Yoga in the Western World

Yoga Discussion General Yoga
#16

I can see the point in having a shared experience of Yoga and having somebody to examine if you are doing the posture properly, which is why I said that it is useful to attend a few classes every now and then, to make sure you are doing it correctly.
However, I feel that the notion that we must attend classes regularly is overestimated and perhaps based on some self-doubt, that we are not doing things correctly and constantly need supervision. I mean how many classes and realignments do you need before you feel your downward dog is OK, and feel no need for more realignments?

I think one of the reasons the Yoga industry exists is because there is this constant realignment business going on - no matter which teacher you go to, they are probably going to realign you, even if you had already been realigned by your older teacher. This puts doubt in ones mind that their practice needs to be constantly realigned till it is perfect. But isn’t the truth that your downwards dog will get progressively better itself the more and more you practice - it will eventually fall into place.

In the Yogasutras Patanjali talks about the asana as eventually falling into place as you practice, you eventually find the right way to do it that suits your body. You feel what is right for your body. A teacher probably thinks something else is right for you, but they can’t feel what you are feeling. Only you can really know what is right for you.

Hence, my point is that I think the need for attending classes and having a teacher is overestimated. In the many Yoga classes I have attended, I have not really felt a huge difference in doing my practice in a class with a teacher and doing it at home, except that when I do it at home, I am a lot more comfortable and more in-tune with the rhythm of my body - and of course I save money.

#17

I’ve heard that in India when Indians do yoga they are rarely so concerned with alignment as westerners are.

#18

Chitta-sometimes…and it sometimes causes injuries.

Surya- I am glad that you do practice at home and have the self motivation to do so and that you so go to class now and again to develop your practice. But not everyone can do that…I am a teacher but I sometimes struggle with practicing alone…I will be lazy or easily get distracted from my practice and any small excuse can take me off my mat…But if I do my self practice in a room along with my junior teachers or friend then I work more.
One of my private clients is very familiar with the Ashtanga practice but she will slack off if working at home alone…she just need me to keep her on her mat and offer adjustments and answer her questions about developing/improving/changing her practice.
For many people self practice is a big struggle (they may have lots of distractions at home kids, family, phone, etc etc) and they need to be in a class…being motivated, challenged, taught, encouraged etc…and getting away from the distractions of home…

#19

While I practice at home, what I enjoy about class is being inspired by a teacher who has a very good home practice of their own, and keeps growing in their experience of yoga

#20

I love my new yoga studio here in las vegas… It’s called blue sky yoga. It’s a small room in the art district (max capacity 14?) There are paintings for sale on the wall. Its closed first fridays of the month for art shows…

Anyway, as the website says… 100% donation based. There is a donation box infront of the room (small sign on box $12suggested donation) I always give $5-10 for an hour class. I see people give $2-$3 that makes me sad because I love all my teachers and i want them to prosper. I really wonder at times how the owner makes ends meet.

If your rich please send my teachers a check! or send us new wood floors! :slight_smile:

I’m new to this studio but looks like it has been donation based like this for over 3years.

#21

First, welcome to the forums Violetta! Looking forward to your contributions. And you posed a very interesting question and have received many differing views.

Some thoughts that your post and some comments have inspired:
For many here in the West, Yoga is nothing but asana. Purely physical. And that’s fine if that’s all you want. There are studio’s that are run purely to make a profit and have no idea what the true meaning of Yoga is. Those studio’s cater to those who merely want exercise. There is a need and they fill it. Is this right? Perhaps for those students, at this time in their life, it is. But I like to think of it as a path to uncovering Yoga’s deeper meaning. Some will soon realize it after only a few classes. Others may take a bit longer, while others have no interest for whatever reason. I look at it as a way to pull them in.

I do see things changing in the West. I see more and more students hungry for Yoga. The asana’s become just a small slice of the whole. I see my students coming to class upwards of 30 minutes early to quiet the mind and meditate. We engage in meaningful conversations about living yoga. Taking it off the mat. When class ends, if they remain still and silent I know they’ve succeeded and as their teacher, so have I. But with all that being said, teachers need to make a living and studio’s need to make payroll and pay the bills. For what students get out of a yoga class, the cost is a mere donation. Yoga teachers will not get rich teaching, unless you are the likes of Rodney Yee, etc. Teachers plan, research and put a lot of time and effort into their classes. They should be compensated.

