Yoga and Science

Spirituality
#1

This is a continuation of the discussion in Siro’s thread on Yoga and its relevance to science. I am starting a separate thread to focus the discussion more on Yoga and science.

A summary of my position: Yoga is absolutely a science, because it meets the criteria in our modern definition of science today that it is based on a valid methodology of obtaining knowledge and theory(Samkhya) While, there are some who buy into the Western stereotypes which stereotype Yoga as “exotic, irrational, mystical, intuitive” and there are many who peddle this myth and see Yoga as an antithesis and antidote to “science” - what they lack is historical and philosophical context - they do not realize that Yoga was developed in a highly scientific culture and is an applied technology developed from a scientific method. Yoga is strongly based on phenomenological observation, a qualitative research method where one collects data through pure observation. In Yoga the subject of research is mind so it uses mental phenomenology to observe exactly how the mind works. Some of those observations are

  1. What are the classes of thoughts?
    Valid knowledge, Fallacious knowledge, Memory, Imagination and sleep
  2. What are the types of emotions that can colour thoughts?
    Ignorance, attachment, aversion, egoity and self-preservation
  3. What are the levels of thought?
    Causal, subtle, gross, corresponding to unconscious, subconscious and conscious
  4. What is the relationship between mind and body?
    Breath frequency, regularity and depth is directly proportional to thought activity
    Body postures, gestures elicit distinct effects in the mind(lying down can cause drowsiness; straight erect spine can cause the mind to be attentive and wakeful)
  5. What is the relationship between mind and behaviour?
    Behaviour are habits which are caused by unconscious and subconscious thought impressions which are learned(while others, are innate like instinct) this includes our phobias and psychological and physiological responses to stimuli. A fear of balloons for instance takes place because at some point in our history we had a negative experience with the object “balloon” which has become associated with it and coloured with “aversion” Whenever the object “balloon” is encountered in the external world or something related to it, it triggers the unconscious and subconscious and then manifests in our behaviour(e.g. activating the sympathetic nervous system)

This is pure science and anybody who is familiar with modern theories of psychology will recognize a lot of parallelisms. There is nothing mystical, superstitious and irrational here. So how do we deal with the more spiritual concepts in Yoga such as prana, chakras, kundalini, purusha, prakriti, siddhis, reincarnation? These too are based on science. They are both theoretical entities predicted in Yoga and are also entities which are directly experienced by advanced yogis. To understand the theoretical science behind these one needs to study Samkhya and how they use rational methods to conclude their existence. The methods used by Samkhya are no different to how in modern physics we conclude the existence of theoretical entities like atoms, gravity dark matter and extra dimensions of the universe. Therefore, if you accept modern theoretical entities, then you should have no problem accepting the Yoga theoretical entities, otherwise you are committing the fallacy of inconsistency where you accept A is B, but not C is D.

In the other thread I have already covered some of the theoretical grounds for the existence of prana etc, so I will very briefly summarize: Prana etc are quantum phenomena. They cannot be detected by any material instruments. However, we know they exist from the effects we notice in the body: For example we know there are various processes in the body that coordinate a complex network of functions in the body(breathing, metabolism, digestion, elimination, circulation, cognition, sensory-motor coordination) Although, when we examine the physiology of the body all the organs seem to be isolated from one another, we know at the quantum level all the processes of the body are interdependent, and nothing exists in isolation. The quantum forces known as pranas, or complex quantum circuits like chakras and nadi system where the chakras act as transformers regulate this complex activity.

Remember, your pranic network is not isolated to the body, but rather is embedded within a universal pranic network. Effectively, everything is interdependent and interconnected. When your consciousness is able to tap the deeper unconscious aspect the consciousness gains access to this complex pranic network and this is how the siddhis become possible: such as telepathy, remote viewing, precognition and telekinesis etc.

Still, pure science.

#3

Thank you.

The specific definitions are established only based on how the mind and body/mind and behaviour are seen to work. Yes, I do not dismiss the possibility that maybe at some level these relationships will no longer work - but at our empirical level these relationships certainly seem to work and hold true(if this was not true, none of the Yoga techniques would work). Also, remember Yoga phenomenology is not just based on our empirical level of consciousness, but goes all the way up to the highest level of samadhi. Hence, the Yoga sutras effectively map out the entire territory of the mind .

