[QUOTE=The Scales;53973]
THAT TART![/QUOTE]
Why did the word 'tantric' just pop in to my head??
If that’s not fundamentally spiritual, then I’m missing the point entirely 
Above is a link to spirit voyage website that gives quite a different view of what happened at the festival, including a response from Shiva herself. Even those in attendance and the event organizers confirmed she was wearing long pants and tee shirt.
An age old dilemma I’m afraid. I can understand purists wanting to maintain yoga in its purist sense, but the very meaning of Yoga is to Yoke or Join. So it is natural for yoga to evolve and spread (Yoke) with the west. While yoga should be practiced with respect, does it really matter what you wear? Is someone less spiritual or yoga-like if the rise on their pants is too low?
And even though that picture comes up when googling Shiva Rea, it doesn’t look like her at all.
Well, it could be said that women being forbidden to practice yoga by Hindu authority for thousands of years is a perversion of yoga.
The problems in yoga today aren’t confined to ‘east’ and ‘west,’ and aren’t anything new. A bigger problem that needs to addressed is the fact that many Indian yoga teachers, quite simply can’t control themselves around women. So if Yogi Ram feels inclined to go on a quest to wipe out the perversions in the practice, maybe he could start there.
The yoga festival in Risikesh is a very shallow affair, lacking depth and sincerity. Its tourism, and makes the Parmarth corporation plenty of money. But this is something that happens all over the world.
[QUOTE=YogiAdam;53971]Actually I’m beginning to realize what I do may not actually be ‘yoga’. But unfortunately there is no such thing as ‘asanas’ There’s no asana classes or asana forums. I guess you could say I do asana instead of yoga… but in Australia… that’s what they call yoga anyway.[/QUOTE]
Dear Yogi Adam,
There is a Sanskrit term in what you are doing, as you said “it may not be yoga”, a more suitable term may be ‘bhoga’ – which means worldly experience. Don’t they sounded similar with “ga” at the end?
So for differentiation we have bhoga forums, bhoga teachers…
Parmarth Niketan blast their ridiculous classes out on loudspeakers at high volume, disturbing the other ashrams in the area, some of which might be a little more sincere in their practice. Its tourism, and makes the Parmarth corporation plenty of money. They have no problem glamorizing yoga.
To focus on ‘skimpy clothing’ is ludicrous. Saying that, women must be aware that there is a high degree of sexism in India, and when practicing its best to cover up. Its ridiculous and I’m highly against it. But it avoids problems.
I think the deeper issue here is the new age bastardization of Yoga, leading to all kinds of bizaree Yogas appearing like Yingyang Yoga, Hot Yoga, Christian Yoga, Kabbalah Yoga etc.
Rather than preserving the traditional Yoga as the science of spiritual development it was suppose to be, and thus to be taken as a serious discipline. Like Kung fu is for self-defense. It is diluted, mixed with all sorts of stuff, weakening the discipline. Hence, I think it is important that there exists an official regulation of Yoga, to stop people from misapplying it.
I also agree that Shiva Rea should have respected the civil code of a place like Rishikesh, where dressing as she is use to is considered indecent exposure. Similarly, Snatam Kaur should not be saying “Alleua” in a Hindu city. It is like me going to the Mecca and saying, “Har har Mahadeva” or going to the Vatican and saying, “Allah-u-Akbar” Just because you’re a yogi does not exempt you from respecting the civil code of a place.
Whenever you get into a discussion of what people “should be doing”, then the issue becomes moot. People will do what they wish to do. If, by your judgment, it is a bastardization of your beliefs, it is ‘too bad, so sad’ - as regretful as that may seem to the believer.
It is the always the wise choice to preserve your beliefs and practices in your own way, and not project on to other beings. That way, you can only disappoint yourself.
