Yoga and Christianity

Yoga Discussion General Yoga
#241

" I am called Surya Deva, my avatar is an image of a sun. There are hundreds, if not thousands of images of the sun. The fact that there is a real sun cannot be denied"

That is nice, but one day when the sun decays and withers away, you will have no more of that to put on your avatar.

When it has been spoken of in the East of “Maya”, one should investigate into what they mean. They do not mean that existence is a dream. They have been saying that it is similar to a dream. Einstein had discovered, in scientific terms, what had been known by mystics for centuries - that time and space have no absolute existence in themselves, they are relative. And a rod which is 5 centimeters can become 15, or 50, or 500 relative to it’s rate of motion as observed by an observer. So it is not just the case that it is senses which are relative in their function, but it is also the case with existnece itself. And in such relativity - the more and more conclusions you create, is the more and more delusional you become. At the most - one’s knowledge can be useful to bring you closer and closer to an understanding of your own ignorance.

#242

[QUOTE=MindNinja;57361]You do not need to practice the spiritual or religious aspects of Yoga, you can do purely the physical aspects.
[/quote]

Then it is not yoga but physical contortions that you will be doing…

Yoga or Hindusim is NOT compatible with Christianity, not in the slightest! (not saying Yoga is Hindusim but if you are really practicing the spiritual or religious aspects then it is like a branch of Hinduism) despite what some writers have said or try to advocate such as Yogananda.

So there can never be a christian yoga then, right?

Of course such writers will spin some cosmic New Age philosophy - Jesus was really an advanced Yogi he was not God or part of a Trinity, in the missing years not accounted for in the New testament he travelled to India to learn Yoga, Hinduism & Christianity are one and the same just slightly different teachings due to location and people originally following them, etc, etc. Akin to saying all political parties - Liberal , Democrat, Conservative, Labour , KKK, BNP, etc are all one and the same as they all have the same purpose - eh no they aren’t! Bahai Faith attempts the same all major 9 world religions are all from God just taught differently depending on the time period and location, all have the same purpose.

If Jesus was what he claimed, and truly rose from the dead, he was far above any Yogi that has ever lived. Jesus told him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me (John 14:6) [I]note it does not say except through Yoga, Buddhism, Hindusim, New Age, Wicca, or anything else. [/I]

http://www.irr.org/yoga&christianity.html

http://www.christianitytoday.com/tcw/2005/002/14.40.html [B]The Truth About Yoga[/B]
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2005/juneweb-only/123-22.0.html [B]Take A Pass On Yoga[/B]

It is unequivocal Jesus claimed to be the son of God, and part of a Trinmity equal to God. In the Old Testament more than 500 prophecies refer directly to him, long before he was born. Not saying I agree with everything above links state but for sure Yoga with full spiritual aspects is not compatible with Christianity, only someone spouting some cosmic universal new age philiosophy could say to the contrary.

Can you elaborate on this please?

#243

[QUOTE=Dwai;57428]Wow!
What a leap of faith!!

Why does it matter to you whether hindus were “christian” or not? It’s not as if christianity is somehow better than hindus’ native spiritual systems, right? Or do you think that it is? If so, how and why?[/QUOTE]

You are right it does not matter, It was bad wording. For me christianity does not mean what it means for most. What is important that they did have a living realtionship with the suprasensible, unilke those who call themselves christians today. This is what I meant.

But I am nott folling myself. From your post I see the need to interpret my words as you are able. Clearly, you are unable to raise your conception above words and what they usually mean. For you christianity means a sect. For me it means an attitude, regardless of actual faith and religion. And I call myself a christian in this sense. For me, Ramana Maharsi is also a great christian, so is Ghandi.

#244

“Similarly, as everything is divine consciousness”

One may just be wearing the worn out uniform of a certain stream of Indian philosophy. Otherwise, I would question this. If you understand that the original nature of things is not something that belongs to the realm of language, that it is inexpressible by all means, then you would not be stating such a thing.

Nope, we know everything is consciousness. The emerging meta-paradigm in science is reality is a consciousness field. We have proof for it of course appearing in every field from neuroscience to quantum physics. There is no such thing as we call matter, if there is no observer to see it. This has been proven in experimental conditions and the experiment has been repeated with even more stronger controls each time, and the result is the same. If there is no observer - there is no reality. Period. Observer is required for anything to happen in the universe.

When it has been spoken of in the East of “Maya”, one should investigate into what they mean. They do not mean that existence is a dream. They have been saying that it is similar to a dream. Einstein had discovered, in scientific terms, what had been known by mystics for centuries - that time and space have no absolute existence in themselves, they are relative. And a rod which is 5 centimeters can become 15, or 50, or 500 relative to it’s rate of motion as observed by an observer. So it is not just the case that it is senses which are relative in their function, but it is also the case with existnece itself. And in such relativity - the more and more conclusions you create, is the more and more delusional you become. At the most - one’s knowledge can be useful to bring you closer and closer to an understanding of your own ignorance.

