Yoga Myths

Yoga Discussion General Yoga
#21

to whom he sells $220 workshops.

Do you want me to teach for free ? I can do so, but I may starve myself. I am already almost starving while teaching. It is my own understanding that is necessary to charge people, not just for the sake of being able to provide space and facilities for students. But whatever is given for free is rarely ever appreciated, it is always something which is taken for granted. Whenever you put a price upon it - you create psychological value for it. I have always found it something strange that people feel that teachings should be given for free. It may have been convenient if you are living in the Himalayas, isolated from the society. But if you are living in the society, then you will have to work according to its language and its ways.

#22

[QUOTE=AmirMourad;62880]…[/QUOTE]
Charvaka is not just atheist or hedonist, but also completely sceptic towards everything else than once’s own direct perception. This continuous scepticism is not even part of Buddhism.

Do you want me to teach for free ? I can do so, but I may starve myself…
You shouldn’t be teaching in the first place, for free or for money.

#23

Sarva,

“Charvaka is not just atheist or hedonist”

Whatever the case, if you are investigating into things out of your own intelligence, then you will neither have attraction nor aversion.

"You shouldn’t be teaching in the first place, for free or for money. "

Ok.

#24

[QUOTE=Sarvamaṅgalamaṅgalā;62894]Charvaka is not just atheist or hedonist, but also completely sceptic towards everything else than once’s own direct perception. This continuous scepticism is not even part of Buddhism.

You shouldn’t be teaching in the first place, for free or for money.[/QUOTE]

how’s this?

#25

“But whatever is given for free is rarely ever appreciated, it is always something which is taken for granted.”

A more accurate statement might be “whatever I am given for free I rarely ever appreciate and take it for granted.”

#26

Gori,

Understanding the message, one does not feel the need to be fixated upon words.

#27

I can honestly say that some of the things in yoga are against what I should do as a jew. For instance, singing mantras about bowing before Patanjali makes me feel guilty because the cardinal rule of judaism is our god is one and one only, and we should never bow before anything else.

That being said, I do love yoga. I practice yoga with all my heart, even when sometimes this incompatibility puts me in a difficult position. Yoga IS part of a religion. Some people try to erase that fact to make it more palatable to us westerners, but the truth about yoga is way deeper than that.

To those who think yoga opposes the abrahamic religions, this is a half-truth.

Both hinduism and judaism are as distant and as close as two religions can be. The differences are obvious, but the similarities are striking. They both followed the same movements as they grew with humanity, and because they are both so ancient, they encompass many things other more modern religions ignore (such as diet, daily practices, the abundance and importance of the sacred scriptures etc).

I will give one incredible example of the similarities between both. We all know the importance of breathing in yoga. For us jews there are 3 levels or components of the soul: nefesh, ruah and neshama. Nefesh means life and its the basic force present in every living creature (similar to prana). Ruah means “breath” in hebrew and it is the second level of the soul (its kind of like conscience or hamsa in hinduism), the final level which is neshama, is the highest part of the soul (the brahma/atman at the heart of all things).

There are a million coincidences and resemblances like this one. They become more evident once you skip the shapes and focus on the essence of both religions. I find it fascinating and encouraging to be able to get to the same place from two very different paths.

#28

I guess ultimately the path ends up being the same one AND the goal.

#29

[QUOTE=panoramix;62517]I supose he did achieve prana vidya for living on just fruits…

[/QUOTE]

What do you mean by prana vidya.

pranic wisdom? How so?

#30

yaya,

“I can honestly say that some of the things in yoga are against what I should do as a jew. For instance, singing mantras about bowing before Patanjali makes me feel guilty because the cardinal rule of judaism is our god is one and one only, and we should never bow before anything else.”

Yes, but it is also said in your religion that “God” is omnipresent. If “God” is omnipresent, what is the problem of bowing before a rock, a tree, a bird, a snake, or a human being ?
But the thing is, as with most organized religions - one picks and chooses what appeals to oneself according to one’s likes and dislikes. Even in Judaism, there are many words that refer to God in Hebrew, some of which are even female. The word Elohim, for example, is a feminine word.
And along with this - you have various so called “archangels”, which if you look at their names, are supposed to be just aspects of God. Most of them end with the word “El”, which means God. Raphael means “the Healer of God”, Gabriel means the “Strength of God”. Even in your own religion, these are all just different aspects of the one God. They are basically equivalent to the various devas and other entities that have been mentioned in Hinduism.