When the history of Yoga will be written 25 years from now, the present-day wild adaptation will be referred as the ‘initial phase of revolution – the Liberal phase.’ (ref: the French Revolution). Yoga practitioners all over the world are growing in numbers and trying to pull Yoga out of the traditionalists’ closets. But, once they have it, they don’t know what to do with it. Since they haven’t acquired the Yoga knowledge from self-realization, or even from a real Master, the real potential is never known or appreciated.
A conveyor-belt production of Yoga teachers has proliferated Yoga but it has lost direction and left it defined too narrowly. That a one-year infant in Yoga can turn around and teach it to others, is its greatest tragedy. In the absence of a central body to regulate Yoga, each one is sovereign. As a result, instead of the teacher and the practitioner rising to the true glory of Yoga, Yoga is brought down and distorted to fit the limits of the novices. No doubt there are real Masters. But, there are also some shrewd people in between who are neither Masters nor novices. Realizing that Yoga is as orphaned as the internet with nobody holding the IP rights, they have cultivated individual styles to offer a glaring visibility. True Yoga remains drowned in this crowd of competing brands, which are Yoga’s own images in the cracked mirrors.
Many people in India are no exception. Swami Vivekanand was accepted as one of the greatest spiritual leaders only after he was first recognized in the West or Satyajit Ray required an international stamp of greatness for that to be seen in India. Likewise, a steady influx of ‘foreigners’ has suddenly highlighted Yoga’s worth that otherwise would have taken many more years to dawn. A mere cultural heritage does not make all Indians ‘Yogis’ by default, when ironically the prospering nation is hell-bent on following the materialistic model of the Western-style prosperity.
But, the traditionalists’ anguish against the Shiva Reas and Snatam Kaurs of the world is misplaced too. These apparent “excesses” only signal the radical phase that is closely following in the phased Yoga revolution. For a New Order to emerge for Yoga this experimentation is inevitable. Sage Patanjali’s road-map hasn’t changed for centuries because instead of defining the road itself he has defined the milestones. How to reach them has always been upto the practitioner with self-realization as the only guide. Yoga is becoming a mass movement first, depth and quality will join eventually. Then a Yogi with realization of the higher and higher truth will take no time in recognizing the theatrics of branded Yoga. And when that happens, Yoga would have undergone one more reincarnation and returned with all its innate vitality, beyond all of the present conflicts including East vs West.
I think this is what I have realised about Westerners over time, they do not respect the unity of anything. There is a tendency within the Western mind to appropriate anything, and mix and match it with other things(so-called free-form) without any sense of order. And it is justified by attitudes that, “We can, so we will”
But to the rest of the world Westerners look like people who struggle with notions like respect. Like for example respecting the cultural forms of another culture. The West think it is their right to appropriate anything and everything from other cultures - take whatever they want and do whatever they want with it. These other cultures, out of their good will teach these Western people their cultural forms, but seldom do they realise that the Western student is not going to appreciate its purity and will do whatever they want with it.
Unfortunately, due this to immature attitude of Western people, other cultures are starting to move towards protecting their cultural forms, such as by demanding government regulation and patenting them. I welcome these actions, in light of how arrogant Western attitudes are. I am really starting to see why the rest of the world hates the West as I converse more and more with Western people vis-a-vis other cultures.
A yogi would not be offended by ‘Alleu’ or ‘Allah-u-Akbar.’ Why would they be? Yoga is not affiliated, and does not belong, to any religion.
What is traditional yoga? A practice only open to Hindu men?
And who should govern yoga? Should Indian police be banging on ashram doors demanding baksheesh for 'incorrect yoga practice?'
Should India follow China’s example, and imprison anyone who doesn’t follow the strict rules on what you can and cannot practice?
If people want to take classes that are not authentic, then that is their decision. You can’t dictate what people do, as long as they are not harming themselves or others it is their right to do what they want. If they want to give their hard earned money to the yogic equivalent of dodgy insurance salesmen, then they are free to do so.