You have consistently ignored quantum mechanics in all discussions you’ve had on me with physics. You stick to Einstein theory of relativity because it supports your ideas on everything being relative. You reduce everything to space because it supports your ideas of all is void. Unfortunately, there is a spanner in your works. Quantum physics has been the dominant theory of physics for the last 80 years. It is most the succesful theory of all time and passed rigorous testing. According to quantum physics there is a reality more fundamental than space which we call the quantum field or the zero point energy field, which is the source of all matter.

I know what Maya is thank you very much, but it appears you don’t. First of all don’t call it an Eastern concept. It is a Hindu/vedic concept. First time it ever makes it apperance is in the Upanishads - therefore it is Hindu. Secondly, don’t spread lies about what Maya means. It does indeed mean unreal/illusory. Here is a famous mahavakya(famous saying) from the Upanishads "Brahman Satya, Jagat Mithya “Brahman(pure consciousness) is the only truth, the world is unreal”

I told you before to not argue with me on Hindu things. I will own you every step along the way. Stick to Buddhism where your knowledge is stronger.

#245

But I am nott folling myself. From your post I see the need to interpret my words as you are able. Clearly, you are unable to raise your conception above words and what they usually mean. For you christianity means a sect. For me it means an attitude, regardless of actual faith and religion. And I call myself a christian in this sense. For me, Ramana Maharsi is also a great christian, so is Ghandi.

For the rest of the world Christianity means a religion. For you it is an attitude and therefore one who has this attitude which you have set the parameters of, Ramana Maharishi and Gandhi are Christian.

I see. Well, lets see what happens if we start making up our meanings for words. I am going to take idiot and moron to mean good person. Hubert you are an idiot and moron. Jesus was an idiot and moron. And Mother Theressa was an idiot and moron.

Beyond being mildly amusing, what good has this achieived? Somebody reading this without the context would have problems with me :wink:

#246

Amir and Surya, the ordinary mind is one thing and one reborn in spirit another.

Amir you are entitled to your opinion. I think, in your case it is still a beleif, as it is in Surya’s case. None of you have yet aquired those higher senses what would make you experience what I am speaking. That happens after one is enlighetend. You are both knowledgable, earnest and good practitinas, surely better than me, yet, this does not change facts. Thus, it’s your thinking against mine, your system of making the world comprehesible against mine, and thus, this belongs to the field of philosophy.

You, of course are entitled to have an opinion of your own. But when you present your opinion as general truth, you take the responsability of backing it up.
My belief is that many disciples following eastern philosopy lack the necessary knowledge and world view to translate any of their supraensible expereinces to the language of their own brain. Thus, they cannot make any sense of it in the beginning and disregard these as hallucinations or meaningless visions. There is nothing meaningless in the world, be it outer or inner. When one experiences meaningles things, this just shows that one is not yet wise enough to comprehend what really happens. Also there are potholes of spiritual evolution for example the pleasent state of abiding in one’s inner self, taking a thoughtless peaceful bliss state as the utlimate expereince. These are those who condemn themselves to eternal sleeping. This state only exists until all the elements of the human constitution, and all the tehniques used to maintain it are there. When these disappear, one will get back to the ordinary misery of life. Like in case of ilness, sleep, and death. A simple test will show whose expereinces are real. If one is able to maintain consciusness while sleeping, one developed those sense what make this state conscious. Because consiousness alway needs the support of an experience, be it that of the Self. By what sense do we expereince our own beingness ?

#247

Surya,

“Quantum physics has been the dominant theory of physics for the last 80 years.”

That is fine. But you should be careful to read too much into it. There are people who have been using the findings of quantum physics to support just about any belief. If you want, because there may be parrallel dimensions working within the same space, then perhaps there is some God in your own image somewhere in the universe. Perhaps there are a million if’s which you can entertain yourself with. But even in quantum physics - the findings of the scientists have not brought them any closer to clarity of vision, on the contrary it has only cast a spell of ignorance upon them, they are now more ignorant than ever. And now what you are calling science is less of science and drifting more into philosophy. Because to gather information is one thing, and how you interpret it is another. That is why in quantum physics there are countless theories - M theory, string theory, multiverse theory, parallal universe theories, and so on.

Keep a watching eye. Not there - but up, up close.

“There is no such thing as we call matter, if there is no observer to see it.”

This reminds me of that question which has been asked time and time again, if a tree falls into the forest and nobody is there to hear it, does it exist ?

If you say that it does not, you fall into error. If you say that it does, you fall into error.
As regards the first - whether you are here to hear it or not, it is there, just as when you take pictures of mountains and rivers through a camera, the mountains and rivers are there. But to say that the mountains and rivers are created by the camera - is just to be fanatic.

“If there is no observer - there is no reality.”

This is the case only as far as your experience as concerned, in the same way that there are no pictures if the camera does not exist.

