What does yoga tell me to do with my anger?

Yoga Discussion General Yoga
#24

[QUOTE=kyogagirl64;79223]This may be a stupid question. When you mention ones entire life becomming yoga I know that definately includes spiritualitly. Can you apply the yoga system to whatever religious beliefs you have? I realize that yoga roots from hindu and buddha beliefs, but it seems like many people with different belief systems are doing yoga. Sorry for getting off track from the main topic. Just would like your opinion. thanks[/QUOTE]

But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.

Psalms
Cheers

#25

[QUOTE=Fixed;79224]But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.

Psalms
Cheers[/QUOTE]

Thanks :slight_smile:

#26

[QUOTE=kyogagirl64;79223]This may be a stupid question. When you mention ones entire life becomming yoga I know that definately includes spiritualitly. Can you apply the yoga system to whatever religious beliefs you have? I realize that yoga roots from hindu and buddha beliefs, but it seems like many people with different belief systems are doing yoga. Sorry for getting off track from the main topic. Just would like your opinion. thanks[/QUOTE]

Namaste, thanks for your question. The simple answer is Yoga is not a belief-based system, it is completely practical. However, having said that practicing Yoga does require a basic understanding of some of its theoretical principles and as Yoga is a metaphysical system, it does mean accepting certain Metaphysical principles. These are the principles of Samkhya which can be very briefly summarized as

  1. The existence of a higher self(Purusha). This is the true essential self of you, which is pure, free and unbounded wisdom, love, peace and knowledge. As you perceive reality through the filters and noise of your mind(known as chit vrittis) you get a very distorted and unclear perception of your Self, hence you form a pseudo-concept of self. In Yoga, you are working towards removing all those filters and clearing away all that mental noise to get a crystal clear vision of your higher self. Hence, a certain amount of devotion and love is required towards your higher self. This component of devotion which is a crucial drive in Yoga is the religious aspect of Yoga, but there is a lot of flexibility in Yoga in how you interpret your ‘higher self’ that can cover many religious interpretations: Common interpretations are
  1. Advaita Vedanta: The universal self, Brahman
  2. Dvaita Vedanta, Sikhism, Christianity, Islam, Judaism: The supreme creator, God
  3. Samkhya Yoga: The individual pure self, the soul
  4. Buddhist: The pure natural and unbound state, Nirvana
  5. Jainism: The universal state of pure wisdom, love, compasssion and intelligence
  6. Secular Humanism: The optimum mind state of functioning

The realization of the “higher self” therefore forms the core of all religious experiences in Yoga, but the interpretation of the nature of the higher self can be numerous to cover pretty much every possible religious and non-religious interpretation.

  1. The existence of an unmanifest nature or field that responds to you and serves you(Prakriti) In Yoga it is said “The seen exists for the sake of the seer” That is this entire material reality is not purposeless, it is stirred into motion by the behaviour of people and manifests what is needed for their continual evolution. This understanding that such a field exists, will make you more responsible for your actions, speech and thought, because every action will cause nature to respond. In this worldview, you are not a tiny insignificant spec in the vast universe, you are an active participant in shaping and moulding reality and your actions, speech and thought play a significant role. In like manner, the actions of others, the environment and events in the universe have direct effects on you. This understanding of the complex causal roles everything plays is called the laws of karma and living your life as per those laws is known as dharma.

  2. The existence of metaphysical dimensions, afterlife and reincarnation. Practicing Yoga to realize the higher self makes no sense if your life is temporary, because the realization of the higher self presupposes lifetimes of evolution.(The Buddhists say millions and billions of lifetimes) Hence, one requires to see thing from a wider cosmic perspective, and not feel like that they must attain liberation in this life or else. Nature will give us many opportunities to evolve. This of course requires accepting that you are not this body(you will see this phrase “I am not this body” repeated ad nauseum in Yoga literature) you are a spiritual being and you will survive physical death. These core principle is one of the most religiously contentious for atheists, Muslims, Christians, Jews. The former two principles are relatively easier to accept with some interpretation, but this one stands in strong contradiction to others. Many Muslims, Christians, Jews and Atheists will struggle in reconciling this with their religions, unless they appeal to the esoteric versions of their religions which accept reincarnation etc