The Yoga map is actually quite simple: Mental noise level/thought activity is inversely proportional to the depth of ones consciousness. Simply put, the higher your thought activity, the lower the state of consciousness you will be in. So how do you lower your thought activity? Well there are many ways, but one of the most effective and mechanical ways of doing it is by reducing the breaths per min. We can find empirical proof of this with EEG’s. It is found that as the brainwaves change from alpha, beta, then delta, theta and gamma waves the breaths per min reduce. Another observation is the gap between thoughts increases as the breath per min reduces.

So my point is, this is science. It is like saying the electrical or gravitational force is inversely proportional to the square of the distance between two particles or force is directly proportional to the change in momentum. This is why I am pointing Yoga comes from a scientific culture which interprets reality very much like modern day scientists do.
We can treat Yoga as a pure science.

Regarding the connection between the quantum and Yoga. I am not actually bringing in anything new to Yoga, Yoga science is already based on the concept of the quantum. Again, not many people realize the concept of a quantum field is not new, it comes from Samkhya-Yoga philosophy(Erwin Schrodinger derived his theory from Samkhya-Yoga according to his biographer) First, we need to understand exactly what the quantum is, because there is a lot of confusion about what the quantum is. Some say the quantum is energy, some say it just refers to the subatomic world of particles, some say it is waves or vibrations(of what?) None of these are true: The quantum is completely immaterial(it is not energy) it in indescribable, infinite and purely abstract. In fact the quantum is a purely mathematical abstraction.

We use the “quantum” to describe any given particle at point d and time t, because actually the particle does not exist, it is constantly fleeting in and out of existence(the particle in this state of non-existence is known as a virtual particle. Therefore as we know the particle as such does not exist, but rather it is a superpostioning of many possibilities we describe it using a wavefunction which calculates the probability of it appearing at point d and time t. According to quantum theory everything has its own distinct wavefunction.

Samkhya-Yoga’s postulation of the quantum field is based on very much the same kind of logic, except it is a logical but not mathematical description. According to Samkhya no particles as such exists, what we think to be particles are a function of the gunas which are like vibrating quantum strings and constitute every particle. At the quantum level of reality the vibrations of the gunas produce all the material activity in our manifest reality(but our manifest reality consists of a mental dimension which is absent in modern quantum theory and string theory) Mind is a deeper reality than physical reality. Thus the barrier where the physical quantum ends, is where the reality of mind begins.

To simplify it further: What Samkhya-Yoga says is mind and matter are part of a continuum and they feedback to one another. So mind can affect matter, and matter can affect mind. However, mind is more subtle and deeper than matter. This subtle mind aspect we directly experience as our own chitta and the activities of our chitta produce our body and our experiences. Thus Yoga states that by silencing the activities of the chitta we will stop the mind from producing more experiences and body - effectively when the mind is stilled, the true witnessing consciousness is revealed fully.

The mind-matter feedback loop is exploited in all PSI and siddhi phenomena. So why does the PSI wheel move for instance when you intently focus on it? The answer from Yoga is you are gaining access to the mental dimension of the PSI wheel, which gives you power to affect it directly. If you do not gain access to its mental dimension, you will not be able to move the PSI wheel. However, your control of the PSI wheel is very limited, theoretically according to Yoga you can control every single atom in the PSI wheel and make the PSI wheel do whatever you want. As it says in Yoga, a powerful yogi can even turn a single blade of grass into a nuclear weapon!

#5

I essentially agree with you that one cannot forcibly reduce their breathing rate per minute. The natural breathing rate has to be brought down gradually, slowly and naturally. This happens naturally when one enters meditation, however it can also be brought about through the practice of pranayama exercises. In my meditations for example, I have consciously controlled my breath and gradually reduced the rate in a natural manner, and I have found I have been able to enter into very deep states of consciousness. Preferably though, one should practice pranayama exercises regularly daily to bring their natural breathing rate down. This will be beneficial not just for meditation but for everyday mindfulness.

I think we understand different things when we say “still the mind” When I say still the mind, I am talking about the chitta-activity as Yoga says. This is unconscious activity that we are not ordinarily privy too. I do not mean simply just blanking ones conscious mind, as some people do. The conscious part of the mind is a mere tip of the iceberg.

