What is right and what is wrong?

Spirituality
#1

Last few weeks I am working on a business deal. To the best of my knowledge I have not been fair in this deal. “what is fair” is a totally different topic. But for this thread, I believe I am taking full advantage of the situation for my gains, more profits, more returns that are unfair as per my concious mind. Also just so that I can take advantage of this situation and can have upper hand and control, I myself created this situation. To sum it up, I played dirty to make more gains.

This morning when I was doing pranayams, all these thoughts surrounded me completely and I was feeling bad and guilty about my actions. There was some part of me that said I should not be feeling gulity becuase this is business and I have to do it becuase I have needs, family to support, bills to pay. But some part still kept telling me I am doing something “wrong” But then if I don’t do it how will I pay my bills and support my family? How can this be wrong? Also some part of me also tells me “all this is OK” this is how it works. You have to do all this to “survive” But then again something tells me “no I do not have to do all this to survive”

In the end I convince myself, this is all in your mind. Since I went to business school and all the business experience, I learned that business comes first, everyting comes after that.

I also always had interests in religion, spirituality. My parents also always taught me on all wrong you do comes back to you, etc etc. All good you do comes back to you.

So it seems like it is all in your mind on how you were brought up thorugh your life. But what happened, happend, you can’t change it; but what do I do now? I still am at a point where I don’t know the right thing to do?

Do you also go thourgh any thing similar? How to you finally settle down?

#2

The education of a yogi begins with ethical guidelines ? the yamas and niyamas. These guidelines or precepts come before asana, pranayama, and meditation. The yamas are non-harming, truthfulness, freedom from stealing, behaviour that respects the Divine, and freedom from greed (yoga sutra II-30). This is no trivial matter. The guidelines are both universal and unconditional, and are applicable for everyone, regardless of status, place, time, or circumstance (sutra II-31).

Having these guidelines is immensely practical. They are both the beginning and the end of spiritual practice. At the beginning: How can one possibly concentrate on one?s breath while beleaguered by remorseful thoughts? At the end: How could one possibly cause harm to someone who is made from the very same spiritual substance that one is made of?

The yamas are guidelines for practice. We do the best that we can under the circumstances and strive to do better next time. There is no point in feeling guilt. Acknowledging our mistakes, correcting them where possible, and going on from there is what is called for. Guilt ? a form of anger towards oneself ? can be harmful in some ways. Seeing the precepts as guidelines for practice can be very liberating, especially when compared to the concepts of guilt in Christian religion.

In your business case, you very likely have problems with greed, freedom from stealing, truthfulness and non-harming. You state that you are still working on the deal. That means that you are still in a position to fix things. Then do so. If not, make amends and do better next time.

Perhaps your premises are incorrect ? you may be suffering from avidya (lack of knowledge). How is it that business comes before everything else? This cannot be. Surely there was a class of business ethics in your curriculum. There is such a thing as a fair profit. Obviously if your branch of business is completely unethical, you may have to switch careers. Buddha put a great emphasis on ?right livelihood? and warned his followers not to trade in arms, slaves, meat, alcohol, and drugs.

Do yoga practitioners still struggle with ethics? Of course they do. It?s part of living and being in this world. The yamas and niyamas can be of real help, though. One of my teachers often speaks of the yamas. He says that if you have trouble with one principle (e.g. freedom from stealing), then you should go to a previous principle (truthfulness or non-harming) to resolve the issue at that level.

Please remember that the precepts are there for practice. Just like following the breath in meditation. When you go astray, just come back to the principles or the breath and continue you practice.

Hope this helps.

#3

Dear Willem

You have made so many interesting points. I loved reading all of this.

In your business case, you very likely have problems with greed, freedom from stealing, truthfulness and non-harming. You state that you are still working on the deal. That means that you are still in a position to fix things. Then do so. If not, make amends and do better next time.

Yes I am still in process of this deal. But I do not know how to fix things. I do not even know what wrong I am doing exactly. I am doing a business deal and business is done for profits, maximum profits. Ethics? What is that? They are just in the books.

Perhaps your premises are incorrect ? you may be suffering from avidya (lack of knowledge). How is it that business comes before everything else? This cannot be. Surely there was a class of business ethics in your curriculum. There is such a thing as a fair profit. Obviously if your branch of business is completely unethical, you may have to switch careers. Buddha put a great emphasis on ?right livelihood? and warned his followers not to trade in arms, slaves, meat, alcohol, and drugs.

