An old story

@ Flex
Good analogy. Thanks.

@Surya
I do understand what the Buddha says about suffering. There is no misunderstanding.

No one has to procrastinate. You can begin the journey but without expectation. Taking the time to learn what you need and then practicing what you’ve learned. This is short term goal setting. You can know where you want to go, but you need to follow the steps in order to get there. If you don’t, like Flex said, you may not get the key to open the door. You cannot let the idea of where you want to be blind you to the process. The process is what gets you there. IMO

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;37391]What insult? I have said my opinion politely. On the contrary you have patronized me by saying “I am not surprised you have completely missed the point”

I have said nothing about Hinduism so far. You are the one bringing Hinduism up. I am offering my opinion on the story you quoted and the philosophy it teaches.

You need to get use to hearing other opinions.[/QUOTE]

Did I type Hinduism anywhere in this thread?

Joshu (A.D. 778-897) was a famous Chinese Zen Master who lived in Joshu, the province from which he took his name. One day a troubled monk approached him, intending to ask the Master for guidance. A dog walked by. The monk asked Joshu, “Has that dog a Buddha-nature or not?” The monk had barely completed his question when Joshu shouted: “MU!”

[QUOTE=omamana;37409]I kinda disagree and agree with all of you.

I think the journey is very important, we don?t want to reach the destination in desperation. However, you also need to keep your eye on the destination, otherwise you might get lost on the way, or sidetracked, or even give up.

You and I have touched on this before Yulaw, and although I agree with you to some extent, I don?t think sitting back and letting things happen as they may is good either, in my opinion it is lazy and uncommitted. I am on a lively journey and I want to suck up as much as I can, that does not mean I don’t enjoy and appreciate every step of the way :)[/QUOTE]

But it is not sitting back and letting something happen or being lazy, actually the boy in the story has a lot of work to do and he is willing to so it but he is in a rush to get to his destination which is not, IMO, the best way to get anywhere because you will mis many things and you could take much longer to get where you want to go because you are not watching where you are going.

It is focusing on what you are doing not focusing on where you want to go.

Basically my to simplify my take on this and this

If I want to get from point A to point F and focus only on point B I will miss the big hole at point B, the wall and point C the bridge that is out and point D and the beautiful vista and point E. The fact that I did not see B, C, D along the way because one was focusing on F will slow one down where if that person was paying attention to the path they would have seen them and dealt with them or learned from them as needed for their development.

There are no shortcuts.

Some methods you will get from point A to point F faster than others. I can go from point A to point F by walking, or I could go by driving and get there faster.

Obviously sensible people would opt for the latter.

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;37627]Some methods you will get from point A to point F faster than others. I can go from point A to point F by walking, or I could go by driving and get there faster.

Obviously sensible people would opt for the latter.[/QUOTE]

But you get the same result if you walk, run or drive if you are only looking at the destination and not the path. It is just that if you are driving you fall into to the first hole sooner than the person walking but it will take a lot longer to get your car out of the hole.

And it is neither obvious nor sensible to choose the quickest. If it is a super highway drive if it is a small foot path driving will only cause you to run into the trees.

And either way, walk or drive, if the bridge is out at point C and you are only looking at point F?. you find yourself in the river… it is just the car will cause you a lot more problems once you are in it

Namaste Yulaw,

Thank you for this beautiful story, I used it tonight in my class to demonstrate to my class that their yoga practice is not something like a MacDonalds drive-thru where you go and order and get, but that their yoga practice takes time to develop and that they must allow themselves that time by being committed to their effort. Some of them were losing patience with themselves, because they feel they are stuck. Your story came in very handy to move their minds beyond their own thinking. :slight_smile:

[QUOTE=Yulaw;37629]But you get the same result if you walk, run or drive if you are only looking at the destination and not the path. It is just that if you are driving you fall into to the first hole sooner than the person walking but it will take a lot longer to get your car out of the hole.

And it is neither obvious nor sensible to choose the quickest. If it is a super highway drive if it is a small foot path driving will only cause you to run into the trees.

And either way, walk or drive, if the bridge is out at point C and you are only looking at point F…. you find yourself in the river… it is just the car will cause you a lot more problems once you are in it[/QUOTE]

Yes, you will get the same result, but you will get it faster. You will not necessarily drive into the hole, if you remain conscious. Just as you will not necessarily not walk into the hole.

Faster methods do not necessarily mean they are lesser conscious.

Here is the most efficient, effective and quickest method for getting what you want

  1. First be absolutely clear what you want and visualise yourself as if you are already there at your goal. See it absolutely clearly. Make this into an affirmation you repeat to yourself everyday waking up and going to sleep.

  2. Then based on that work out what you need to do get there and what are the short term goals you need to pass. Then draw a plan of action.
    Your journey is simply the unfolding of your destination.

