Yoga and science

Yoga Discussion General Yoga
#41

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;38097]You believe in materialism, with the same vigour that a Christian believes in Christianity or a Muslim believes in Islam. I think you should stop pretending you are a man of science. You are like most humans, you believe in some things and don’t believe in others.

[/QUOTE]

Firstly, you seem to conveniently fail mention Hinduism in your list of belief systems. If you think that Hinduism isn’t a belief system, you’ve completely deluded yourself. Secondly, as long as you continue to hold the belief that science has revealed the laws of karma and rebirth, I’m afraid I must take everything you claim to be scientific, as laughable conjecture.

#42

I think for now we will leave aside Hinduism and karma and reincarnation. We will concentrate on the original topic though: QM and reality and locality.

If you cannot show you can honestly consider evidence in this area, then obviously you cannot honestly consider evidence on karma or reincarnation if it is presented.

#43

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;38102]I think for now we will leave aside Hinduism and karma and reincarnation. We will concentrate on the original topic though: QM and reality and locality.

If you cannot show you can honestly consider evidence in this area, then obviously you cannot honestly consider evidence on karma or reincarnation if it is presented.[/QUOTE]

You haven’t really given any evidence to prove any real points. just because there happens to be other phenomena in our universe that are not considered strictly matter, doesn?t mean that there is anything outside the basic laws of physics that control our universe, or that materialism is now redundant. Quantum mechanics has never implied anything in regards to consciousness outside of the physical universe. These are conclusions you have come to, separate from excepted science. Things like karma, reincarnation, religion (Christianity, Hinduism, Islam), are ALL conjecture. They are all asserted conclusions reached by non-scientific means. I am aware I will never convince you otherwise through rational means, as you have reached these conclusions through irrational means.

#44

This is another very interesting thread. Shame that I cannot come here more often.
Based on what I read, I think, YogiAdam, Surya Deva has a point. Quantum Physics is not being manipulated as you think. In fact it is a harsh word to say ‘manipulate.’ A lot of physicists around the world includng world renowened Fred Alan Wolf, Amit Goswami, and Michio Kaku now concure with the fact that reality is multidimensional, and Newtonian physics is only a part of the whole realm of physics.

Also it is strange that you dismiss the evidence Surya presented. If you look for scientific evidence but have no time to read any science journals, and in fact dismiss them simplistically, then your experience with science becomes incomplete, and you might find yourself entrapped within dogmas.

As for Surya Deva, I agree with FlexPenguin that your posts are kinda long. But I appreciate that you are trying to prove your point.

#45

Yogiadam, do you believe that positive thinking produces positive results?

#46

You haven’t really given any evidence to prove any real points. just because there happens to be other phenomena in our universe that are not considered strictly matter, doesn’t mean that there is anything outside the basic laws of physics that control our universe, or that materialism is now redundant.

I never said that the universe is outside of the basic laws of physics. There are definitely laws of physics, but our understanding of those laws are changing all the time. The new physical conception of the universe is not material. As QM has not disproven anything such as atoms, particles, photons or energy actually exists prior to the collapse of the wavefunction. The wavefunction is not a material thing it an abstract mathematical function which attempts to model reality prior to the collapse. It strictly is understood to be a potential or possibility. At this level reality is said to be superpositioned meaning that everything is quantumly entangled, nothing is existing as a separate object.

Quantum mechanics has never implied anything in regards to consciousness outside of the physical universe. These are conclusions you have come to, separate from excepted science.

No it does. As that superpositioned state I just mentioned only collapses when there is consciousness(observer) This is because it cannot self-collapse, as everything at the level of the wavefunction is entangled. The only entity that is not entangled the physicist Eugene Wigner proves is consciousness itself. Did the article title I gave, “Quantum physics says goodbye to reality” not make the conclusion specific enough? No such thing as atoms, particles, photons etc can exist if there is no consciousness. First consciousness has to be present, only then can they come into existence. In other QM is actually saying consciousness is prior to the universe.

Nobody is twisting anything other than you not acknowleding the fact that QM has actually proven that consciousness already precedes physical reality. No consciousness = no physical reality.

I actually find it interesting that despite it being so plainly stated in the journal articles I cited you did not read this.

Anyway I don’t think the rest of this thread should be about trying to convince you that QM has disproven materialism. As the proof given with half a dozen journal articles, including a detailed commentary by myself detailing the history, key experiments and key findings has been more than sufficient. You show me no evidence that if I show you any further evidence for anything that science supports on Yoga on, you will be objective about it and I don’t want to waste my time convincing somebody who cannot be objective.

#47

Mild correction for the typo in the above post:

“As QM has not disproven anything such as atoms, particles, photons or energy actually exists prior to the collapse of the wavefunction”

Omit the not.

#48

[QUOTE=High Wolf;38110]Also it is strange that you dismiss the evidence Surya presented. If you look for scientific evidence but have no time to read any science journals, and in fact dismiss them simplistically, then your experience with science becomes incomplete, and you might find yourself entrapped within dogmas.

