What is Enlightenment?


#341

[QUOTE=Nietzsche;60614]Excellent.

I’ll start listening when you get around to the “how” part.

Do you plan to go up to Christian fundamentalists and Muslim fanatics and say “accept our divine science (without either getting laughed at, beaten up, or having a fatwa issued on you)?”

Or do you think that going around and saying “Yoga = Divine science” will convince Westerners their ways are not as superior as they once thought?

What do you plan to do when Westerners start claiming Yoga for themselves and start utilizing it as nothing more than a commercialized exercise program (oh wait, they already are)?

Whats the next step when Westerners continue to deride India as nothing but a shit hole and a toilet with the big turd stain called Hinduism (oh damn, I think that’s also happening)?

I simply cannot wait for an answer. How could I not love this idealism when it causes weak and divided Hindus to elect corrupt, anti-Hindu, Christian butt-kissing parties to our government?

How could I not love this exact kind of universalistic idealism that has resulted in Hindus being one of the most religiously and academically persecuted people in history?

Nevertheless, I trust in your wisdom blindly. To hell with all the missionary activity, Islamic fundamentalism, and foreign aggression! Let’s just move on with our lives while bigots continually destroy our culture![/QUOTE]

Dear friend:

Someone told me “Charity begins at home.” So, if I want to keep my street clean, the first thing I must do is stop throwing garbage outside. If I want to improve the world, first I must improve myself.

Let us acknowledge all as humans first. Being at peace with oneself will slowly lead to Universal Peace.

Someone here asked, why Indians allowed themselves to be “attacked, raped and pillaged”. Well, a good amount of decadence must have set in at that time.

However, this time, we will rise and also take the world with us. Let us forever remember what Bharat means. “Bha” is light and “rata” is being engaged in.

And yes. You need not trust anyone blindly. Humans everywhere [B]are[/B] seeking the truth. Increasingly, they are finding Yoga to be the authentic and universal way, in which fundamental elements, which have no debate are taken as a starting point.

Languages and cultures could be different. Yoga is the same. For example Hindus refer to “atman” and “atma-shakti”. Christians refer to “soul” and “holy ghost”. Muslims refer to “rooh” and “roohani taquat”. (Someone please correct me if I am wrong).

Irrespective of religion, everyone wants to experience peace. So then, even Yoga needs to start with at least a glimpse of real inner peace.

I have seen the change due to yoga that does take place in persons afflicted with addictions, doing time in prisons, and still others living aimlessly. These people belong to all castes, creeds and religions. It is the experience that these people got from Yoga that is the motivating factor.

These are the days of [I]“baap dikha nahin to karr shradd!”[/I] (Excuse me, non-hindi knowing members). Plus there is a lot of impatience. It is the age of instant foods.

The Introductory Practice of Mahayoga, is one practice that addresses today’s mindset. It is simple, gives instant experience and costs nothing.

Thousands have tried it and appreciated the experience. You too can try it out. Forget the world, for the time being!

Regards
Anand


#342

Let us acknowledge all as humans first. Being at peace with oneself will slowly lead to Universal Peace

No, being peace at oneself will only lead to one having a clear mind, intellect and greater control of their senses so they can act better in the world and inspire those who want to be inspired.

You want to believe in some magic bullet to solve the problems in the world. There is no magic bullet - not even the mahayoga practice you advertise everywhere.


#343

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;60629]No, being peace at oneself will only lead to one having a clear mind, intellect and greater control of their senses so they can act better in the world and inspire those who want to be inspired.

You want to believe in some magic bullet to solve the problems in the world. There is no magic bullet - not even the mahayoga practice you advertise everywhere.[/QUOTE]

Dear friend:

Mahayoga is a Science with a complete “Body of Knowledge”. There is no need to advertise any science. Does anyone advertise physics or chemisrty?

I ask you, have you tried out the introductory practice which you are calling “magic bullet” in a dismissive way?

Dismissing without trial is agnostic (or even barbaric, if I have to use the favourite phrase in this place).

Regards
anand


#344

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;60629]No, being peace at oneself will only lead to one having a clear mind, intellect and greater control of their senses so they can act better in the world and inspire those who want to be inspired.

You want to believe in some magic bullet to solve the problems in the world. There is no magic bullet - not even the mahayoga practice you advertise everywhere.[/QUOTE]

Again dear friend:

I do agree with your first part about those with clearer mind and intellect being able to inspire others.