While the sense of community is a plus, I have found that is secondary to actual learning and discovering. (and not just the asana’s)

And finally, there is nothing natural about many of the asana’s. Asana practice is to get the body prepared for sitting in meditation for extended periods. Each body is different. Each body has different levels of flexibility. The reason for different or constant adjustments (verbal or physical) is not only to keep students safe, but to assist the student in going deeper when they are ready. This takes the keen eye of a good teacher. A home practice is as important as coming to class. They compliment each other. And from my perspective, there is no perfecting a pose. That should never be the goal. The goal is to be the pose. Feel it. Experience it. When we strive to “perfect” a pose, we are allowing ego to be our guide. A modified Trikonasana with a block or placing your hand on your shin instead of the floor is as appropriate as placing your hand on the floor. It all depends on your body structure, physical limitations and flexibility. In a good yoga class, you will see all students doing a beautiful Trikonasana, and each of them will look different in the pose.

#22

[QUOTE=Chitta Control;68816]I’ve heard that in India when Indians do yoga they are rarely so concerned with alignment as westerners are.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I got that as well. I think this realignment business seems to be more of a modern Western thing, than an Indian traditional thing. In my perusal of classical literature on Yoga, including the Hathayogapradapika, I have found nary a reference to ‘realignment’ But I wouldn’t say that the hatha yogis did not care about realignment, surely their guru would have corrected their techniques from time to time, but I doubt it would have been as much as the modern yogi and their teacher think is necessary.

I also have also found nary a mention of group classes of yogis doing asanas together under the supervision of a Guru. I think the reason for this is, Yoga hasn’t really been a social activity or fitness regimen, but a personal spiritual path that one has been initiated into. In Hathayoga in particular, the emphasis has not been on asanas, but more on body control to awaken dormant capabilities and capacities, and asana is simply one technique used to accomplish this.

Yoga in the Western world seems to be something different altogether. Typically when we say I am doing ‘Yoga’ in the West it means we attend classes and do yoga postures together. The purpose is not to master the body and awaken its powers, but improve flexbility, treat a disorder, reduce stress, lose weight, tone up, get fit. It is problematic to even call this ‘yoga’

The yoga that I do(and I do hatha yoga asanas on the side) Kriya yoga, would not even be called yoga by most Western yogis. There is only one asana practice in my routine(Mahamudra) the rest of it is breath and energy work, concentration and meditation. The emphasis, like Hatha yoga, is to awaken the bodies dormant powers and to achieve also the highest goal of self-realization. This is traditionally what would be called 'Yoga’
As Krrya yoga is my spiritual practice, it is personal to me, and I don’t really talk about it with others that much and always practice on my own, at my own pace, usually in solitude.

Similarly, most Western yogis would not call the intellectual self-inquiry and sciptural reading practices of the Vedantin yoga. The traditional Vedantin does not use any physical techniques(asanas, pranayamas etc) The only technique they may use is meditation. Likewise, the devotional practices of the Bhakta/religious person. Yet, the Vedantin and Bhakta’s yoga is proper Yoga in that it is directed towards achieiving self-realization, only their techniques are different.

Yoga has never really been about improving ones flexbility, losing weight, reducing stress or therapy, as it seems to be in the Western world. These, while beneficial effects of yoga practice, mean nothing to the traditional yogi. It has always been a spiritual path for a spiritual aspirant desirious of achieiving the final goal of liberation from samsara - moksha/self realization/god realization. Hence, traditionally I would probably be recognized more as a real yogi, as opposed to the Western yogis socializing with their peers in the studio doing Sun salutations together, and getting their constant realignments by their teacher.

#23

There is a rumour Sri Patthabi Jois developed Ashtanga series to train the Indian army. Group activity exercise in the East?

