your onto something but there’s just a little more . . . clarification.
and no the witnessing consciousness is not the Lord/Ishvara . . . at all.
I am not your guru. I will preach at you because you need it. I can tell [I]you[/I] what you need to do to get your real guru.[/QUOTE]
I don’t need your advice, thank you very much 
Please find somebody else to play guru with. I am not interested.
[QUOTE=Avatar186;74977]What makes us different?!?! The things we self identify with. Music thoughts ideas feeling. That which is without self identification knows all the desires/world but is not the Desiree/self identifyer.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, good point. What makes me different to you? Lets think of some things:
I have a different name
I have a different body
I have different parents
I have different interests
I have different circumstances
I have a different background
I have different memories
I have different knowledge
I have different beliefs, values and attitudes
I have different friends
I have different preferences
I was born at a different time in a different place
I have different experiences
Indeed, there are many differences one can think of, but anything we can think of all comes under the category of prakriti consisting of the gunas(including all matter, space, time, energy, mind) in the Samkhya-Yoga system. None of these things belong to purushas. Hence, why there is no single thing to distinguish one purusha from another. Logically every purusha must be identical.
So we can see that Samkhya-Yoga logically agrees with the concept of an identical higher self in every person. It uses various names for this: witnessing consciousness(drasthu) ishvara(supreme controller) and purusha(soul)
There can be no question of there being many purushas, because purushas are outside of time, space and causation. There cannot be ‘many’ nor can they be defined, divided and pinpointed. Patanjali simply says the seer is is simply just the power of seeing. The only quality of consciousness is ‘seeing’ in Yoga. Consciousness simply just aware of all. It is not a doer. It simply is pure awareness. All that takes place in awareness is defined as matter in Yoga, including thoughts, feelings, emotions, desires etc
i may mis understand the workds. prakriti is the self identified. " the reflection inside the mirror"
purusha is the self identifier. " the mirror itself"
you can get to the mirror, by getting rid of the reflection.
you can get to the self identifyer, by ridding yourself of self identifications.
you can get to pure awarness, by seperating awarness from its distractions.
the lake reflects perfectly when ripples cease.
in short. you are pretty correct i believe your explanation, if i understand it right is awesome.
simple as knowing the nature of shiva and shakti.
or in more words, human nature and the primal spirit.
they are opposites it seems.
lower self is made up of changing self identifications. " the reflection"
higher self is the unchanging mirror. the self identifyer.
when you forget one, you become the other.
even better, subjugate human nature " reflection/self identifications"
with the primale spirit " unchanging mirror/self identifyer"
and then circulate them, untill the lower distills into the higher. darkness into light. the yang man.
in even simpler words.
the condition of the mind rests upon the heart of the body.
the heart/body is the eater of bitter and sweet.
the mind without ripples is the pure mirror without reflection.
when one moves, the other moves.
unfortunatly being ever linked. you either must seperate mind and heart.
or
attain a supreme state of stillness within mind and heart.
or, circulate the heart into the mind.
these seem to be the only ways of overcoming.
Awesome Avatar, were on the same page
If you are not already familiar with the Samkhya terminology like Prakriti and Purusha, I will clarify:
Prakriti simply means the source of all of material creation. The very substance from which all things arise. Hence why prakriti is given a feminine gender, because it is like the womb of all creation. Hence why in the Gita Krishna says, “It is I who become spirit and impregnate prakriti” Whatever you see in creation from microscopic to macroscopic, including the body, senses, mind, intellect, ego is all prakriti. They all have are made of gunas, the fundamental forces which are always in a state of change, hence why matter is always transforming and evolving.
Purusha means the conscious witness or observer. It is given a masculine gender, because purusha does not create anything, it simply observes and it is the act of purusha’s observation that brings creation into existence. It is not made of the gunas, so it is unchanging. The only quality of purusha is seeing/witnessing/awareness. It is because of this that purusha is always independent of prakriti.
The trouble is that when the purusha becomes misidentified with prakriti and starts to think it is the products of prakriti(matter, time, space, energy, mind, sense, ego) This process is undone through Yoga, whereby we can remove all these false identifications and realize purusha completely.