I am glad you agree it is a product of inner peace. Coming to the magic bullet part, let me refer to your post no.7 on the thread on cults. You do seem to agree that meditation requires concentration on some object.

Your words I quote here: [I]“I explained to him that meditation requires concentrated focus on a single object as the Yoga sutras stipulate, not to allow your mind to wander, but he contested my definition saying it was subjective and authoratarian. I of course maintained what he was doing was not meditation. We fell out.”[/I]

Well, the introductory practice of Mahayoga is very much that.

In this practice,

[ol]
[li]Sitting in any position, one is to relax the body to the maximum.
[/li]
[li]One is to [B]allow[/B] automatic breathing to take place. One’s Basic breathing [B]is[/B] automatic. It is the movement of Prana Shakti. Over and above this, different chitta vrittis or physical variations may attract varying amounts of air. For example, different breathing takes place in situations of fear, excitement, anger, etc.
[/li]
[li]Make this divine movement of Prana (i.e. automatic breathing), the object of meditation. [B]If it is divine, then meditation here would mean “devoted surrender”.[/B]
[/li][/ol]
This way, the mind is made to follow prana and with regular practice soon begins to surrender (or merge into) its master, the prana shakti.

This is only an introductory practice. It has shown to produce instant inner peace in a large number of people. Needless to say there is no barrier of race or religion here. The Prana is same in everyone.

The remaining journey of course could be long.

Regards
anand


#345

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;60629]No, being peace at oneself will only lead to one having a clear mind, intellect and greater control of their senses so they can act better in the world and inspire those who want to be inspired.

You want to believe in some magic bullet to solve the problems in the world. There is no magic bullet - not even the mahayoga practice you advertise everywhere.[/QUOTE]

Surya Deva
while I understand that there is no “magic bullet”, how can not being at peace with oneself not lead to a more Universal Peace. If I am at peace with who I am then I would have no need to wish ill on my fellow man. And if everyone was at peace with themselves then there would be Universal Peace. (I know its idealistic but not totally impossible)
Personally I find the futher I have come in my Yoga practice (and more at peace with who I am) that I have become more tolerant of those around me despite the diffculities they may cause me. I am slowly learning to be more patient, and understanding of how they react to the world around them. And by seeing that I also learn how to identify when my reactions are also out of hand.

If there is a different meaning to “being at peace with yourself” please enlighten us on it.

To keep on topic “How does Hinduism define enlightenment?” If you posted this somewhere, feel free to just requote or link the post? ( Please forgive me, but I sometimes get lost in the pages of arguments :eek: due to my lack of time online.)

Nameste
TeeA


#346

[QUOTE=TeeA;60705]Surya Deva
while I understand that there is no “magic bullet”, how can not being at peace with oneself not lead to a more Universal Peace. If I am at peace with who I am then I would have no need to wish ill on my fellow man. And if everyone was at peace with themselves then there would be Universal Peace. (I know its idealistic but not totally impossible)
Personally I find the futher I have come in my Yoga practice (and more at peace with who I am) that I have become more tolerant of those around me despite the diffculities they may cause me. I am slowly learning to be more patient, and understanding of how they react to the world around them. And by seeing that I also learn how to identify when my reactions are also out of hand.

If there is a different meaning to “being at peace with yourself” please enlighten us on it.

To keep on topic “How does Hinduism define enlightenment?” If you posted this somewhere, feel free to just requote or link the post? ( Please forgive me, but I sometimes get lost in the pages of arguments :eek: due to my lack of time online.)

Nameste
TeeA[/QUOTE]

dear friend:

I appreciate the logic you have put forward. Hope our friend takes cognisance
of it.

My guru P.P.Shri Narayan Dhekane has defined peace simply and convincingly as “absence of any thought”.

Naturally, if any yoga or yoga technique could induce such a situation, it would be the [B]highest starting point[/B] for further spiritual progress (or enlightenment if you will).

All religions advise on “surrendering to the Lord”. Well, according to Yoga, reproductive fluids, mind and prana are interconnected. Further, prana is the Lord of the mind. So mahayoga says, lead the mind to its Lord!!

It is heartening to hear about the positive changes yoga has made to you personally. Others (including me) would get a shot in the arm. Thanks for sharing.

regards
anand


#347

Mahayoga is a Science with a complete “Body of Knowledge”. There is no need to advertise any science. Does anyone advertise physics or chemisrty?

I ask you, have you tried out the introductory practice which you are calling “magic bullet” in a dismissive way?

Dismissing without trial is agnostic (or even barbaric, if I have to use the favourite phrase in this place).