  3. Execute it with absolute single-mindedness, full immersion and dedication. The more intense your drive the faster you will get there.

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;37635]Yes, you will get the same result, but you will get it faster. You will not necessarily drive into the hole, if you remain conscious. Just as you will not necessarily not walk into the hole.

Faster methods do not necessarily mean they are lesser conscious.

Here is the most efficient, effective and quickest method for getting what you want

  1. First be absolutely clear what you want and visualise yourself as if you are already there at your goal. See it absolutely clearly. Make this into an affirmation you repeat to yourself everyday waking up and going to sleep.

  2. Then based on that work out what you need to do get there and what are the short term goals you need to pass. Then draw a plan of action.
    Your journey is simply the unfolding of your destination.

  3. Execute it with absolute single-mindedness, full immersion and dedication. The more intense your drive the faster you will get there.[/QUOTE]

But now you are taking this someplace the original post was not going.

It is saying that you have to remain aware of the path that is all.

And what I am saying is that if you are “focused” on the destination or the goal you will not see the path, you will not see the hole. Or the missing bridge since you are focused solely on the destination.

If you do what you are saying than you are not focused solely on the destination. If you only do step one of the process you are presenting then you will not get there. You need step 2 which you presented which is focusing on the path.

But in my opinion your step 3 misses the point all together. It is like you decide where you need to be you get the map and you know the way so you hope in the car and floor it to get to where you want to go without seeing the stop signs, the traffic lights, speed limits, or the police on the side of the road, the road narrowing or the missing bridges. You decided where you wanted to go, you decided how to get there but then you choose to use tunnel vision to drive there as fast as you can.

The journey is the destination. If you are clear about the destination, the journey is a natural unfolding. You will glide to the destination.

I don’t agree that step 3 misses the point. I never said execute it unconsciously. You still have to remain conscious of the obstacles on the way and there are many obstacles on the spiritual path(Patanjali mentions a dozen of them) but if you are conscious then you will easily overcome those obstacles. In fact the more single minded you are, fully immersed you are and dedicated you are to getting to your goal, the more effortless your path will be and better you will be able to deal with obstacles.

Here is the reality of what most people do on the spiritual path. They begin with a vague idea of what spirituality is. They then “start” a spiritual path by meditating a few times in the week for 10-15 min, the rest of the time they are out working, drinking, partying. After a while they begin to convince themselves they are now spiritual and tell everybody “I am spiritual, I am” They tell people they regularly connect to their higher self/god/spirit guides and go around advising people on spiritual matters. They think they are already there even before they have set of. They pretend to be spiritual but have nothing to show for their spirituality other than a mass of contradictions(much like a Christian)

The genuinely spiritual people such as our man Buddha begin with a clear idea of spirituality(enlightenment) then leave the world to find a spiritual master. The master gives them practices and they practice day and night for years on end, trying out different techniques to get different results. They finally attain their goal.

The pseudo-spiritual person is a pretender and nothing else.

Interesting… it now appears from what I just read of your last post, that although you initially claimed to disagree with the old story that you actually agree with it.

And I would say that at this point, IMO, you are turning this into your Crusade.

Yulaw, I’m going to take this thread in yet another direction perhaps, but I hope it is related.

Do you study any martial art? Do you find similarities to yoga? This quote you give would indicate to me that you do.

I ask this because I have always held my teacher in high esteem and learn not merely asana, but life skills from her.

I also would like to point out that in the “slower” journey, you may actually arrive more quickly because you have the opportunity for more feedback from your teacher and can ponder better choices if you are not in an all fired race to completion.

[QUOTE=Yulaw;37738]Interesting… it now appears from what I just read of your last post, that although you initially claimed to disagree with the old story that you actually agree with it.

And I would say that at this point, IMO, you are turning this into your Crusade.[/QUOTE]

Can you stop making disrespecful remarks like “turning it into your crusade” I am doing what everybody is doing in this thread, discussing my opinion or take on the story.

I do not agree with the story, I have already made that clear. I have made my view clear if you want to attain success you 1) Begin with a clear vision of what you want 2) Draw a plan of action on how to get what you want 3) Execute it with complete devotion.

The student says to the master he will work day and night in practicing what the master teaches. This is actually what I am saying you should do to succeed. The master however responds with some pseudo-wisdom that it will take him longer if he puts in more effort and energy.

Here is what this Yoga web site says on how to attain success on the path:

It is common knowledge that if we want to be successful at something, at anything, we must desire it continuously, and be willing to act to fulfill that desire every day. Think of the most successful people you know. Isn’t this what they have in common? If we look at their lives, we see that they have worked long and hard to achieve excellence in their chosen field. Behind that, an insatiable desire to succeed in their efforts kept them driving them forward, overcoming obstacles, working for years toward their objective. It is like that in yoga and religion, which is working toward divine union.