“You stick to Einstein theory of relativity because it supports your ideas on everything being relative.”

Everything within time and space is relative. When I have said this, it is not to say that everything is relative, but to indicate that there is something else beyond time, space, and all it’s relativity.

“You reduce everything to space because it supports your ideas of all is void”

Even the very idea of a void is another limiting quality. That is another idea that is to be emptied out. When I say that the Truth is inexpressible, I mean it.

“According to quantum physics there is a reality more fundamental than space which we call the quantum field or the zero point energy field, which is the source of all matter”

Yes, that is what they call it in scientific terms. Now it is up to you to look into it and see whatever you want to see. A Christian will use it as an excuse to support the existence of God. A Jew will do the same. The Hindu will use it as an excuse to support the existence of Brahman, whatever he may mean by this. And those who have been attached to the idea that everything is pure consciousness will use it as an excuse to confirm their own beliefs.

Truth is not a conclusion that you come to. Contemplate about this.

“First of all don’t call it an Eastern concept. It is a Hindu/vedic concept.”

It is not anymore Hindu or Vedic than the big bang was Christian because the scientist who spoke of it was a Christian.

“First time it ever makes it apperance is in the Upanishads - therefore it is Hindu”

The first time general relativity was spoken of was in Einsteins paper of relativity. Therefore, it is Jewish.

"Here is a famous mahavakya(famous saying) from the Upanishads "Brahman Satya, Jagat Mithya “Brahman(pure consciousness) is the only truth, the world is unreal”

If you are clinging to scriptures, then you should be quoting other scriptures as well which have stated otherwise. The streams of “Indian” philosophy have not all come to the same conclusion. Just a little bit of research will be able to reveal this.

“Stick to Buddhism where your knowledge is stronger.”

Buddhism is just as much a distortion of reality as Hinduism, I do not make much discrimination between the two.

#248

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;57443]For the rest of the world Christianity means a religion. For you it is an attitude and therefore one who has this attitude which you have set the parameters of, Ramana Maharishi and Gandhi are Christian.

I see. Well, lets see what happens if we start making up our meanings for words. I am going to take idiot and moron to mean good person. Hubert you are an idiot and moron. Jesus was an idiot and moron. And Mother Theressa was an idiot and moron.

Beyond being mildly amusing, what good has this achieived? Somebody reading this without the context would have problems with me ;)[/QUOTE]

Yes, as far we take words for words these games are possible. In these terms, I am humbled and pleased by your kind words. I do not know much about Mother Theresa, anyway, I think most people are in the usual term of the sense, morons and idiots, and the more they think they know something, the more it is the case. There are a few, like Socrates, who admitted this, and indeed he was the wisest of his time.

What use it is to be indoctrinated ? Because believeng in all the names and labels what we use, is indoctrination. But we can read between the lines, and not just see things as they are used normally, but realise how this usage came to happen. And we can, and should question all we know, in light of any new information or expereince we recieve. Anyway, I was just trying to make the case that there is no unsurmountable obstacle between christianity and eastern traditions, once we know them both in detail. They are not the same, but they are not definitely in contradiction. I’s just as saying, omg, my heart is not my liver ! What am I gonna do now ? My heart contradicts my liver ! He does not want to be a liver ! I don’t need a heart than. Earth, cultures and humanity is a whole. Everything has it’s purpose. There are no meaningless and by chance happenings. Even things percieved as bad and unpleasant pretty much have their own reasons by what they came about. Equanimity teaches to observe these and learn, not to judge.

#249

You, of course are entitled to have an opinion of your own.

I am sorry but I don’t understand what qualified as opinion in my post to you. Rather I asked you questions: Where is the evidence? I can’t test your spiritual experiences. I can test whether you are interpreting the bible correctly or not, because I can speak English :smiley:

If it says, “Love thy neighbour” and you interpret it as “Have an orgy” I will indeed tell you you are reading it wrongly. Similarly if you take “I am the way, life and the truth, there is no way to heaven but me” as “I am the Christ consciousness, you must all meditate and attain to my level” then I am going to tell you are reading it wrongly.

The meaning of language is not something you can do whatever you want with and make it mean anything you want. Wittgenstein famously said, “The meaning of a word is in its usage” Words would be useless if they did not have agreed meanings.

#250

Hubert,

“Amir you are entitled to your opinion”

I do not have any opinions at all. What I have said are facts.

“None of you have yet aquired those higher senses what would make you experience what I am speaking”

The snake pretending to be a dragon has finally revealed itself. It was bound to surface it’s head sooner or later. For one such as yourself, even if you were to cut your hand of as a gesture of sincerity for coming to your awakening, you would not be accepted as a disciple.

“That happanes after one is enlighetend.”

As you are not, you should just be quiet.

“You are both knowledgable”

I am not knowledgeable, although I am aware of knowledge.