Now, is reincarnation an essential principle we must accept in Yoga? I am afraid so. It makes no sense to begin a Yoga path in life without accepting reincarnation. As the practices we are doing presuppose a total ontological separation between us and the objects of this world re body, mind, ego, intellect and the causal laws of manifestation of how intellect becomes ego, ego becomes mind, mind becomes body etc. Yoga progress cannot happen without this ontological separation. If you were the body, Yoga would not work because there is no higher self to realize. Furthermore, the progress which happen in Yoga is mostly invisible because it is so subtle and minute to detect, some people can be mediating for their entire life and not detect any significant progress, and others may make some progress, but their life ends before they achieve their goals. In the Gita Prince Arjuna asks this question to Krishna, “What if I do not achieve the goal of Yoga in this lifetime, then I am neither a winner in Yoga or a winner in this wordly life, I am a loser on all counts” to which Krishna responds, “Whatever progress you make in this life, will carry on until your future life, an aspiring yogi who fails to attain the goal in this life, will be born in the household of yogis and continue their progress”

So to sum up accepting ones identity as spiritual being on a sojourn on Earth and reincarnation is an essential principle of the Yoga system, not accepting it will cause problems on the path of Yoga, such as doubt, confusion, complacency and depression. But Yoga does not expect you to believe it blindly either, you need to understand why it is true by understanding the philosophy of Yoga. Understanding and acceptance of the philosophy is a prerequisite to beginning the practice.

Finally, I will point out some of the problems in people of non-dharmic religions practicing Yoga, such as a Christian. As Yoga requires you to accept many principles which will practically convert you to Hinduism:

  1. The acceptance of the Higher Self
  2. The acceptance of the law of karma and dharma
  3. The acceptance of reincarnation and metaphysical dimensions

This is why it is very difficult to separate Yoga from Hinduism. Adherents of other religions will find it difficult to reconcile without reinterpreting their own religions to make them more “Hindu”

#27

This is way too fascinating not to include, while doing some of my own research on the subject, I stumbled upon this:

Search for the Houston Chronicle, January 22, 2004. A guy (in Texas no less) was sentenced to do yoga to help him control his anger!

The real question here is, did it work? Couldn’t find that!

#28

Surya Deva thanks so much for the lesson. I really enjoyed the reading and your wisdom. Now I ask myself if Im wasting my time doing yoga. I have a belief system and it doesnt match nor will it ever match the yoga system. Maybe Im wrong but I believe that you can pick and choose and still feel enriched. Time will tell.

#29

Yes, it is difficult to practice Yoga consistently if you have a belief system that conflicts with it. In such cases, practitioners will pick and choose certain aspects of Yoga which appeal such as techniques like postures, breathing exercises or maybe even some of its ethical guidelines like non-violence, which have shown to be very beneficial and efficacious. However, it is not a complete Yoga practice, and will not be as effective.

Generally, I would recommend Yoga only to those who are comfortable with and sympathetic to Hinduism. After all, Yoga is officially the practice of Hinduism.

#30

Are you wasting your time doing yoga? Never mind the physical benefits, never mind the mental benefits… you’re concerned about your belief system? Your belief system is your own system. If you believe in things that are contradictory to Hinduism… yogaism… or whatever ism you want to add, then of course, stay true to your beliefs. Nonetheless, in my limited experience, it seems clear that yoga - for all its benefits - can be practiced FOR its benefits, without having to believe in the numerous gods of the ancient yogis. Does anyone here believe that yoga MUST be practiced as a religion? I’m really curious about this point! In fact… as the judge says, it can be practiced solely for its “practical” benefits which include a LONG list of practical benefits… including - in this discussion forum - anger management. Does anyone disagree??? (that is a genuine question, btw)