You are 100% right, I am indeed suffeing from avidya. Fair profit thing is only in the books. In the real world as an entrepreneur the only focus is “profit” the “maximum profit” Maybe “fair profit” is only a long term strategy to “maximum profit” I really do not know what is right and what is wrong and that is the very reason for this thread. I do know that in all aspects of my life I find myself in situations where I do not like to do things becuase some voices inside me tells me I am doing something wrong; but I still do becuase the other voices says I have to needs, bills to pay, responsibilities to give the best to my family. Once done it bothers me for a some time and it’s over. But I still think about all this many times but in the end I do not get any answers to any of these questions.

Do yoga practitioners still struggle with ethics? Of course they do. It?s part of living and being in this world. The yamas and niyamas can be of real help, though. One of my teachers often speaks of the yamas. He says that if you have trouble with one principle (e.g. freedom from stealing), then you should go to a previous principle (truthfulness or non-harming) to resolve the issue at that level.

The yamas and niyamas seem to be the ultimate truth of living life; but how many people do any of us in here know to live their lives as per yamas and niyamas. People just tend to “tailor” the niyamas and yamas to their needs. What I mean is many many people claim to follow some part of it but not 100%. Doesn’t that mean they just tailored it what suits them? In that case why would it be wrong for some people do deal in arms, slaves and drugs. It suits them.

Please remember that the precepts are there for practice. Just like following the breath in meditation. When you go astray, just come back to the principles or the breath and continue you practice.

Hope this helps

I understand what you mean and I kind of do the same thing in my life that is come back to principles when I go ashtry, but wouldn’t that be just coming up with my own “niyamas” and having no respect for the original “niyamas” ?

#4

There is no right or wrong, these are constructs of our Ego and mind. There is only that which is appropriate to you and what you have to experience and learn in this life.

#5

I am the president of a good sized company. I can understand your dilemma. Business is business. However, I will always consider every transaction from a win/win perspective. I cannot take advantage of a situation where someone on the other end feels slighted, regardless of their situation. The way I look at it, in all things what goes around comes around. Just make sure the other party can benefit as well. I have yet to find an example where that cannot be done.

#6

Truthsiness

It is something which sounds like truth, but it is not true.

We have to pay attention to this when we have to
discern between right and wrong.

Note: It is mentioned in the today’s issue of my newspaper as
a new English word.

#7

AUM…

[QUOTE=yalgaar;19251]Last few weeks I am working on a business deal. To the best of my knowledge I have not been fair in this deal. “what is fair” is a totally different topic. But for this thread, I believe I am taking full advantage of the situation for my gains, more profits, more returns that are unfair as per my concious mind. Also just so that I can take advantage of this situation and can have upper hand and control, I myself created this situation. To sum it up, I played dirty to make more gains.

This morning when I was doing pranayams, all these thoughts surrounded me completely and I was feeling bad and guilty about my actions. There was some part of me that said I should not be feeling gulity becuase this is business and I have to do it becuase I have needs, family to support, bills to pay. But some part still kept telling me I am doing something “wrong” But then if I don’t do it how will I pay my bills and support my family? How can this be wrong? Also some part of me also tells me “all this is OK” this is how it works. You have to do all this to “survive” But then again something tells me “no I do not have to do all this to survive”

In the end I convince myself, this is all in your mind. Since I went to business school and all the business experience, I learned that business comes first, everyting comes after that.

I also always had interests in religion, spirituality. My parents also always taught me on all wrong you do comes back to you, etc etc. All good you do comes back to you.

So it seems like it is all in your mind on how you were brought up thorugh your life. But what happened, happend, you can’t change it; but what do I do now? I still am at a point where I don’t know the right thing to do?

Do you also go thourgh any thing similar? How to you finally settle down?[/QUOTE]

i congratulate you buddy, you seem to have some soul…although it is still calling you from afar…it has been dumped under five sheaths or pa?ca-koṣas but at least you could hear the far cry…

coming to the points…

yes, the family needs are there, but family are also an expansion of our ego…a soul doesn’t have any family member or stuff like that…it is a part of Supersoul. It is unborn and eternal…

a soul gets a different set of other souls as family members in each of its birth, so the people you might have cheated might be in one birth your family members…this is the cycle of birth and death…

we can only survive in this world if we are one of these…
stupid, ignorant, forgetful or sinful.

if you repent or have a penance, you surely will be answered and you won’t need internet forums to answer those questions…

anyway, good to hear some ethical talking in this kaliyuga…

keep it up…

Rām Kṛpālu dās

#8

Most of us are taught to play hard, but to play by the rules. I’m sure that this can become subjective in business, though.

