Ahimsa - Nonviolence - Vegetarianism - Veganism

Yoga Discussion General Yoga
#20

Thank you, Hubert, that was very very well put. I enjoy reading your posts more and more.

The only thing I disagree on is the hunter-gatherer societies asking forgiveness for their kills. I haven’t read anything on this and I thought that it was more of a Judeo-Christian tradition to ask forgiveness, and also to ask for the animals’ assent before they killed it. The hunter-gatherers had great respect for what they kill, though, and from what I have read had ceremonies to honor and release the spirit of the animal (or four-legged… they didn’t make the same human-animal distinction we do today it was just two-leggeds and four-leggeds, at least in the Lakota literature). PLEASE, please correct me if I am wrong.

I’ve been on both sides of the “well what’s wrong with western culture anyway?” argument. (the one that addresses whether or not we should be ashamed for our cultures’ wiping out of the Indians, which is a pretty stupid question if you ask me, the answer is yes, and we should also be ashamed at everything else on the planet we are destroying! I don’t think anyone should be called a true historian if they don’t feel pangs of -something- I don’t care if it is shame, sadness, what have you when they talk about things like this, but I digress…) Basically the people who ask this question are either trying to counter the pacifist Indian society argument (the one that states that tribal warfare was just ceremonial and paints a picture of a Native American utopia), or trying to justify our historical faults for what we have made out of it… (hooray corporatism! and a lower murder rate in our modern society, of course, which of course would not have happened if we had not wiped out the “savages” [sarcasm])

I am starting a new paragraph because I think I digressed too much in that last one! Anyway, yes, we do have MUCH to learn about humility and being thankful for this world we live on, and working within nature rather than trying to conquer it, because we’re not really a part of the web of life still, right? (again sarcasm) For some reason the culture we come from has a problem with understanding this, perhaps because it has been way too long since our ancestors had to survive off the land. Well, with global warming on the rise and the amazon rainforest estimated at 50 years left (WAKE UP IDIOTS IN POWER) it still looks like survivalism to me!!

And, again, sorry if I get abrasive sounding when I talk about stuff like this, but it really does make me furious. I wish I could do more about it… but I really don’t know how at this point… I need to save up money first.

#21

[QUOTE=Hubert;7343]
Dietary restrains are important preparing and during pranyama practice when the nadis are purified. Once pranayama is mastered, any food will be tolerable, and the practicant will resist even poisonous substances ! (it is good to be a yogi, isn’t it ? :slight_smile: )

.[/QUOTE]
when does one know when they have mastered pranyama

#22

I think, from what you quoted of Hubert saying, that we can test them with D-con.

And start a pool.

Hehe

#23

amik, when i find myself most angry at others it is usually when I am in a mental state where I am not content within myself. being angry on the past? we are in the now. Do the right thing for you in the now and let the past and future be as they were and will be. maybe there karma was as such that they were destined to be destroyed, I dont know these answers but to be angry about things of the such is taking a position of you judging what is right and wrong without knowing all the factors involved, is your knowledge that high to make these judgement.
I say this with a loving heart
I have things to let go of too and what I said is just my thoughts on what I read, nothing more, nothing less
seeker

#24

[quote=tubeseeker;7439]amik, when i find myself most angry at others it is usually when I am in a mental state where I am not content within myself. being angry on the past? we are in the now. Do the right thing for you in the now and let the past and future be as they were and will be. maybe there karma was as such that they were destined to be destroyed, I dont know these answers but to be angry about things of the such is taking a position of you judging what is right and wrong without knowing all the factors involved, is your knowledge that high to make these judgement.
I say this with a loving heart
I have things to let go of too and what I said is just my thoughts on what I read, nothing more, nothing less
seeker[/quote]

Well, it might be that I am in my 20-something years, but I really am not content to say that it’s the earth’s fate to just pass on. Maybe humanity has written its own fate. I don’t know. I know a lot of people who saw no value in the human race continuing, and I as an absolute relativist for a while absolutely did not care. (At the same time what I did care about was getting laid and being “awesome” so go figure.) All of the factors I know have been my own. I’ve seen myself not care about the fate of the earth, I’ve seen myself self-destructive, I’ve seen myself turned on to Enlightenment with a capital E which is both true and not true, subsequently I took to looking at values systems and realized there is power in some of them (such as the respect of hunter gatherers I mentioned in my last post) and I understand why it is I care, because darn it there is hope in them as well!

