A Lesson in Reducing Ego

Spirituality
#21

A rare moment that you have gone overboard. You are using a missile to kill a fly creating only collateral damage.

You only just noticed? I have been saying this from the start(Alright, Asuri noticed it first, but I followed next, then The Scales, and now the rest of the forum) Everything Amir says presupposes his own enlightenment. This means that every thread he posts in he is indirectly telling you he is enlightened, and therefore everything he says is perfect and the absoltue truth - but everything you say is based on assumptions, book knowledge, unconsciousness. He pretty much goes around the forum telling everybody that is not him they are ignorant, unconscious and unenlightened. He tells us to stop reading scriptures and books(unless they are his own posts and discourses on youtube :D) , he tells us to ignore knowledge, he tells us all masters before him are lying and he knows this because he’s enlightened. Recently he also told us enlightened people can also commit sins and remain enlightenment. Now he saying humility and humbleness are ignorance.

This thread was actually about telling an inspiring story about the little girl. Who amir is making out to be doing a pretend display. It basically boils down to this - if you are not Amir - you are imperfect, unconscious, asleep, ignorant, pretending, lying.

#22

thanks for sharing!

#23

Beautiful story! We can only guess how hard her life was and still is :frowning: She is really a great soul if she responded to such hardships with humbleness, loyalty, devotion and other qualities!

#24

What struck me about her is that she is intelligent, proud, and feisty in spite of her circumstances. That is what caused the Washington Post reporter to learn his lesson in humility.

#25

[QUOTE=antaraayaah;58568]Amir,

I stand by my statements. It is up to the readers if they believe your version of the yoga sutra, where ego cannot be humbled.

Namaste[/QUOTE]

I am less interested in the Yoga Sutras and more interested in the Truth, which is a living reality rather than a corpse of knowledge. What one calls a “humbled” ego is just an ego which has been made passive. This passive-ego is what is usually thought of as humbleness. But whether active or passive, as long as the mind is identified with the ego, then one’s way of being cannot be anything more than the desire for self-preservation. That is why, it may be said that there are two kinds of “humbleness” - that which arises from an identification with the passive ego, and that which arises from non-identification with the passive ego. They both appear the same outwardly, but the difference is sublte, and that subtle difference makes all the difference.

#26

Suhas,

“For, in this thread, we are celebrating her Karmayoga, being unconcerned about reward”

I do not see that is the case. She herself has said that her “aim” in life is to help her sisters get an education. Because one may be fascinated by the idea of service to others, one may think that it is not out of the desire to nourish one’s ego. But the fact is that as long as the mind is identified with the ego, then whatever one does is basically going to be for the sake of nourishment of the ego. Even if it is in assisting others, it is just because one’s ego feels affirmed through assisting others. There is nothing right or wrong about this - but it was my intention to make it clear that appearances can be deceiving. Her way of functioning is not fundamentally different than that of the average person - the basic mechanisms are the same although the expressions are different. The reason why others may be impressed with this is because just as doing something as apparently selfless as helping her sisters satisfies her ego, that is turn nourishes one’s own ego. The ego is needed in life, without it to live an ordinary life is an impossibility. But whether the mind is still entangled in the identification with the ego, one still has yet to come to discover another kind of humbleness which arises out of communion with ones own true nature.

#27

Sahas,

“Neither Kalaivani nor the gentleman had any need to look humble.”

That is not needed. All that is needed is to remain in a state of ignorance as to one’s own being. As long as one has yet to come to know oneself, through and through, then although different personalities may express themselves differently, inwardly all of one’s actions are coming from the same basic unconsciousness. In that unawareness, suffering is inevitable, whether one appears to be humble or otherwise.

#28

Dear friends, look at this part of the conversation:

“…But when did you get this enthusiasm to learn about ‘Thatva Bodha’?”

“Sir after joining here, I decided that the best way to be of help to the customers is to know the Subject first…”

So Kalaivani began her job with wanting to be of help and being inherently of sattwic guna, she decided upon a sattwic way for this i.e. knowing the subject.

