Will America become Hindu by the end of the century?

[QUOTE=thomas;47655]What’s the alternative?

Because of capitalism we have all kinds of good things, including hospitals and cures for diseases which would have killed people in their youth in pre-capitalistic days.[/quote]

There are hospitals and universities in communist countries too :wink: In fact the very first country to have hospitals and universities was India, and that was not capitalist, but had its own Vedic system of society.

Therefore, it is not because of capitalism that we have hospitals and universities etc, otherwise communist countries and the Vedic system of society would not have them.

At what point does it become evil?

It’s just a system. A system isn’t evil. Sure there could be evil people exploiting it, but I think any other system could be exploited in worse ways.

The system itself is based on exploitation. This is basic sociology that we get at school. Capitalism thrives on creating surplus value. It goes a bit like this: the workers works for the capitalists(the ones that own the capital, land and means of production) in exchange for wages. The worker createss for the capitalist the product which the capitalists then sell on the market at a higher value than was used to make it and creating a huge profit for the capitalist. The wage the worker gets paid is extremely disproportionate to the profit that they make from selling the product(the workers made!) thus creating a surplus value for the capitalist. In other words the worker is exploited by the capitalist.

Hilariously, then the workers uses the wages they made to buy the products that they contributed in making, thus giving back capital to the capitalist. The worker is alienated from the product they made. The product becomes the property of the capitalist. The profit, i.e., the surplus value, become the profit of the capitalist.

In order to generate more profit the capitalist has to undercut the wage of the workers. In order to compete with other capitalists the capitalist must lower the price of their product, but by cutting prices they have to simultaneuosly get their profit from elsewhere, and this happens at the workers expense. Today, capitalists can give us cheap products(televisions, clothes, laptops, cars) but they do so by outsourcing their work to cheap labour in third world countries, where the workers are paid abysmally low wages. As a consequence workers in the first world lose jobs.

The capitalists can make even greater profit by cutting the number of workers and replacing them with machines(automation) and increase their productivity and effiency. Today, many jobs that were previously done by workers are now done by machines. As a consequence jobs are lost.

A major contradiction which exists within capitalism is the tendency towards monopolization. Capitalist companies with one another and the one with greater purchasing power buys out the smaller company, as a result capital starts to fall into fewer and fewer hands and capitalists get richer, richer and even more richer and the gap widens between the capitalists and the workers. The extent of the power of companies today is such that they could buy out most countries in the world and have their own armies. This was not the case a few hundred years ago.

These three major contradictions in capitalism 1) undercutting the wages of workers 2) automation and 3) monopolization make capitalism a completely unsustinable system. This is why Marx said that capitalism has its own seeds of destruction. Hence why capitalism has historically been in crisis(wall street crash, great depression, recessions, global economic meltdown)

Capitalism works great… exceedingly great… for the rich. It allows them to keep almost all the capital in the world to themselves and everybody else just becomes a pauper. It can be seen today with the gradual disappearance of the middle classes in the first world countries, with the masses becoming equally pauperized. It can equally be seen just how powerful capitalists are today and how they are able to control everything in the world(foreign policies, international law, international regulations) and even decisions to go to war are based on capitalist intervention(Iraq etc) Weber called this beaurocratic capitalism.

In the end the future we are heading towards with capitalism is a refeadualized world where a very select and elite few control the world and the rest are dominated and controlled. A global technocratic dystopia. It might as well be ancient Sumeria.

In the US a person can be in an independent business with practially nothing, and build up to something substantial. There is room for all to grow and prosper, and this growth and prosperity is not at the expense of making someone else poorer.

Yep, and what happens to those small independent businesses eventually? They get bought out by the huge multinational monopolies. Capitalism is tipped in the favour of the rich. It is money that talks. A small independent company simply cannot compete. It is no surprise that the richest and most powerful families in the world have historically always been rich and come from elite families going back hundreds of years.

The capitalists can make even greater profit by cutting the number of workers and replacing them with machines(automation) and increase their productivity and effiency. Today, many jobs that were previously done by workers are now done by machines. As a consequence jobs are lost.

So?

You want laborers manufacturing horse whips? We lost a lot of ice delivery jobs when refrigerators were brought to us by the greedy evil captilasts. Would it be better they have their ice-delivery jobs and we have to work with giant chunks of ice to keep our food cold?

If machines can do the work of people, that’s wonderful. That frees those people to do other meaningful work.

Yep, and what happens to those small independent businesses eventually? They get bought out by the huge multinational monopolies? Capitalism is tipped in the favour of the rich. It is money that talks. A small independent company simply cannot compete.

Well that’s total BS. There are thousands of prosperous small businesses and manufacturers in the US. A small independent company can fill niches that the large companies cannot.