I grew up without a value system, well a “real” value system. My household was the model postmodern household. I learned how to survive, not how to live well. Both of my parents maintained the external facade of living well, and all the while, well, I’ll just say my dad is a professor and what I know about him would get him fired at the least. And my mom stayed married to him. I love my parents, but I’d be absolutely lying if I said, knowing what I know now, I am not absolutely pissed off at them for lying to me about the nature of their relationship. I know that they did not know much about a good values system because they were both raised in faulty ones.

Nothing is reality. Everything is a part of reality. Having said that a value system is just a part of reality that makes it much better and healthier for living intelligent organisms like me to get along. My dive into the rabbit hole began when I realized that parts of my reality were dominating the picture, i.e. I lived in a hyperreality. These parts were academia, seeking father figures, and attracting suitable boyfriends (and the weird egos I adopted trying to attract them, the peacock tails if you will), and I had overlooked the very important fundamentals of life, the real nature of our world and how to live in it. I’d like to digress here and say that -anyone- who separates themselves from their circumstances growing up for -any reason- is running away, and is an egomaniac. We got the cards we are dealt. We are a system within a system within a system and a part of the great unified consciousness, which is a whole other term paper in itself. (I’m not crazier than anyone else, I’ve just come to some pretty crazy conclusions, crazy by the majority’s standard… anyway…) I didn’t like being raised in that system, and I am not “over it”. Anger is a source of knowledge, particularly firsthand knowledge that a more concrete value system based on objective and subjective reality is better, whether or not it’s true with a capital T or any of that jazz. Frankly with what I know now I’d be worried about myself if I wasn’t angry. That and trying to bury the anger will just make me lay on the couch and go to sleep, and I’ll take being pissed off over sleep any day of the week, unless I need to go to work the next day, in that case the sleep would serve a purpose.

Anyway, my judgement comes from firsthand experience of learning of the possiblity of a better values system. Richard Rose’s (google if you’re in the dark on him… good writer… as with everything grain of salt, but he knew some stuff) “ways and means” committee, the way of interacting with the rest of the world. It takes a lot of work to straighten it out, I think if anything this might be closest to any one person’s life work. You say what you say with a loving heart to me, I appreciate that, and I thank you for it, and I thank you for valuing speaking with a loving heart.

You also talked about karmic forces. All karma is: Cause and Effect. If the effect is anger, then that is what it is. Again it is just the cards you are dealt and what you do with them. The results of your actions are just more cards. “When we don’t get what we want we get experience.” Get enough experience and hopefully one’s head gets straightened out… I am just to the point where I feel like my head got straightened out and I am still dealing with some bad “deals” (to continue the card metaphor).

I hope you weren’t hoping for the short explanation because there was the long one!

#25

Hi Amik,

This is becoming a very interesting post indeed. In one of your earlier reply you mentioned that you don’t know of any native tribe who asked forgiveness. Perhaps you haven’t heard about the South African Bushmen yet. A bit of history, the Bushmen (23 left in South Africa) wasn’t hunted (read killed, although some did occur) into extinction by other tribes (Blacks and Whites), but they died of all the strange illnesses and diseases which the Blacks brought down from North African during their diaspora down to Souther Africa and then later Whites who colonised South Africa. Anyway, it is a know fact that the Bushmen is one of the oldest races in the world and they are considered to be the craddle of humankind. Why they are on the brink of extinction, that I won’t go into in this post, but I belief it is part of the Divine Will.