#24

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;68843]As Kriya yoga is my spiritual practice, it is personal to me, and I don’t really talk about it with others that much and always practice on my own, at my own pace, usually in solitude.
[/QUOTE]

SD - Was kriya yoga what Paramhansa Yogananda practiced? Could you please describe kriya yoga or point me to some good references so I can learn more about it? While I may be more of what you call a “western” yoga person (as the health aspects are very valuable to me for staying healthy, flexible, etc for managing the stressful work I do), I do enjoy the breath and internal energy aspects greatly, and find they give my yoga practice an enjoyable dynamic. Anyway, I look forward to hearing what you have to say. (Maybe good to start a new post about this topic?)

#25

SD - Was kriya yoga what Paramhansa Yogananda practiced? Could you please describe kriya yoga or point me to some good references so I can learn more about it?

Yes, Kriya Yoga comes from the lineage of Yogananda. However, Kriya Yoga really speaking is basically advanced practices of tantra yoga. To learn the Kriya Yoga of Yogananda you need to be initiated by his organization SRF or Ananda in a Kriya Yoga ashram. You will be taught the first kriya, which is basically a set of exercises. Then you will be taught higher kriyas later when your Guru thinks you are ready.

The other way to learn Kriya Yoga is from the Satyananda tradition, from the Bihar school of Yoga. The Bihar school of Yoga publications present many of the Kriya Yoga exercises in a lot of details. There are some variations from the Yogananda tradition, but they more or less the same.

Another way is to search online, there are some resources online which teach you the Kriya exercises. AYP is a good starting point.

Kriya Yoga basically is an advanced form of Yoga, focussing on Patanjali’s higher limbs off pranayama, pratyahara and dharana. There are a lot of breathing, visualization and concentration exercises which directly work on the chakras. You must know the exact locations of the chakras because the exercises involve sending and revolving prana around them. This requires being very sensitive to prana. Initially, one just uses visualization, until one can feel the movements of prana and the chakras vividly.

#26

I can only speak for my area, U.S., Northeast, Small town in upstate NY to be exact. Most people who have an interest in getting some exercise have two obstacles; one is time and the other is money. If they can afford a gym membership or a yoga membership they then have to find an hour or two each day out of a very busy day; work, kids, responsibilities etc. What I have seen regarding yoga (and most men) is that when they find this hour and go to a yoga class that Hums, sits, relaxes, meditates, a little stretching, they will never come back. And worse, they then believe every yoga class is that way. “Wasted an hour for the last time!” Come to my or another hot or power yoga class (for ex) and they get Yoga, and in the midst of the yoga, they end up with a tremendous workout which was not expected. They often say; ?that was yoga?? In the past, in the east, it wasn?t used as a part of a day, an hour, it WAS the day, the life. Just ain?t that way here. People, who want to work out, will come to yoga consistently if they are getting what they need in that regard. IMO.

#27

Well, that really isn’t Yoga then. It is just asanas, which is just one limb(lower limb) of Yoga. Asanas by themselves are not Yoga. I don’t think we should throw away what Yoga has been traditionally for centuries, just become some ignorant people in the West think stretching is Yoga.

Yoga is a spiritual path, for basically people who are seeking spiritual realization. Yama, niyama, asana and pranayama, and pratyahara, dharana, dhyana and samadhi are tools to faciliate this. Moreover one needs to graduate eventually from the lower limbs to the higher limbs of meditation. If somebody thinks that meditation is a waste of time, then they should not even be doing Yoga. Yoga eventually leads to pure meditation. The asnas are only there in order to make your body flexible enough so you can sit in meditation comfortably.

#28

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;68864]Well, that really isn’t Yoga then. [B]Says who ?[/B]

Yoga is a spiritual path, for basically people who are seeking spiritual realization. Yama, niyama, asana and pranayama, and pratyahara, dharana, dhyana and samadhi are tools to faciliate this. Moreover one needs to graduate eventually from the lower limbs to the higher limbs of meditation. If somebody thinks that meditation is a waste of time, then they should not even be doing Yoga. Yoga eventually leads to pure meditation. The asnas are only there in order to make your body flexible enough so you can sit in meditation comfortably.

Then we disagree, here where I live people want yoga and a workout. The classes that are as you describe have 2 or 3 people participating. Work yoga, full classes. It’s a choice.

You meditate in yoga class, I move. Good for me, good for you !!

#29

I have difficulty visualizing ‘limbs’ of yoga. This invokes images of branches of a tree, or tentacles of an octopus, where each limb operates independently from each other (although part of a whole).

