Westerners approaching non-Western traditions

Yoga Discussion General Yoga
#1

A few discussions motivated this thread where I have seen what can only be explained as a blatant disregard for indigenous cultures. I have especially seen this in the attempts to completely remove Yoga from its indigenous culture and look at in a vacuum without the cultural context.

I think it is an absolutely good thing for people to learn about each others cultures and engage in the practices of others culture, but if you are going to approach a non-western culture you need to go with a “beginners mind” You are exploring an entirely different culture so the less you bring of your own the better.

When you learn about non-Western concepts like karma, yoga, ahamkara, gunas, avatars, buddhi, atman, brahman, purusha, prakriti, shiva, shakti, chakras, nadis, kundalini, chit vritti nirodha, klesha and aklesha, deva, sharira, manu, varna, vedas, pramana, siddhis, nirvana etc. Do not, and I repeat, do not try to understand them using your Western background. If you do you will most definitely misunderstand them. This is exactly what happend when the first Westerners studied Indian culture and they ended up writing very wrong things about what Indian culture was about, which was at completely at odds with the indigenous understanding .

I am seeing the same with many non-Hindu and Western people on this forum. Having a distorted understanding will lead to massive misconceptions which can even be dangerous. The German intellectuals strongly misunderstood the word “Aryan” and the result of that was positing the Aryan super race and this lead to the rise of Nazism. Others, have strongly misunderstood karma as some kind of fatalism. The result is people living lives where they make no effort but constantly blame their own selves for what they did in the past.

So in order to get things right here is what I recommend.

  1. A learned native has more credentials than any Westerner in speaking about their own culture. Seek out learned natives and listen attentively. Stop being arrogant thinking you know more than them about their own culture.

  2. Look at the context. You cannot study anything in isolation in any culture because it is informed by the cultural heritage, ethos and mythos.

  3. Look at the language. You cannot study the works of a culture in a language other than the language it was composed in. If it is translated make sure that every word is translated properly by cross-referencing translations especially done by natives themselves.

  4. Look at the underlying philosophy. All cultures will have a philosophy that underpins their practices. If you do not understand the philosophy you will not understand the practice.

If you cannot make these observances then you are clearly a cultural bigot and you do violence, even if unintentional to that culture. You will not make friends with them this way.

1 Like
#2

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;33465]You will not make friends with them this way.[/QUOTE]

Ironic, considering who said it.

#3

Surya Deva,

As someone who recently lived amongst indigenous people for a year, your post rings true. It was hard and I observed myself often feeling uncomfortable. I was lucky in that a local family took me and my partner under their wing and involved us in many traditional gatherings so we could interact more. AND they were patient with us :slight_smile:

May I ask what your ethic and cultural background is? Are you an Indian Hindu?

#4

I am Indian Hindu, but born and brought up in Britain. So I have had a good grounding in both Western and Hindu culture. My objective now is to go India for full immersion in authentic Yoga culture under a living master by the end of this year. I am on the look out for an authentic tradition and a living master.

#5

A nifty discourse on comparative religion was done up by Sri Yukteswar Giri.

It is called [I]The Holy Science[/I]. Yukteswar knows whats up…!

It is my view that all religions are the same - in essence.

Cross study of vedas/sanatana dharma/upanishads/shastras and so on, the abrahamic religions, kabballah, buddhadharma, jainism, the tao, and so on the esoterics and so on will increase jnana and therefore discrimination.

That said as Krishna said . . . “above all things be a yogi.”

#6

Sound, save for the end. It’s less likely to be received easily when terms like “bigot” are used as they inherently place the receiver in a position of defensiveness. And I’m not so sure how “clear” it is that a lack of ability to make such observances indicates ONLY bigotry.

And, while sound, the content presupposes the student has any cultural interest whatsoever. In fact it presupposes a single intention for the practice across all people. And while this post would speak very directly to MY intent and interest, it seems obvious from the world around us that this is not a collective intention.

I notice my own filtered receptivity to the phrases “right”, “absolutely good”, “you need to”, “do not”, and “definitely”. And this might be worthy of note for those who post and wish to be fully heard. You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

#7

Cool! I so very much welcome your perspectives!

One word of caution :slight_smile: As a man who is half british and half, uhhh, USAish (I dislike saying American), british and US culture is VERY different in my opinion. Taking it one step further, I feel that yoga practitioners here in the USA have developed a culture of their own. A culture that I admit I am trying to change a bit :smiley:

#8

[QUOTE=David;33497]british and US culture is VERY different in my opinion. [/QUOTE]

And us Australians are different again… but closer to British probably.

#9

I think Indians by and large are steotypically straight to the point. No beating around the bush. Take it or leave it.

I’m kinda that way myself . . . ahem…

Whereas in American culture - this straight to the pointness can go in like a fly in soup… Some what distastefully. Causing conflicts. Cultural things i guess.