Capitalism works great… exceedingly great… for the rich. It allows them to keep almost all the capital in the world to themselves and everybody else just becomes a pauper.

Well it’s too darn bad we aren’t living like they did 300 years ago before capitalism and when the lifespan was 40, and everyone had to work from dusk to dawn to eke out a living. Too bad we are all “paupers” who have the weekends off, have vacations, flat screen TVs, a variety of foods fit for a king, cures for illnesses that in the past wiped out millions, etc. etc. etc. etc.

These three major contradictions in capitalism 1) undercutting the wages of workers 2) automation and 3) monopolization make capitalism a completely unsustinable system. This is why Marx said that capitalism has its own seeds of destruction. Hence why capitalism has historically been in crisis(wall street crash, great depression, recessions, global economic meltdown)

Economies always have ups and downs. There are periods of growth and expansion, and then overbuidling and overreaching, and then there is a shakeout and the market corrects itself. This is success and not failure.

The fact is that because of capitalism we are all far richer than we would be without it.

Are you a Marxist? You don’t believe in a free market?

[QUOTE=thomas;47810]Economies always have ups and downs. There are periods of growth and expansion, and then overbuidling and overreaching, and then there is a shakeout and the market corrects itself. This is success and not failure.

The fact is that because of capitalism we are all far richer than we would be without it.

Are you a Marxist? You don’t believe in a free market?[/QUOTE]

It’s like these kids read some Howard Zinn & think they have the whole story… :rolleyes:

[QUOTE=thomas;47809]So?

You want laborers manufacturing horse whips? We lost a lot of ice delivery jobs when refrigerators were brought to us by the greedy evil captilasts. Would it be better they have their ice-delivery jobs and we have to work with giant chunks of ice to keep our food cold?

If machines can do the work of people, that’s wonderful. That frees those people to do other meaningful work.

Well that’s total BS. There are thousands of prosperous small businesses and manufacturers in the US. A small independent company can fill niches that the large companies cannot.

Well it’s too darn bad we aren’t living like they did 300 years ago before capitalism and when the lifespan was 40, and everyone had to work from dusk to dawn to eke out a living. Too bad we are all “paupers” who have the weekends off, have vacations, flat screen TVs, a variety of foods fit for a king, cures for illnesses that in the past wiped out millions, etc. etc. etc. etc.[/QUOTE]

Yes we should return to the Horse and cart and deal in shells, fish, and grain…Ha…I remember my Father commented many years ago that he had never met a more unhappy bunch of people than he did in Russia…and as my brothers wife is Cuban, they too cant wait for their government to die If you want a visa to travel to Britain fast, you just give them some under the table money and you get it…they are all corrupt in their dealings.,everything is hidden…they want what Capitalists have and resent their own government…

All the people taking part in this thread are happy to use the parts of Capitalism that suit there ends…you are all hypocrites and you know who you are…

Haha, Thomas I am going to dub you now the reality denier.

You want laborers manufacturing horse whips? We lost a lot of ice delivery jobs when refrigerators were brought to us by the greedy evil captilasts. Would it be better they have their ice-delivery jobs and we have to work with giant chunks of ice to keep our food cold?

If machines can do the work of people, that’s wonderful. That frees those people to do other meaningful work.

Nope, what it does is it means lesser and lesser jobs are done by people and more and more jobs are done by machines. Eventually, all jobs can be done by machines as the intelligence of machines increases. This means a massive increase in unemployment.

Well that’s total BS. There are thousands of prosperous small businesses and manufacturers in the US. A small independent company can fill niches that the large companies cannot.

That rely on larger companies for their products. The small businesses and manufacturers are allowed to exist by the large companies, as long as they do not pose any threat to them and cooperate with them. Taking out a small company is easy for a big company.

Well it’s too darn bad we aren’t living like they did 300 years ago before capitalism and when the lifespan was 40, and everyone had to work from dusk to dawn to eke out a living. Too bad we are all “paupers” who have the weekends off, have vacations, flat screen TVs, a variety of foods fit for a king, cures for illnesses that in the past wiped out millions, etc. etc. etc. etc.

This has nothing to do with capitalism. 300 years ago Indian people were living very well, had higher life spans, schools, colleges, universities, hospitals and they did not have a capitalist society, but a Vedic society.

The capitalists did not produce the TV. The TV was an invention by an inventor. The capitalists then appropriated the TV. They created the means of production to mass-produce them(factories) hired out workers to operate the means of production(assemlbly lines, machines) Then it sold those TV’s on the market at a price higher than was used to make it, and thereby the capitalists got rich and richer. Then in order to deliver the same product at lower prices on the market they undercut the wages of the workers by outsourching to third world countries.