#31

[QUOTE=lalalemon;79252]Are you wasting your time doing yoga? Never mind the physical benefits, never mind the mental benefits… you’re concerned about your belief system? Your belief system is your own system. If you believe in things that are contradictory to Hinduism… yogaism… or whatever ism you want to add, then of course, stay true to your beliefs. Nonetheless, in my limited experience, it seems clear that yoga - for all its benefits - can be practiced FOR its benefits, without having to believe in the numerous gods of the ancient yogis. Does anyone here believe that yoga MUST be practiced as a religion? I’m really curious about this point! In fact… as the judge says, it can be practiced solely for its “practical” benefits which include a LONG list of practical benefits… including - in this discussion forum - anger management. Does anyone disagree??? (that is a genuine question, btw)[/QUOTE]

+1.
Agreed
Cheers

#32

Yes, of course Yoga can be practiced for its benefits. It is obviously a well documented practice and shown to be highly effective. However, Yoga is very much a religious practice, and if one does not practice it as a religion it not going to be completely effective. This does not mean that one abandons their own religion to practice Yoga, but it does mean that one has to reconcile ones own religion with the religion of Yoga i.e., Hinduism.

As I argued above, Yoga is not just a set of techniques, it is an entire system which is based on its own epistemology, metaphysics, psychology and ethics. Yoga very much becomes ones life. In this sense it very much is a religion. If you are serious about Yoga for instance, you will eventually find yourself reading Hindu texts like the Upanishads, Mahabharata, Bhagavad Gita, Ramayana, Yoga Sutras, Samkhyakarika, Samkhya Sutras, Shiva Samhita, Hatha Yoga Pradapika and as everything within the Hindu pale is interconnected you will find yourself deeply immersed in the Vedic world, reading and practicing Ayurveda, Jytoshia, Vaastu. This forms part of the core discipline of Yoga(svadharma) of self-education and self-introspection.

Yoga is almost like a portal into the Vedic universe and once you go through that portal you are bound to end up Hindu. However, I only say this for people who are serious about Yoga, and not those who just have a superficial interest.

#33

End up hindu? Yoga tells us not to identify our selves with our bodies. If we then start identify our self as a hindu then yoga is obviously not working.

#34

Hinduism is not really a self-identity but a group identity in order to classify the beliefs, practices of a group and its members. Whether somebody calls themselves Hindu or not, if they subscribe to a certain set of beliefs and practices classified as Hinduism, they will be called Hindu by others. If you somebody praying 5 times a day to Allah, reading the Quran, attending the mosque you would call them “Muslim” Similarly if you see somebody practicing Yoga, believing in reincarnation, self-realization, reading Hindu scriptures you would say “Hindu”

I am not actually saying non-Hindu’s cannot practice Yoga. They should practice Yoga, but they will need to reconcile Yoga with their own religion.

#35

Now you are talking from the view of a mind just because anyone would call you hindu if you do yoga and read bhagavad gita. But the most interesting is how you identify your self as. How others identify you,has no value for you and you should not identify as others assume you are. Then you play their game of the mind. I i read english papers and talk english does that make me english, or if i have thoughts in english? No one is english unless seen from body identification.

Religion is for mind , yoga takes you beyond mind(turiya is beyond mind) A true yogi works for the whole a hindu goes to work and then he tries to do what little he can. It is not the same even if belief is shared. Dont forget the saints seeing the truth handed down the veda so that wordly people could also make progress ive told you before but you seem not to have grasped that. They didnt take credit as they didnt write it so why should any hindu take credit for it?. Yoga tells us we are not the doer which the makers of veda clearly understood not taking credit for it.

But i could of course be wrong now as i dont really know nothing , find out for your self.

#36

You have a very romantic view of Yoga, but one which is not really supported by the scholarship or the facts.

If you read the literature the authors of various Yogic texts did indeed take credit for their authorship. In fact the Yogic philosophical school, like other philosophy school in India has developed from debate of various authors, putting forward ideas and debating them among each other in rigorous manner.

Labels and classifications are simply useful conventions that we use to identify things. If we see somebody who is praying 5 times a day, reading the Quran, attending the Mosque we say they are “Muslim” That is because they share those class characteristics which define a Muslim member.