#10

[QUOTE=David;33497]Cool! I so very much welcome your perspectives!

One word of caution :slight_smile: As a man who is half british and half, uhhh, USAish (I dislike saying American), british and US culture is VERY different in my opinion. Taking it one step further, [B]I feel that yoga practitioners here in the USA have developed a culture of their own.[/B] A culture that I admit I am trying to change a bit :D[/QUOTE]

I also feel there is a culture around this yoga business in america.

Don’t know if we agree but I see it as Kinda new agey. Kinda hippy flower powery?

Yes. I’m aware my last statement may be offensive to some… :cool:

#11

I notice my own filtered receptivity to the phrases “right”, “absolutely good”, “you need to”, “do not”, and “definitely”. And this might be worthy of note for those who post and wish to be fully heard. You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

As the scales said, we Indians are very straight to the point :smiley:

If somebody cannot make those observances when looking at another culture they are a cultural bigot. There is no if and but. It maybe conscous, or it maybe unconscious. It still bigotry.

Those interested in Yoga should look at the context it developed in. This in turns means looking at the history and culture. This is in turn means looking at the philosophy. This is turn means looking at the language of the works it is based on.

The reason I say this is because I have recently had conversations with people arrogantly telling me they know about Samkhya and Yoga philosophy and telling me what Yoga is when it becomes completely obvious they know barely anything and have misunderstood the very basic basics of them.

Another thing that I find really odd is how many Western people I have talked on this forum who deny Yoga is Hinduism and try to pretend Yoga is something else. This is definitely cultural bigotry and we Hindus look at it as such.

#12

My beloved teacher Sri Durga Devi believed that you cannot teach yoga properly if you didn’t understand Hinduism and as such she regularly took us took us to ashrams, organised discussions for us with Swami’s and expected us to attend satsang every week religiously. Fortunately we have a substantial Indian community in SA. Before she gave me permission to do my teacher’s course, I had to visit India to in her words “really understand yoga”. I am so glad she did all these things with us, I feel incredibly privileged, it gave me an undertsanding of yoga that I feel is invaluable and which I impart today to my own students.

#13

I believe in universality. This means, while hindus, or indians might have deep cultural connections to yoga, yoga clearly is not a property of a culture. If it is so, than it has lost it’s universality, and what is not universal, is only of relative truth, walkable by only a few.

What you state in your original post, almost states, that yoga cannot be studied or practiced without actually becoming a hindu/indian.
The better solution would be to raise yoga from being a cultural property to a self sustaining, efficient and comprehensible system available to all.

It is clear to me now, and I say it regardless of your indigenous sensibility, that the apparent inability of yoga to become universally available is in fact only the inability of Your yoga, and not yoga’s itself.

#14

I am saying you will become Hindu(not Indian) by practicing Yoga. You will begin to validate for yourself all the truths of Hinduism. This is why orthodox Christians find it hard to reconcile Christianity with Yoga or orthodox Muslims find it hard to reconcile Islam with Yoga. They are not stupid, they know exactly the philosophy Yoga is based on is fundamentally against their religion.

I think it is a brilliant by way. Maybe Yoga not Hinduism is the deception the world needs to be converted into Hinduism :smiley: That would be great for this world.

I think people are deluding themselves when they try to claim Yoga is not Hinduism. Go to any Hindu guru(the Hindu equivalent of a pastor or a imam) they teach Yoga.

What does Yoga mean? It means the union and full integration of the individual self with the universal self. It is about self-realization. The most fundamental doctrine of Hinduism.

Some questions and answers

Q. Where does Yoga first appear in known history?
A. The earliest evidence of Yoga is in the Indus valley that practiced the religion of Hinduism. It is found on the Prajapati seal.

Q. Where does the word Yoga first appear?
A. It appears in the Upanishads(Hindu sciptures) which are written in Sanskrit the sacred language of Hinduism.

Q. Where is Yoga first ever described?
A. It is described in the Vedas which are the most sacred of all Hindu scriptures.

Q. What philosophy is the practice of Yoga based on?
A. It is based on Samkhya philosophy,the oldest of all Hindu philosophies. This philosophy provides all the theoretical framework of Yoga and defines the aim of Yoga as liberating the self from the illusion of the world. This also includes karma and reincarnation.

Q. What are the most authoritative works of Yoga?
A. The Yogasutras, the Bhagvad Gita, Yoga Upaniahds, Hatha Yoga Pradipika, Shiva Sutras, Bhirava Tantra. All Hindu scriptures

Q. What is the theory the physical techniques of Yoga are based on?
A. The theory is based on regulating the pranic body in order that the kundalini or potential energy at the base of the spine can rise up the sushmana nadi and activate all the chakras and merge with the crown chakra and bring about cosmic consciousness(unity with Brahman/Shiva) All Hindu concepts.