No, you do not advertise science. However, you certainly can advertise a technique. In most of your posts you advertise Mahayoga and mention your guru, much like Seeker advertises Sahaja yoga and mentions his guru.

I am not knocking your technique. In fact the technique you share is a very old technique known as vipassana - where one just remains with their natural breath. It is also mentioned very briefly in Patanjali’s yogasutras. I have done vipassana meditation and I agree it is a wonderful meditation - but is it a magic bullet that will solve everything? No, it is another meditation technique and it will require hard work over several years and decades to bring about lasting results.

It certainly is not going to transform you over a few days like you suggest. Such extraordinary claims are typical of somebody trying to advertise a product.

This is only an introductory practice. It has shown to produce instant inner peace in a large number of people. Needless to say there is no barrier of race or religion here. The Prana is same in everyone.

The remaining journey of course could be long.

Indeed, the journey is long. There is no such thing as instant enlightenment. Yes the technique is wonderful, and yes it can be very calming, but it is not going to bring you any quicker to enlightenment than any other technique is. You will still need to stick at it for years and follow a proper yoga sadhana to get results.


#348

[QUOTE=TeeA;60705]Surya Deva
while I understand that there is no “magic bullet”, how can not being at peace with oneself not lead to a more Universal Peace. If I am at peace with who I am then I would have no need to wish ill on my fellow man. And if everyone was at peace with themselves then there would be Universal Peace. (I know its idealistic but not totally impossible)
Personally I find the futher I have come in my Yoga practice (and more at peace with who I am) that I have become more tolerant of those around me despite the diffculities they may cause me. I am slowly learning to be more patient, and understanding of how they react to the world around them. And by seeing that I also learn how to identify when my reactions are also out of hand.

If there is a different meaning to “being at peace with yourself” please enlighten us on it.[/quote]

Being at peace with oneself will only create peace within you, not in the rest of the world. Those who want to be inspired by your example will seek inspiration from you, but you will have no effect on those not inspired by you. In Sikhism for example there were great gurus and highly spiritually evolved beings, but their love, compassion and wisdom had no effect on the Muslim tyrants who tortured them to death.

Meditation is not a substitute for action in the world. One still has to act to solve the problems of the world. The sage has to act as much as the wordly person has to - the only difference is the sage acts with wisdom and the wordly person through ignorance. Meditation gifts one with a clear intellect and perception leading to better action in the world.

To keep on topic “How does Hinduism define enlightenment?” If you posted this somewhere, feel free to just requote or link the post? ( Please forgive me, but I sometimes get lost in the pages of arguments :eek: due to my lack of time online.)

Nameste
TeeA

I did at the very start of the page. Hinduism defines enlightenment as a perfectly clear and still mind. When your mind is clear and still then it reflects the true nature of eveything that you perceive, like a still lake reflects the moon.
A clear and still mind also gives you absolute control over nature. You can make nature do your bidding. Nothing remains unconscious to you - everything is known.


#349

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;60792]No, you do not advertise science. However, you certainly can advertise a technique. In most of your posts you advertise Mahayoga and mention your guru, much like Seeker advertises Sahaja yoga and mentions his guru.

I am not knocking your technique. In fact the technique you share is a very old technique known as vipassana - where one just remains with their natural breath. It is also mentioned very briefly in Patanjali’s yogasutras. I have done vipassana meditation and I agree it is a wonderful meditation - but is it a magic bullet that will solve everything? No, it is another meditation technique and it will require hard work over several years and decades to bring about lasting results.

It certainly is not going to transform you over a few days like you suggest. Such extraordinary claims are typical of somebody trying to advertise a product.

Indeed, the journey is long. There is no such thing as instant enlightenment. Yes the technique is wonderful, and yes it can be very calming, but it is not going to bring you any quicker to enlightenment than any other technique is. You will still need to stick at it for years and follow a proper yoga sadhana to get results.[/QUOTE]

dear friend:

I think like many, many people, you have not yet come across any literature on the science of mahayoga, the most ancient of all yoga forms. I don’t blame you. Indeed, very little is written about it.

[B]As for mentioning one’s Guru, it is in keeping with the highest of yoga traditions.[/B] The importance of [I]Guru-tattwa[/I] cannot be over-emphasised. The fact that this [I]tattwa[/I] manifests through some persons for the benefit of others also is universally accepted.

