Concepts can be written by anyone, the reader determines credence for further consideration. Specifically Amir; I?m not getting the same negative feel some folks experience from his Forum writings, although I?ve not read them all Amir seems to have a certain logic and consistency in his words. Whether or not he is enlightened is pointless?just as belief, faith or anyone claiming to be a liberator is worthless.
I am not getting anything negative from Amir either. I don’t think he is consciously trying to deceive anybody. I think he genuinly believes what he believes, hence why he is consistent. Just because he is delusional, does not mean he is evil. You can get people belieiving they are Jesus, but that does not mean they are evil. Amir is only 25, so more likely than not he got exposed to Buddhist philosophy in his college years. He read it, resonated with this idea that we are all Buddhas and one can come to an awakening. Started practicing, meditating, and developed a spiritual superiorty complex(which in abnormal psychology is called narcissistic personality disorder) seeing himself as awakened or more spiritual and everybody else as asleep or less spiritual. His complex than became even worse over time and started believing himself to be a Buddha. His complex is worsening progressively, he recently even said he could steal, but still be a Buddha.
You may ask, “So what? If he wants to believe he is enlightened, then let him, no skin of your back” But he is part of the reason why actually there is skin of my back. Because of people like Amir it is very hard for seekers to find genuine gurus today because most of them are frauds, imposters and deluded people. Amir has even started his cult and is trying to expand it. This is the reason why another prolific Yoga member, Asuri, also condemns him.
When you have a cult leader posting on this forum, claiming to be a Buddha, claiming every other master is a liar, calling the greatest yogis of our times Swami Vivekananda and Swami Yogananda frauds, and telling people its OK to steal. Is it wrong to object to such a person?
If we remain liberal to people like this we will just let the problem multiply. We have to condemn where condemnation is asked for.
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;57431]I am not getting anything negative from Amir either. I don’t think he is consciously trying to deceive anybody. I think he genuinly believes what he believes, hence why he is consistent. Just because he is delusional, does not mean he is evil. You can get people belieiving they are Jesus, but that does not mean they are evil. Amir is only 25, so more likely than not he got exposed to Buddhist philosophy in his college years. He read it, resonated with this idea that we are all Buddhas and one can come to an awakening. Started practicing, meditating, and developed a spiritual superiorty complex(which in abnormal psychology is called narcissistic personality disorder) seeing himself as awakened or more spiritual and everybody else as asleep or less spiritual. His complex than became even worse over time and started believing himself to be a Buddha. His complex is worsening progressively, he recently even said he could steal, but still be a Buddha.
You may ask, “So what? If he wants to believe he is enlightened, then let him, no skin of your back” But he is part of the reason why actually there is skin of my back. [B]Because of people like Amir it is very hard for seekers to find genuine gurus today because most of them are frauds, imposters and deluded people.[/B] Amir has even started his cult and is trying to expand it. This is the reason why another prolific Yoga member, Asuri, also condemns him.
When you have a cult leader posting on this forum, claiming to be a Buddha, claiming every other master is a liar, calling the greatest yogis of our times Swami Vivekananda and Swami Yogananda frauds, and telling people its OK to steal. Is it wrong to object to such a person?
If we remain liberal to people like this we will just let the problem multiply. We have to condemn where condemnation is asked for.[/QUOTE]
Exactly.
Surya,
If you would like to condemn me, create another thread for it. For the sake of those few who may be interested in the subject of “What is Enlightenment?”, leave this thread one-pointed on the matter.
[QUOTE=AmirMourad;57434]Surya,
If you would like to condemn me, create another thread for it. For the sake of those few who may be interested in the subject of “What is Enlightenment?”, leave this thread one-pointed on the matter.[/QUOTE]
I already explained this thread was created in response to the question of your “enlightenment” Also, as you are the only one on this forum who claims to be enlightened and at the level of a Buddha, how can you not possibly be a central discussion point in a discussion on “What is enlightenment” 
In any case I have said what needed to be said on you. I don’t think I need to furnish my points further.
The Ownage . . .
The Ownage . . .
The Ownage . . .
High Wolf,
Ask a normal person…
Not here.
Surya Deva; ?If we remain liberal to people like this we will just let the problem multiply. We have to condemn where condemnation is asked for.?
No doubt the waters are muddied with frauds, filtering doesn?t seem practical, exposure brings attention to the problem but often stirs the muck further. Ultimately individuals must be educated with reputable tools, techniques and methods that allow the cloak of illusion to be lifted, if not the murky waters spread. You permit insight into personal experiences therefore your words become noteworthy.