To say Yoga is not a religion obviously shows a complete ignorance, or perhaps misunderstanding of the fact Yoga is something which has developed in the religions of India, more specifically in Hinduism, but the Jains and Buddhists also have developed their own distinct Yoga practices. The aim of Yoga is to end all suffering one experiences permanently and attain liberation from the cycle of birth and death and total transcendence self-realization or god-realization. So Yoga very much is part of a religion and is classified by conventions of language as a religion. Which religion? Well, Yoga is broadly a common aspect of all dharmic religions, but strictly speaking it is Hindu, because it accepts the Hindu philosophy of Self(Buddhism does not accept the Self) and is based on Hindu philosophical underpinnings of purusha and prakriti.

There is this airy-fairy idea that sees Yoga as some universal science or universal truth and therefore as not a religion, but this kind of outlook fails to see that the Yogic universalism are based on specifically Hindu philosophical underpinnings, and these truths are not universally accepted in all religions. So if a Christian member wants to practice Yoga, they are obviously going to face conflicts because the truths of Yoga coming from Hinduism are in stark contrast to the truths in their bible e.g., reincarnation. Therefore, to be forthright about this to any Christians wanting to practice Yoga is a good thing, rather than feeding some airy fairy, vague ideas “Yoga is universal, it is for every religion” Sooner or later, they are going to learn from their pastors that Yoga is in contradiction with their faith.

As for just practicing physical Yoga as in only the asanas form. Well this is not Yoga, this is a Western appropriation of Yoga customized to fit Western modern secular beliefs where Yoga becomes only an exercise system. If one is practicing this form of “Yoga” then they don’t have to worry about religion. However, this is not really Yoga, and when I meet Western Yogis telling me they are yogis because they can do the headstand, I don’t recognize them as yogis. Nor do I recognize many Western Yoga teachers as real Yoga teachers. They teach exercise, they are really fitness instructors :wink:

#37

to treat anger… do any exercise. sports… regulary

also bhastrika pranayam is good

to it regulary

#38

Yoga tells us we are not the doer which the makers of veda clearly understood not taking credit for it.

This does not mean not taking credit for something you have authored. If this attitude was really true in Vedic culture than we would never seen any names associated with any of the literature, we would just see text without any names or everything signed anonymous. This is not true, for we know the Yoga sutras are by Patanjali, we know Panini wrote the Asthadhyayi; Vyassa wrote the Mahabharata; Valmiki the Ramayana; Kapila the Samkhya Sutras; Charaka the Charaka samhita etc.

Even if you think about in terms of common sense if you have written some original work or done some original research you obviously will want credit for it. Your name will go down in history, you will get given opportunities, you will win wealth, fame and status and influence. This is why plagiarism is considered such a bad thing, for the plagiarizer deprive another person from their rights to the privileges that they themselves gain by claiming anothers work as their own.

Not being the doer means that everything is driven by the gunas(the fundamental drives of nature) and that we should relinquish our notion of doership in our actions, meaning that we should act only for the sake of what is needed or what needs to be done not for the sake of personal profit, but the sake of the action itself. Hence, in the case of Arjuna, his warrior being that of the duty is to uphold righteousness and he should act only for its sake and not for his own sake. But relinquishing doership does not mean that one stops doing, one stops using language or observing social conventions, or participating in social rituals or daily rituals like eating, drinking, reading, writing.

#39

You are not the doer you are the knower :). Dont take the said and interpret it into molecolues. NO saint would like to take credit for his work he surrendered to god and god work through him. I.e. If a healer thibk he is the healer it creates ego and he falls he is not the doer when he heals he is a channel only. Because someone put their name on some book does not mean he did it out of ego maybe they did it for its sake as you said which cant be considered selfish. Do you think anyone in bliss that reach moksha would really care about becoming famous in this world, that what is impermanent?. If you can choose famous or moksha what do you choose? therin lies the answer if ego or not.
it is not that we put our name on our work that matters , it is the itention behind it what matters. Same as selfless service if motivation is fame behind the action it is egodriven.
Of course you can use labels as long as you know they are maya. If you say he is a muslim he prays 5 times a day and believe this to be the truth then it is error.
I never said you should never use labels, when i say something you take it to the extreme, always.

