In regards to the deities. They are part of the cosmological system which some call ‘reality.’
They are as real as me and you.
But they are not like me and you - thats for sure.
[QUOTE=Hubert;57308]True. Than again, what you find if you go deep enough is the same what you find going outside to the same extent. In ancient mysteries, the mithraic initiations represent the latter. But being mysteries, one will not find much about it … anyway, yoga also was practiced in a context what we could call mistery, as it was always linked to a guru, and was preceeded by careful preparations, unlike what we have today.
We must credit western “looking to the outside” for the very fact that we can carry a conversation as this, about a subject what once was limited to few.
About how the approach to spirituality has changed in the last ten thousand of years, we could talk a lot. Yes, yoga really was at home in the proto-indian culture, and what we have left today as exoteric form is not directly applicable. Why ? Because there is an evolution of human consciusness, of the human soul, also. We do not just reincarnate over and over again without purpose. Now, should this rule out practicing yoga ? Depends, what that yoga is. Is it dangerous ? Damn sure it is. Not just for christians, but for anyone.
Mostly because today, it’s practice is more often than not based on either a total disregard of it’s spiritual aspects, or what is even worse, based on a naive and superficial approach of it’s deeper teaching.[/QUOTE]
I once heard Pattabhi Jois talk about the “Outer Yoga” and the “Inner Yoga”. Outer Yoga is the first four limbs of the Ashtanga, Inner Yoga is the last four limbs of the Ashtanga. One needs all eight and the outer forms the foundation for the inner. The exoteric form needs to give way to the esoteric form…otherwise it is not Yoga.
But to each his/her own, based on karma. Practicing Yoga under a qualified teacher is NOT Dangerous, period! Will it give rise to the “Dark night of the soul”, sure it will…but that depends on the inner conflicts that affect us (and in each it is different). But without that “struggle”, how do we hope to get to a more mature and evolved state of consciousness than where we are right now? That’s all the more reason to find a good teacher who has a solid foundation of not just physical yoga, but also the inner aspect of Yoga.
The teacher needs to know what kind of “issues” might rise to the surface as the practice deepens. What kind of unresolved psychological problems surface, how one should go about addressing these. How emotional or psychological problems might manifest in a physical form (physical blockages affecting health), how spiritual problems (karmic entanglements) can cause cascading effects in the outer layers, etc. To be able to go deep, one needs such a good teacher. Are there such people around? Sure…but you might not find them in your local yoga studio…
Where do you find these people then? The answer is “When the time is right”…but get started first…the rest will automatically unfold as your yoga matures.
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;57310]
In Western culture maybe, not dharmic culture. Yoga has [B]always[/B] been out in the open in India. It was part of the curriculum of the Indian education system. You always knew about it, it was your choice whether you wanted to take the ascetic path. Everybody would take the ascetic path at some stage in their life.[/QUOTE]
Define always.
[QUOTE=The Scales;57314]In regards to the deities. They are part of the cosmological system which some call ‘reality.’
They are as real as me and you.
But they are not like me and you - thats for sure.[/QUOTE]
The bad ones often look like you do. 
Define always.
Since the beginning of Vedic civilisation in 7000BCE. Education has always been the prime value of our culture. Everybody got an education. Yoga has been practiced since the beginning by Vedic people.
[QUOTE=Hubert;57336]The bad ones often look like you do. ;)[/QUOTE]
Ha!
uh
Define please. “the bad ones.”
[QUOTE=Dwai;57333]I once heard Pattabhi Jois talk about the “Outer Yoga” and the “Inner Yoga”. Outer Yoga is the first four limbs of the Ashtanga, Inner Yoga is the last four limbs of the Ashtanga. One needs all eight and the outer forms the foundation for the inner. The exoteric form needs to give way to the esoteric form…otherwise it is not Yoga.
But to each his/her own, based on karma. Practicing Yoga under a qualified teacher is NOT Dangerous, period! Will it give rise to the “Dark night of the soul”, sure it will…but that depends on the inner conflicts that affect us (and in each it is different). But without that “struggle”, how do we hope to get to a more mature and evolved state of consciousness than where we are right now? That’s all the more reason to find a good teacher who has a solid foundation of not just physical yoga, but also the inner aspect of Yoga.
The teacher needs to know what kind of “issues” might rise to the surface as the practice deepens. What kind of unresolved psychological problems surface, how one should go about addressing these. How emotional or psychological problems might manifest in a physical form (physical blockages affecting health), how spiritual problems (karmic entanglements) can cause cascading effects in the outer layers, etc. To be able to go deep, one needs such a good teacher. Are there such people around? Sure…but you might not find them in your local yoga studio…
Where do you find these people then? The answer is “When the time is right”…but get started first…the rest will automatically unfold as your yoga matures.[/QUOTE]
Good Post.
Your growing on me.