Throughout the interaction, she exudes enthusiasm and joy, hallmarks of a spiritual person.

Even the offered help, (four times her pay) she wants to be channeled through her boss. If she has such faith in her boss, imagine how much faith she must have in Ishwara!!

There’s a lot to more learn from this story…

#29

Anand,

This is a common misunderstanding, that one who is living in poverty is far more capable of coming to know of humbleness than one who is rich. The fact is that whether rich or poor, unless a certain insight arises which brings one to an understanding that one’s freedom is not to be found outwardly, but through turning inwards to come to know oneself, then one is certain to continue seeking and not finding. It is possible even that a rich person has an advantage, because he has already attained to material well being, there is a far greater possibility of coming to the realize that it is not enough, it is not capable of fullfilling one’s being. The poor person does not have that advantage, he still has much to attain to before he can fulfill the standards which are set by the society.
And because the poor person often has to struggle just to fulfill his basic survival needs, there is very little possibility of becoming involved in something like the expansion of consciousness towards one’s liberation. Who cares about wisdom or enlightenment when you do not even have enough food to fill your stomach ? It is only once one’s survival needs have been fulfilled, that there is a possibility of exploring into other dimensions of life.

“So Kalaivani began her job with wanting to be of help and being inherently of sattwic guna, she decided upon a sattwic way for this i.e. knowing the subject.”

I would not say so. She was forced into the situation because of her being poor. Naturally, for her to find a job, she would be very willing to perform well and maintain it.
There is nothing “sattvic” about it, it is simply that it may be impressive for one to see somebody poor making such an effort at work. And her efforts were genuine and sincere, but I would not say that it has much to do with the humbleness that arises out of seeing that there is not even a single particle of one’s being which isn’t being supported by something far more essential than one’s limited personality.

#30

Amir, could you provide source of this information?

[QUOTE=AmirMourad;58718]This is a common misunderstanding, that one who is living in poverty is far more capable of coming to know of humbleness than one who is rich. [/QUOTE]

If it is “common misunderstanding” is there some evidence to prove it wrong? Was there some study performed or is it your reasoning? I’m asking because I’m in phase of questioning common truths and checking how we are forming convictions. For example, I always thought that poor people are more humble deep inside because they experience over and over again that they are helpless against “forces of life” and I noticed that rich people have usually strong conviction that they can control life (and fate in general). However, I don’t have any evidence behind it and it is just my reasoning…

#31

Hi Pawel,

“Was there some study performed or is it your reasoning?”

No, it is out of my own reasoning. What is beautiful about the kinds of things that have happened in India, where almost every method has been exhausted in the work of the expansion of consciousness, is that if you look into the ways of different traditions with tremendously different approaches, it is capable of revealing something very insightful about human nature. When we are spoken of material poverty in the West, it may mean something totally different for the material poverty that is chosen consciously by an ascetic yogi who has renounced the world. And the reason for it is because all of those methods of asceticism are such - that even in material poverty one is capable of surviving without too many problems. It is not because of trying to create an improvement in one’s immediate environment, it is because of certain capabilities which are awakened within oneself as a result of practice. For example - the yogi does not have to worry as much about something like hunger or thirst, because once one has entered deep enough into one’s unconscious, one can awaken certain parts of the unconscious which make one immune to the sensations of hunger and thirst. Or if food is not available, there is a certain method as to how to create an inner situation in the body where the body can simply nourish itself by absorbing the life energies in one’s environment. In this way, one can survive for several weeks or months without food, and in some cases, without water.