“earnest”

Not earnest either. A sword which penetrates has nothing to do with earnesty.

“good practitioners”

Not good, and not a practitioner either -you cannot practice what you are.

"My belief is that many disciples following eastern philosopy "

East or West, mind is mind and all philosophies are projections of the mind. Truth is not a philosophy, nor can it be organized.

“There is nothing meaningless in the world”

Neither meaning nor meaningless, existence is beyond all meaning. If one extreme disappears, the other extreme also disappears. Existence is so vast - that if you were to give it any meaning, you would be imposing a limitation upon it. The same is the case with the very idea of meaninglessness, that too would be to impose a limitation upon it. \

When in a direct encounter with the inexpressible, there is not even a single hook for your hands to grasp onto.

“By what sense do we expereince our own beingness ?”

Seal this drooling mouth and find out.

#251

Huby - I’ve seen some shit that would slide the cheese off your cracker.

I ain’t even kidding.

I wondering now - do you agree with my assertion that Amir is a complete and utter douche bag?

and a ginormous arrogant pretentious idiot?

Plus - heres the kicker. He’s 25!

or am I alone on this?

Well other than Surya and Asuri.

#252

There are people who have been using the findings of quantum physics to support just about any belief. If you want, because there may be parrallel dimensions working within the same space, then perhaps there is some God in your own image somewhere in the universe. Perhaps there are a million if’s which you can entertain yourself with. But even in quantum physics - the findings of the scientists have not brought them any closer to clarity of vision, on the contrary it has only cast a spell of ignorance upon them, they are now more ignorant than ever. And now what you are calling science is less of science and drifting more into philosophy. Because to gather information is one thing, and how you interpret it is another. That is why in quantum physics there are countless theories - M theory, string theory, multiverse theory, parallal universe theories, and so on.

Nope, dear. We are not talking theory here, we are talking hard empirical evidence in the famous double split experiment. We send a particle through the double slit and we notice it turn into a wave at the other end. Then when the wave is observed at the double slit, it becomes a particle and a particle is detected at the other end. The obvious conclusion to draw here is the observation causes the collapse of the wave into a particle.

The same experiment has been repeated hundreds of times and the result is the same. Then later tests were devised by Bell known as the test of the Bell inequalities to test the assumptions of reality and separability. The test everytime brings up one result: there is definitely no separability, and most likely no reality. More stricter tests conducted recently testing only for reality have ratified the same.

This reminds me of that question which has been asked time and time again, if a tree falls into the forest and nobody is there to hear it, does it exist ?

This is no longer a question. It has been answered. No observer = no reality.

As regards the first - whether you are here to hear it or not, it is there, just as when you take pictures of mountains and rivers through a camera, the mountains and rivers are there. But to say that the mountains and rivers are created by the camera - is just to be fanatic.

Bad analogies. You are operating in a world in so far as you aware of it. In philosophy we call the assumption you are making of a real and external world, “the natural assumption” You are assuming there is world out there, completely independent of you, for you to act in. What quantum physics has shown is that this world is only existent in so far as you are aware of it. The fact that you are conscious allows this world to be. So it a structure within consciousness itself that collapses the world into existence for you. Then you are just an actor in it.

Everything within time and space is relative. When I have said this, it is not to say that everything is relative, but to indicate that there is something else beyond time, space, and all it’s relativity.

Yeah, but you assume that something else beyond time and space is the final state. Nope, not according to Yoga. There are many levels still beyond, but now you are in the mental dimension of matter: astral, mental, intellectual, causal. Hence why samsara is divided into several levels. Just because we have realised there is a level beyond our own, does not mean it is the final state.

“According to quantum physics there is a reality more fundamental than space which we call the quantum field or the zero point energy field, which is the source of all matter”

Yes, that is what they call it in scientific terms. Now it is up to you to look into it and see whatever you want to see. A Christian will use it as an excuse to support the existence of God. A Jew will do the same. The Hindu will use it as an excuse to support the existence of Brahman, whatever he may mean by this. And those who have been attached to the idea that everything is pure consciousness will use it as an excuse to confirm their own beliefs.

I am a Hindu, and I am telling you it is not Brahman. What QM has discovered is the next level up known as akasha. Brahman cannot be objectified, nothing which you can know is Brahman. As Brahman is behind knowing.

It is not anymore Hindu or Vedic than the big bang was Christian because the scientist who spoke of it was a Christian.

The first time general relativity was spoken of was in Einsteins paper of relativity. Therefore, it is Jewish.

Bad analogies. The Hindu concept of Maya is a CONCEPT that was first mentioned in a Hindu scripture called the Upanishads. The theory of relativity is a scientific theory based on empirical science. It is not mentioned in a Jewish scripture :wink:

If you are clinging to scriptures, then you should be quoting other scriptures as well which have stated otherwise. The streams of “Indian” philosophy have not all come to the same conclusion. Just a little bit of research will be able to reveal this.

