Ahimsa - Nonviolence - Vegetarianism - Veganism

A little meat won’t kill anyone. But the animal still must be killed. Now, as animals have group souls killing an animal is not like killing a human. The animal group can grow another member.
Still, it is arguably cruel to do this, especially that it is possible to live without meat. Many people would not eat the meat if they had to kill the animal, first. But they do eat it, because they pass the unpleasant action of killing to someone else. So their moral freedom is on the expense of another human being, the butcher. I don’t say butchers or workers in the meat industry are imoral … but the industry per se, is such a thing. All industries what target profit, and profit alone, are imoral. I can accept a carnivore culture what is built on the respect and care for animals, where the animals are not just raw material, but beings, who are given the chance to live. I respect the herdsman who takes care for many animals, and only kills a few, when there is a need. Animals have their meaning, their own purpose in lthe world, and that is not just so we can eat them.
We are masters of this world, we should be good masters. If we can’t realize this, than we are a plague, and the world will hit back, as it often does. (Think of the Creutzfeld Jacob disease - caused by prions, what appear when animals are given to eat the flesh of their own kind )

On transsubstantiation of meat … or the bread and wine in the church, I can’t say I am a good romano-catholic, as I can’t believe that a real transformation takes place. I am not saying this is not possible, but I don’t see the need. Why turn something, what is already the body of Christ, into the body of Christ ? I do not like this kind of practice as it takes the sacred into a sacred place, turns some food into sacred food, while the world outside the church, and other foods are not sacred. We should walk the world as a church, treat everyone as Christs, eat every food giving thanks, as sacred food.
I am not saying organized church is useless, but when the first disciples had their meals in common, they did share real food, and they regarded it as the body of Christ. The theology of transsubstantiation did appear later. They even did share their material posessions.
Organised religion, the church today became a ritual, a show. I am not saying it is useless, but often it is authoritative, demands respect on the clause of blind faith, and is not free from materialism and some cheap sentimentalism.
I very much respect the Church, and see it as the keeper of the gospels. But it is just a frame. Real faith, real christianity is in our own hearts.
I do not want to take away anything, not even the Eucharist. It is truly the body of Christ … but why is that only a priest can perform it ? Why are people restricted to come and touch and taste the Christ through another human being ? The Christ is alive, and here, in us and in our fellow man.

I respect the faith of conservative christians, and I do believe in blessing the meal. Only that if there is a poison in the meal, if the one who does the blessing is like Saint Benedict, the poison will be neutralized. Still I have seen many examples where conservative believers had food intoxication even with the blessings. You can’t force the hands of God just by saying a blessing or believing in it’s power. Real faith is not blind faith. Real faith is knowledge, and working along the universal rules, and not through miracles. Real faith makes miracles understandable as we understand taht they are not miracles, but fit perfectly into the frame of the Universe. Some people live in ignorance, they say they are faithful, than they are suprised that accidents, illnesses, death comes upon them. Many things are avoidable by a little knowledge … why burden our guardian angels with tasks what could be performed by ourselves ?

PS. I know that there is a faith what greatly surpasses mine, where all the things I said above prove to be silly. But I am not there yet. :slight_smile:

Dear Hubert,

First of all thanks for using the right word, I couldn’t remember it when I wrote this reply this afternoon, i.e. transubstantiation.:wink:

Thanks for pointing out the aspects which you have, I agree with what you say, but I am also one who do not usually argue about these things as I feel it is usually pointless, and in the case of my yogi, I belief I will lead by example. She is new to yoga and even her spiritual path in this life and her challenges are many. I just thought it was interesting what she said, as I have never before heard this argument.

About the blessings, I like to bless my food, not because I belief it will make me feel better, or because the Christ is then ingrained it or what other reason, but I do it to show my gratitude for what I have to eat as I had many previous incarnations where I did not had enough and died of severe hunger and famine.

Surley you act with grace in all your endeavours. I do respect other peopel’s feelings, too, and I am not making these blunt statements to my conservative christian antourage. I believe in the the wisdom of their karma. I was just glad to have this place where I can speak openly.

Hubert, and I am so glad and grateful for you pointing these aspects out which you did.:slight_smile: This Forum would be a poor place without your insightful replies and I always enjoy your posts!

I am in the process of converting my diet to a vegetarian diet. Just the thought of eating flesh really makes me feel ill. I’ve fought with this feeling for years and constantly ate meat because I was scared of what would happen to my body with the protein, but after a lot of studying and talking to vegans/vegetarians I finally feel like I am ready to take the next step.