“For us jews there are 3 levels or components of the soul: nefesh, ruah and neshama. Nefesh means life and its the basic force present in every living creature (similar to prana). Ruah means “breath” in hebrew and it is the second level of the soul (its kind of like conscience or hamsa in hinduism), the final level which is neshama, is the highest part of the soul (the brahma/atman at the heart of all things).”

There is far more to these divisions than what you have mentioned. The Jewish mystics have looked far deeper into this than the mainstream Jews. The Nephesh refers to that part of one’s being which is of instincts or animal nature. The Ruach refers to the intellect, and the Neshamah is that part of one’s being which is closest to one’s original nature. The Nehamah is divided into three parts - one called the Neshamah which is of higher intuition, Chia which is the life force energy, and the Yechidah which is one’s original nature. And the Jewish mytics are fundamentally practicing a kind of yoga - although they are considered as heretics by the mainstream Jews. Because their methods are intended to bring them into a direct perception of what they have called the Yechidah, which is one and the same as “God”. And even their methods are not fundamentally different than those of Tantra Yoga - they will repeat Hebrew mantras, one of the most potent is considered to be “Eheieh” (“I am”), and along with those mantras they will visualize the Hebrew letters (yantras). This combination of mantra and yantra is one of the fundamental technique of Tantra. So if you get into the mystical dimension which has happened in Judaism - you will find tremendous similarities. But that dimension has been condemned by most Jews, just as Sufism, the mystical dimension that has arisen out of Islam, has been condemned by most Muslims.

#31

[QUOTE=AmirMourad;62923]Gori,

Understanding the message, one does not feel the need to be fixated upon words.[/QUOTE]

You didn’t get it. Perhaps YOU do not appreciate things given to you for free, but do not project that same ungratefulness onto others.

Whenever I hear someone say, “people don’t appreciate something unless it has a price tag” - all it tells me is that the person saying that does not appreciate things given to them freely.

There are plenty of us out here who DO.

#32

[QUOTE=AmirMourad;62937]
Yes, but it is also said in your religion that “God” is omnipresent. If “God” is omnipresent, what is the problem of bowing before a rock, a tree, a bird, a snake, or a human being ? [/QUOTE]

See, judaism is 5000 years old. The number of sacred scriptures and interpretations of said scriptures is enough to drive you nuts! So really, you can’t oversimplify it like you are doing right now.

Some rabbis think that this world was created by god, it is not an emanation from god (like in hinduism). In that sense, the idea that god is omnipresent does not mean that he informs everything in reality. Judaism wasn’t traditionally a panentheistic religion. So god is everywhere but not IN everything. In that sense, bowing before a rock is sin.

Later on, the perceptions changed and when the mystics introduced the idea of the interpretation or secret torah, other meanings were attributed to the idea of god. They do believe the world is an emanation of Him (the 10 sephirot, multiple representations of god, etc). Mysticism in judaism is so rich (and dangerous for unlearned folks) that men cannot learn zohar until they are 30 years old and have read everything else. Some orthodox jews consider kabbalah a sacrilegious practice, others hold them in great regard, so, again, its not a black and white issue.

As for the divisions of the soul, everything in judaism has multiple meanings, levels, and paths for understanding. Learning judaism can take you a very long time and tons of commitment, and there are divisions and subdivisions of most important things. So yeah, you could even break the soul into even more categories than the ones you posted, same with the names of god or the representations, etc.

The angels are a completely different topic and it would take a while to discuss it.

But no, essentially, hinduism and judaism have more points in common than the other way around.

#33

Gori,

“Perhaps YOU do not appreciate things given to you for free, but do not project that same ungratefulness onto others.”

It takes a person of tremendous awareness and insight to be able to appreciate anything which is given for free. That is not my projection, it is simply a fact. Man’s programming is so deep and rigid, that even to take a moment to be receptive to the present has become a very rare experience. As long as one has been living out of unconsciousness, then to be awake to the miracle of existence which is closer to you than your own breath, is an impossibility. And that you cannot recognize that man is asleep reflects that you yourself are in a deep sleep - otherwise it would be impossible for you to say such a thing, that there are many people who have gratitude for life. Man is a creature of habit, and out of habit, he has accepted a million and one things for granted, including his own life. Until something is hanging on a thread - as though you can loose it in a flash of a moment, only then does one start to realize what is in front of your own eyes. Otherwise, by now, one would have already come to a contentment which fulfills your being, through and through. And if you have any honesty with yourself - you will be able to see that no matter what you do, no matter what you achieve in the world, it cannot provide anything more than temporary satisfaction. An ancient hunger remains. This is the reality of one’s life - and unless you become absolutely awakened - there is no way beyond it.