People overdosing on Xanax will not actually still the chitta activity, but in fact they will put it into violent activity. This is why enlightenment cannot be achieved through drugs, because once the drug is taken it puts the chitta into violent activity leaving one completely prey to storms it produces in the mind. Once, the activity exhausts itself the “trip” finishes. However, it leaves subtle impressions behind in the mind which after time can develop into addictions, causing yet more chitta activity.

#7

Indeed, Pranayama is a forced activity, however we understand different things by the word force here. You see a force can be of various intensities, it can be extreme effort, mild effort to slight effort. Some people get overexcited for example with pranayama exercises and can put themselves into hyperventilation and hypoventilation states, which is one reason teachers advise caution. However, those of us who practice more responsibly will only put in slight to medium effort. Many teachers recommend starting a meditation by doing a round of pranayama because the pranayama calms the mind and readies it for deeper meditation. However, pranayama itself can be used as a meditation - and I know this from experience where I as said I have been able to put myself in higher states of consciousness through pranayama. Eventually, when I get deep enough, I cease the exercise and just allow myself to sink in.

In ordinary breath meditation, one is still subconsciously doing some pranayama. That is because one puts themselves in an artificial situation where they watch their breath, that one finds subconsciously they are controlling the natural rhythm of their breath. Some teachers recognizing that this happens, say it is OK to control the breath slightly at the start and then eventually settle into a more natural mode. The pranayama exercise helps to harmonize the flow of the breath.

Practicing regular pranayama exercises brings down your natural breathing rate in general after the exercises and over time the natural breathing rate stabalizes at a new and lower rate. Hence why the exercises are useful and actually they form a core part of Yoga practice. I am not denying what you say about concentration practices, this is actually what pranayama eventually leads up to, but pranayama facilitates the concentration practice. In the Yoga Upanishads it tells us there are two ways to control the mind 1) By concentration and by 2) Pranayama. The former it says is very difficult, but the latter proves to be an effective mechanics means as it is observed controlling the prana also controls the chitta. Indeed, my experience backs this up: After a round of pranayama I find my concentration sharper and my awareness more alert.

Regarding drugs and herbal supplements, you are right that the some ancient yogis did take some formulations regularly, however it is also true that the yogi eventually had no use for these. Eventually, we need to be able to enter naturally into meditative states without the use of any external means. In the beginning, it would be indeed beneficial to give yourself a supplement, but within limits of course. More powerful drugs may indeed bring about higher states of consciousness and siddhis etc, but their effects are temporal and prolonged use is harmful to the mind and body.

#9

I use to treat the Patanjali’s asht+anga system as a ladder as well. Indeed, this is one traditional interpretation of the system. The guru would have you focus on the the limbs of yama and niyama for several years of your life, before you were promoted to the actual yoga techniques. However, Patanjali never actually says that his scheme is a ladder scheme, in fact the word “anga” which mean limb is not the same as rung or step. In fact he divides the limbs into two aspects: external(yama, niyama, asanas, pranayama) and internal(pratyahara onwards or meditation) So there is no suggestion here of practicing them in some set order or sequence, but rather to practice them all as part of your total practice. This is my interpretation: That all limbs are needed and they compliment one another in achieiving the goal of Yoga: chitt-vritti control.

Now you suggest that we should begin at the higher limbs and this will percolate into mastery of the lower limbs. However, let me ask you how can you sit down to meditate if your body is not fit enough to sit to meditate? It is a common experience of all beginner meditators(including myself) that sitting still for even more than 5 min at a time is difficult, the body starts to ache and pains and itches start appearing over your body, which makes it very difficult to remain focussed. This is why asanas are used in Yoga and later it evolved into Hatha Yoga Recently, at a Buddhist retreat, where asanas are not practiced, we had to meditate completely still for over an hour at a time, I noticed that everybody struggled remaining still and at the end of the practice everybody naturally did stretching exercises(including myself) Prior to the next meditation, a lot of people did a routine of asanas in the foyer and this certainly reflected for the better in the quality of their meditation.