I do feel that there are two different situations…eating meat the way we do here in America is pretty gross, IMO. Just to think of what they do in slaugherhouses makes me sick to my stomach. I wish that someone could somehow step in and fix the conditions and how people treat these animals. After all, they are giving ther lives to us to eat them. Even with fish…so many people won’t eat chicken/beef/pork, but eating fish is ok? I don’t understand because I think they are horrible to them too.

I know that people need to do what is right for their bodies…and I have always thought of myself as someone who needed to eat meat because of my blood type, etc., but I think with slow steps and help it will be possible. I cannot live with the guilt anymore. Take Ana Forrest for example though…she is allergic to most grains and vegetables so she has to eat meat to survive. She kills her own meat…with a bow and arrow. I must commend her for taking responsiblity for what she is doing so unlike what the rest of Americans do.

Xela,
I have been watching with curiosity since I first saw you mention that you were considering vegetarianism, somewhere, not sure exactly since we are friends in a few places. Perhaps it is the many months of committed and deepen Ashtanga practice paired with happiness and the love you have in your life; I would bet on all of that :wink:
I am hoping that you will you add links and any information you find in your own search in this thread because so many people are waking up to this for themselves. Mukunda has spoken to me, in his mentoring of my practice, about resulting nadis that are purified with right practice. As we purify them, what comes to the surface of minds and physical bodies is the pain, confusion, anger, fear, etc that was down below. It can become potently acute, but it arrives at the surface for us to finish off with [I]conscious [/I]practice and cleansing. It is the last step. I was working through something incredible this summer, and there is something similar between how your voice sounds to me here and to my own then. It is the watching for how to [I]be [/I]different in the world now that we know that we can’t go back to what we once did. lol, I just considered that maybe I won’t sound similarly voiced to you, even though you are to me! :smiley: I wish you all the best, as your way becomes clearer and clearer to you.

Namaste,

then I must be really purifying cause there’s been nothing but mucky feelings for several weeks now. :slight_smile:

Burn, baby, burn! :wink:

As I expereinced and imagine, regarding diet, there are the succesive phases of ignorant innocence, selfish care, knowledgable but overdone attention with it’s oscillations, than the resulting balance of changed, better habits what culminate in a wise ignorance regarding food.

Hubert, I am unclear on what you are saying, but would like to be. Would you offer more or help me understand by saying this in another way?

Thank you friend,

It must be one of two things: my bad english, or the inaccesibility of the incredible wisdom my words contain. But knowing myself, it is probably the first.

Joking aside:

I have been ignorant toward food as I was a kid, then in college I became a vegetarian, been one for six years but that was just having a meatless diet, not necessarily a healthy one, than as I grew more knowlegable, I managed (I must give thanks here for the wonderful wife I have) to build a balanced life, with habits customary to my country, but having excesses in sugar, and processed foods, I grew overweight, than it followed the “nutritionist” wiseguy phase when I radically changed my eating habits, regardless my social environment, became lean and mean, (ascension from tamas to rajas) emotionally and mentally unprepared for this change, got into a crysis in my personal life, led to yoga again, and practicant by force of necessity, going through thought systems, philosophies, found that no such thing really can give any real safety, while all the time I was preserving my precious ego, taking good care of myself. All the time the focal point was me. I am irrelevant, now I know it, at least anything what comes after I am. So being a husband, male, middle aged, caucazian, hungarian, architect, vata, hot tempered, all of these are just circumstancial things, all part of my karma, and there only so I can grow into something I do not know yet, but that something is more important, more real, more alive than all the others. Eating, diet is just one of the many things I need to take care of, to serve that higher purpose. What is it ? To serve the spirit and the divine plan, as far as I am able. What is that plan ? I do not know. But in all these little things, there is great room for improvement. And the more I strive, the more I realize how hard it is, the more strenght I gain, the greeater the temptation to use it for the wrong reasons.

Diet and health is only relevant if it fits and serves ones’s karma. Being depressed, ill, and miserable is part of our karma, too. That is when we are tried to show our bests, instead of just fooling around. That is when the way beacomes essential, like air.

The talk we talk, the thoughts we think, those little idiosinchronic things of our everyday actions make us more dirty than the food we use.
But diet is important … and should be part of our practice. Yet, the physical body withers away in the end … do not give it too much importance. Happiness is not joy, it is only realizing the truth that everything is just as it should be.

[quote=Nichole;13034]
… as we purify them, what comes to the surface of minds and physical bodies is the pain, confusion, anger, fear, etc that was down below. It can become potently acute, but it arrives at the surface for us to finish off with [I]conscious [/I]practice and cleansing.