Even if the yogi is living absolutely naked in the severe cold winter in the mountains, it poses no threat to one’s survival. There is an ancient method of meditation which is known in Tibet as tummo. It is a technique of increasing body heat in such a way, that one can control one’s body temperature as to be immune to extreme climates of heat or cold. So - because of such phenomena - to live in material poverty in the spiritual sciences has generally never been a great obstacle for a yogi or mystic. For those who have not come to such a depth of practice - then whether East or West, a lack of material well being basically means a threat to one’s survival. And in such a state - before one can even begin to investigate into the work of the expansion of consciousness, one will first have to settle the basic necessities for survival. Because the average poor person is always struggling for survival, he does not have any space within his mind to be receptive to something like wisdom or coming to more awareness. The work of survival is something which requires a constant re-enforcement of the ego because without the ego, self-preservation would be impossible.

So, there are good reasons why people who are living in poverty rarely ever come to know of something like true humbleness. And those rare exceptions are of the kind which I have already mentioned, the possibility of not just humbleness, but enlightenment in the midst of material poverty - has become available for a totally different reason.

#32

“For example, I always thought that poor people are more humble deep inside because they experience over and over again that they are helpless against “forces of life” and I noticed that rich people have usually strong conviction that they can control life (and fate in general).”

Whether rich or poor, the lust for power is something which is buried deep down in the unconscious. Unless one has become a totally conscious being, these tendencies will seek almost inexhaustible ways to express themselves. The average poor person, seeing all the time that he does not have so many things which other people have, has so much to attain. The rich person has already reached to a certain peak of material well being, he has either reached the limit or has almost reached the limit as to how much material well being he can gather. And no matter how much wealth he accumulates - the tragedy is that after all this he may realize that it still has not managed to bring any satisfaction to his being. That is why it can be witnessed amongst, for example, many celebrities in the West. They have gathered so much wealth, and have seen directly that it has not managed to bring any contentment to their being. Out of this, a certain desperation grows, and they start becoming involved in all kinds of desperate acts to try and compensate for a certain inner emptiness - indulging in alcohol, drugs, sex, and generally being destructive both to themselves and others.

So there is a certain advantage to the rich person only in the sense that, if one is aware, one can come to the insight that the source of one’s freedom and happiness lies not in the accumulation of material wealth. And it can be not just an empty realization - but one which is supported by direct experience. The poor person does not have that advantage of being supported by direct experience which proves that material well being is not enough. But that does not mean that poverty is in itself an obstacle for this realization, it is just that poverty is usually not supportive to come to deeper insight into life. Jesus was poor, and yet he managed to come to the same insight. That is why he had said that “Man cannot live by bread alone”. So there are cases where a poor person can come to the understanding that one’s happiness is not to be found in material well being, but it is very rare. Otherwise, ordinarily the poor person is not interested in anything else except survival, and lives only for the sake of survival.

#33

Hi Amir,

Good points! I agree with them (except nature of being poor in India ? few people may have such yogic powers to be beyond physical needs, but there are many people suffering because of poverty ? it?s not coming out of their ego but just brutality of life). But also I believe my points are valid as well: poor people rely more on things which are beyond their control, so because of this they are more humble (by humble I mean without conviction that everything depends on me and I can do everything with my life). So as I see it, you have good points without any evidence, I have good points without evidence… A study would be useful ? to make some sort of questionnaire to assess level of humility and correlate it with welfare level. I wonder what it would show…

Ps. Just little correction, Jesus didn?t say ?Man cannot live by bread alone? but something more like: "It is written: 'Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.?? Subtle difference but meaning is different.

#34

If there is anybody here who need a reduction in ego, it’s Amir :wink:

Poverty does not cultivate humilty it cultivates desire for materials. The last thing on the mind of a hungry and homeless man is spirituality/self-realization, it is food, water and survival.

Being poor is no virtue in itself.

#35

[QUOTE=Anand Kulkarni;58695]Dear friends, look at this part of the conversation:

“…But when did you get this enthusiasm to learn about ‘Thatva Bodha’?”

“Sir after joining here, I decided that the best way to be of help to the customers is to know the Subject first…”

So Kalaivani began her job with wanting to be of help and being inherently of sattwic guna, she decided upon a sattwic way for this i.e. knowing the subject.