Avatar,
? A new insight. Amroli.I love the aghoris for they love reality!
amroli says the first of the stream contains nothing but the thin. Spirit without body. Midstream contains what u want. Do not drink the last for it contains the waste. In drinking my tall can. I notice the first gives no buzz. The middle gives buzz with clarity. The last sucks one into heavyness/turbidness for that is its nature. ?
There is a reason why in the yogic sciences such methods were always transmitted secretly from master to disciple. Because if you are involved in them without the proper understanding, it can create more damage than good. A method like Amaroli should not just be practiced by anybody. It should be practiced by a yogi who has already gone through much work in purification of the nadis and the energies of the subtle body. The quality of ones urine differs according to ones lifestyle. If you are living a lifestyle which is in such a way that you are drinking alcohol, smoking, taking drugs, eating foods which are filled with toxins and harmful materials, then it will be reflected in your urine. In such conditions, practicing amaroli can be dangerous to your health.
If one has undergone a thorough purification of the system through such methods as asanas, pranayam, kriyas, mudras, and bandhas - in such a way that the quality of ones urine also becomes purified - then it may be safer to practice amaroli. Even then, this by itself is not enough. You should also know when to practice such a technique. If you practice amaroli at different times of the day when there are different changes happening in the life energies of the body and your nervous system, it will have different effects.
"The witnessing consciousness is that which Is the “same” in all people. "
Even this witnessing consciousness is just a side effect of something else within you which is far more essential. Those who mistake The Witness as their original nature have been projecting a limtiing quality as though it were the ultimate. Ones original nature is simply inexpressible - being beyond all limiting qualities, identities, forms. By thinking it to be the Witness, you are imposing boundaries upon it. A witness requires a division in the mind between that which witnesses and that which is witnessed. Without the witnessed, the witness cannot exist - even if it means witnessing itself.
There is a certain statement by Lao Tzu, that the Tao that can be named is not the Eternal Tao. When you abandon just about everything that your mind can grasp onto, even the very idea of nothingness, which is also another limiting quality, what will you call this ?
Exactly amirmourad.
Except. ALL substances that enter the body are impure. For all substances that enter the body are combustible. Thus perishable. Thus imperfect. Thus impure.
you see. amiroli is not a specific technique. it is an understanding.
For even in distillation. The lighter thin part of a fluid rises first for it requires less heat. the thick and heavy rises last for it requires more it as it is heavy.
In the consumption of urine. it does not matter what time nor what day nor what diet. Unless you are the transformer, you are ingesting urine in hopes to be transformed by it.
In concerns to all other things. this is simply universal knowledge that can be used in as many ways as you can find.
simply purifying the body and self is not enough. then you are simply as burned ashes bleached white by fire,clean, yet containing nothing. you must revivify. fatten yourself with the spirit, then dry yourself with fire. until you fix the volatile and volatilize the fixed. moisten the dry, and dry the moisten. then you are not only pure, but sublime.
As well! your second post was exactly correct!
for " I AM" is the simplest way to describe the original nature. the Tao. The Purusha
For I AM, is a self identification. and in even simpler terms. it is I EXIST.
Take that self identification away. and you will merge with the eternal Tao.
What IS the eternal tao? we cannot know. for we cannot fathom. Those who KNOW are. Can one merge with the eternal and return to his former state? i do not know. Can one have a personal relationship with the eternal? I have heard. but i do not know.
When one comes to the point of having no self identifications except I AM/I EXIST
Then one is free from all things in reality. Except existence itself. What is beyond existence? The eternal.
when one enters the eternal, do you still exist? do you exist, yet not. aware,but not. is it the true balance? the true uniting of opposites into oneness. or is it non existence?
I personally do not know as of yet.
Is it, it cannot be said to be " this or that" for it is niether, for it is both.
the yin and yang is the perfect balance. for it is a counter balance and a balance. most see the number 4. it is in reality the number 5. for they do not see it is a whole.
1=2
2=1
that is 3
2=4
4=2
that is 5. The perfect balance. If that is the tao. That is why it is indescribable. Because even though it would be this perfect balance, it would not be!