For example - a business has to lay off people to please the shareholders and to guarantee the survival and livelihood of the remaining employees. If this deal was made fairly, then the people who made the decision can probably sleep at night. If they did some insider trading, or had to lay people off because they were doing something else illegal, then they will either soon justify any means to an end, or not be able to live with themselves and try to make it right.

One question might be whether a cheater ever really wins in the end. So, I think it’s fair to say that once you think you are above the rules, then you will cause undo suffering and bad karma. Good luck with these tough decisions.

#9

[QUOTE=CCAdkins;21261]Most of us are taught to play hard, but to play by the rules. I’m sure that this can become subjective in business, though.

For example - a business has to lay off people to please the shareholders and to guarantee the survival and livelihood of the remaining employees. If this deal was made fairly, then the people who made the decision can probably sleep at night. If they did some insider trading, or had to lay people off because they were doing something else illegal, then they will either soon justify any means to an end, or not be able to live with themselves and try to make it right.

One question might be whether a cheater ever really wins in the end. So, I think it’s fair to say that once you think you are above the rules, then you will cause undo suffering and bad karma. Good luck with these tough decisions.[/QUOTE]

Good points.

If a society is based on profit, I cannot see how you can avoid things …
…less than moral.

Do cheater win in the end ? Well, there are several ends.

End # 1: he cannot sleep right at night and he lives in fear of being caught.
See Madoff case.

End # 2: He escaped the law but his company is gong down and his
dollars are in danger, due to big brother watching and trying
to claw back. See the secret bank accounts in Switzerland now
being exposed.

End # 3: wide spreading of the fraud leads to financial decay of the country.

End #…empteen: Karma, hell.

#10

I agree with FlexPenguin – if you and the person with whom you are doing business are well matched, you can leave it up to him/her to also play you as hard as possible to achieve maximum profits or his/her ends. That’s how capitalism is supposed to arrive at a fair exchange between two different people with (potentially) different values and goals. If you’re dealing with someone you have over a barrel, so to say, then you are being exploitative. Look at what return you expect from this deal and do what you can to give that person a similar return.

#11

Capitalism is creation of some crazy minds, just like communism. Marx was Hegel’s most brilliant disciple … the very one who has thrown away any spirituality in favor of a purely materialist view.

Business - maximum profit - this kind of thinking is more destructive than it appears to us. Survival of the fittest - this is a purely materialist idea. The spirit of nature, maybe, but not spirit of man. Man is more than a natural being, a sofisticated animal. The most insensitive people who I know have an egoistic, shut attitude towards morality and ethics, saying, that it is nothing but a social norm. The problem with those people who are satisfied by a purely materialist explanation of their existence (evolutionary theory, materialist scientific world-view) who often also use the “survival of the fittest” thought as a wall between their actions and their conscience, the problem with these is that ultimately, they will be able to do anything if they know they can get away with it. In a totally immoral society, the only and ultimate sin is the stupidity of being caught. These people are very smart and these people “succeed” in politics and business, because for them, anything goes.

There is a huge difference between being able to provide for a family, and being a cold hearted business shark. Only in an artificially kept up net of virtual needs, an overly consumerist enviroment is hard to provide for a family. A human being needs very little to survive, and especially those who think they are good providers, spend the less time with their loved ones.

Your conscience has spoken. It has spoken because you went too far. Your conscience detected that you have passed a dangerous threshold.
What it says: I have given up something important, for something less important. In time, you will see, it was right. Our conscience is always right, that’s the annoying thing about it.

PS. Thanks for sharing.

#12

[QUOTE=Techne;21268]I agree with FlexPenguin – if you and the person with whom you are doing business are well matched, you can leave it up to him/her to also play you as hard as possible to achieve maximum profits or his/her ends. That’s how capitalism is supposed to arrive at a fair exchange between two different people with (potentially) different values and goals. If you’re dealing with someone you have over a barrel, so to say, then you are being exploitative. Look at what return you expect from this deal and do what you can to give that person a similar return.[/QUOTE]

Somebody told me a business saying: “There is no honest merchant.”

#13

Hello Yalgaar,

If I understand your question it is “How do I balance a chosen life on the yogic path in the context of modern or current-day living?”.

One of the great benefits I’ve gleened (from my practice) is an ability to think, weigh, decide, then act based on a framework of the path of yoga. This mandates an ever-growing awareness, an urge to grow, and a willingness to change (me). While each thing that arises must certainly be taken on its own merits, case by case, the framework rarely changes.