#34

yaya,

“you can’t oversimplify it like you are doing right now.”

I have just done what Judaism has been doing for ages. I have picked and chosen according to my liking. One has said that worshiping a tree, or a bird, or an animal, or a human being - is against Judaism, and yet on the other hand your religion has said that God is omnipresent. If God has created the universe, then I do not see how to adore his creation is different than adoring the creator himself. But I can understand why such things have been considered forbidden ideas - because for most Jews - that which has been called “divine” is something lying far far away on the other shore, “God” is some outside agency which has created the universe. And if you consider this a part of Judaism - yoga is certainly against Judaism - because the basic insight of the yogic sciences is that the divine is not separate from your being, it is in fact the very stuff you are made of, it is none other than your original face which has always been your Buddhahood from first to last.

#35

[QUOTE=AmirMourad;62895]

"You shouldn’t be teaching in the first place, for free or for money. "

Ok.[/QUOTE]

Yoga and its use should reach every nook and corner of the globe.
The concept of Guru_Dakshina is very ancient and it is unique to the Indian culture and tradition.

#36

[QUOTE=bjoy;62957]Yoga and its use should reach every nook and corner of the globe.
The concept of Guru_Dakshina is very ancient and it is unique to the Indian culture and tradition.[/QUOTE]

There is nothing wrong with the Indian system of guru dakshina. The problem is with fools who think they are qualified to teach.

#37

Let’s not romanticize the sufis. The sufis have always been soldiers of Islam, spreading Jihad and the Sharia in India. Also, the gnostic texts mention Jesus randomly killing someone out of anger.

Hazrat Shaikh Khwaja Syed Muhammad Muinuddin Chishti was accompanied to Ajmer and Khwaja Qutubuddin to Delhi by Muḥammad Shahabuddin Ghori, famously known as Muḥammad of Ghor. Hazrat Baba Fariduddin Masud Ganjshakar aka Baba Fareed came to Pakpattan (now in Pakistan) and Hazrat Khwaja Nizamuddin Auliya of Dargah Hazarat Nizamuddin came to Delhi accompanying a contingent of the Muslim invaders.

[I]- Islamization of India, Purushottam[/I]

Bengal was not conquered by seventeen Turkish cavaliers (of Bakhtiyar Khalji); but by the barah-auliyas, or twelve legendary Muslim militant saints, the Pirs who cropped up after the seed of Islam had been broadcast in the plains of Bengal.
[I]

  • Prof K R Qanungo[/I]

Fourteenth century happened to be a period of expansion of Muslim authority in Bengal and adjoining territories. A significant part was played in this process by the warrior saints who were eager to take up the cause of any persecuted community. This often resulted [in clash] with the native authority, followed by, almost invariably by annexation.

[I]- The Muslim Community of the Indo-Pakistan Subcontinent, Dr. I H Qureshi[/I]

Whenever a live Hindu fell into the hands of the victorious king he was pounded to bits under the feet of the elephants…

[I]- Amir Khusrau, the famous Sufi Poet writes thus![/I]

According to 14th and 15th century legends, Ismaili propagandist evolved a belief for Hindu converts that Ali, the husband of Fatima, daughter of Prophet Muhammad, was the 10th incarnation of Vishnu, that Adam was another aspect of Siva and that Muhammad was in fact Brahma.
[I]

  • A History of Sufism in India, Athar Abbas Rizvi[/I]

  • Shahid Salar Masood Ghazi was a Sufi who was Mohammad Ghazni’s nephew and persuaded him to destroy the Temple at Somnath. The travelled across India along with his father and a few hundred thousand cavalry, destroying Hindus. Graves were built for those Moslems killed by the defending Hindu armies and some of those are now considered shrines and worshipped devoutly by mostly Hindus!

  • Hazrat Shaikh Khwaja Syed Muhammad Muinuddin Chisti of Ajmer is probably the most well-known Sufi saint in India. The lobby of secularists frequently use his example to paint a picture of Islam as a religion of peace.