You missed my point. I pointed out the scriptural statement to support that Maya does indeed mean unreal or illusion. Do the math: The concept of maya first appears in the Upanishads and in Sanskrit it means illusion or unreal. The Upanishads major teaching is “Only Brahman is real, the world is unreal” So it is clear they are saying the world is an illusion and maya is another word to state the same thing.

Buddhism is just as much a distortion of reality as Hinduism, I do not make much discrimination between the two.

Too bad because comparitive religion scholars do, because they are different religions :wink: In any case stop making statements about my religion, when it is clear you have next to no knowledge on them.

#253

My mother, who is a VERY devout Catholic, has practiced yoga with me and found it to be quite beneficial. It depends on what language accompanies the movement. If there is an emphasis on divinity, chanting, sanskrit and the hindu deities then that might be problematic for those that are very devout. Yoga is a path for self-realization with no emphasis on worshiping anything externally.

#254

You are making it sound like worshipping something externally is the essential and defining characteristic of Hinduism. Nope, dear, in Hinduism, what is essential is achieiving self-realization, and how you do that is less important. This is why there is a plurality of yogas ranging from object worship, to meditation, to severe austeries, to energy work, fire sacrifices, moral living, manta chanting, music etc etc

Hence why self-realization being a pure Hindu doctrine, in and of itself is antithical to Christianity, especially a very devout catholic. There is no such doctrine in Christianity. Nowhere in the bible does it say do yoga to have a direct experience of soul/self/god/ultimate reality - absolutely nowhere. Instead it says follow the ten commandments and you will get to live with god in heaven in the hereafter :smiley: The two teachings are poles apart.

Abrahamic religions teach faith, belief, dogma and living as per a universal moral code.
Dharmic religions teach spirituality, spiritual development. The contemplation of ultimate reality.

How different can we get? The next thing I will be hearing of is chalk sandwitches and writing on the blackboard with cheese :smiley:

#255

This.

#256

Hi Surya Deva (or better, anybody but :D),

the abrahamic religions equal Bhakti Yoga. Scientific minds are not taken account of by the abrahamic religions, unfortunately, probably because the Bhakti type of yoking the individual with the universal self was statistically the most effective. Stuff about heaven etc. is just “candy”. Remember candy? We talked about candy once. Your Yoga-candy (= reason to engange in something) are the Siddhis. You want Siddhis. Other people want to go to heaven. That’s why they and you do Yoga/are religious. Btw., “religion”:

Religion (from O.Fr. religion “religious community,” from L. religionem (nom. religio) “respect for what is sacred, reverence for the gods,”[3] “obligation, the bond between man and the gods”[4]) is derived from the Latin religio, the ultimate origins of which are obscure. One possibility is derivation from a reduplicated *le-ligare, an interpretation traced to Cicero connecting lego “read”, i.e. re (again) + lego in the sense of “choose”, “go over again” or “consider carefully”. Modern scholars such as Tom Harpur and Joseph Campbell favor the derivation from ligare “bind, connect”, probably from a prefixed re-ligare, i.e. re (again) + ligare or “to reconnect,” which was made prominent by St. Augustine, following the interpretation of Lactantius.[5][6] The medieval usage alternates with order in designating bonded communities like those of monastic orders: “we hear of the ‘religion’ of the Golden Fleece, of a knight ‘of the religion of Avys’”.[7]
Compare with “Yoga”:

The Sanskrit word yoga has many meanings,[11] and is derived from the Sanskrit root “yuj,” meaning “to control,” “to yoke” or “to unite.”[12] Translations include “joining,” “uniting,” “union,” “conjunction,” and “means.”[13][14][15] The word yoga may also derive from the root “yujir samadhau,” which means “contemplation” or “absorption.”[16].
Problem with abrahamic religions is: You can’t say it’s a method. Like there are others. Well, maybe you could, but if you said to one who believes in god that it’s just a method and that god isn’t actually there, and they’re just doing some sort of autosuggestion, should be quite counterproductive. Particularly when you want to get people to start getting into this method. If you told them, it’s just a psychological method, even if they had the educational background to understand that, it’d keep them from getting into the faith necessary.

So you have to, as the religious leader, establish the idea that there really is a god. And that his ways are totally mysterious and beyond any person’s comprehension. Gotta have a Book of Job. Since people are undiciplined and weak, you have to have some instruments to keep their attention, so you invent punishments, make them afraid of leaving the path. Etc. etc. Spiritual teachers die, normal people take over, water the teaching down, for their own profit, put on a sad face so they can buy 2nd hand props extra cheap, while really, they charge 80 bucks per hour. :stuck_out_tongue: Political leaders will abuse the teachings and create loopholes in clearest commandments, to justify wars, greed, etc. etc. Once the teaching is so watered down, rarely anybody actually does understand it anymore, and literally noone goes the whole path and comes to unite with god, so no new teachers are around to teach the actual thing.