The external limbs of Yoga all help in priming one for the internal limb of meditation, this is why they exist - otherwise there would be no need for them. Your everyday lifestyle for instance covered in yamas and niyamas makes a massive difference to the quality of thoughts in your meditation. Similarly, have a more flexible body makes a massive difference to how long you can stay in meditation. Likewise, regular breathing exercises improves the flow of prana in your body and develops focus powers. You maybe fortunate that you already have highly developed concentration power that you can go straight to meditation, but for others(including myself) certain preliminaries need to be satisfied.

I must say your view on Pranayama has surprised me, because it is not a view that I see commonly reported by yogis and famous yoga teachers as well other spiritual practices similar to Yoga(like Qiqong, Hermetics) Where pranayama is seen as a vital and crucial practice for higher spiritual attainment. Swami Vivekananda says that pranayama is the key to all siddhis and psychic attainments; Franz Bardon includes breathing and pore-breathing as a fundamental technique for all magical practices. Taoist masters include chi-breathing as vital. Tantra masters include breathing(especially spinal breathing) in all advanced tantra alchemical practices. Again, from experience, through breath control I myself have been able to enter very deep states of consciousness.
This is not to dispute that you have lesser or no need for pranayama, it is entirely possible you already have good concentration power and do not require it, but most of us who do not, require it.

Regarding concentration power and how modern education system aids it. I must say you went to a far better school than I did! On the contrary, I found the modern education system erodes concentration power, because the emphasis in the modern education system is on rote learning - memorizing or cramming loads of information - that we only memorize for a test and then later forget. This same criticism of the modern education system was made by the great modern yogi Sri Aurobindo. In contrast, and contrary to what you about the ancient Indian education system, there was indeed a mass Indian education system(gurukul) which was three tier: school, college and university(the first universities built in the world were in India: Taxila, Nalanda etc) However, the peculiarity of the Indian education system was it was largely an oral tradition as opposed to a written one. Rather than being content-specific, the education focused on the development of the mental faculties(concentration, memory, intellect, character) So that they could master and learn any content. This is why you find so many brilliant geniuses in the Indian tradition(Panini, Patanjali, Pingala, Kanada, Kapila, Sushrutha, Charaka, Vyasa, Aryabhatta, Kalidasa, etc)

The modern education system in contrast is abysmal. As we rely too much on just cramming information from books and performing calculations on calculators. We have become so dependent that we have lost the use of our faculties and our attention span has become pathologically small(average is a few min now days) that we are developing modern problems like ADHD which is becoming increasingly common in our new generation of kids. This is why, contrary to your optimism, many modern people find it very difficult to meditate and focus.

Not to dispute your claim that you have taught many people to meditate without pranayama. Indeed, one can meditate without knowing anything about pranayama and in thervada Buddhism pranyama is not important to meditate. However, this is also what I perceive to be a shortcoming of orthodox Buddhism - it lacks the necessary energy work done in Yoga. The asanas and pranayama exercises in my opinion are necessary in achieving more advanced stages and this is why it is a major aspect of most spiritual traditions. In short, I am not going to give up on pranayama just yet :smiley:

As for drugs: I do not really dispute what you are saying about how they can be helpful in ones path, especially in giving one a taste of higher experiences. I myself have ritually taken magic mushrooms and had one of the profoundest spiritual experiences of my life - I never did them again because my aim was to get a glimpse and not to use them as recreation. However, I will caution against prolonged use of drugs to attain higher states of consciousness, as it shown that they can produce chemical and psychological dependency. Although, you have given examples of where you usage of weed lead to a fairly positive experience for you, I know of cases of a few friends where weed has lead to severe problems of addiction, mental retardation and depression. If one can mindfully engage in these practices and has good will power I have no problem in advising that one tries taking drugs to get glimpses of what is possible in spiritual practice - however the prevailing opinion of Yoga is that it is unnecessary and superfluous - one does not have to to take any drugs to achieve higher spiritual states, simply practicing the path of Yoga is enough. Although Patanjali mentions herbs, mantras and drugs as means to attain spiritual attainments he clearly indicates them as superfluous means - the best means is of course the entire path of Yoga he prescribes.