But who am i to tell you the knower, there is nothing i could tell you that you dont know already.

Btw:
Did you see any cave paintings with name on it? Tell me if you did ,that would be interesting to know.

#40

es. NO saint would like to take credit for his work he surrendered to god and god work through him.

Again, depending on who you define as a saint: Jnanawara? Shankara? Madhva? Ramunj?, Kabir? Guru Nanak? They all signed their work. Taking credit is another question, but they did indeed make their authorship known. None of them were anonymous.

Do you think anyone in bliss that reach moksha would really care about becoming famous in this world, that what is impermanent?

I think some of these really romantic ideas of how enlightened and liberated people are actually quite misleading. Do enlightened and liberated people just remain in a perpetual state of bliss while the rest of the world gets on with it? This is the kind of reasons given by people who take drugs like ganja and remain high all the time(A lot of Siddhas in India do this in the name of religion) No, enlightened people like Buddha, Krishna, Mahavira, Risis, Patanjali etc actually contribute to society. They spread their teachings, they do service, they make important discoveries like Kapila discovers Samkhya philosophy.

So what I am saying is lets be practical. Claiming authorship of what you have written is not unenlightened. Similarly, studying the history of ideas and where what idea first came from in our history is not pointless, history is very important in order to understand the development of thought in the world. Thus it does matter to say that Yoga originates with the pale of Hinduism, for it allows us to understand Yoga better through Hinduism.

Btw:
Did you see any cave paintings with name on it? Tell me if you did ,that would be interesting to know.

They could not write dear :wink:

#41

Ask your self what you want to be , make a name in this world or moksha? Then if some saint becomes famous is totally different. If you become like buddha or anyone else you would no doubt become famous. It is the thought behind your action that makes it. Fake people do whatever it takes to maintain their image, real people do not care.
Everywhere we can read that ego is an obstacle i.e. Yoga so obvioulsy if you want to become famous you will not reach moksha. Simple its all there if we have eyes to see. But of course its possible that ego think it can have both but i have no experience of this so i cant really know.

Isnt spreading teching contributing to the society? Thanks to buddha people might reach nirvana is that not contributing?You need to reflect on your understanding. Why do you need to understand development of thought? You are not your thoughts, or do you identify with them?

Actually to much knowledge stands in the way to become liberated, even within india scripture and branches is totally different and by time much is deluded and truth is lost. You can have knowledge of them all but without experience you dont know nothing really. And some of them go against each other, how can you know which one is true without experience? There is no word for truth the saints have pointed some guidelines for us to read so that we have like a lifeline. Cause truth can never be explained so that someone without experience of it can understand it, just like some yogis say that taste of honey can never be described so that someone that never tasted it can understand how it really taste.

Do you think our mind we use now can grasp the truth from reading? With your knowledge i think this you already know but when you speak it shows different. When you want to study past to know the future you are hooked up in this world and maya. Time is egos form.
If you cant see this no one can see for you. But it is all there to see.When you read this dont write down your first thoughts wait one day and reflect and the outcome will be different. Try it.

#42

Why is moksha and being famous mutually contradictory? I really don’t get how you are thinking here. Is moksha like some end point of existence, beyond which one stops being in the world? There is good reason to believe it is not, because like I said so-called enlightened and liberated people have remained in the world and contributed, as a result they have also become famous. As a result of becoming famous, they have gained influence and their works and teachings have been published/transcribed. Again, their names are stated in all their works.

Why is the history of ideas important? Why is history important? Honestly you should go and ask a historian why they think history is important. I am not a historian, though I of course cover a lot of history in my own discipline of philosophy. History is important because human knowledge and culture is not static, it is constantly evolving. If you want to make contributions to our progress you need to be aware of everything that has been done before you. Newton famously said “I stood on the shoulders of giants” meaning his theories of mechanics would not have been possible, without the work of all before him. Why in all fields do you study the history of ideas, even in a field like mathematics? Because you need to know about what has been done before you and how the field has evolved, if you want to contribute original research to it.