It is told that once when he went to perform the pilgrimage to the holy tomb of the Prophet Muhammad, one day from the inside of the pure and blessed tomb a cry came: ‘’Send for Muinuddin.’’ When Muinuddin came to the door he stood there and he saw that presence speak to him. ‘’Muinuddin, you are the essence of my faith; but must go to Hindustan. There is a place called Ajmer, to which one of my sons (descendants) went for a holy war, and now he has become a martyr, and the place has passed again into the hands of infidels. By the grace of your footsteps there, once more shall Islam be made manifest, and the Kafirs be punished by God’s wrath.’’ Accordingly Muinuddin reached Ajmer in Hindustan. There he said: ‘Praise be to God, May he be exalted, for I have gained possession of the property of my brother. Although, at that time there were many temples of idols around the lake, when the Khwaja saw them, he said: ‘If God and His Prophet so will, it will not be long before I raze to the ground these idol-temples. This is followed by tales of Khwaja coming over those Hindu deities and teachers who were strongly opposed to his settling down there.

[I]- The shrine and cult of Munuddin Chishti of Ajmer, P M Curie
[/I]
As an author notes:

“It appears that shorn of miracles the story simply suggests that Khwaja came to India determined to eradicated idolatry and paganism and establish Islam in its place. He met with a lot of resistance from the local governor of Rai Pithaura (Prithviraj Chauhan) besides resistance from Rai Pithaura himself. With the help of the immense treasure at his disposal and having converted many gullible Hindus to his faith, he became strong enough to invite Rai Pithaura to convert to Islam. Having failed to persuade him, Khwaja sent a message inviting Sultan Shihabuddin Ghori to attack India. Shihabuddin made unsuccessful invasions. Rai Pithaura always allowed him to go back unmolested after his defeat. Ultimately, however, he defeated Prithvi Raj Chauhan and killed him”.

All were ignorant of Allah and his prophet. None had seen the Kaba. None had heard of the greatness of Allah. After Muinuddin arrived in India, “Because of his sword, instead of idols and temples, there are Mosques, Mimbars and Mihrabs in the land of unbelief. In the land where the sayings of the idolaters were heard, there is now the sound of Allah-O-Akbar.

[I]- Siyar al-arifin[/I]

The Sultan forgetting all his royal duties took pleasure day and night in destroying idols. He destroyed idols of Martand, Vishnu, Ishan, Chakravarthy and Tripureshwar. Not a forest, a village or a city escaped where the Turushk and his minister Suha passed…
[I]

  • Kalhana in his Rajataramgini on Sikandar Butshikan[/I]
#38

bjoy,

“Yoga and its use should reach every nook and corner of the globe. The concept of Guru_Dakshina is very ancient and it is unique to the Indian culture and tradition.”

If you really want the science to reach every nook and corner of the globe, then you will have to understand that it has to be approached as a science, stripped of all of the belief systems that are revolving around it. Initially - this is how the earliest masters had approached it. They did not have any initiations, nor was there any guru, simply because there was nobody else there to teach them. Whenever you are exploring into any area for the first time, there is nobody that is there to teach. And they had to investigate as deeply as possible into their own being, their initiations were an inward initiation. And this inward initiation is the very essence of the path. If you mistake these outer initiations as the essential matter, you have missed the whole point. All of those outer initiations are just a means to try and trigger an inner process. That inner process can be triggered in many ways, with or without a guru. There are even some gurus who declare that a mantra can only be useful if it is initiated by a guru. If that is the case, then how did the earliest masters make use of their mantras ? You can say from their gurus. But what about the gurus of those gurus ? You can again, say from their gurus. But eventually there will come a point where you will find that a mantra was something which was discovered entirely by oneself. A mantra, such as Om, was never repeated originally. It was heard, deep in meditation. It is not exactly Om, it is more of a humming sound which cannot be reproduced by human voice. The verbal Om is just a gross expression of this sound. And it was only much later, once certain things were discovered alone in the alone, that an effort was made to make it more available to others. This is simple logic. So if one says that a mantra is just useful if it is initiated by a guru, this is just clinging to a dogmatic belief. Yes, a mantra can be tremendously powerful if it is received through an initiation, but to insist that that is the only way - is just dogmatic. If there has been anything that has been demonstrated well in the history of the yogic sciences - it is that there is no absolute method towards enlightenment, there are only relative skillful means. And if you are flexible and vast - then you will be able to assist others according to their unique situation and not according to tradition.

#39

[QUOTE=AmirMourad;62981]And if you are flexible and vast - then you will be able to assist others according to their unique situation and not according to tradition.[/QUOTE]

? means, I?ll be inventing new ways to eliminate disease, extinction of desire and suffering and individual consciousness, toward enlightenment and so on. Fine, then I must coin my word and not drag the term ?yoga? in the vast, if I?m flexible enough. Yoga is a traditional, miracle.