#12

I agree, it is difficult when you first sit down to meditate as well! However, I would say there are degrees of difficult and some easier to manage than others. The mind being more subtle, invisible and flowing is more difficult to manage than say your solid body. The solid body can be managed through physical exercises, and indeed many yogis especially modern yogis can get it into good shape - but may suck at meditation :smiley: Stabalizing the body basically reduces one of the disturbing factors that prevent meditation from taking place effortlessly. All other techniques control for other factors which prevent meditation:

Breathing: Irregular, shallow and fast breathing
Sensory stimuli: Distractions
Concentration: Scattered thinking

In Yogic language all of these disturbing factors produce vritti activity. So it makes sense why Yogis developed an assortment of Yogic techniques like asanas, pranayama, dharana, trataka, mudras, bandhas - they all facilitate meditation. So my personal advise would be to an aspiring meditator to practice all these different techniques.

The ladder-scheme though is not explicitly stated by Patanjali, in the way you presents it make logical sense and I am sure Patanjali too had this in mind when describing the order of the limbs. Indeed, as I said earlier some traditional Yoga schools have interpreted it like a ladder. Mastery of one limb lead to the next. So yamas and niyamas were mastered first over years(!) and through service to the Guru before the Guru initiated the student into asanas etc. Then again some Yoga traditions like Hatha Yoga completely left out yamas and niyamas, saying that there is no need to practice them separately as they would automatically develop with the mastery of asanas and pranayama. Still, some traditions have focused only one some limbs: Jnana Yoga only looks at svadharma or self-study and Bhakti Yoga only on surrender to Ishvara. All of these paths are valid and show that not all limbs are absolutely necessary. But at the same time I feel that these paths are not holistic and because of their emphasis on some limbs to the exclusion of others they are wrought with many problems and pitfalls. This is why I consider Patanjali’s Ashtanga Kriya Yoga path the best path, the most scientific and holistic (I have a bit of love for the Tantra paths as well!) and when you practice all 8 limbs you will develop in a balanced way.

Now the practice of the 8 limbs can done in a ladder fashion and I use to accept this, in fact a few years ago when I joined this forum I angered many people when I told they should stop meditating! My reason because they need to first master the early stages before moving to meditation. To actually enter into meditation you first need to enter the stage of pratyahara - and to enter true pratyahara is difficult and rare. I have only ever entered it two or three times in my life! When you enter it, as you may already know intimately, the senses begin to shut down, you introvert into your mind and it feels as if you have been submerged under water. Then concentration becomes easier because there is no sensory disturbance. But I realized eventually I am going about this the wrong way. So what if I have not entered proper pratyahara, I still can try meditating anyway. I realized(for myself) that I can practice all the techniques of Yoga separately including the advanced ones. So I divided up my practices like this: I would do a meditation morning and evening, and then other times of the day I would practice the other limbs separately. I found by doing so my formal meditation sittings got progressively better.

Normally, in my meditations I do not do any pranayama, because I prefer meditations to be natural. I do my pranayamas separately. However, sometimes I do indeed find it helps a little to cheat a bit and begin the first few minutes of meditation with pranayama. Now, having learned the spinal breathing technique from Kriya Yoga, I can do entire meditations using pranayama. I am not sure if you tried - but try the spinal breathing meditation - it is one of the most potent ones I have come across so far.

#13

Sorry for writting, but i did hear and read that “drugs” can take you to the enlightenment, give you those “mystical powers” if you know how to lead with them (Mescaline, Mushrooms). I’ve understood that these psychic poweres are inside of us, thats why we somethimes have paranormal experiences spontaneously. And we’re enlightened already, but we have to realize, that’s why these plants help.

#14

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;80208]
Normally, in my meditations I do not do any pranayama, because I prefer meditations to be natural. I do my pranayamas separately. .[/QUOTE]

Permit me to add my two bits to this discussion.
Let us remember that the Yoga Sutras are “Sutras”. Sutras by definition were highly condensed but extremely well thought out sentences. When Patanjali uses the term “anga” to describe the eight steps , we have to accept that “anga” is , as you have said limbs and not steps. These practices may well need to performed (at least the first four) simultaneously and not necessarily in sequence.
However, it is my experience that with sufficient experience, not much conscious energy needs to be expended to maintain the pranayama breath ratios and it becomes more or less automatic. This is the stage when we feel the withdrawal of the senses-pratyhara. Without pratyhara , the practice of concentration can only be peripheral. Indeed it is difficult to distinguish clearly between pratyhara and dharana as the effects are intertwined.
While pranayama is often done separately also, many teachers like to maintain a sequence of pranayam, japa, dharana with pratyhara being an induced state somewhere in between.