Some of the romantic ideas you are evincing about the Indian tradition are actually all stereotypes about the Indian tradition and often these stereotypes are used by the West to discredit it: These stereotypes are that it is world-denying, anti-progress, anti-science and rationality, mystical, superstitious. So basically because of these stereotypes the entire Indian tradition of thought and culture gets relegated to “new agers” or people who like exotic things, and kept outside of the professional world that actually matters. The truth is the complete contrary, the Indian tradition is thoroughly rational, scientific and progressive. I know this because I am deeply involved in its study, history and philosophy. As I pointed out already all authored signed their work.

Yoga is not some mystical air-fairy practice. It is a highly developed system of philosophy and science which has more than 3000 years of recorded history. It a subject which has thoroughly studied, debated, analysed and reviewed over the course of history. Beginning from critical inquiries in the Upanishads, to the highly systematic expositions in the sutra or Darsana period. In the Yoga sutras for example, we find elaborate systems of classification of types of thought(vrittis) types of emotional afflictions(kleshas) levels of concentration, levels of samadhi, types of karma and states of consciousness. And of course it does not end here, the commentaries of Vyassa and other major philosophers have thoroughly studied and expanded on the subject. In medieval times we see the philosophy of Tantra emerge as a subset of Yoga, bringing in new developments of studying the anatomy of the body, the vital points, the nadis etc.

Knowledge in the Indian tradition is considered vastly important. First of all the tradition begins from a knowledge based tradition - Vedic - meaning knowing. Vedic knowledge in turn is split up into various branches: Upavedas: Ayurveda(medicine) Dhunrveda(archery, warfare) Ghandarvaveda(music and arts) Shilpa(Engineering and architecture) and the Vedangas: Chanda(meter, prosody) Jyotish(astronomy and astrology) Vykarana(grammar and linguistics) Vaastu(engineering and architecture, a part of Shilpa) As well as the six orthodox schools of philosophy: Nyaya(logic and epistemology) Vaiseshika(natural philosophy and physics) Samkhya and Yoga(Psychology and phenomenology) Mimassa and Vedanta(philosophy of language, metaphysics and theology). As well as auxillary sciences like mathematics(ganita vidya) and itihas(history) and 64 arts: cooking, arranging flowers, the preparation of poisons, metallurgy, dancing. More here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalā

As you can see this is a tradition which thrives in knowledge and where knowledge is encouraged as a religious value(coming from a knowledge religion - Vedic religion) and this is why India has been a leading ancient power in science and technology. This is the same culture that was founded by and propelled by the enlightened people you talk about. Obviously they did care a lot about knowledge.

As I said before Yoga is like a portal into this Vedic universe. It is such a vast tradition covering every area of life. If you are serious about Yoga, you will eventually find yourself going deeper of into the Vedic universe(i.e., Hinduism) as this a culture which is deeply Yogic.

#43

[QUOTE=lalalemon;79252]A. Does anyone here believe that yoga MUST be practiced as a religion? I’m really curious about this point! [/QUOTE]

Yoga is not “religion” but it is spirituality. Yoga -the word itself is derived from the sanskrit root “yuk” -which means “to unite”. Therefore yoga is the union of the “individual mind” -with the “cosmic mind” to put it in very simple language. Yogic science has as its root the tenet that all of us are Atman- Universal Consciousness. However, due to the gyrations of the mind, we are unable to see this Atman and get identified with the limitations of the Atman- the physical, psychic bodies, minds, etc. We can put this in the mathematical equation:

Atman + Mind = Man.

which can be rewritten as

Man-Mind= Atman.

Which, in other words, is the definition of Yoga. Patanjali defines it - Yoga is the cessation of the modifications of the mind.

Nowhere is there any reference to any specific God or religion. It can of course be argued that these concepts are Vedantic in origin - from the Upanishads -that will have to be conceded and to that extent it can be said that it has its roots in Sanatana Dharma - the eternal religion. Again the pantheon of Hindu Gods are not part of Vedanta.

If by religion you mean that Yoga is to be practiced for one’s emancipation , well in my opinion that is the only reason for its practice and indeed for one’s birth.