Q. What is the theory the mental techniques of Yoga are based on?
A. The theory is based on completely halting the guna activity at the substratum thereby all vritti activity is stopped and one realises themselves as cosmic consciousness. All Hindu concepts.

It is blatantly obvious Yoga is Hinduism. It is not just a property of Hindusim. It is through and through Hinduism.

#15

Hinduism is yoga.

Yoga isn’t Hinduism.

HAHAHAHAHA!

Thats the realness.

I think that was super profound… :slight_smile:

#16

I just watched the Christian propoganda piece, “Gods of the new age” on youtube which is a paranoid piece talking about a global conspiracy by Hindus to take over the world and destroy Christianity through marketing Yoga as non-religious, non-hindu, scientific and secular. I am now thinking, perhaps I will simply let you and others who want to believe it, that Yoga is not Hinduism :smiley:

Please proceed with the asanas, pranayama and dharana. However, remember when that Kundalini starts to rise, when the experiences of emerging with the infinite one starts to take place or when you spontaneously start to remember past lives or project out of your body… you are well on your way to becoming Hindu. A member of the universal religion. I will wait for you on the other side :wink:

#17

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;33553]I just watched the Christian propoganda piece, “Gods of the new age” on youtube which is a paranoid piece talking about a global conspiracy by Hindus to take over the world and destroy Christianity through marketing Yoga as non-religious, non-hindu, scientific and secular. I am now thinking, perhaps I will simply let you and others who want to believe it, that Yoga is not Hinduism :smiley:

Please proceed with the asanas, pranayama and dharana. However, remember when that Kundalini starts to rise, when the experiences of emerging with the infinite one starts to take place or when you spontaneously start to remember past lives or project out of your body… you are well on your way to becoming Hindu. A member of the universal religion. I will wait for you on the other side ;-)[/QUOTE]

How do you know I have not had such experiences or that I wasn’t a quote unquote “Hindu” in the past?

You don’t.

Eternal Religion.

Sanatana Dharama.

Eternal Laws/harmony/and so on…

These are cool names.

This is proper name… to me. For it implies universality. AND THIS I CAN LIVE WITH!!!

[B]This is from a “Hindu” Blog . . [/B].

[B]Sanatana Dharma is the true and original name of Hinduism. So, what is the meaning of Sanatana Dharma? Sanatana means that which cannot be destroyed by fire, water, air, weapons and is present in all living and non living being. The nearest apt English word for Sanatana is ‘Eternal.’ Now for Dharma, there is no apt English word. The nearest explanation for dharma is duty, responsibility of an individual or code of life or law. Roughly, Sanathana Dharma means the ‘Eternal Law.’

The words ‘Hindu’ and ‘Hinduism’ is a later incorrect designation. The above meaning of
Sanatana can be found in the Bhagavad Gita.

It must be noted here that none of the major scriptures of Sanatana Dharma mentions the term ‘Hindu’ or ‘Hinduism.’ We will never find the term ‘Hindu’ or ‘Hinduism’ in Bhagavad Gita or other important scriptures.

Thanks to the early Muslim traders and invaders and the imperial Britishers, even many Hindus have forgotten the name Sanatana Dharma.
[/B]

SO THERE!!! I think I win now! 8)

#18

That is just nomenclature really.

We Hindus call it by the authentic name Sanatana dharma. The outsiders call it Hinduism.
So I have no problem embracing that word. Most modern Hindus do not.

#19

How bout you just get rid of all this seperateness?

#20

Surya,

While a lot of what you’re saying is true, it’s also somewhat fanatic and I still wonder what your point is? Pride I guess.

Was cosmic vibration exclusive to the Indus Valley? Was it not felt in Egypt?, in China, in the Americas? OM was not a cultural phenomena, but a human one felt around the world, however that first bore language in the Indus Valley. See the difference?

After centuries of aural communication, Hindus witnessed and documented “yoga” with the written word most extensively (for which we are forever thankful, since that vibration was on the wane), however there are aspects of yoga that existed elsewhere in the world at the same time. For example, in the Yucatan, there are references to kundalini, ascending snakes, and Chi Chenitza sitting in lotus position? That was, I believe, also approximately 1500-2000 B.C. Coincidence? OM for them may have evolved into binary math with which they most successfully mapped the heavens, and yet we hear no one saying the heavens belong to the Mayans, do we? You get me? Isn’t there another way for you to break through the ownership issue? What are you really afraid of? Like, it might not happen for you because you’re only part Hindu? Right? Your afraid you will never know yoga with your mind?

Well, the beauty is, you can know it ALL and nothing will happen unless you practice, and in that I hope you will find that you’re not Hindu, part Hindu, or English, or whatever…you’re human, and so is yoga, as it always has been.

Ugh!
siva