So bottom-line: Abrahamic religions want the same thing like the dharmic ones, they just depict it different and use only a single method, called Bhakti Yoga in India.

And, my dearest Surya Deva, there there - I know your reply already, all religions suck but yours, all are evil except yours, all stupid, primitive, inferior, etc. etc., not to forget Mr-dancing-is-banned-in-India of course. Dharmic and Abrahamic religions are not compatible, oppose each others, one has to be uprooted, gots to be the Abrahamic ones, Dharmic will win, the universe will be Hindu at the end of next week or so, etc. etc.

yawn Me just thinked bullcraps gotz to be rectified for not 2 many stoopid younglings like Neitzsche are lured onto the dark side all to conveniently.

#257

[QUOTE=synergyjasmine;57623]My mother, who is a VERY devout Catholic, has practiced yoga with me and found it to be quite beneficial. It depends on what language accompanies the movement. If there is an emphasis on divinity, chanting, sanskrit and the hindu deities then that might be problematic for those that are very devout. Yoga is a path for self-realization with no emphasis on worshiping anything externally.[/QUOTE]

Lost in names, labels, and what supposed to be in their boxes, are we ?
This answer goes for anyone here.

This thread is just venting. Why ? Because there is no understanding possible when the participants talk different languages. And even if one assumes one talks english, one is not free of not being understood.

To jasmine, and to surya … most religions became meaningless today. Why ? Because of the need of our minds to comprehend, instead of just believeing.
Also, today most people live in spiritual darkness where the very existence of spirit or suprasensible realities is often seen as superstition.

But we forget the responsability coming with our expressed right to judge before believing. This responsabilty is to do just that: Judge. Discern. Think. Does it make sense ? What is my experience ?

Don’t we say about someone who is not acting reasonably, that he/she has lost his/her judgement ?

Now, there is a rule in case of human beings … we never just start with a clean slate. By the time we develop our consciusness as adult human beings, our minds are compromised by our education. Basicly, only a small segment of humans could have theoretically the right to start an unbiased intellectual pursuit of reality. All others just live by the power of the circumstances of their uprising. Even among philosophers, can we say that they do not build at all on what former philosophers have achieved ?

Question: is the human being ready for the task of actually re-thinking everything what may be raised as concern by the human condition ? Where do we stop measuring the reality of our mind by our conditionings ? What do we accept as fact without actually knowing if it’s true or not ?

Can human mind transcend itself at all ? Are we our minds, or more ? What is the mind itself ? Who says in me, I ? Who am I ?

Any spiritual pursuit is one towards certainty. We do not question the rock, as we stumble on it, yet quantum phsyics says there is nor rock. We do not see X-rays but our sciencetifically enhanced senses (through tools) tell us there are such.

Earlier people did believe in the continuity of the earths surface beyond the horizon. Hence, they though, the Earth is flat, as the earth they knew was flat, as far they could perceive it.

Today, people, whose sight in time is barely able to look back to their birth, extend the continuity of their knowledge about time where they did not exist yet. Hence, we because we have parents, and they seem beings as us, we believe that time did existe before we could expereince it. Did you ever question the existence of time, or space as it is related ? No. But as a knowledge seeking intelligence, consciousness, you should.

When I chant Om Namah Sivaya as a westerner … do I have a clue of what am I doing ? Who is is this Siva anyway ? And even as a hindu, do I have something to justify this belief other than tradition ? And when I do pray to Jesus, to whom do I pray ? Should not we seek honest answers we are able to comprehend ? And if we do not … by what right do we judge others not doing it either ?

Indeed was Socrates wise. At least he knew he doesn’t have a clue about most things, the important ones.
But those, who think they already know something are bound that very knowledge, unless they really know. And to really know, one must not make compromises. Those who really know have the right to judge others. Those who don’t, and I yet have to meet a person who is not like this, do not have any right to judge, whatsoever.

Of course we can speculate. We can interpret. We can test our believes. Do that. Judge, because you need to, know that probably you are wrong. Later, you will deem your earlier judgments as silly, as you grow wiser. Thus, even though you need to judge, you should never stop at your judgements. The laziness of our mind and soul is what stops us from perfroming this uncompromising search for knowledge. Children know this but we educate them. Most of todays education is not education, but indoctrination. We teach our children not to think, but what to think, what is entirely wrong. Change that. Don’t be lazy. Question. Confront those brain dead people who just repeat what they have been doped with. Show them our taxes were spent on them in vain. Be free.

This is yoga at it’s best. Wake from your purple yoga dream of bliss. Existence takes courage. Only brave souls are able to state: I am, without adding anything after the “am”.

Yes, I am.
You see ? It’s not that hard.

#258

the abrahamic religions equal Bhakti Yoga. Scientific minds are not taken account of by the abrahamic religions, unfortunately, probably because the Bhakti type of yoking the individual with the universal self was statistically the most effective.