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;57436]I already explained this thread was created in response to the question of your “enlightenment”
[/QUOTE]
No I haven’t. I was just wondering what people think enlightenment is. Cos 'tis quite a catch-all term. It was not necessarily an Amir-centered thread till you made one 
Although, I ought to repeat it again: from what he sounds Amir is tuning his mind to masterful wisdom. Definitiely the scripts must have helped this tuning. And this is all good. But if he indeed claimed to be ‘enlightened,’ sorry that I missed the thread where he made such claim. But my approach is different than yours: he needs endorsement without sarcasim…
As for the question, “what is enlightenment,” I suppose it all comes down to interpretation. For a good while, I had thought that Mozart was enlightened. Because his music is without flaw and really awakened me spiritually when I was younger. Perhaps his was a “musical enlightenment.”
So in a sense, there could be categories. And this includes (one from west, one from east, so to speak and out of respect)
Scientific enlightenment: Einstein, Ramanuja
Philosophical enlightenment: Plato, Krishnamurti
Political enlightenment: Cicero, Gandhi
Poetic enlightenment: Shakespeare, Basho
:
:
:
and so on. And of course, there is also “spiritual enlightenment,” which could be considered as the “supreme” enlightenment, so to speak. This is often the most problematic one, since common people just don’t accept it. For many who are strictly grounded on social realm, spiritually enlightened people are just a confusion, an alien entity. We all know the stories about Jesus, Siddhartha, Lao Tzu; true or untrue, it matters not. What, however, matters is the paradoxical equation between spirituality and hardship. Between enlightenment and chaos. They are paradoxically complementary…just another pointer that this is a world of oppositions.
High Wolf,
Disclaimer…I’m 20 and only practicing yoga for 7 months. enlightenment is a goal which one may strive for knowing that the goal will never be attained. One may try to do his best, which is the middle way. Living life with an openness to the great planet we are a part of. Loving with out attachment. It is paradox.
Ethics also correlate. One may try to give to the future more than what was given to him. In Permaculture (a design science for ecological culture) the ethic is “earth care”.
I think one of the first steps towards enlightenment is stepping back and reevaluating oneself. This may be painful, but forgiveness is necessary and deserved because now you are on a better path both for you and for everyone. The good news is, as in Yoga, when you start at your foundation and work up you will improve quicker.
This world has much love and problems, therefore I will never be bored. To each his own.
(this thread is ridiculous!!)-and just to show how unenlightened I am, I will now join the mob-
Dear Surya Deva, you claim a Guru must be very smart, yet you act like one to Amir. Indeed, this thread looks like one big power trip for you. You act like a bully, because of something Amir said in another thread. It seems Amir has learned much from your teachings, he has not said here that he is enlightened. Why don’t you make peace with one another as a symbol of your intentions for world peace? Furthermore, someone who is pretending to be guru when clearly not does not make it harder for me to find real guru, indeed, it makes me more aware that we are all simply human.
Scales, if you have licked Amir 300 times, you need to get out more. And you probably need a new tongue. Actually, it wouldn’t surprise me if you and Amir were 2 people in one body! Feel the OM brother! just kidding haha! I have enjoyed some of your other posts by the way.
MR Q, don’t take up 10 inches our screens with such a long quote. I just hit myself for solidarity.
No I haven’t. I was just wondering what people think enlightenment is. Cos 'tis quite a catch-all term. It was not necessarily an Amir-centered thread till you made one
Indeed, I am not saying you started this thread to talk about Amir’s so-called enlightenment, but it was indeed the discussion about Amir’s so-called enlightenment that inspired you to start this thread.
You posted this Yesterday, 11:14 AM in the Cults thread:
donno Scales. I actually agree with his comment on the nature of meditation. Perhaps it aint sound so novel, but I acknowledge one thing that he has tasted a little bit of master wisdom. His words reflect that.
I think you tied to automatic rejection when it comes to Amir. Surya says he is pretentious and that his fraudulence is a foregone conclusion. And thus Surya has fallen into the fallacy of choosing a rival/enemy to sate his intellectual thirst. Since he has this very strict cirteria that one has to satisfy certain things that many Indian yogis did to attain enlightenment.
What is your excuse? Perhaps because the nature of his comments, the ‘i-know-how’ thing is bugging you? Yet it is possible that perhaps he has come to know how, although not entirely, altogether.