It’s much easier to see yoga as a house with 8 rooms. For many in the west AND east, the Asana room is the one most recognized at first blush as a room - the door, the handle, the way into the house. In that room, there are many furnishings and places to sit and hang out. Eventually, I begin to recognize the other doors leading to the other rooms, and I may feel the pull to explore the house further, or I stay in the Asana room. In any case, I still reside in the house of yoga. :slight_smile:

#30

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;68858]Yes, Kriya Yoga comes from the lineage of Yogananda. However, Kriya Yoga really speaking is basically advanced practices of tantra yoga. To learn the Kriya Yoga of Yogananda you need to be initiated by his organization SRF or Ananda in a Kriya Yoga ashram. You will be taught the first kriya, which is basically a set of exercises. Then you will be taught higher kriyas later when your Guru thinks you are ready.

The other way to learn Kriya Yoga is from the Satyananda tradition, from the Bihar school of Yoga. The Bihar school of Yoga publications present many of the Kriya Yoga exercises in a lot of details. There are some variations from the Yogananda tradition, but they more or less the same.

Another way is to search online, there are some resources online which teach you the Kriya exercises. AYP is a good starting point.

Kriya Yoga basically is an advanced form of Yoga, focussing on Patanjali’s higher limbs off pranayama, pratyahara and dharana. There are a lot of breathing, visualization and concentration exercises which directly work on the chakras. You must know the exact locations of the chakras because the exercises involve sending and revolving prana around them. This requires being very sensitive to prana. Initially, one just uses visualization, until one can feel the movements of prana and the chakras vividly.[/QUOTE]

Surya - What I greatly enjoy from my home practice is related to breathing and movement that is sensitive to what you point to with sending/revolving prana. (Hard to get that in a public yoga class, which I enjoy for different reasons). Anyway, I would appreciate your suggestions of a Bihar School publication (my schedule won’t allow for going to an Yogananda ashram, but works well for a book, which I can supplement with a private teacher) that is helpful with kriya yoga (I’d like to incorporate that in my home practice). Also, could you please let me know what is AYP, as I am not familiar with that? Thanks.

All - If this topic is too far from the original post, I am happy to have it go in a new post.

#31

The tradition of Yoga. Again I will repeat Yoga has always been a spiritual path for the purpose of spiritual realization. This is not going to change just because some ignorant Westerners think Yoga is just asanas.

B.K.S Iyengar, the founder of Iyengar/Ashtanga Yoga, which is focussed on the asanas, also calls any kind of Yoga that only consists of asanas to be un-yoga.

Then we disagree, here where I live people want yoga and a workout. The classes that are as you describe have 2 or 3 people participating. Work yoga, full classes. It’s a choice.

You meditate in yoga class, I move. Good for me, good for you !!

Your not really disagreeing with me, you are disagreeing with the centuries old tradition of Yoga. The principles of Yoga was laid by Patanjali in 200BCE and there he defined what Yoga was, “The cessation of the modifications or waves of the mind, to achieive realization of the self” Since then, Yoga has developed exactly along those lines, as a science of self-realization. It has adhered strongly to Patanjali’s principles. As far as asanas are concerned, they are there only for the purpose of making the body fit for higher practices of meditation. This is what the Yoga sutras states and it is also what the most major text on asanas Hathayoga Pradapika states - they are only there to faciliate meditation.

Again, I don’t think we should throw away centuries of tradition and development in Yoga, just because some ignorant Westerners think Yoga is just a work out :wink: It is their ignorance vs 2000+ years of history of Yoga.
Yoga has always been a spiritual path. There is simply no deying this unless you want to look like an ignoramus.

#32

“The cessation of the modifications or waves of the mind, to achieive realization of the self”

Again, I don’t think we should throw away centuries of tradition and development in Yoga, just because some ignorant Westerners think Yoga is just a work out :wink: It is their ignorance vs 2000+ years of history of Yoga.
Yoga has always been a spiritual path. There is simply no deying this unless you want to look like an ignoramus.

There are many what I call “seekers” in yoga, universe this/that. I’m found, and do not seek.

Ignorance it is; doYoga !!