Nope, beyond the superficial similarity that Bhakti yogis worship a personal god and want to be one with god in the highest heaven, there is nothing common between Bhakti Yoga and Abrahamic religions. In fact the differences are great. Bhakti Yoga is predominately idol worship, it involves rituals like puja to idols, pilgramages to temples to worship idols. Idol worship is an abomination in Abrahamic religion. One of the favourite curse words both the Muslims and Christians had for Hindus was “idolators”.

Secondly, most Bhakti yogis are viseasadvaitns and advaitins(dvaita is not very popular), they consider themselves to be either part of god or identical to god. In Abrahamic religions this concept of god is considered a heresy. God and man are separate. He is the almighty and perfect. We are not one with him or identical with him.

Thirdly, Bhakti yoga is the path that says we can have a direct experience of god or a vision of god(darshana ) while alive by practicing yoga. In Abrahamic religion it is impossible to have a direct vision of god, it is only possible to be with him in the here after, that too after you passed judgement. People who claimed to be in contact with god were burned at the stake - like Joan of Ark.

We talked about candy once. Your Yoga-candy (= reason to engange in something) are the Siddhis. You want Siddhis.

Nope, I want total enlightenment, which is a absolutely pure mind that comes into communion with the cosmic intelligence. Siddhis are a natural attainment that happens due to this. It would be cool to be able to levitate, fly and teleport itself, but after a while I would get bored of them - and hence back at square one again.

Problem with abrahamic religions is: You can’t say it’s a method. Like there are others. Well, maybe you could, but if you said to one who believes in god that it’s just a method and that god isn’t actually there, and they’re just doing some sort of autosuggestion, should be quite counterproductive. Particularly when you want to get people to start getting into this method. If you told them, it’s just a psychological method, even if they had the educational background to understand that, it’d keep them from getting into the faith necessary.

There is no scientific method to enlightenment in Abrahamic religions, because there is no concept of enlightenment in the first place. What there is, is attending mass, prayer rituals and following moral commandments in order to pass judgement and enter heaven.

They are poles apart.

So you have to, as the religious leader, establish the idea that there really is a god. And that his ways are totally mysterious and beyond any person’s comprehension. Gotta have a Book of Job. Since people are undiciplined and weak, you have to have some instruments to keep their attention, so you invent punishments, make them afraid of leaving the path. Etc. etc. Spiritual teachers die, normal people take over, water the teaching down, for their own profit, put on a sad face so they can buy 2nd hand props extra cheap, while really, they charge 80 bucks per hour. Political leaders will abuse the teachings and create loopholes in clearest commandments, to justify wars, greed, etc. etc. Once the teaching is so watered down, rarely anybody actually does understand it anymore, and literally noone goes the whole path and comes to unite with god, so no new teachers are around to teach the actual thing.

So bottom-line: Abrahamic religions want the same thing like the dharmic ones, they just depict it different and use only a single method, called Bhakti Yoga in India.

Dharmic religion wants a pure mind so they can realise their true nature and true capacity. Abrahamic religion want to be with god in heaven(in addition to the great pleasures of heaven promised in Abrahamic scriptures)

The wants are worlds apart.

I don’t see why we can’t leave the truth as it is. Abrahamic religion and Dharmic religion are mutually opposed on pretty much everything. It’s just how it is.

We believe in the cycle of rebirth, you guys believe we only live once and face judgement.

We believe the goal of life is to end our suffering in the here and now by returning to pure mind, self or realization. You guys believe you must show yourself to be worthy of heaven in the eyes of god to get heaven in the hereafter.

We believe that the sensory reality is illusory or less real and we must we must know actual ultimate reality underlying it through philosophical contemplation and investigation or meditation. You believe the world was created for you by god as a paradise, and you must live your life in accordance with his will as dictated in the ten commandments, to please god and enter heaven.

We believe that life is about education where we learn and develop through many lifetimes, and there are more developed souls than others, that we accept as teachers. You believe that life is a test and god sends down messengers from heaven to spread his word so you can pass the test of judgement and enter into heaven and enjoy its pleasures.

We believe the senses imprison the mind/soul and liberation is a reality beyond any sensory pleasure, but simply eternal bliss beyond duality. You believe that the senses and the mind are a good thing and you seek the highest pleasure of heaven which is a place of duality and has a hierarchy of angels.

How different can you get? We belong to different worlds. If you are resonate with our world more than your own, then we will warmly invite you into our world, provided you leave your own world behind. Light cannot coexist with darkness.