So what if he is 25 years old? I could show you a 13 year-old kid who is far more intelligent than Einstein…
P.s. this aint a defense of Amir. This is an effort to understand why your rejection is tied to automatic
Then your next post was starting this thread at 11:27 AM. Therefore it is clear that it was the discussion on Amir’s enlightenment that sparked this discussion. I was responding directly to that. Besides this should be an Amir centric thread, because he is the only one on this forum who claims to be enlightened and has a cult 
Dear Surya Deva, you claim a Guru must be very smart, yet you act like one to Amir. Indeed, this thread looks like one big power trip for you. You act like a bully, because of something Amir said in another thread. It seems Amir has learned much from your teachings, he has not said here that he is enlightened. Why don’t you make peace with one another as a symbol of your intentions for world peace? Furthermore, someone who is pretending to be guru when clearly not does not make it harder for me to find real guru, indeed, it makes me more aware that we are all simply human.
First of all welcome to the forum Josh. I hope you enjoy it here and have good discussions 
Secondly, Amir has not said in this thread he is enlightened. However, ever since hes been on this forum he has made this claim. You should review his post history. He claims he knows the entire nature of being fully. He claims he is awakened(in the Buddha sense) He claims to be on same level of all masters of the past, including the Buddha. He claims all masters are lying at least. He claims everything he says is the truth, and everything other say is an opinion. He claims he has reached enlightment, and now is in his post-enlightenment training. He claims everything he does(walk, talk, eat) is better than others because he is awakened. He claims he can even steal if he wants despite being awakened and it would make no difference to the fact that he is awakened.
I am not this guru I am his fiercest critic on this forum. Such people should not be allowed to get away with making such claims.
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;57458]Indeed, I am not saying you started this thread to talk about Amir’s so-called enlightenment, but it was indeed the discussion about Amir’s so-called enlightenment that inspired you to start this thread.
[/QUOTE]
That may be a contributing factor, since I became aware of this thanks to your, Scales’ and Asuri’s counter-threads. Yet lets get back to the original bringing of this thread, instead of turning it into “action-reaction” entanglement. One of the reasons we cannot get out of “the great wheel” of birth-death is this entanglement if you remember We need not “react,” but “answer” to resolve the great rhetoric concerning “enlightenment.”
As I said couple of threads ago, there could be interpretations of enlightenment. The word “en-light-en-ment” needs to be scrutinised:
“en-light” refers to making something clearer, more unambiguous.
“Ment” actually is the shorter version of “mind” or “spirit” (depends on either Greek or German or Sanskrit interpretations of [I]m?nos[/I], [I]geist[/I], [I]manas[/I], respectively). So the combination of these two would give us,
enlighten + ment = enlighten the “mind” or spirit"
Thus this iteration hands out the idea that “mind” or “spirit” needs to be lightened. Accordingly, it suggests that “mind” or “spirit” was not “enlightened” in the first place. Yet does this suggest that “mind” or “spirit” was “pitch-black” in the very beginning (so to speak)? If knowledge is the light of the mind, then what does this entail for either “mind” or “spirit”?
And the question is => why was “mind” or “spirit” de-lightened in the first place?
First, these issues need to be sorted out, in order to move with the attributions of “enlightenment.”
As an example of some of the things Amir said recently that imply his enlightenment and why this is annoysome because he pretty much goes around telling people on this forum they are asleep/unconscious/ignorant.
Somebody said “IMHO” the rest of the dialogue
“Imho”
Amir: Your opinion is barely humble. Otherwise you would not be declaring the humbleness in your opinion.
Other: Easy with the animosity brother! Have I done or said anything to offend you, that warrants this kind of scathing sarcasm?
Amir: No, you have not offended me in any way and I was not being sarcastic. Your opinion was not humble. When witnessing an artificial veil, I address it immediately. When speaking of matters to do with Yoga or any of the spiritual sciences, I leave all formalities aside
Other: Hmm…when I prefaced my post with “in my humble opinion”, what makes you second guess whether there was genuine humility in it or not?
I can be humble, matter fact and yet have a strong opinion about something. My opinion is humble because I recognize that different people have different opinions. I respect their right to hold and voice those opinions. And my opinion is just another way of looking at things…so there you see…there was sincere humility involved.
Amir: “My opinion is humble because I recognize that different people have different opinions.”
Opinions are never humble. Because one is still convinced that one knows, and has come to a conclusion. Even if one is open to hearing other people’s opinions, still in the meantime you are holding onto your own conclusion. Humbleness is possible once a human being comes to a recognition of his own ignorance.