Namaste,[/quote]

I resonate completely with what the quote above
The debris of this [I]conscious [/I]practice and cleansing lays a path & you just know you have to tread that path?

yes… and in the end we shed only what needs to be shed. All loss is there only to make place for something better. :slight_smile: Be it an organ, a state, an emotion, a person we’ve grown attached to, a body, we shed it so we can build a better, more glorious one, meet better things, have relevant expereinces. That’s why the suffering, the crying, the hungry, and the thirsty are blessed, and happy, as they will be fulfilled.
Everything is, and will be allright.

Hey guys … Nichole, Fin, and all others present.

[quote=xela;13028]
I know that people need to do what is right for their bodies…and I have always thought of myself as someone who needed to eat meat because of my blood type, etc., but I think with slow steps and help it will be possible. I cannot live with the guilt anymore. Take Ana Forrest for example though…she is allergic to most grains and vegetables so she has to eat meat to survive. She kills her own meat…with a bow and arrow. I must commend her for taking responsiblity for what she is doing so unlike what the rest of Americans do.[/quote]

Dear Xela,
You are so right, people will spend lots on taking care of their much beloved pets ? but so little thought is given to the welfare of animals they eat.

I truly commend you on your views and send you my very best wishes to achieve your vegetarian diet.

On a more practical level:
Strongest animals on earth (elephants, horse, gorilla, water buffalo etc) don?t need to eat animal protein to produce it. I think it is a fallacy to maintain that animal protein is the best. A simple dish of rice & beans has all the protein that a human needs, in fact animal protein puts extra demand on the human kidneys & liver. Beside we as yogi?s already know food is not the only source of energy the very air we breath (prana) infuses energy.:wink:

Xela here are my thoughts generally on quality and type of food.
Paying attention to details such as eating food conducive to your body can help. Also I keep away from processed food, frozen food, leftovers, etc. Just don’t like them. My taste buds loves very fresh and pure foods.

The possibilities of enjoying delicious vegetarian food are endless:
Consider cooked vegetables of various kind, usually 2-3 types at a time, such as broccoli, cabbage, courgettes (zucchini), carrots, corn, cauliflower, brussel sprouts, fennel (anise), mushrooms, green leafy veggies, fresh peas snap beans, etc. Cooked in my case with vata - reducing spices, unrefined salt, ccocout oil, seasame oil, or ghee, perhaps some vegetable buillon or coconut milk. Add some Almonds (skin removed) and Cashew nuts. The result is delicious. Eat this with some couscous, Basmati Rice or Whole-wheat Chapattis or Pitta Bread. If your mouth is not watering by now ? it should be.:stuck_out_tongue:
Oh & why not start with a salad, e.g. red leaf lettuce, cucumber, 1/2 avocado, celery, cilantro, parsley, basil, perhaps some bell pepper, grated carrot, roasted pumpkins seeds, a little almond milk and olive oil as dressing, adjust to take account of your body type.

For main dish consider also Kidney Beans, soaked over night then allowed to cook (or boil) in a slow cooker for a few hours (you don?t have to be there when it is doing this) then near mid-day curry them with tumeric,cloves, cinnamon, ginger, garam masal, and other Indian spices ? this eaten with rice or chapattis with some lemon squeezed on it ?delicious!

I can suggest many many possibilities of healthy & energizing recipe that does not take a lot of time and is delicious, let me know your Ayurvedic Body Type ? I suspect you are Pitta/Vata.
Electric slow cooker is great for beans such as Kidney beans, Mung Beans, chickpea or [I]garbanzo [/I][I]beans ? all beans a great source of nutrients.[/I]

[I]Hope all this helps ? sorry for the disjointed response. If you want more info on food & recipes just let me know. I will post on the forum so others can also try.[/I]

[I]Best Wishes on your new Path?[/I]
[I]Namaste,[/I]
[I]Love,[/I]
[I]Fin[/I]

Thanks Nicole for bringing up this subject. I’ve been thinking about it quite a bit lately.

I wanted to stop eating meat nine years ago (for a variety of reasons) but ended up not being able to sustain it longer than a month. I was still new to yoga and not yet in touch with myself to the degree I am today. Still, the aspect of ahimsa (along with the other yamas and niyamas) remained values and ideals I aspired to live. I ate meat far less than before but also aspired to live with satya, aparigraha, santosa, etc.

This past year, I’ve deepened my practice and now don’t let a day pass without it. It made me more mindful of my words and actions and to think about the impact of the decisions I make every day (such as where that meal came from). Also, I found myself getting more in touch with my own body and along the way, found that I did not like how my body felt after eating meat - something just seemed wrong.

I ate meat less often and in the process, meat gave me up. Eventually realized I was eating a near-vegan diet but was feeling so great, I wanted to keep it going. Since then, I have absolutely zero cravings for meat and most dairy and feel better than I have since my 20s. More importantly, I feel better spiritually since my actions are aligned with my values. At the same time, I’ve found that it has helped me deepen my practice in ways I never imagined possible.