Even my Guru P.P. Narayan Dhekane Maharaj acknowledges his Guru, P.P. Loknath Tirth Swami Maharaj on as many occasions as he can. I once asked him why he does that. To that he replied, “forget [I]guru-tattwa[/I] and yoga and all that; doesn’t one thank a postman for delivering your mail?” I had got my answer.

On another side, even the theory of relativity is referred to as Einstein’s theory of relativity. So is it advertising Einstein?

I have nowhere said that the introductory practice of mahayoga will produce instant enlightenment. I have said that by trying out this practice, thousands of people have experienced instant inner peace. I have said that even this depends upon the degree of one’s surrender to the life-force or prana shakti, manifesting as your automatic breathing. For some people, due to their sattwic nature, this happens very quickly.

Please, my dear friend, try to catch the gist of the matter. Let us all share what we have learnt and got. [B]In MahaYoga, experience is the best teacher and shows the earnest aspirant that the [I]guru-tattwa[/I] is within us all.[/B] Only, someone should only show a way and a time to kindle it.

regards
anand


#350

“Universal Peace”? LOL… hippies… lol…

It cannot exist until all asurAs (non-Hindus) are vanquished and Hindus assert themselves.

Why oh why were mlecchas (non-Indians/non-Hindus) allowed to practice yoga? Feeding pearl to swine will only cause harm to us.


#351

[QUOTE=TatTvamAsi;61351]“Universal Peace”? LOL… hippies… lol…

It cannot exist until all asurAs (non-Hindus) are vanquished and Hindus assert themselves.

Why oh why were mlecchas (non-Indians/non-Hindus) allowed to practice yoga? Feeding pearl to swine will only cause harm to us.[/QUOTE]

Do you mean “vanquished” in the context of ideology?


#352

[QUOTE=Nietzsche;61370]Do you mean “vanquished” in the context of ideology?[/QUOTE]

Yes.

The Abrahamic cults of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, along with their retarded cousin Communism are asuric (demonic- for a lack of a better term) ideologies. They have wrought untold harm on humanity in their relatively short history (3000 years). The question is, can yOgA, a fundamentally Hindu science, be used to quell those retards that are part of those cults?

I’m not holding my breath.


#353

[QUOTE=TatTvamAsi;61379]Yes.

The Abrahamic cults of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, along with their retarded cousin Communism are asuric (demonic- for a lack of a better term) ideologies. They have wrought untold harm on humanity in their relatively short history (3000 years). The question is, can yOgA, a fundamentally Hindu science, be used to quell those retards that are part of those cults?

I’m not holding my breath.[/QUOTE]

Don’t forget Capitalism.


#354

[QUOTE=TatTvamAsi;61351]“Universal Peace”? LOL… hippies… lol…

It cannot exist until all asurAs (non-Hindus) are vanquished and Hindus assert themselves.

Why oh why were mlecchas (non-Indians/non-Hindus) allowed to practice yoga? Feeding pearl to swine will only cause harm to us.[/QUOTE]

Dear Friend:

Do not despair. The Gita states that the right to self realization (i.e.yoga) belongs to ALL. Caste, creed, race, gender, social standing: NO BAR.

You have taken up a name “Tat-tvam-asi”. Why not experience the reality of this [I][B]mahavakya?[/B][/I]

We all need to vanquish the Asuras and the pigs within us. The six big ones being: [I][B]kama (lust/ desire), krodha (anger), lobha (selfishness), moha (temptation/ attachment), mada (pride/ conceitedness) and matsara (jealosy-born hatred)[/B][/I]

Pl correct me if I am wrong.

regards, anand


#355

[QUOTE=Anand Kulkarni;61424]Dear Friend:

Do not despair. The Gita states that the right to self realization (i.e.yoga) belongs to ALL. Caste, creed, race, gender, social standing: NO BAR.

You have taken up a name “Tat-tvam-asi”. Why not experience the reality of this [I][B]mahavakya?[/B][/I]

We all need to vanquish the Asuras and the pigs within us. The six big ones being: [I][B]kama (lust/ desire), krodha (anger), lobha (selfishness), moha (temptation/ attachment), mada (pride/ conceitedness) and matsara (jealosy-born hatred)[/B][/I]

Pl correct me if I am wrong.

regards, anand[/QUOTE]

This is highly idealistic. For example, do we give such tools for self-realization to bigots and supremacists? Although it is possible some of these people may be changed from exposure to this knowledge, a greater number of them would use this for personal gain and other sinister purposes.

Considering the damage that has been done to Indian culture and society through blind acceptance, we Hindus should not make the same careless mistakes again.