As Pandara outlines, there is no right and there is no wrong. However there is certainly “what is appropriate for me, in this situation, this moment, based on why I am here on the planet in this body?”. In Purna Yoga™ we are taught that the practice should help us to explore, discover, then live our purpose, our personal mission, our svadharma. Therefore, what is appropriate must vary from one person to the next.

Furthermore, as mentioned elsewhere here, that personal mission fits together like cogs of a wheel with the Yamas, Niyamas, and Kleshas (for a person on the yoga path - not for those not on that path, of course).

If the student - in this case you - is creating disharmony inside the Self then they are surely creating disharmony outside of the Self. That lack of harmony can only lead to suffering and I am speaking about more than a contusion of muscle.

It is, of course very possible to do business, earn a living, feed your family, and have exactly what is needed for YOUR dharma (no less and no more) AND maintain integrity in dealings. One can bargain with great effort without any aggression just as one can powerfully contract their quadriceps without any performing or violence. Neither happens inherently.

#14

[QUOTE=CCAdkins;21261]

One question might be whether a cheater ever really wins in the end. So, I think it’s fair to say that once you think you are above the rules, then you will cause undo suffering and bad karma. Good luck with these tough decisions.[/QUOTE]

Good question. Lord Buddha has the answer in Dhammapada:

There is no place to hide
for one who creates harm,
neither in the sky, the sea
nor upon a mountain top.
There is no escape from the
consequences of harmful deeds.

Clear enough. Creating harm will cause incredible sorrow and suffering, in this life and the many lives to come.

#15

[QUOTE=Hubert;21271]Capitalism is creation of some crazy minds, just like communism. Marx was Hegel’s most brilliant disciple … the very one who has thrown away any spirituality in favor of a purely materialist view.

.[/QUOTE]

What system has been good so far ? Sclavagism, feudalism were not really good either.

I will go a little further: what system could be good ? As Einstein and Marie Curie pointed clearly, you should change the minds (and hearts!) of the people. Unless people are good to each other there can be no good system.

As I used to say: there can be no good football team with bad football players.

All a system can do is to introduce measures (laws) to punish bad deeds, which are still in the minds of the people. What about measures to take the bad deeds out of the minds of the people ?

#16

… stood still on a highway, I saw a woman, by the side of the road
with a face like I knew like my own, reflected, in my window
well she walked up by my quarterlight, and she backed down real slow
a fear for pressure, paralysed me, in my shadow

she said son, what are you doing here
my fear for you has turned me in my grave
I said momma I’ve come to the valley of the rich, myself to self
she said, son, this is the road to hell … "

#17

[QUOTE=oak333;21274]Somebody told me a business saying: “There is no honest merchant.”[/QUOTE]

By the nature of right and wrong - that somebody was wrong.

#18

I guess what InnerAthelete says is, to always take a look at things from many perspectives. There are perspectives whence things appear as plainly wrong. But again, under the circumstances of one’s specific karma, who is to say, what is right and what is wrong ?

This is true for us, too. And often, we have to watch as our karmas collide. Now, if we are yogis (or spiritual disciples of any kind), we might even arrive to a level where we know our karma, and we accept it. Like Ramana Maharshi accepted cancer. His body had to follow it’s own karma, but the entity of Ramana has left that body for long - not as death, but as death of attachment.
Or like Arjuna who had to commit fratricide. Strenghetned by yoga and knowledge of the eternal Self, what swords cannot pierce, he did what he had to do.

#19

It could be this and it could be that.
In fact it could be BOTH this and that.

#20

Hey Folks,

A couple phrases from the Sutras. Just for fun.

1.5. The modifications of the mind are five-fold and are painful or not-painful.
1.6. (They are) right knowledge, wrong knowledge, fancy, sleep, and memory.
1.8. Wrong knowledge is a false conception of a thing whose real form does not correspond to such a mistaken conception.

So according to this, there is definitely right and wrong, only it either matters or it doesn’t?

Personally, I don’t think there’s much worse we can do to ourselves and each other than project or hold false concept, either through ignorance or ego. It adds up the same. It’s just poison, and denies us any modicum of truthful existence. (If you ask me what that is…it’s plain happiness.) If we do that and then exploit it to our advantage for personal gain of any kind. Geez. I think we’re a dead duck.

To create a win-win situation is always harder, but usually doable, if it’s what you want. It makes for a great night’s sleep too. Even if you’re broke. What did you really have to gain anyway?

Peace,
siva