The obvious conclusion of this dialogue, where the fault of the other is simply to use the “imho” is that Amir has no opinions. He only gives truths, because he is awakened. Everybody else is in ignorance/unconscious/asleep. This is what he said to another person just an hour ago:
“Amir you are entitled to your opinion”
I do not have any opinions at all. What I have said are facts.
Is it not right to object to somebody like this? I am sorry if I making this thread amir-centric, but first of all Amir was the inspiration behind this thread and he a living example of somebody who claims to a fully enlightened being.
And the question is => why was “mind” or “spirit” de-lightened in the first place?
First, these issues need to be sorted out, in order to move with the attributions of “enlightenment.”
The best answer to this question is given by Adisankara. If you want to know the reason why the mind fell from its original pure state in the first place, you must first reach liberation You are asking basically what was before the beginning of time, which is effectively asking what was before the finite. Only the infinite mind can answer that question.
Hi HighWolf,
As I said couple of threads ago, there could be interpretations of enlightenment. The word “en-light-en-ment” needs to be scrutinised:
“en-light” refers to making something clearer, more unambiguous.
“Ment” actually is the shorter version of “mind” or “spirit” (depends on either Greek or German or Sanskrit interpretations of m?nos, geist, manas, respectively). So the combination of these two would give us,enlighten + ment = enlighten the “mind” or spirit"
if I may:
Linguistically/morphologically spoken, “enlightenment” consists of four parts:
en-light-en-ment
The core word is “light”, a noun, it’s that bright stuff coming from fire and such. The rest are modificators with no meaning of their own, they just modify the meaning of in this case - “light”.
The noun is then turned into a verb “lighten”, here it indicates an action that brings light somewhere.
The verb is turned into the very similar verb “enlighten” which indicates the process of making that light. The difference between “lighten” and “enlighten” is that bringing of light. If something/someone is lightening a place, it’s there and brings light. If something/someone is enlightening, it brings what’s necessary to lighten the room (which is the light).
Finally the verb “enlighten” is turned into a noun again with the suffix “-ment”. That one has nothing to do with “mind” or anything, it only indicates - in this case - a process or the result of one, so if you say “I was enlightened” or “I enlightened you”, the process of what had been going on there is the “enlightenment”, as well as the result is the “enlightenment”. Compare with “agreement” -> it is the process of agreeing (that goes with a debate for example, a handshake, etc.) as well as the result (terms of the agreement, I take out the trash, you clean the windows).
So linguistically spoken, enlightenment is the process where light is being made and the result of an action/procedure/occurence of the same, which would be a light that makes something bright.
Hi Surya Deva,
I am sorry if I making this thread amir-centric, but first of all Amir was the inspiration behind this thread and he a living example of somebody who claims to a fully enlightened being.
not that I care that much, but where does he? I usually see some… “questionable individuals” claming he does. Where? Link? Quote? AmirMourad?
[QUOTE=Quetzalcoatl;57466]Hi HighWolf,
Finally the verb “enlighten” is turned into a noun again with the suffix “-ment”. [B]That one has nothing to do with “mind” or anything, it only indicates - in this case - a process or the result of one, so if you say “I was enlightened” or “I enlightened you”, the process of what had been going on there is the “enlightenment”, as well as the result is the “enlightenment”. [/B]Compare with “agreement” -> it is the process of agreeing (that goes with a debate for example, a handshake, etc.) as well as the result (terms of the agreement, I take out the trash, you clean the windows).
.[/QUOTE]
That may be. Though it isn’t the case according to my interpretation. English language isn’t that simple, although “socially” simplified due to overuse. The “suffix” ment is an addendum from its Latin-Greek origins, and directly refers to “mind” or “spirit.” In that way,
Agreement: that which (is) agreed (with) mind/a state of mind
Environment: that which environed mind/a state of mind
Temperament: that which tempers mind/a state of mind
Bereavement: that which bereave mind/a state of mind for in Old English, Statement: that which states/proposes mind/a state of mind
And the list goes one. This is a part of a linguistic theory I came accross, which explains that there is no “-ment” used as suffix in Old English. Thus enlightenment becomes that “which enlightens mind/a state of mind.” The ment refers to a “state of perfect continuum” which Heidegger in its German account said the “resoluteness of [I]Dasein[/I].”
So in that sense, it comes to the original question. Surya says I need to reach liberation first to answer this question Well, I can’t (at least not for a long time). But there are some who did, such as Buddha, and his stuff is less than satisfactory, particularly, his account on evolution is inadequate.