Your flat screen tvs, laptops, other electronics, foods, clothes all all produced in third world countries by exploiting their cheap labour. I hope you are proud :wink:

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;47837]Eventually, all jobs can be done by machines as the intelligence of machines increases. This means a massive increase in unemployment.[/QUOTE]…which creates an ‘industrial reserve army’ which in turn makes it possible to keep wages at minimum.

Thomas: Just because one is critical towards capitalism, one does not necessarily have to be a Marxist. Personally, I believe Marx provides a very very good instrument in deconstructing capitalism, but I do not necessarily think that communism is a more rational solution. I am therefore a Marxist, but not a communist.

Economies always have ups and downs. There are periods of growth and expansion, and then overbuidling and overreaching, and then there is a shakeout and the market corrects itself. This is success and not failure.

The fact is that because of capitalism we are all far richer than we would be without it.

Are you a Marxist? You don’t believe in a free market?

There is only these ups and downs and flucutations in the market because capitalism is based on competition which means there is uncertainty in the market always. In the Vedic economy which is based on a functional society, there is no competition, because all production in this society is geared towards fulfilling functional needs of society so that society can keep running. Production in a capitalist society is geared towards producing profit for the capitalist and making them rich and powerful.

I can see why you very easily accept inequality, because your religion itself sanctifies inequality. Your religion is based on dichotomies of chosen and unchosen, condemned and saved, clergy and non-clergy. Capitalism naturally fits into your religious - Abrahamic worldview.

Economic crisis does not affect the capitalists, it affects the masses(workers) In fact capitalists thrive in situations like crisis, war, because these are the most profitable times. When the state is in trouble, the capitalists then bail out the state and by doing so gain some control of the state. Ask yourself who really owns America. In the previous crisis times America was bought by powerful banking families, who weild massive influence on American foreign and domestic policy.

Simply put, the people have allowed for the creation of the rich and powerful as a dominant class. Today, they are so powerful, they can do anything they want and the people will not be able to do anything against them. Such as wage illegal wars :wink: The next few generations are going to hate people like you, who justify such a system of oppression, exploitation, inequality — but then again you are Christian and your own religion is based on those values. This is why I believe your religion needs to be taken down. Nothing personal.

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;47837]Haha, Thomas I am going to dub you now the reality denier.

Nope, what it does is it means lesser and lesser jobs are done by people and more and more jobs are done by machines. Eventually, all jobs can be done by machines as the intelligence of machines increases. This means a massive increase in unemployment.

That rely on larger companies for their products. The small businesses and manufacturers are allowed to exist by the large companies, as long as they do not pose any threat to them and cooperate with them. Taking out a small company is easy for a big company.

This has nothing to do with capitalism. 300 years ago Indian people were living very well, had higher life spans, schools, colleges, universities, hospitals and they did not have a capitalist society, but a Vedic society.

The capitalists did not produce the TV. The TV was an invention by an inventor. The capitalists then appropriated the TV. They created the means of production to mass-produce them(factories) hired out workers to operate the means of production(assemlbly lines, machines) Then it sold those TV’s on the market at a price higher than was used to make it, and thereby the capitalists got rich and richer. Then in order to deliver the same product at lower prices on the market they undercut the wages of the workers by outsourching to third world countries.

Your flat screen tvs, laptops, other electronics, foods, clothes all all produced in third world countries by exploiting their cheap labour. I hope you are proud ;)[/QUOTE]

Yes but you make full use of these computers, tv’s, telephones, mobile phones,etc etc etc…so you are a hypocrate

It is already been answered I have no choice but to make use of these things. This does not mean I cannot be critical of them and where they come from.

Quote Surya…This is why I believe your religion needs to be taken down. Nothing personal.

Like I said, you are a dictator…

From what I can see so far it appears what this debate is realy about is between critical, and progressive thinkers who accept the current systems of the world are flawed and need to be replaced by something else, and uncritical and non-progressive thinkers who do not see the flaws in the current system of the world or worse justify those flaws and do not want to replace it.

They are happy with their flat screen tv, mobile phones and laptops, without realising what the cost is to humanity for them to have that. Nor do they realise that these goodies are not sustainable and they will soon be just as poor as their fellow humans in third world countries as the middle class crumbles before their very eyes.

The reason for this is the Abrahamic religions and their influence on our current worldview. We must get rid of the Abrahamic religions for good. It is no coincidence that the people fighting tooth and nail with us to defend the Abrahamic religions are the same people fighting tooth and nail to defend capitalism :wink:

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;47848]From what I can see so far it appears what this debate is realy about is between critical, and progressive thinkers who accept the current systems of the world are flawed and need to be replaced by something else, and uncritical and non-progressive thinkers who do not see the flaws in the current system of the world or worse justify those flaws and do not want to replace it.