Authentic practices are there for those who seek. For example, The Iyengar Institute remain true to their message and guru. Evolution is such that any ‘weak branches’ will fall away. The trunk of yoga will always remain strong, and the practice will continue to evolve.
As for the ‘civil code,’ I find little civilized, healthy or spiritual in forcing women to cover up when men can dress how they like. But as stated before, it is best for women to do so in order to avoid being troubled.
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;54014]I think this is what I have realised about Westerners over time, they do not respect the unity of anything. There is a tendency within the Western mind to appropriate anything, and mix and match it with other things(so-called free-form) without any sense of order. And it is justified by attitudes that, “We can, so we will”
But to the rest of the world Westerners look like people who struggle with notions like respect. Like for example respecting the cultural forms of another culture. The West think it is their right to appropriate anything and everything from other cultures - take whatever they want and do whatever they want with it. These other cultures, out of their good will teach these Western people their cultural forms, but seldom do they realise that the Western student is not going to appreciate its purity and will do whatever they want with it.
Unfortunately, due this to immature attitude of Western people, other cultures are starting to move towards protecting their cultural forms, such as by demanding government regulation and patenting them. I welcome these actions, in light of how arrogant Western attitudes are. I am really starting to see why the rest of the world hates the West as I converse more and more with Western people vis-a-vis other cultures.[/QUOTE]
The United States isn’t called the “melting pot” for nothing. Her citizens come from almost every country there is.
So from a genealogical point of view - unless your native american - your an immigrant.
There is also a perverse underestimation of western knowledge and wisdom. If all human beings did were adherence to traditional beliefs I certainly would not be thumbing a response on a nifty little iPhone. I would probably be drawing pictures on some cave wall with the blood of some vanquished foe or prey. It is because my ancestors took new ideas and melded them with old ideas to progress my tribe forward that I am watching golf instead.
This ‘new generation has no respect for tradition’ argument was probably ‘hhrruumphed’ by tribal leaders back in that cave aeons ago. And will most likely continue for aeons to come. All in vain.
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;54014]I think this is what I have realised about Westerners over time, they do not respect the unity of anything. There is a tendency within the Western mind to appropriate anything, and mix and match it with other things(so-called free-form) without any sense of order. And it is justified by attitudes that, “We can, so we will”
But to the rest of the world Westerners look like people who struggle with notions like respect. Like for example respecting the cultural forms of another culture. The West think it is their right to appropriate anything and everything from other cultures - take whatever they want and do whatever they want with it. These other cultures, out of their good will teach these Western people their cultural forms, but seldom do they realise that the Western student is not going to appreciate its purity and will do whatever they want with it.
Unfortunately, due this to immature attitude of Western people, other cultures are starting to move towards protecting their cultural forms, such as by demanding government regulation and patenting them. I welcome these actions, in light of how arrogant Western attitudes are. I am really starting to see why the rest of the world hates the West as I converse more and more with Western people vis-a-vis other cultures.[/QUOTE]
I think you need to soften your attitude somewhat.
Try practicing some yoga.
A yogi would not be offended by ‘Alleu’ or ‘Allah-u-Akbar.’ Why would they be? Yoga is not affiliated, and does not belong, to any religion.
I am not offended by “Alleu” or “Allah-u-Akbar” but I can understand why a Meccan would be offended by me saying, “Har Har Mahadev” in the Mecca and why a Christian would be offended by me saying “Allah-u-Akbar” in Vatican city. Similarly, saying a Christian word of worship in a Hindu city. It just courtesy and respect for other people.
What is traditional yoga? A practice only open to Hindu men?
And who should govern yoga? Should Indian police be banging on ashram doors demanding baksheesh for 'incorrect yoga practice?'
Should India follow China’s example, and imprison anyone who doesn’t follow the strict rules on what you can and cannot practice?