Throughout the interaction, she exudes enthusiasm and joy, hallmarks of a spiritual person.

Even the offered help, (four times her pay) she wants to be channeled through her boss. If she has such faith in her boss, imagine how much faith she must have in Ishwara!!

There’s a lot to more learn from this story…[/QUOTE]

I think you are right. This girl was faced with hardship that few of us have to face. She responded by deciding to look for a job, and assumed the responsibility of caring for her younger sisters. And once she found a job, she came up with an excellent way of doing it. If you look at her questions to Viswanath, you will realize that she was an excellent sales person. Viswanath called her a genius. I think these are all definitely sattvic qualities, and exactly the opposite of what Viswanath expected of her. She taught him a lesson.

It’s too bad that more of us aren’t capable of learning such a lesson.

#36

[QUOTE=Asuri;58770]…If you look at her questions to Viswanath, you will realize that she was an excellent sales person. Viswanath called her a genius. I think these are all definitely sattvic qualities, and exactly the opposite of what Viswanath expected of her. She taught him a lesson…[/QUOTE]

Dear Friend:

Her sattvic guna and enthusiasm, made Kalaivani become one with the job, the subject and the customers interested in such subjects. Isn’t that Yoga?

Something like the merger of the seer, the process of seeing and that which is being seen. (Sam~yam ?)

anand

#37

Namaste Anand,

I think you may be on to something here.

#38

Surya,

“Poverty does not cultivate humilty it cultivates desire for materials. The last thing on the mind of a hungry and homeless man is spirituality/self-realization, it is food, water and survival.”

That is true.

#39

[QUOTE=AmirMourad;58950]Surya,

“Poverty does not cultivate humilty it cultivates desire for materials. The last thing on the mind of a hungry and homeless man is spirituality/self-realization, it is food, water and survival.”

That is true.[/QUOTE]

On the other hand, excessive desire for materials results in spiritual poverty. Material poverty could well be a result of one’s being “spiritually dead”.

So “arise!, awake! and stop not till the goal is reached” should begin with internal (spiritual) cleansing, for getting and deserving are complementary.

regards, anand

#40

[QUOTE=AmirMourad;58718]Anand,

This is a common misunderstanding, that one who is living in poverty is far more capable of coming to know of humbleness than one who is rich. The fact is that whether rich or poor, unless a certain insight arises which brings one to an understanding that one’s freedom is not to be found outwardly, but through turning inwards to come to know oneself, then one is certain to continue seeking and not finding. It is possible even that a rich person has an advantage, because he has already attained to material well being, there is a far greater possibility of coming to the realize that it is not enough, it is not capable of fullfilling one’s being. The poor person does not have that advantage, he still has much to attain to before he can fulfill the standards which are set by the society.
And because the poor person often has to struggle just to fulfill his basic survival needs, there is very little possibility of becoming involved in something like the expansion of consciousness towards one’s liberation. Who cares about wisdom or enlightenment when you do not even have enough food to fill your stomach ? It is only once one’s survival needs have been fulfilled, that there is a possibility of exploring into other dimensions of life.[/QUOTE]

Yes. One’s level of material possessions are not connected with being humble. But where did I say so?

[QUOTE= My say: “So Kalaivani began her job with wanting to be of help and being inherently of sattwic guna, she decided upon a sattwic way for this i.e. knowing the subject.”

Your say: I would not say so. She was forced into the situation because of her being poor. Naturally, for her to find a job, she would be very willing to perform well and maintain it.
There is nothing “sattvic” about it, it is simply that it may be impressive for one to see somebody poor making such an effort at work. And her efforts were genuine and sincere, but I would not say that it has much to do with the humbleness that arises out of seeing that there is not even a single particle of one’s being which isn’t being supported by something far more essential than one’s limited personality.[/QUOTE]

What I am saying is Kalaivani began by learning the subject ( a sattvic attitude), rather than just trying to please the boss or the customers in frivolous ways.

regards, anand