Anyway, the Bushmen are also hunter-gathers and it is a known fact through many research projects undertaken by many people in South Africa that the Bushmen first pray for the soul of the animal they are about to kill, for this they have long and elaborate ceremonies the night before the hunt. When the animal has been killed then they first asked forgiveness (and this is not a Christian-Judeo exclusive practise) to the animal they killed and then go on to explain to the animal their reasons for killing him/her (usually because they have a family to feed and for them to survive).

About your anger about the people doing nothing. I read your explanation about anger, and yes perhaps you have to go through it, but remember you have a choice to change it all. What can we do to change the current world situation? As yogis we have to stop to be angry (anger is counter-productive and attracts negative energy) and replace our anger with words and thoughts which are conducive to change in the world. Our [B]intention [/B]is most important if we want to change things, when enough people around the world turn their intention to for example peace, eventually peace will prevail. My advice turn your thoughts and words to good intentions and they will eventually manifest, perhaps not in this life, but perhaps in a next.

The main thing about vegetarianism is not to get emotional about it, everybody is not the same and as a yogi we need to respect where each person is in his/her evolution. [B][I]As my own teacher sometimes say:“Judge not but for the Grace of God there go I.”[/I][/B]

#26

I am sorry putting forth a so radical approach. It was written on the impulse of the moment, without care.
To defend myself, you must know that most of the time I am talking to myself. I write and post to get things clear form myself, and It is not adressed to others, it is without any expectation.
Having made some posts on these forums, I often did find myself in contradiction with my former posts … so I am not pretending that I have all my things together.
But I am trying.

#27

hi Pandara,
There is much talk of asking for forgiveness from animals before killing them for consumption.
How about plants?
Fin

#28

Hi Fin,

There is a wonderful post I think under the thread of the Koshas which explains the levels of consciousness, if you read that it will explain why plants don’t the same treatment.

#29

maybe part of your process is to get angry and then once it gets hot enough it will boil what happnes when water boils, it turns to steam, what does steam do, evaporate the water, after enough evaporation the water is gone and your anger may go with it.

I grew up dysfunctional and for a long time was sad about it, at 5 my uncle killed himself and my mom said it was because he could not live any longer getting along better with his nephew then his own son. He was upset that we had a stronger relationship then his child. my mother told me this, when I was five. As a kid I sat on the front porch counting cars thinking that “when 50 cars pass by my dad will be here” for the once a month visit if I was lucky. many times I would count cars for an hour or more, cause he was always late.

My point is not to compare who had it worse, I used to live in a place in my mind of “no one understands me or how I feel, no one has gone through what I have gone through”

One day I learn to let go of most everything that has happened to me in this life, and whne I have a bad day there is only one question that I get stuck on anymore. I feel I understand with compassion why the world is the way it is and I pray for the world and souls to find balance most everyday. I pray for you as well

One day will come when you let go of your anger, maybe today, maybe tomorrow, whenever the time is right for you. Because that is what it is all about you. and once you find your place, the world will fall into place

good luck in your journey and thanks for your story
seeker

#30

Hi Amik,

Since it is my post that probably brought out the anger in you, I want to apologize for being a little too abrasive myself in my mention about asking God for forgiveness. It was just my opinion from my learning of yoga with my guru and also my Vedantic guru.

I salute each one of you who have attempted vegetarianism after having been a non-vegetarian. That is no easy task. As I said in my previous post, it is easy for me to preach vegetarianism, being a born vegetarian.