They are happy with their flat screen tv, mobile phones and laptops, without realising what the cost is to humanity for them to have that. Nor do they realise that these goodies are not sustainable and they will soon be just as poor as their fellow humans in third world countries as the middle class crumbles before their very eyes.

The reason for this is the Abrahamic religions and their influence on our current worldview. We must get rid of the Abrahamic religions for good. It is no coincidence that the people fighting tooth and nail with us to defend the Abrahamic religions are the same people fighting tooth and nail to defend capitalism ;)[/QUOTE]

Your using the computers, mobile phones…Hindus own businesses, stay open long hours to earn as much as they can…when they go to the market, do they choose the best orange on one stall or some inferior ones on another stall? Do they buy a second hand old used car or do they look for a nice new car?..

My defense of Abrahamic religions is because there are many who gain great spiritual satisfaction from their faith…

[QUOTE=kareng;47853]Your using the computers, mobile phones…Hindus own businesses, stay open long hours to earn as much as they can…when they go to the market, do they choose the best orange on one stall or some inferior ones on another stall? Do they buy a second hand old used car or do they look for a nice new car?..

My defense of Abrahamic religions is because there are many who gain great spiritual satisfaction from their faith…[/QUOTE]

Spiritual satisfaction, for the most part, to comfortably denounce other faiths and spread hatred and ignorance about them.

No, its simple, try telling a Hindu Master to become a Christian say…do you think he or she might?..,I mean all that experience this Hindu Master has, all the things he or she has experienced just thrown out because a Christian thinks their religion is the one…yes?

Christian answer

The donor Sue Tennant raises 140,000 $ annualy to provide free schooling in remote villages in India, Bangladesh and Thailand.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/managing/giving-back/providing-schooling-in-remote-villages/article1870953/

[QUOTE=oak333;47942]Christian answer

The donor Sue Tennant raises 140,000 $ annualy to provide free schooling in remote villages in India, Bangladesh and Thailand.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/managing/giving-back/providing-schooling-in-remote-villages/article1870953/[/QUOTE]

Those "schools" are probably brainwashing Hindu kids into becoming anti-Indian Christians. I have seen it happen when I was a child. Fool.

Hindu answer:

A far greater organization than anything any Christian could ever hope to establish in a "pagan" country.

I think the squeeze on the middle class in the US is due not to capitalism, which has created and enriched the middle class, but because of confiscatory taxes, and monopolistic labor unions, expecially those in the government sectors. Deals were made for unreasonable pension plans, and retirees are being paid well to do nothing, and it’s unsustainable, and an ever increasing burding on the tax payer.

I’m getting into this late, so I will just start with thomas most recent post. I agree that part of the problem in our economy has to do with labor unions. But look at the kinds of unions you are talking about: police, fire, teachers, government clerical workers. These are all fairly well educated people, which is why they still have unions. They know that without them, they would be having just as hard a time as the people who actually have to work for a living. Except for a few pockets of skilled trades, protections for these people are all but gone.

We do not have “confiscatory” taxes in this country. In fact, taxes on the wealthy are at their lowest levels in decades. But have we seen that money go into economic development? No. It goes into whatever scheme produces the most short-term profit. And when they finally bring us all to the brink of disaster, they’re first in line at the government hand-out trough. Except for their mouthpieces on the sidelines, who kept preaching that we should allow the economy to collapse into depression. What sense would that make? That would allow them to depress wages even further.

I have to agree with thomas’ other statement too, that the squeeze on the middle class isn’t caused by capitalism. It’s caused by capitalists. The middle class was not created by capitalists. It was created by far-sighted people who knew that an educated middle class is necessary for democracy, and who made education widely accessible. When the middle class becomes weakened, then it will be much easier for the wealthy to rule unencumbered. How often have you heard them say that they just want government to get out of the way? Of course they do.

Mind you I’m not advocating the destruction of the free market system. I think it has lots of advantages. But I think it’s high time that the government did its job and reigned-in these extremely powerful economic interests. I believe these interests are really our worst enemies. They live right here with us and profit from us every day, yet they have no allegiance to their countrymen. Their only allegiance is to money.

Their influence is very calculated and insidious. They side with organized religion on a few key moral issues, in order to gain their support, and have been quite successful in achieving that goal. Forty years ago, you would not have heard the Catholic Church defending capitalism. But I assure you, their support for your moral issues is as cynical as it can get. They care nothing about morality, unless they can use it to gain power and money.

  • “they” refers to the powerful economic interests in the United States, who exercise great influence and control, and are the enemies of the working class and middle class, and of democratic government.