The fact is, I question why “we need enlightenment at all.” Buddha gives four noble truths in respect to morality. But they don’t correspond to my questioning of the “quintessential” question. The question that Plato asked in Phaedo: the question concerning the paradoxical nature of the human world. Suffering and pleasure, ups and downs go hand in hand.
So in a sense, for me, an inquiry on enlightenment is an inquiry on the nature of God 
If within a moment of convoluted brilliance I once again realize that I am a God/or feel that I am in unity with God, then no mistake, the quintessential question I ask is certainly answered. And I attained “enlightenment” for only a couple of minutes, within which I feel “no need” to make an inquiry on the quintessential question. And yet when the effects of meditation/weed wear off, vritti activity returns
Perhaps people like Buddha were “high” all the time as a result of excessive weed smoking
Do you have any evidence that he wasn’t?
Hence logic dictates that one who perpetuates a “state of purposelessness” with an easy, non-questioning mind attains “the” liberation. Hence questioning serves to no end except being a means toward liberation.
Thus it might be possible to reach enlightenment via smoking weed. Many shamans had done that in the past, and for them the whole smoking was a regular practice
No offense, if this logic offends you
Sorry but I have more questions than answers. Would it be easier to think in terms as to what enlightenment is not? Often enlightenment is mentioned as a goal, something to be achieved but if it already exists within us than the more important question may be how do we notice, uncover, become aware or wake up to it?
[QUOTE=Quetzalcoatl;57468]Hi Surya Deva,
not that I care that much, but where does he? I usually see some… “questionable individuals” claming he does. Where? Link? Quote? AmirMourad?[/QUOTE]
He says it both directly and indirectly all the time. I was going to put an end to the debate on Amir’s so-called enlightenment, but you asked for links and quotes. So I will give them to you
Not just enlightenment, post enlightenment
http://www.yogaforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=53454&postcount=116
Me: You have admitted yourself you have a lot of work to do, and now you say you may pospone your expansion, to go out there teach."
Amir: Yes. Just as there is enlightenment, there is also post-enlightenment training. After I have finished the first half of my post-enlightenment discipline, I will start teaching on a wider scale.
His disciples
http://www.yogaforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=53450&postcount=114
That is fine, it is not my interest to advertise myself too openly, but to transmit in a basic form what I have discovered. Perhaps, at a later time, I will decide to postpone my own expansion and teach on a larger scale. At present, besides giving classes on Saturdays and only allowing certain disciples visit me - I remain alone so that I can continue my work with minimal distractions.
His awakening
http://www.yogaforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=53293&postcount=98
If I have come to my awakening, it is not because I am special or unique in any way. It is simply because I have done the necessary work to come to a direct perception of one’s original nature. And tremendous effort and energy is needed to come to a transformation, it is not a sit and do nothing phenomenon. As man is, his whole system is determined to prevent such a thing from arising. It took me six years of intense asceticism, investigating into as many different methods and approaches as possible, before coming to a communion with the Way.
The same level as all masters of the past
Me: “How the hell did he have a direct experience that Yogananda, Ramakrishna, Mukutunda was lying?”
That is not needed. If you come to know yourself, through and through - then you are face to face with Yogananda, Ramakrishna, Muktunda, Ramana Maharishi, Gautama Buddha, Bodhidharma, Lao Tzu, and countless Buddhas. And these are all ordinary human beings.
Implying he is on the same level of Buddha and telling Asuri he cannot recognose him
http://www.yogaforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=52508&postcount=33
“Asuri: I’ve studied these things enough to be able to recognize a false teacher”
It is not something that can be done by simply studying. To recognize a Buddha, you yourself must come to the same space as a Buddha, there is no other way. Otherwise, one can simply believe or disbelieve, trust or doubt, but one can never know. In Zen, it is said that when two Buddhas cross each others path, it is just like two theives meeting in the middle of the night. Without saying anything, without doing anything, the recognition is instantaneous, it is impossible not to detect the fragrance of the lotus.
Claiming his actions have a certain intensity
http://www.yogaforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=52327&postcount=9
Me: “I did not really understand why you threw away the paper with the question to side and then stared at it, and then slowly came back in style.”
There are many things which will be very easy to misunderstand, which are certain to be misunderstood. Often times, it can be seen as egotism, anger but it is neither egotism nor anger. Neither is it a matter of being “in style”, or out of “style”, or anything of that kind. It is simply that once you are living in a certain state of consciousness, it becomes very natural that there is a certain intensity behind one’s actions
See the entire thread which first sparked of this debate: http://www.yogaforums.com/forums/f20/meditation-for-individual-and-social-transformation-7424.html