As for Surya Deva, I agree with FlexPenguin that your posts are kinda long. But I appreciate that you are trying to prove your point.[/QUOTE]

Oh, I did read the scientific journals, I just didn’t read all of SD’s interpretation of them, as I’ve wasted a lot of my life reading many religions interpretations of QM. I never denied that we live in multiple dimensions, I just deny that living in multiple dimensions does not automatically means that there is a god, or continuousness that exists outside of our material world, and QM says NOTHING about karma and reincarnation.

Also, I’m not sure if you agree that the posts are too long or not, you have a go at me for not reading the massive things, then you say you agree that they are too long.

#49

[QUOTE=FlexPenguin;38112]Yogiadam, do you believe that positive thinking produces positive results?[/QUOTE]

Not necessarily, if I had a job interview and I was in a positive frame of mind, then maybe it could help me come across as a positive person, and help me to be considered for the job, more so than if I was in a negative frame of mind and come across a little doubtful. Then there might be a little bit of an advantage of positive thinking. But if I has cancer or I lost my limbs in an accident, then no amount of positive thinking is going to make me not have cancer, or make my missing limbs grow back. So I would say, on some occasions positive thinking may have a little benefit to the outcome, but on many occasions, positive thinking makes no difference whatsoever.

#50

[QUOTE=YogiAdam;38142] I never denied that we live in multiple dimensions, I just deny that living in multiple dimensions does not automatically means that there is a god, or continuousness that exists outside of our material world, and QM says NOTHING about karma and reincarnation.

Also, I’m not sure if you agree that the posts are too long or not, you have a go at me for not reading the massive things, then you say you agree that they are too long.[/QUOTE]

Quantum Physics doesn’t SAY, anything directly, because if scientists start DIRECTLY talking about karma and reincarnation, they’ll lose their academic jobs. That’s a very sad fact of our current social conditions. Because of the hundreds of years denial of Eastern spirituality and making the Cartesian dualism institutional, modern science has become mute to the knowledge of ancients. However, some renowned modern physicists like Fred Alan Wolf explain a lot of things that ties Quantum to reincarnation and karma. Currently, the acceptable terminology is only agreeable to the extent that physicist can talk about CONSCIOUSNESS. Thanks to Sigmund Freud, as well.

For example, have you ever read Wolf’s books (1991, 1994), where he tries to find spiritual evidence to ground Quantum Physics. Or one of his latest books “The Yoga of Time Travel” (2004)? This guy really does talk about karma, reincarnation and yoga, NOT in academic articles, but in non-fiction books. They are still academic, but the author has much more space, where he can literally breathe >.>

Surya’s posts are long indeed, because you resist to see his points ! And I am not taking any sides here, just contributing to the thread, and yes, Yoga and Science are intertwined by all means.

#51

What is interpretative about this, “Quantum physics says goodbye to reality” It is a pretty clearly stated statement.

I never said QM has proven karma and reincarnation. I have said that QM has proven that consciousness is prior to the physical world. There is no physical world without consciousness. It is the very first condition that is required for physical reality to exist.

I am sorry about the length of my posts. I have a habit of being highly detailed, comprehensive and thorough. I don’t have too much time to be brief :wink: However, if you were sincere about your intention to give this case a fair hearing, you would read it anyway. It may take about 5 extra min of your life.

Yogiadam your mind is firmly shut on this matter. You have decided already that god and supernatural/spiritual does not exist and is nonsense and anything and anybody that says that must be nonsense. You are welcome to your beliefs of course, but then you really have no right to go around belittling others beliefs if you are going to do that. In the “Overactive chakras” thread the OP asked the legitimate and specific question about chakras, and you jumped in saying chakras were nonsense. This in my book is no different to any kind of religious fundamentalism. Your religion is materialism.

#52

Your classification of science and pseudoscience is flawd I am afraid, because even science has an agenda. The most naive mistake is to think that science does not have an agenda. Science relies on funds and funds come either from governments or private companies. Scientists are hired to go out and do scientific research to back-up a hypothesis that private company or government has. This has been done for example with the millions spent on global warming research to push the agenda behind global warming. Drug companies do it all the time to produce favourable scientific data to support their drugs. A recent survey showed that scientists admit to fudging data to get a desired results. Some scientific proposals do not get any funding, and as a result they get sidelined.
Well said!

And countless other good points.Folk [I]are[/I] reading this & other contributions here and can play judge for themself.

Their religion (that of capitalists coorporations and the like and those that believe in ,support it or somehow complicit) is materialsim and that is the real pseudo-sicence…well from a yogic & quantum perspective,at least.

#53

Materialst science does like to masquerade as true knowledge.And any science will persist as long as practical applications are coming out from it. What those may be may depend in part on values, or perhaps i should say, on what tends to be valued.And this may differ from one culture or epoch to another.