Much Peace

#31

I think when one is able to awake kundalini shakti with it. But that requires a dedication probably unaffordable for a non secluded person.
As I read in the Upanishads, the disciple should practice 4 times a day, morning, noon, evening and midnight and complete a certain number of inhales-exhales of a certain type of pranayama, a total amount of at least 5-6 hours, daily, and after 3 months the first siddhis will appear.
Because of that, I am not having any illusions about this. This is hard work, and perhaps unsuitable for most of us. Not because it is not good, but because we cannot do this. This would require total seclusion and renunciation, I think you agree.
Perhaps there are people who do not believe this. I do. Why ? Because after I started yoga, every little thing did work as it was “advertised” and if it did not, it was me and not the practice. So if the little things work, I believe the “big” ones will work too. The only problem is to decide if we really want them. That is the greatest obstacle. I had to realize that the reasons I am practicing yoga are anything but altruistic. In fact they were quite egoistic ones. So I am cooling down a bit, and learning what real relaxation, and peace are. Perhaps I can start a real yoga practice now.

#32

hubert,
something I felt that I noticed when I read the hatha pradipika and maybe I am reading it wrong
in it they say on multiple occasions for multiple practices that when you master someting you reach the state you speak of. If you stand on your head for three hours you reach this state, do the breathign you descrbe you reach it as well. so what are they saying in that text, to me they are saying there is multiple ways to reach the state of bliss.

but hubert, I could be wrong and it would be beneficial for me to look into this more, but that was my intial impression from reading the hatha pradipika a couple of times

#33

This is off topic, but I think mere technicality will never be enough to enlighten a spirit. The description of a ceirtan way often contains only the surface of what is done, and the core is missed becuase it is better to experience it individually. So I have no idea what happens to someone who does these practices, because I am unable to do them. I only have a feeling that more is happening inside than outside.

#34

Edited. It does not belong here.

#35

I just shared this story with a friend of mine who took some comfort in asking herself this same question. Thanks again for sharing this.

#36

Well, if you are a good yogi, you can transform the chicken into soybean.
Or resurrect the chicken.
Or you can just eat it, and your body will transform it into what it needs. This one is just as simple, and more accesible. :slight_smile:

#37

Everything is energy and some of that energy is conscious. Just as humans, animals are on their own journey and are conscious energy, they have a soul. Just because a lower form of energy (predator) acts a certain way does not mean their action is justified, their energy continues to stay low. When you consume the flesh of another conscious energy, you are consuming it’s pain, torture, and death. You are putting a lower form of energy into your body thus lowering your own energy.

Part of our journey is becoming [B]aware[/B]. Consuming or not consuming an animal’s flesh is not the only way to decrease or increase your energy, but it is a powerful way. It’s up to you to decide if you want to continue being a lower form of energy or a higher form of energy. This is karmic, what you think and do is what you attract back to you.

#38

Namaste,
Ive been “vegan” for a few years. The reason i put quotation marks outside of vegan is because for the last few months ive been eating fish, primarily because i went through a period of time where i lost alot of weight and really needed to increase my food intake in some way and at the time i felt it would be best to start eating fish. The day after tomorrow im going off to my teacher training and i am feeling like this will be an incredible lifestyle change. This past week ive become 100% certain that i no longer want to eat fish, for i no longer want to eat any animal products. I want to hear from you. I know alot of people on here are vegetarian, and if not, i still wanna hear from you. What are your reasons, what are your preferences, how long have you been veg and how does it make your yogic journey more powerful, if it in fact affects it at all. I would really appreciate the responses because this is a definite lifestyle change for me. Thank you for your time!
Love and light and peace to all!

#39

It sounds as though you’ve already connected with what is appropriate for you.
Our feedback at this point would be anecdotal at best, as it should be :slight_smile:

As Gary Kraftsow pointed out at a recent Yoga Journal panel, Ahimsa is available to everyone regardless of whether they are vegan or not. Being vegan is a noble and worthy pursuit, for those that want it.

What is more relevant is that one selects what is right for them without projecting their “right” onto others.

So I would support you in your choice to not eat animal products (for your health) just as I would support you for eating fish (for your health).

My journey of yoga is impacted by mindful eating. It has little to do with being vegan directly. But I would encourage students to examine the nature of eating meat (in their body) just as I would encourage them to examine the result of alcohol or coffee in that same vessel.