#33

[QUOTE=guitar_yogi;68871]Surya - What I greatly enjoy from my home practice is related to breathing and movement that is sensitive to what you point to with sending/revolving prana. (Hard to get that in a public yoga class, which I enjoy for different reasons). Anyway, I would appreciate your suggestions of a Bihar School publication (my schedule won’t allow for going to an Yogananda ashram, but works well for a book, which I can supplement with a private teacher) that is helpful with kriya yoga (I’d like to incorporate that in my home practice). Also, could you please let me know what is AYP, as I am not familiar with that? Thanks.

All - If this topic is too far from the original post, I am happy to have it go in a new post.[/QUOTE]

Sorry for this late response, I have been a bit busy. I don’t think another topic is necessary, unless you want to discuss Kriya Yoga in more detail.

The publications from BSY I can recommend on Kriya Yoga are: Kriya Yoga, Dharana, Pranayama and Sure ways to self realization.

AYP stands for Advanced Yoga Practice. It is a web site online shares many advanced yoga practices. One of them is Kundalini breathing, which is a major Kriya practice.

#34

[QUOTE=FlexPenguin;68869]I have difficulty visualizing ‘limbs’ of yoga. This invokes images of branches of a tree, or tentacles of an octopus, where each limb operates independently from each other (although part of a whole).

It’s much easier to see yoga as a house with 8 rooms. For many in the west AND east, the Asana room is the one most recognized at first blush as a room - the door, the handle, the way into the house. In that room, there are many furnishings and places to sit and hang out. Eventually, I begin to recognize the other doors leading to the other rooms, and I may feel the pull to explore the house further, or I stay in the Asana room. In any case, I still reside in the house of yoga. :)[/QUOTE]

I quite like this house analogy, I can see where you are going with this. Yes, ‘limbs’ is probably a confusing translation. ‘Anga’ is closer to the meaning ‘parts’

Yoga basically refers to what we now call in psychology self-actualization(Maslow) In the broader picture everything works towards together achieiving this final goal, including basic necessities like food, water and shelter(the first stage in Maslow’s pyramid) However, if somebody is only just looking after their basic needs of food, water and shelter, we couldn’t really say that are working towards self-actualization. Rather than food, water and shelter being a means to the end of achieiving self-actualization, it becomes an end in itself. Similarly, those have made asanas an end in itself are not reallly doing Yoga anymore, they are doing physical exercises. In that regard asanas are not all different from any other physical exercises. If the main objective is to just keep fit and be flexible, there are many ways of acheiving this, without asanas.

But Yoga is not about being fit and flexible, it is about self-realization. The summon bonnum of life(moksha/liberation/enlightenment) So if somebody says to me that Yoga is only a workout, I just see that as just basic ignorance about what Yoga is. The chances are these people know little to nothing about its philosophy and history. A basic primer on the history and philosophy of Yoga would dispell this ignorance.

The parts of Yoga are not really standalone, because they all work in service of the final goal of yoga: self-realization. Really, there are only two parts of Yoga, each part is subdivided into 4 parts. The first part is the external part(yama, niyama, asana, pranayama) The succcesful practice of the external part leads to the second part, the internal practice(pratyhara, dharana, dhyana and samadhi) The succesful practice of the internal part leads to the goal of Yoga.

Hatha Yoga deals with the first part of Yoga, and recognises that it only a means to the second part. Meditation deals with the second part of Yoga. So even in the case of Hatha Yoga, just asanas is not even Hatha Yoga, because it is only 1/4th of Hatha Yoga(omitting yama, niyama and pranayama) and it is not Yoga, because it is only 1/16th of Yoga(omitting yamas and niyamas)

A lot of spiritual practices in general are incomplete, because they do not include every aspect, even if their aim is Yoga. Bhakti Yoga and Jnana Yoga omit 1/8th of Yoga; Meditation by itself omits 1/2 of Yoga. Kriya Yoga is a good compromise because it includes all parts of Yoga(with special emphasis on pranayama)

#35

Actually, it would more be more accurate to say Bhakti and Jnana Yoga omits 3/4th of Yoga in that they focus on the first two parts: yama and niyama(I only included yamas in my count in the last post and realised the word “omits” was used wrong :D)