No, traditional Yoga is a science of self development, consisting of 8 parts: yama, niyama, asana, pranayama, pratyhara, dharana, dhyana and samadhi. It should be treated as the lofty science it is, and not cheapened like it is in the West as some exercise program or weight loss program. This is disrespectful.
If people want to take classes that are not authentic, then that is their decision. You can’t dictate what people do, as long as they are not harming themselves or others it is their right to do what they want. If they want to give their hard earned money to the yogic equivalent of dodgy insurance salesmen, then they are free to do so.
The point is these inauthentic and dodgy versions should not exist. By introducing regulation we can get rid of these inauthentic and dodgy versions.
Authentic practices are there for those who seek. For example, The Iyengar Institute remain true to their message and guru. Evolution is such that any ‘weak branches’ will fall away. The trunk of yoga will always remain strong, and the practice will continue to evolve.
It will not remain strong if we let the current trends to continue without taking action. It will end up becoming cheapened, becoming nothing more than a weight loss or exercise gimmick.
As for the ‘civil code,’ I find little civilized, healthy or spiritual in forcing women to cover up when men can dress how they like. But as stated before, it is best for women to do so in order to avoid being troubled.
Even men are told to cover up in India. It was frowned upon in some parts of India for me to wear t shirts. The traditional Indian dress both for men and women dresses you up, rather than down. It is simply a case of respecting another culture. Western people can do whatever they want back home, but when they are in India, especially in holy cities like Rishikesh, Hardiwar, Dharamsala etc, they have to observe a dress code.
It is because my ancestors took new ideas and melded them with old ideas to progress my tribe forward that I am watching golf instead.
I accept that, but in this case we have a case of something which is not broken, so it does not need fixing. Yoga is already a complete system of body and mind management and complete system of self development. There is nothing to improve. In the West, rather than experiencing further development, it has degenerated into a commercial enterprise and cheapened into an exercise program or weight loss gimmik. A lot people join the industry to become teachers etc simply because it is big business, not out of any sincere intention to help people reach self-realization. A lot of Yoga teachers just take a course and are already teaching.
Therefore in order to preserve the purity of Yoga it is important to enforce regulations.
I am really starting to see why the rest of the world hates the West as I converse more and more with Western people vis-a-vis other cultures.[/QUOTE]
Then you don’t have anything to say about yoga and are a bad representative of true Indian culture.
Hatred is based upon fear and ignorance. When you as you say ‘see why the world hates the west,’ you are part of that fear and ignorance. You have become the problem, not the solution.
I have many Indian friends, none of whom share your ‘understanding’ of hatred, and wouldn’t be weak enough to indulge in it.
You speak of preserving traditional yoga? Well LEARN IT. Instead of indulging in ignorant racial generalizations.
Then you don’t have anything to say about yoga and are a bad representative of true Indian culture.
Hatred is based upon fear and ignorance. When you as you say ‘see why the world hates the west,’ you are part of that fear and ignorance. You have become the problem, not the solution.
Nope, it is about acknowledging a real attitude that exists towards the West. Indeed it is true, there exists a lot of hatred from non-Western cultures towards the West, and I can understand why the more I converse with Western people regarding non-Western cultures. My own professor said that world philosophy can only be taught under Western terms. The West historically have been arrogant and acted like they inherently superior and carry a burden to civilise other cultures. No surprises, why so many people hate the West and want to see its demise.
I don’t hate the West, but you could easily give me a reason to in the way you are writing to me. If you find it difficult to respect another culture, then that is very unfortunate.
Respecting another culture means that when you go there you have the courtesy to follow their civil code, and when you deal with their cultural forms, you respect their traditions. Otherwise, dont go there and don’t practice their cultural forms. Snatam Kaur should not be chanting “alleua” in a Hindu city, simply out of courtesy for the hosts. If you don’t get this, then sorry, it is unfortunate.
You speak of preserving traditional yoga? Well LEARN IT.
I have been doing so for the past 10 years. I probably know it much better than yourself.