#15

Allow me to post my humble opinion on this topic:

Personally I gave up comparing details of modern science with details of yoga science.
Since every science has its own paradigm (where rules for discrimination and comparing is defined), one easily ends up complaining the other science is prone to confirmation bias (which is a paradoxal situation).

I prefer just try to understand every one of them.
There are many sciences with many different paradigms, and in the end there is many ways of doing many things.
In my opinion the ancient beliefs, indian vedic science and all that…has made the empirical paradigm of modern science possible, and therefore is a building block of modern science.
It will always be a source of great inspiration for intelligent modern scientists.

I look at sciences like I look at programming languages: in every programming language different things are right and wrong. Therefore, comparing oldfashioned programming language A with hypermodern language B will not make better programmers: its the mind of the programmer who creates great applications, regardless of what is wrong and right in that particular language.
Humans are so intelligent, they can adapt so easily to new situations.

Anyways, ofcoarse not all aspects of yoga science are integrated in modern science, because some aspects are too subtle to test on large volumes of people (or measurement technology is not available). Investigation of these fields are not for average people, and are investigated by particular, experimental, curious individuals (welcome to the club).
Important is to not oppose these uncovered fields with modern science just because they are not integrated (yet?).

We should count ourselves lucky :slight_smile:

#16

Sorry for writting, but i did hear and read that “drugs” can take you to the enlightenment, give you those “mystical powers” if you know how to lead with them (Mescaline, Mushrooms). I’ve understood that these psychic poweres are inside of us, thats why we somethimes have paranormal experiences spontaneously. And we’re enlightened already, but we have to realize, that’s why these plants help.

Imho there are many ways of doing many things, and the yogic path is a safe path, which enables voluntairy expansion of consciousness.
The external path you describe, differs in that it triggers involuntairy expansion of consciousness, you can’t just simply snap your fingers and exit an experience.
Another obstacle is that the external way of bringing substances into the body, bypasses the gland-organs, therefore creating the perfect dose is tricky.
Immediately these questions arise: How does a psychonaut knows whether he had an enlightning experience, or just an paralizing episode?
All these external substances can be created by your internal organs, wouldnt it be great to train those glands and control them?

Ofcoarse I know there is never one way, but at least I would research the following topics if you decide to go for this path:

  • what is the relationship of schizophrenia and drugs
  • how can one sustain an drug-induced state?
#17

I want to do a big research before I get into the world of drugs. It can be dangerous, i know, that’s why I keep looking for more and more information.

I’ve read in some books and sites that Shamans and some other people use drugs to expand their consciousness, but they control their trip. If you don’t get lost in the way these drugs could be useful to reach those states of consciousness and more. Hope it makes sense.

#18

hm is this guy on this forum?

again, it seems somebody did not get the fact that patanjali embodied science into yoga. This guy tries to do an old science-vs-yoga opposition, which in my opinion is a distorted comparison in the first place (see this thread). I think he probably dealt with some overly dogmatic yogastudents or personal history etc.

#19

[QUOTE=Siro;80172]You have a misperception on the matter. Yes certain drugs will allow you to enter into advanced states more easily… but those same drugs will also allow you to progress much more quickly. Meaning you can progress into deeper states faster. So the next time you do not have the drug in your system, it will be easier to enter that state because you have already entered it once. The drug can allow the brain-pathways to become established in the brain. Once the pathways are established and Samadhi is possible, then the drug will no longer be needed to access those pathways. Back in my early high school days I used to smoke a lot of weed, it was really bad for my concentration at the time. But ever since I stopped smoking, 1 thing remains. When I enter deep into meditation I can feel the cognitive enhancements that I used to feel when very high off weed, yet I have none of the cognitive impairement. That is because while weed did nuke my concentration, the cognitive enhancements that it caused stayed in my brain. If I had never experienced them, then I wouldn’t have these pathways in my brain when I meditate sober(which is always now).[/QUOTE]
Just saying ‘hello’ right here. :smiley: