Christian.
If you told your beliefs to your local Church they would never approve.

#313

Surya,

“However, they did not develop these understandings into a science. They remained at the mythological or mystical level.”

The Egyptians were scientific, both with their approach the"material" as well as the “spiritual” dimension. The temples that they have built are themselves as evidence, which are filled with tremendous astronomical and mathematical accuracy, many of which were used as tools for initiation through sacred geometry in the same way that it had been used in the construction of temples in India.

Magic, if you properly understand the conditions which are necessary to bring about inner and outer changes, is a science.

#314

Yes, the people who discovered the science lived in India and its culture.

At least you acknowledge that much. :slight_smile: Your problem is with Hindus seek a monopoly on Yoga. My problem is with those whose actions go like this:

[ol]
[li]First, claim that knowledge is universal and belongs to everyone.
[/li][li]Then, focus on aspects of the refinement of this knowledge that are non-Indian.
[/li][li]Then, conclude that Yoga is more western than Indian.
[/li][li]Then, after a lot of time, accept that Yoga is western.
[/li][/ol]

It’s a bit like Americans pushing globalisation. They speak of one world and one culture, but when you get to the part about what this “world-culture” is going to be, it turns out to be western culture.

Indians, obviously are suspicious of such one-sided universalism.

You say Yoga, in spite of having been discovered by Indians is universal and belongs to all people. That Indians “just happened to discover it”. You say also that relativity is not a Jewish concept because a Jew discovered it.

The problem with that is that it is arbitrary. Would you say that the ancient Greeks should not be credited with their achievements because their ideas could have been had by anyone anywhere and they “just happened to have them”.

Give credit where credit is due.

#315

“First, claim that knowledge is universal and belongs to everyone”

It depends what you mean by knowledge. As far as Truth is concerned, truth is universal.

“Then, conclude that Yoga is more western than Indian.”

Yoga is neither Western or Eastern.

“Give credit where credit is due”

The credit lies simply in mans exploration into man, not in a tradition, because the source of the matter lies there. It was only once one had come to a certain direct innermost experience, that certain masters started speaking about their discoveries which over time, a need was felt to preserve this understanding through transmitting it to disciples and writing literature. Yoga is not Eastern or Western anymore than wisdom is Eastern or Western. If you come to know yourself, through and through, this is yoga. And the fact that one does not recognize this reflects that one has not been involved in the discipline at all. Otherwise it would have been impossible to say such a thing.

#316

The yogic sciences is a liberating gift to humanity, quite fascinating the spirituality that stabilized and came out of India, thankfully the sophisticated language of Sanskrit was in place to preserve comprehensive concepts and methods. Curiosity seems to be the fuel of science and all other disciplines of human study therefore proof of beginnings is worth examining but not necessary to move towards deeper awareness. My earthly roots are not from India but neither do I come from a different solar system, galaxy or dimension I was close enough to benefit, sure makes sense we’re eventually all heading the same place and absolute sense of reality makes the journey indisputable.

#317

Give credit where credit is due.

Absolutely, I have no problem saying the steam engine is a Western invention. It is born out of the Western empirical and capitalist tradition. Ironically, most people on this forum who are Westerners would have no problem either. If anybody here as much as suggested the steam engine might be something other than Western, they would respond as vehemently as Hindu members here responding here to their appropriation of Yoga using their pseudo-logic that Yoga is universal.

This attitude goes back 200 years in the West where all non-Western traditions, skills would be appropriated and added to the West in a manner similar to the Borg in Star Trek. Then they start to claim that it was always theirs and then try to trace it some obscure origins in Greece or Egypt. They did the same with the Muslims when Muslim knowledge started flowing into Europe during the Renaissance, they claimed all that knowledge was theirs anyway and it all came from Greece. The Muslims were simply preserving it :smiley: The truth was this Muslim knowledge was a combination of Persian, Sanskrit, Greek and Arabic traditions and the Muslims had also made many innovations themselves. However, the West only singled out the Greeks and then traced all of science, philosophy, technology, democracy, ethics to the Greeks.

Then later when they learned about the Indians and learned they had done it all before the Greeks and had even more developed traditions than modern traditions. Not only that it was clear that the Indians and Greeks shared ideas, they tried to make out the Indians learned from the Greeks. All of Indian logic, art, philosophy, medicine was a loan from the Greeks they contended. Ironically, when it was indisputable that the Indian knowledge was older than its Greekcounterpart, rather than conceding the Greeks learned it from the Indians, instead they argued it was parallel development!

Western civilisation is a highly arrogant, backwards and imperalistic civilisation. Imperialism did not end with the end of colonialism, but rather it continued in a more insidious form in the form of globalization by destroying all non-Western cultures in the world via information and economic wars. Hindus need to realise they are at war and fight back with intellectual warriors.

#318

You kind of went around the issue. So let me ask again with an example.

Sigmund Freud has an idea that anyone could have had. He works on it, refines it, writes a book explaining it, and devotes his whole life to it. He lectures on it, helps form courses on it, and popularises it. It’s not a creative idea mind it, it’s a psychological theory that applies to human psyche on the whole, not to a certain culture or a group of people.

Then time passes and the idea becomes part of popular culture. Many others refine it further and come up with extrapolations and related theories.

At the end of the day, would it be accurate to say that equating the theory with Sigmund Freud is foolish? Or that Freud just happened to have an idea that anyone could have had? Or that claiming that Freud started the whole thing is a mark of chauvinism?

I am still on the same track – that crediting the source is a mark of honesty. Turning the topic to mush with high-sounding spiritual-truth-talk is easy, but some people do care about historical fact.

I am not contesting your point that Yoga is universal and meant for all people. I am just frowning (only slightly) upon the zest with which some people try to de-link Yoga from its roots in India.

#319

[QUOTE=ray_killeen;59999]The yogic sciences is a liberating gift to humanity, quite fascinating the spirituality that stabilized and came out of India, thankfully the sophisticated language of Sanskrit was in place to preserve comprehensive concepts and methods. Curiosity seems to be the fuel of science and all other disciplines of human study therefore proof of beginnings is worth examining but not necessary to move towards deeper awareness. My earthly roots are not from India but neither do I come from a different solar system, galaxy or dimension I was close enough to benefit, sure makes sense we?re eventually all heading the same place and absolute sense of reality makes the journey indisputable.[/QUOTE]

Very sane thought Ray. But while I do believe in the ideal world you described, I do not think we live in it… yet. Our world is still very much a battle-ground of world views where civilisations clash on an everyday basis.

I speak from the Indian PoV because that is the part of the world I happened to be born in. I do not think you would have been a different person if you too had been born in India. But what also needs to be recognised is that not all people believe in universalism of your sort.

#320

am just frowning (only slightly) upon the zest with which some people try to de-link Yoga from its roots in India.

Ignore what Amir is saying, Amir babbles on in every thread stating things as if they are absolute facts because he claims he is the Buddha, thus everything he says is emanation of truth :smiley:
On the other hand, there are reasonable members on this forum, who will change their views in light of all the evidence provided. In fact since this debate first started when I joined this forum, many Yoga forum members have now acknowledged the Hindu roots of Yoga. This is because the evidence and arguments that have been presented so far in this debate are overwhelming. It is simply impossible to deny it without coming across as unreasonable.

There are now more than a dozen educated Hindu members on this forum who hold this position strongly. Thus any attempt to de-link Yoga from Hinduism will be thwarted. As long as there are 1 billion Hindus in this world such people will never succeed in de-linking Yoga from Hinduism. Official steps have already been undertaken by the Indian government in setting up the traditional knowledge database to prevent appropriation of Yoga and Ayurveda. This database will be translated into several languages and will be made available to all official patent, legal and educational bodies in the world.