#259

Hubert,

“To jasmine, and to surya … most religions became meaningless today. Why ? Because of the need of our minds to comprehend, instead of just believeing”

What is needed is neither to comprehend, nor to believe, but to see directly. Truth is not something that is to be thought about or believed, but something that becomes crystal clear in your understanding once you come to know of a dimension which is not of the mind. And one thing that is essential in understanding why Truth cannot be contained through any of one’s belief systems, religions, or philosophies - is to understand the very nature of the workings of the mind. The mind, left onto itself, cannot see anything else beyond it’s own subjectivity. It can only offer you an interpretation of things through the senses, but as to seeing things as they are, it is absolutely blind. It should not be assumed that what you are experiencing at present is in tune with reality - most of one’s experience of the mind is largely imagination. Neither is it outside forces which are determining one’s experience - the world is just offering information to the senses, now what your mind creates out of it is entirely one’s own doing.

That is the whole problem - the mind can only project itself onto the universe, but it does not allow reality to come to you. Out of this - a thousand and one different religions, belief systems, and philosophies have been created - all which are as blind as each other although each believes that they have already found the Truth. Truth is something to be directly experienced, and the only entry to it’s discovery is to come to know yourself, through and through - from the body, to the mind, to the very source of the mind. Once a human being awakens to his original face - one will immediately realize that the same nature pervades all things. So believing will not help, thinking will not help - because unless one comes to know of a dimension which is not of the mind, your trying to grasp the Truth through the mind is just like trying to swallow the whole ocean in a single gulp. Inexpressible beyond the inexpressible, for one who has awakened - without thinking, without discrimination - let him have a silent understanding and nothing more.

“Question: is the human being ready for the task of actually re-thinking everything what may be raised as concern by the human condition ?”

Even if he was ready for it, he would not be capable of it. To understand one’s being through and through, what is needed is not to think about it, but a method for the expansion of consciousness, and the transformation that arises out of coming to more awareness. Man’s system is just like a machine, a program. And to understand it’s programming, what is needed is not to change it in any way, but to allow it to run it’s course, to remain a witness from moment to moment. To come to an understanding of the mind, what is needed is an eye which is capable of watching the mind from moment to moment without becoming identified with whatever arises in one’s experience. The moment the mind becomes identified, one’s vision has become distorted, one loses all clarity. And that is the whole spirit of meditation - to remain a witnessing consciousness. It is out of observing things directly in the moment, that there arises an understanding of your own inner workings. Out of this understanding, there comes a certain freedom. That is the only way to come to a tranformation from unawareness to awareness, from ignorance to wisdom, from sleep to awakening.

“Can human mind transcend itself at all ?”

No. It is impossible for anything to transcend anything - transcendence is an illusion. There is no dividing line in the sand between this shore and the other shore, nature cannot be transcended. The source of the mind is not seperate from mind, it is in fact the true nature of mind.

“Who says in me, I ?”

The ego.

“Who am I ?”

If you find out - both the question and the questioner simply dissolve.

“When I chant Om Namah Sivaya as a westerner … do I have a clue of what am I doing ?”

Unless one is aware as to how to use these mantras as a method for the expansion of consciousness, one can continue repeating them and repeating them, it is useless. Symbols, like words, have no meaning in themselves. One enormous part of the effectiveness of any mantra or symbol, is the link that is created in the mind between that symbol and an idea. The moment one has formed a strong association between the two, now what was just meaningless has become impregnated with a certain force. Now, when you are using the symbol as an object of concentration, it is not just a symbol, it is a means to awaken certain parts of your own consciousness depending on it’s meaning. So some mantras will sharpen your intellect, your intuition, your emotional sensitivity, your instinct, depending on the association the mantra will have different effects. All that is needed is for one’s attention to be flowing with one-pointedness into the mantra, without interruption, without any gaps. Eventually, even the mantra disappears from one’s perception, and the mind gradually starts turning inwards onto itself towards it’s very source.

“And when I do pray to Jesus, to whom do I pray ?”

A figment of one’s imagination. But, even this can be useful.

“Should not we seek honest answers we are able to comprehend ?”

The more knowledge one gathers is not the clearer one’s understanding becomes, it just brings you closer and closer to a recognition of your own ignorance, that you know nothing. Truth is not something that can be included as part of one’s knowledge, as all knowledge is limited. Truth is not a conclusion. You can become the living Truth, you can become absorbed in it’s fragrance, but you cannot grasp it into your fist.

#260

“Amir and Surya, the ordinary mind is one thing and one reborn in spirit another”

There is no such thing as a division between “ordinary mind” and “Spirit”. What you are calling “Spirit” is just a word to refer to the original nature of existence. And as there is nothing in existence which does not arise out of one and the same original nature. Even trees, rocks, birds, mountains, rivers, all are none other than the same phenomenon. Yes, they appear different to the senses, but those are just appearances. Just as a cloud may become water, and the same water may evaporate into gas - they appear different to the intellect but it is none other than the same phenomenon in transition from one state to another.

If you understand this - that everything is one energy, then you will not be making this discrimination between matter and mind, mind and spirit, this or that. In all directions, the serpent swallows it’s own tail. The universe is whole and complete - from it’s source to it’s thousand and one expressions, all divisions are none other than shadows of your own mind.