[QUOTE=Dwai;57333]I once heard Pattabhi Jois talk about the “Outer Yoga” and the “Inner Yoga”. [/QUOTE]
When I was speaking of inside and outside, I was not meaning this, this is your interpretation.
By going the opposite way, what northern western cultures followed (before this materialist time) was finding the spiritual realities behind world phenomena. Either way, one ultimatley arrives to the same “gods”. Anyway, today it is hard to grasp that differences between cultures, peoples, root deeper than the superficial aspects of their language, clothes or textualized believes. Especially for americans, because you do have everything there in one big bucket. Which is just as it supposed to be, yet, without discernment we will not comprehend our past.
PS: Define qualified teacher.
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;57338]Since the beginning of Vedic civilisation in 7000BCE. Education has always been the prime value of our culture. Everybody got an education. Yoga has been practiced since the beginning by Vedic people.[/QUOTE]
So you say, in all these 9 thousand years, you did not change in any way ?
[QUOTE=The Scales;57339]
Define please. “the bad ones.”[/QUOTE]
The bad ones who poor salt in your sugarbox.
Indeed, there is no good or bad in that reality you speak of. But for timely beings as us, sometimes untimely things appear as bad. Anyway, you are the one calling others idiots, and this qualifies you as mischievous. Not that I judge you, it’s a simple asessment. I am sure you also posess better qualities, what might reveal themselves if I will pay attention to this forum in the future.
Dwai introduced an interesting concept called the categorical framework in the “Is Yoga Hinduism thread” and by analysing the categorical framework of each culture on this planet we can come up a clear understanding of the differences between cultures. Although in todays globalized world it may indeed seem like everything has just coalesed into one culture, if you investigate the categorical frameworks of each culture, you will realise that is not the case, and each culture is still distinct and is responding to globalization in its own unique way.
There was no Yoga tradition in Europe prior to the 18th-19th century. I do not want to sound secetarian, but I have to point this out whenever I hear Western people tell me of their “own” Yoga tradition going back thousands of years, but which went underground because of a a conspiracy to suppress it by the evil illumunati…
[QUOTE=Hubert;57343]So you say, in all these 9 thousand years, you did not change in any way ?[/QUOTE]
How did you surmise that I was saying that there was no change? Although the meta-structure remained the same of Indian society, there were vast changes and developments within it.
Right, I was not specific enough. Ok, than: did yoga change in these years, did people living in India change ? Could you agree with a development of human consciusness … not on individual level, but as a people ?
Rememeber, we did start form my comment on how yoga was a kind of mystery school. So, are today all indians, or representatives of the indian culture, initiated into the depths of esoteric development ? Was it the case in earlier times ? Yogic practices being part of the living tradition, of vedic culture, this does not mean that they were all succesful and meaningful, where actual initiation into the suprasensible happened. Thus, even in India, there was and still is an exoteric practice, to what Bhakti yoga you mentioned belongs, in my opinion, at least to the level as the practices of christian faith are often called bhakti typed ones, and there was and still is a much more restricted, less visible esoteric practice, and the latter could bear the name mystery school, although, you indeed are right that the time of mystery schools have passed. What were the seven rishis, for example ? They were a few, not many. We know that they were actually seven.
[QUOTE=Hubert;57344]The bad ones who poor salt in your sugarbox.
Indeed, there is no good or bad in that reality you speak of. But for timely beings as us, sometimes untimely things appear as bad. Anyway, [B]you are the one calling others idiots,[/B] and this qualifies you as mischievous. Not that I judge you, it’s a simple asessment. I am sure you also posess better qualities, what might reveal themselves if I will pay attention to this forum in the future.[/QUOTE]
Just one person.
Yoga was never a mystery school for only elite ones. It was common knowledge of Vedic society. From the time the Vedic people settled in the Indus valley in the early food produce phase known as the Mehgarh phase in 7000BCE the top class of society has been the risis. There were hundreds of risis that composed the Vedas. The Risis set up a society that was based on education and knowledge, and were highly reveered by Indians. Even today respect for sages is ingrained in our culture. The Risis taught and practiced the the first proto-yoga known as Vedic Yoga. It was not a systematic practice though, but rather consisted of scattered practices like fire sacrifices, breath control, physical austerities, mantras and meditation. It only became a systematic practice when Patanjali codified it and systematized during the darshana period, when all Vedic knowledge was codified into schools of philosophy. Since, Yoga has retained that classical form that Patanjali gave. There have been various movements like Bhakti Yoga, Kriya Yoga, Laya Yoga, Hatha Yoga but they all share the same classical form of Raja Yoga and somehow plug into it.
The original education system of India were the gurukuls - forst academies. The educational method practiced there was 1)Hearing the Vedas 2)Contemplating on what is heard and 3) Meditating on what is heard. Later on, massive universities were built like Taxshashilla which had about 10,000 students learning various sciences, arts and crafts. Again, the practices and method of education taught there were yoga and meditation.