It would be merging with that which never ends.
for now you have the perfect balance 5. yet its opposite. and now these themselves become parts in a larger yin yang. and so on and so on. atom to planet. planet to atom. but are we an atom to someone els? is an atom a planet to another? dunno. but you get the point. ETERNAL is unfathomable. : P 
Apologies for the personal rant.
[QUOTE=AmirMourad;75066]"The witnessing consciousness is that which Is the “same” in all people. "
Even this witnessing consciousness is just a side effect of something else within you which is far more essential. Those who mistake The Witness as their original nature have been projecting a limtiing quality as though it were the ultimate. Ones original nature is simply inexpressible - being beyond all limiting qualities, identities, forms. By thinking it to be the Witness, you are imposing boundaries upon it. A witness requires a division in the mind between that which witnesses and that which is witnessed. Without the witnessed, the witness cannot exist - even if it means witnessing itself.
There is a certain statement by Lao Tzu, that the Tao that can be named is not the Eternal Tao. When you abandon just about everything that your mind can grasp onto, even the very idea of nothingness, which is also another limiting quality, what will you call this ?[/QUOTE]
I am simply stating what Yoga says: Then the witnessing consciousness is revealed.
What is beyond the witnessing consciousness is the subject of Vedanta: Brahman. However, it unnecessarily complicates life to even think beyond and nor does it help knowing. In Vedanta the prerequisite to its study if the mastery of Yoga itself.
I think questions about what happens after reaching liberation are irrelevant. You are effectively asking what happens at the end of time, and ones mind cannot answer those questions.
Yay everyone is in agreement though.
meaning their is mutual understanding
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;75042]I don’t need your advice, thank you very much Please find somebody else to play guru with. I am not interested.[/QUOTE]
Rebuke the foolish and he shall hate you. Rebuke the wise and he loves you more.
Yes but it is how one is rebuked. It is (how) one corrects another.
Correct with truth. Speak truth. But truth is just as important as how one speaks it.
We are all teachers and students.be both but be neither.
A teacher makes statements through questions. Thus he is never above nor below.
A student askes questions through statements. Thus he too is never above or below. Never assumeone position. Or another or u deprive yourself of its opposite.
Correct but do not be the teacher. Ask but do not be the student.
In this. When the foolish is corrected, it is not you who is correcting, for u asked a question impersonally. Now the fool thinks of the question. But you are not its sorce.
Do the same to the wise. U will never be praised nor loved for this. Nor hated. For the correction is impersonal.
"I often ask questions I already know the answers too,but I do not ask expecting to receive my answer.but I can lead u to my answer through asking questions. As long as my answer is truth. Anyway do not be offended for I am you!
Namaste. I bow do the divine in you it means?
meaning I bow to that which is without self identification that exists within me and you.
[QUOTE=Avatar186;75082]Yay everyone is in agreement though.
meaning their is mutual understanding[/QUOTE]
Not everyone is in agreement. Surya Deva has made the statement that yoga is nothing but a practical psychology, so now he needs to twist the meaning of the yoga sutras in order to make them fit his pre-determined conclusion. This is exactly the wrong approach, but not unlike many who have gone before him. This is why the true meaning of the yoga sutras is so obscure, because so many people have put their own spin on it, the intent of the original authors is hidden under layer upon layer of dross.
The Samkhya-Yoga literature is very clear. They believed in the multiplicity of purusas. This is one of the central tenets of the philosophy. In denying this and obscuring the meaning, Surya Deva reveals himself to be no different than all of the other charlatans. However Surya Deva can be forgiven because of his hindu background. It has been the practice of hindus to twist samkhya-yoga into vedanta for a very long time. Surya Deva is just continuing the tradition.
[QUOTE=Avatar186;75115]In this. When the foolish is corrected, it is not you who is correcting, for u asked a question impersonally. Now the fool thinks of the question. But you are not its sorce.
Do the same to the wise. U will never be praised nor loved for this. Nor hated. For the correction is impersonal.