#54

Materialism can definitely qualfiy as a religion and matches many of its properties as defined by the wider technical term of religion and the normal cultural expressions of religions

  1. A set of beliefs rigidly held
  2. A rigid set of rituals and practices life is lived by
  3. Faith in institutions
  4. Fundamentalist activity

In materialism the following are some of the beliefs that are rigidly held onto

  1. Everything can be reduced to matter and explained as matter. There is nothing outside of matter. Any claims of non-material things are nonsense.
  2. Mind and consciousness are biproducts of the brain.
  3. All things must be proven by empiricism. No evidence which is not empriical is evidence(rational, testimonial, phenomenological etc)
  4. Anything which goes against the material worldview, even if it is science, must be false
  5. Creation began with a big bang by itself and then evolved into living organisms by itself then evolved by itself through random natural selection/ life is a fluke
  6. The purpose of life is to reproduce and pass on ones genes
  7. The human is material consumer and producer. So consumerist capitalism is natural and has always been like this
  8. The main philosophy of life is hedonism - eat, drink and be merry.

A rigid set of rituals and practices life is adhered by

  1. Finding your place in your workforce and working long hours
  2. Going out to pub, clubs and bars to socialise(most often on the weekend)
  3. Body culture(gyming, Yoga for physical health, diet, weight loss)
  4. Advertising products
  5. Entertainment

Faith institutions

  1. Scientists and whatever they say is accepted on faith value
  2. Media and whatever it says is accepted on face value

Fundamentalist activity

  1. Ridicule and ostracization of non-materialist worldviews
  2. Campaigns to destroy non-materialist worldviews
  3. Persecution of those holding onto non-materialist worldviews. Such as sacking scientists for presenting theories or evidence proving non-materialist worldviews.
#55

[QUOTE=High Wolf;38145]Quantum Physics doesn’t SAY, anything directly, because if scientists start DIRECTLY talking about karma and reincarnation, they’ll lose their academic jobs.[/QUOTE]

I don’t think its true. I know many physicists talking directly about spiritual aspects of the world and physics and not loosing their jobs. There is one lecturer at the faculty when I was studying who practiced yoga most of his life and was able to stop his heart beat at command. And he is respected member of the faculty - probably because his metaphysical beliefs do not interfere with quality of his work.

I think quantum physicists doesn’t say anything directly about karma and reincarnation because its not the scope of current physics and it usually shows motives different than search for truth. Experiments of quantum mechanics deal with photons and single atoms. How can you jump from interpretation of behavior of few photons to such theories as karma or reincarnation without any theoretical framework? You can jump, but there may be nothing to safely land on (that is solid, mathematical theory that could explain observed phenomena).

#56

Regarding karma and reincarnation. I did not actually say QM has proven karma and reincarnation, I said that the psychologist Ian Stevenson has proven reincarnation and has been published in scientific journals. His book details 20 cases which can only be explained by reincarnation. Recently, more research has been done in this field producing strong evidence.

I will however say something about QM in relation to karma and reincarnation. Karma as it is understood in Yoga is a law of the mind and is basically a bundle of thinking habits that we develop which affect our behaviour(modern psychology supports this) They are stored in our unconscious mind. So far very scientific. However, this karma also has the power to physically manifest either in the body or in the external world as an event. Not many would have a problem in accepting that thinking habits do have the power to materialise as physical disease. However, they would have a problem in accepting that thinking habits can actually manifest in the external world itself.

Now when assessed by the findings of QM it is not that problematic. QM has found that consciousness does indeed have the power to cause manifestation to begin. Again the electron wave only becomes a particle when it is observed. Several studies have shown that consciousness does have the power to manifest physical things at a distance. This would explain how karma can cause physical manifestation to take place. It is suggested we become an attractor for whatever we think. If our mind is full of negative thoughts, the world responds by manifesting negative events in our life. Another example are synchronities where we think of somebody we have not heard from for a while, and then all of a sudden they call.

Moreover, by QM proving that there is no locality and everything is interconnected. It makes sense that whatever you do, and the consequence of what you do, feeds back to you.

QM of course cannot measure karma much less prove reincarnation is going on. However, the new idealist paradigm it has ushered in makes such things very possible.

#57

Anyway, I’m done. I’ve given an explanation of how science works. ALL religions accuse atheists of being ‘religious’ an ALL religions use QM to try and convince others that their religion is ‘scientific’. In hindsight I should probably not have attempted to bring skepticism and rational thought onto a religious/spiritual forum. I realize now, it’s as logical as bring up evolution on a Christian forum. I said what I want to say, but I’m done going round in circles on this thread and getting nowhere. I feel like I’m trying to explain iphones to the elderly :slight_smile:

#58

You don’t actually seem to know how science works, and many people seem to have noticed that. Anyway, like I said, this thread should not be about convincing you, for that would be a waste of time and energy of everybody, as you are obviously not objective on this matter. This thread should be about Yoga and science and exploring the relationship between them.

#59

Yeah, that is kind of my point. If I went on a Christian forum and brought up Evolution, I’d be wasting my time and effort there as well. I realize now my audience is very small, which is what I should expect on a religious/spiritual forum. This is, after all, a Yoga forum, not a science forum. Obviously I should really keep my discussions about science on the science forum, and not on Yoga forums, or creationist forums or any other religious forums. If you’d prefer to change my thread and turn it into a ‘Yogic science’ conversation, be my guest… and enjoy.

#60

Hey, Adam! Here is the great website there you can find some answers hhttp://www.metempyrion.org/