Rather, we should give these tools to those who can appreciate it, to those who are not ignorant of history and judgmental/patronizing of other “races” and cultures.


#356

[QUOTE=Nietzsche;61499]This is highly idealistic. For example, do we give such tools for self-realization to bigots and supremacists? Although it is possible some of these people may be changed from exposure to this knowledge, a greater number of them would use this for personal gain and other sinister purposes.

Considering the damage that has been done to Indian culture and society through blind acceptance, we Hindus should not make the same careless mistakes again.

Rather, we should give these tools to those who can appreciate it, to those who are not ignorant of history and judgmental/patronizing of other “races” and cultures.[/QUOTE]

Dear Friend:

Anyone willing to devotedly take up Yoga along with all its rules such as [I][B]Yama[/B][/I] and [I][B]Niyama[/B][/I] and [B]food restrictions[/B], is welcome to take it up, I presume.

As one ascends in the path, he will experience all the truths, including the historical ones. A fraction of the population with such experience can transform a large number. The threshold number is very low. Look at the number of [I][B]rishis[/B][/I] [B]Bharat[/B] had, vis-a-vis the population.

regards, anand


#357

[QUOTE=TatTvamAsi;61379]“Universal Peace”? LOL… hippies… lol…

It cannot exist until all asurAs (non-Hindus) are vanquished and Hindus assert themselves.

Why oh why were mlecchas (non-Indians/non-Hindus) allowed to practice yoga? Feeding pearl to swine will only cause harm to us.

The Abrahamic cults of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, along with their retarded cousin Communism are asuric (demonic- for a lack of a better term) ideologies. They have wrought untold harm on humanity in their relatively short history (3000 years). The question is, can yOgA, a fundamentally Hindu science, be used to quell those retards that are part of those cults?

I’m not holding my breath.[/QUOTE]

I was just thinking I don’t belong round here. I was going to respond to people who were seeking peace in the world (some of them so inclusive that they were comparing the basic message of different religions!), by saying that, as an atheist/agnostic, I feel excluded, despite sharing a wish for world peace and trying to work out ways towards it.

I found mention of agnosticism often being called barbarism here. I also found SD in dispute with another yoga practitioner, chiding him for “advertising a product”, apparently because he prefers a different meditation technique and advocates it as a way towards peace.

I was feeling fairly queasy. Then I read TatTvamAsi. And want to weep.

May all beings be happy.
May all beings be at peace.
Except the non-Hindu barbaric retard swine.

I just came to discuss the mental and physical benefits of yoga and various different opinions people might have about the theoretical background.

I was getting back into yoga again, after practising it with deep spiritual intent for 30 years (very intermittently) and then going through a conversion to agnostic empiricism, now enjoying my yoga practice much more, as I feel free of the anxiety I used to have about whether I was doing it right. I do it almost every morning now, have done for over a month. I bring a morning cuppa to the yoga mat. I sometimes meditate even when it’s windy. I don’t have a fresh coating of cow dung on the walls. I don’t study under a guru. I don’t even believe in Enlightenment. I’m probably going to hell.:roll:

Carry on arguing about how to make peace in the world. Don’t bother to let me know if it includes non-hindus. Right now I don’t give a shit.


#358

[QUOTE=Nietzsche;61499]This is highly idealistic. For example, do we give such tools for self-realization to bigots and supremacists? Although it is possible some of these people may be changed from exposure to this knowledge, a greater number of them would use this for personal gain and other sinister purposes.

Considering the damage that has been done to Indian culture and society through blind acceptance, we Hindus should not make the same careless mistakes again.

Rather, we should give these tools to those who can appreciate it, to those who are not ignorant of history and judgmental/patronizing of other “races” and cultures.[/QUOTE]

Project much?


#359

[QUOTE=Anand Kulkarni;61424]Dear Friend:

Do not despair. The Gita states that the right to self realization (i.e.yoga) belongs to ALL. Caste, creed, race, gender, social standing: NO BAR.

You have taken up a name “Tat-tvam-asi”. Why not experience the reality of this [I][B]mahavakya?[/B][/I]

We all need to vanquish the Asuras and the pigs within us. The six big ones being: [I][B]kama (lust/ desire), krodha (anger), lobha (selfishness), moha (temptation/ attachment), mada (pride/ conceitedness) and matsara (jealosy-born hatred)[/B][/I]

Pl correct me if I am wrong.

regards, anand[/QUOTE]

Dear friend

Thank you.
PJ


#360

Pigs are lovely btw.