My wife tells me that any anger or fear I had before seems to have faded away and that now I always seem to be in a pleasant mood. She herself now eats almost no meat and may one day decide to walk the same path (if she does, it must be her choice).

I don’t go around telling people I am a vegetarian nor preech to anyone their diet choices. I just strive to live the values I subscribe to and try to spread the happieness and contentment it has given to me. We’ll see one day where it all leads.

Namaste,

K

PS: Earlier someone mentioned that Ayurveda can sometimes prescribe meat to rebalance doshas, etc. I am currently taking the correspondence course from the Ayurvedic Institute and it says that “Although ayurveda prescribes meat for use when the patient is extremely debilitated, there are several reasons why meat should be avoided by the healthy.” It then goes on for a page to list ayurvedic health reasons for why it should be avoided. Just wanted to pass this along.

Even materialist science and nutritionist came to the conclusion that having animal proteins is questionable, even from point of view of the selfish, physical body consciousness. There is no doubt about it. It is not environment friendly, it is not healthy, it’s ethic is questionable.

Personally I found that in my strive for brahmacharya, eating meat was a great hindrance.
Glad that I have given up that practice … now I can eat meat, if needs be. :slight_smile: For everything there is a reason, and a place in the world. Not eating meat, is good. Eating meat sometimes is also good. It depends entirely on personal karma and circumstances. Dieing of cancer is good if it turns one from a materialist sceptic to a true warrior of the spirit. Death is just a gate. Birth is just a gate. Joy and pain are just expereinces.

Love, and light, as my dear friend Neil uses to say. There is a time for being happy, there is a time for being sad. There is a time to live and there is a time to die. There is a time to enjoy, and there is a time to suffer. There is time to work, to fight, to desire, and there is a time to let go. There is a time to talk, and there is a time to remain silent.

Thank you so much for your kind words, Nichole.

I think this time is perfect then for me because I feel very ready and I know I have the support of my partner and also my yoga family at the studio. The deepening of my practice has brought about many emotions and I often find myself “freaking out” in class. The love I feel from everyone around me helps me break down my barriers and makes me a better person, not only for myself, but for the people around me.

After speaking with a vegan coworker of mine yesterday she gave me a few suggestions of vegetarian/vegan recipes. Although I do not have direct links we can google them. Once of them is Moosewood cookbooks and The Enchanted Broccoli Forest cookbook.

[quote=Nichole;13034]Xela,
I have been watching with curiosity since I first saw you mention that you were considering vegetarianism, somewhere, not sure exactly since we are friends in a few places. Perhaps it is the many months of committed and deepen Ashtanga practice paired with happiness and the love you have in your life; I would bet on all of that :wink:
I am hoping that you will you add links and any information you find in your own search in this thread because so many people are waking up to this for themselves. Mukunda has spoken to me, in his mentoring of my practice, about resulting nadis that are purified with right practice. As we purify them, what comes to the surface of minds and physical bodies is the pain, confusion, anger, fear, etc that was down below. It can become potently acute, but it arrives at the surface for us to finish off with [I]conscious [/I]practice and cleansing. It is the last step. I was working through something incredible this summer, and there is something similar between how your voice sounds to me here and to my own then. It is the watching for how to [I]be [/I]different in the world now that we know that we can’t go back to what we once did. lol, I just considered that maybe I won’t sound similarly voiced to you, even though you are to me! :smiley: I wish you all the best, as your way becomes clearer and clearer to you.

Namaste,[/quote]

Also…Fin…

How do I find out what my ayurvedic body type is?

[quote=xela;13048]Also…Fin…

How do I find out what my ayurvedic body type is?[/quote]

Xela,
Happy face when reading your posts.

You can determine your ayurvedic consitution by using this chart:

http://www.ayurveda.com/online%20resource/constitution.pdf

Don’t be surprised if you are a hybrid of two types, its actually pretty common. The thing I’ve been learning is that each of the doshas are more dominant during certain times of day, and certain seasons of the year.

Namaste,

XP

[quote=xela;13048]Also…Fin…

How do I find out what my ayurvedic body type is?[/quote]

The most accurate analysis of your Ayurvedic Body Type (Dosha) is given by an Ayurvedic practitioner using a pulse test. However a rough & ready analysis can be obtained with a Dosha Questionnaire; see the following web link for a questionnaire:

Chopra Dosha Quiz

There are many questioners available so a Goggle for “What is your Dosha”, or just “Dosha” will give more sites.

Other members might know of better sites?