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;54001]I think the deeper issue here is the new age bastardization of Yoga, leading to all kinds of bizaree Yogas appearing like Yingyang Yoga, Hot Yoga, Christian Yoga, Kabbalah Yoga etc.
Rather than preserving the traditional Yoga as the science of spiritual development it was suppose to be, and thus to be taken as a serious discipline. Like Kung fu is for self-defense. It is diluted, mixed with all sorts of stuff, weakening the discipline. Hence, I think it is important that there exists an official regulation of Yoga, to stop people from misapplying it.
I also agree that Shiva Rea should have respected the civil code of a place like Rishikesh, where dressing as she is use to is considered indecent exposure. Similarly, Snatam Kaur should not be saying “Alleua” in a Hindu city. It is like me going to the Mecca and saying, “Har har Mahadeva” or going to the Vatican and saying, “Allah-u-Akbar” Just because you’re a yogi does not exempt you from respecting the civil code of a place.[/QUOTE]
Most would say that MMA is more powerful and it’s clear that it is WAY more effective than traditional styles of Kung Fu. Kung Fu purists frequently enter into Mixed Martial Arts bouts to ‘bring back the pure form’, only to be quickly destroyed by a kid training in Mixed Martial Arts. Consequently, the evolved fighting style is fast becoming far more popular than the traditional styles, due to it’s no nonsense, effectiveness. It’s simply a more practical method. And all the traditional Kung Fu guys can do, is either evolve themselves, or just go back in their bedroom and practice the art they love. Same applies with Yoga. The traditions don’t necessarily apply to the majority in many countries. My family, and friends are all very happy, glowing, compassionate, loving, people who live life with passion and joy… what on earth are we going to do with a ‘path to liberation’ or ‘path to happiness’?? We having nothing in our lives to be unhappy about. We are grateful for every moment and the people in our lives. We do, however, need to maintain physical health, through cardio, weights, yoga, clean diet… Yoga has lost it’s traditional meaning, and that’s just tuff luck. You can’t control others or tell them how they should live, so just either evolve with the art, or shut up and go practice the traditional Yoga in your bedroom.
I cannot say much on martial arts, because I am not an expert in the field. Perhaps MMA is an improvement on traditional styles of Kung fu martial arts. However, Western styles of Yoga are not an improvement on the traditional form. In most cases the differences are superficial as just doing the traditional asanas in a hot room(Hot Yoga) or changing the names of the asanas into Christian praises(Christian Yoga) So no improvement has actually been made by Western Yogis on Indian Yoga. Other forms of Western Yoga, such as Ashtanga Yoga is simply to isolate the asanas part of Yoga.
what on earth are we going to do with a ‘path to liberation’ or ‘path to happiness’?? We having nothing in our lives to be unhappy about. We are grateful for every moment and the people in our lives. We do, however, need to maintain physical health, through cardio, weights, yoga, clean diet…
Yoga deals with three kinds of suffering or stress that affects the human being: physical suffering or stress; emotional/mental suffering or stress and spiritual suffering or stress. As happy as you and your family claim to be, all of you are going to suffer from physical problems, emotional and mental problems, and life problems. Nobody is exempt from this suffering. Everybody is affected by the 5 vices of anger, lust, arrogance, hatred, jealousy to some extent or the other. Yoga is a full program designed to manage, and eventually eradicate all kinds of suffering from ones life. This is achieived by the 8 limbs of Yoga.
We do, however, need to maintain physical health, through cardio, weights, yoga, clean diet… Yoga has lost it’s traditional meaning, and that’s just tuff luck.
The word is degenerated.
You can’t control others or tell them how they should live, so just either evolve with the art, or shut up and go practice the traditional Yoga in your bedroom.
What I can do is argue for regulation, and if the argument for regulation becomes dominant, then yes we can control how you practice Yoga in public. What do you behind your closed doors of we cannot regulate. I can also make my opinion clear to you in public forums as well - which I am.