Yoga is an integral part of Vedic civilisation. It permeates every part of it.
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;57345]
[B]There was no Yoga tradition in Europe prior to the 18th-19th century[/B]. [/QUOTE]
Where did I say that there was such a thing ?
[QUOTE=Hubert;57342]When I was speaking of inside and outside, I was not meaning this, this is your interpretation.
By going the opposite way, what northern western cultures followed (before this materialist time) was finding the spiritual realities behind world phenomena. Either way, one ultimatley arrives to the same “gods”. Anyway, today it is hard to grasp that differences between cultures, peoples, root deeper than the superficial aspects of their language, clothes or textualized believes. Especially for americans, because you do have everything there in one big bucket. Which is just as it supposed to be, yet, without discernment we will not comprehend our past.
PS: Define qualified teacher.[/QUOTE]
Hi hubert,
I see what you are referring to – the shamanic cultures of the americas perhaps?
Even in these there are these same two inner and outer (tonal or material/exoteric world and nagual or inner/subjective/esoteric world)
these cultures have great overlaps with the eastern traditions, especially the indic and taoist ones, from what i can undestand of them.
I did define a qualified teacher…one who has walked the walk, not just talked the talk. See my previous post…as the japanese say…one who has gone before me…sensei 
We call them guru in india…
These deities need not be understood in the sense of objective beings which have a consciousness of their own. In fact, that hypothesis is absolutely unecessary - and in most cases, entirely illogical. Depending on your culture, your tradition, the kind of society one has grown up in, one will have different ideas as to what these “deities” are. And that is why in different societies in the world for centuries, they have had different gods and godesses, all of which are the inventions of man, created in his own image. It has even happened that in certain religions - what was just a minor spirit at one point in time has become a God, and what was once a God has become a minor spirit - or even demonized. There are countless examples of this - both in Eastern and Western traditions. When the Christians came into contact with the pagan goddess Astarte, she was turned into the demon Astaroth, and Astaroth is frequently referred to in many grimoires which deal with demonology. The Buddhist deity Vajrapani, the protector of all the Buddhas and representative of a Buddha’s power of penetrating through delusion, was imported into Japan and became Shukongoshin. And of course, he underwent a transformation which is according to that culture, both in name, personality, and appearance.
So if you are interpreting these deities as literal - then you are just being foolish. If one really believes that Shiva has a third eye on the forehead with several heads, or that the Egyptian God Thoth really has the head of an Ibis bird, then you are just becoming entangled in delusion.
These “deities” can simply be understood as symbolic of different aspects of the energy of nature. And because the same forces of nature which function everywhere also function through one’s own being, it can also be said that these deities are also functioning through man’s own being. That is why in yoga, along with the chakras there are various corresponding deities to each of the energy centers. This was just a method to help preserve certain knowledge, and try to transmit in an accessible form an understanding of the different kinds of energies which are working through each of these chakras. So, these deities are far more of a tool for transformation rather than things which are to be taken too literally. If you want, you can even create your own deity - and there is in fact a whole science in yoga which involves the creation of thought-forms at the level of the mind, and projecting these energy forms outwards to manifest certain objectives. In Tibet, they call them tulpa’s. Any tulpa can be created with enough will and imagination in such a way that if it gathers enough intensity, they may even start functioning as independent entities of their own.
I don’t know about the deities of other cultures. But I do know the Hindu deities are just psychological phenomena that can be experienced in deep meditation. This point has been explained quite well by Aurobindo. Saraswati for example is what we know today as Kundalini awakening, when Saraswati flows the Rig Veda says that the entire consciousness is brightened up. Saraswati is also used in the context of creativity, receiving inspiration in the form of knowledge, poetry or music. Great musicians have said that music flows into them.
Like Saraswati, all Vedic deities have a wider psychological sense. It is best to understand them as principles. Indra for example, represents the intellect and that is why the senses are known as indriyas, because Indra presides over them.
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;57352]
Yoga is an integral part of Vedic civilisation. It permeates every part of it.[/QUOTE]
So you would deny that the ancient knowledge of the rishis, the wisdom of the Vedas did gradually decline to a state where today, it became exoteric, written, ritualistic practice, as a form of tradition, an exoteric religion ?
There is a great difference between the people who lived 9 thousand years ago, and those who live today. The former still had a form of dreamlike experience of the spiritual realities, a living memory of the heavens. Todays people anywhere in the world, have lost this. Because of this, the Vedas, what are the living truth, and the Word, are not the living truth any longer but they are texts,and incantations and rites. Because people do not expereince the reality of the heavens. From having an expereince of the heavens to belief in those heavens, even on the sacred soil of India, we have to witness a decline.