"I often ask questions I already know the answers too,but I do not ask expecting to receive my answer.but I can lead u to my answer through asking questions. As long as my answer is truth. Anyway do not be offended for I am you!
Namaste. I bow do the divine in you it means?
meaning I bow to that which is without self identification that exists within me and you.[/QUOTE]
No offense taken. I see your point and I actually do try to apply that methodology when I feel situation calls for it. Not one keys fits all locks as you very well know.
[QUOTE=Asuri;75205]Not everyone is in agreement. Surya Deva has made the statement that yoga is nothing but a practical psychology, so now he needs to twist the meaning of the yoga sutras in order to make them fit his pre-determined conclusion. This is exactly the wrong approach, but not unlike many who have gone before him. This is why the true meaning of the yoga sutras is so obscure, because so many people have put their own spin on it, the intent of the original authors is hidden under layer upon layer of dross.
The Samkhya-Yoga literature is very clear. They believed in the multiplicity of purusas. This is one of the central tenets of the philosophy. In denying this and obscuring the meaning, Surya Deva reveals himself to be no different than all of the other charlatans. However Surya Deva can be forgiven because of his hindu background. It has been the practice of hindus to twist samkhya-yoga into vedanta for a very long time. Surya Deva is just continuing the tradition.[/QUOTE]
Could you elaborate on the differences you find between Samkyha and vedanta? I must confess my opinion. That there is no real difference between the two essentially, and that any differences are matters of misconception, and those misconceptions have become mass hysteria.
I really don’t have time to get into all of the differences between the two. Anyone who has studied samkhya philosophy at all should know that one of the major differences is that samkhya believes in the multiplicity of purusas (selfs). That is no misconception, there is a definite difference in the philosophies. Some try to explain away the difference with logic, but their logic is faulty.
If one believes in the doctrine of liberation, as the hindus do, then it is necessary to also believe in the individual self, because one self cannot be both liberated and not liberated at the same time. The self is either bound (to material nature) or free. If there is only one ultimate self, if he is liberated, then all must be liberated, if he is bound, then all must be bound. So which doctrine do you choose, liberation or one self?
They say that, since the purusa is different from the qualities of material nature, that there is nothing to distinguish one from the other, therefore there must be only one purusa. But this logic fails to consider that the qualities that distinguish one from another are simply beyond our ability to understand and express. The fact of life is that different individuals are born into different circumstances, they have different abilities and talents, their lives take different courses, as do their deaths. To assert that this is all a matter of misconception is to render life devoid of meaning.
[QUOTE=Avatar186;74923]
You have a mirror, and the reflection inside that mirror. This is man. In man ishvara is the mirror, the reflection is the world. The mirror has forgotten its true nature for it self identifies with the reflection!
Your true nature is the bird that observes. But this bird has forgotten itself,it self identifies with the bird that eats of the bitter and sweet. Man was made in gods image. Meaning we are not God. We are a reflection of ishvara. [/QUOTE]
Actually this isn’t bad for something that you came up with yourself. In samkhya philosophy, the mirror is called [I]buddhi[/I]. In general, this is the power of ascertainment or discernment, it is the highest evolute of material nature in man. Man perceives the world through the senses, which are controlled and coordinated through the lower mind (called [I]manas[/I]) and finally reflected in budhhi. What the self experiences is the reflection. Usually the buddhi is directed outward, towards the world. But what happens when the self sees itself reflected in buddhi? This is the process of yoga, to turn the attention of the mind inward, toward the self. But in order to navigate this successfully, one must understand the levels of material nature that one has to pass through. It is very common to mistake some part of the material nature for the self.
The yoga sutras discusses this using the analogy of a crystal or gem that reflects the world around it. One has to remove the various things that color the reflection until the crystal reflects clearly. Then real insight and understanding can occur.
The imagery used in the Svetasvatara Upanishad (the two birds on the same tree) actually does refer to a higher self and a lower self. If this agrees with your personal beliefs and experience, that is fine. But one must understand clearly that the philosophy expressed in Svetasvatara and that expressed in the yoga sutras are not the same. Historically Svetasvatara is older and is clearly rejected in later samkhya literature. The yoga sutras is a samkhya document.