Jesus said, “Blessed are those who hunger and thirst after righteousness, for they shall be filled.” He also said, “Seek and you will find. Knock and the door will open to you.”

This is the magic formula – desire toward a goal, which spawns action toward that goal. Continuous desire is the fuel. Daily action is the fire. The word “continuous” is important, as is the word “goal.” Without these two operative functions, desires are scattered, actions are unfocused, and not much happens. With them, anything is achievable.

If we cultivate our desire to become continuously focused on a particular goal, such as the achievement of divine union, we are cultivating a special kind of desire. It is called “devotion.” Devotion is the continuous flow of desire toward an object or goal. We are all familiar with the concept of devotion. It is how we explain the success of great achievers: “Oh, she is so devoted to her work.” Or of great mystics: “Oh, she is so devoted to God.” It is no coincidence that devotion and greatness are found in the same place. The first invariably leads to the second. The second cannot happen without the first.

http://www.aypsite.org/12.html

Indeed this is what every succesful person has said. The Vedic Risis say it. Patanjali says it. Buddha says it. Steven Covey says it. Charles F. Hannel says it. The laws of energy conservation say it.

This entire creation is an act of sacrifice by the supreme being. It transformed itself to create this reality. If you want to get anyhing out of life you need to put effort in(no pain, no gain) The more effort you put in, the more you will get out of life.

If you think doing nothing or doing things lazily without commitment and intensity is going to get you success in life, then I can only say my friend, the very best of luck to you.

The journey is the destination. If you are clear about the destination, the journey is a natural unfolding. You will glide to the destination.

If you are referring to this post of Surya’s Yulaw, I would agree! I thought the very same thing when I read it.

SD why are you giving Steven Covey any credibility for anything? He’s in the same boat as Anthony Robbins… the whole… ‘hate your life, and be dissatisfied, and realize your not worth anything unless you change it, but even then your not worth anything, cause you need to change it some more, even though you’ve lost all your friend cause you can’t just be satisfied and grateful for who you are and who others are, and you need to be richer and more successful, otherwise how else can you be happy, that’s why we’re always unhappy’… (takes a deep breath in)… train of thought.

I own his 7 habits of highly effective people and have read his 8th habit. He does not say anywhere that wealth and money is the be all and end all of life, in fact he says the greatest qualities we should cultivate are happiness, love and compassion and wisdom etc. His 8th habit takes it one step further and he talks about spirituality.

His teachings are very similar to Yoga in that one should live by definite principles in life and not compromise on these basic principles. The notion that one should live according to principles is encapsulated in the teachings of living according to dharma.

In any case if one wants wealth there is no problem in that. Earning wealth is one of the legitimate aims of life.(I personally do not share it) To attain any goal you require devotion. Those who do not devote themselves to their goals in life end up with mediocre results.

I always believe an individual makes themselves rich, by making their wants few. The richest man is not he who has the most, but he who needs the least.

You need the least when you have attained the most :smiley:

A millionaire does not need anymore wealth. They can live a high standard of life. Unfortunately, no matter how many material possessions they accumulate, they will not increase their stock of happiness, love, compassion and wisdom. I am not a millionaire, I have a very average stock of material wealth, but it serves my purpose of living an alright standard of life(luxury compared to people living in the third world) I have realised long ago that inner-assets are more important than outer-assets. I have accumulated much in terms of intellectual assets, but even that has left everything to be desired. The true assets to be cultivated is the self. Your breadth of love, wisdom, courage and compassion.

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;37754]Can you stop making disrespecful remarks like “turning it into your crusade” I am doing what everybody is doing in this thread, discussing my opinion or take on the story.

I do not agree with the story, I have already made that clear. I have made my view clear if you want to attain success you 1) Begin with a clear vision of what you want 2) Draw a plan of action on how to get what you want 3) Execute it with complete devotion.

The student says to the master he will work day and night in practicing what the master teaches. This is actually what I am saying you should do to succeed. The master however responds with some pseudo-wisdom that it will take him longer if he puts in more effort and energy.

Here is what this Yoga web site says on how to attain success on the path:

http://www.aypsite.org/12.html

Indeed this is what every succesful person has said. The Vedic Risis say it. Patanjali says it. Buddha says it. Steven Covey says it. Charles F. Hannel says it. The laws of energy conservation say it.

This entire creation is an act of sacrifice by the supreme being. It transformed itself to create this reality. If you want to get anyhing out of life you need to put effort in(no pain, no gain) The more effort you put in, the more you will get out of life.

If you think doing nothing or doing things lazily without commitment and intensity is going to get you success in life, then I can only say my friend, the very best of luck to you.[/QUOTE]

I am only saying what I feel is true form my point of view. I am sorry you feel I am being disrespectful but I am not. Based on the plethora of posts that you have put up it does appear to me that you are on a bit of a crusade. But then that may be too harsh a word. I will say you most certainly appear to have an agenda and before you say anything I do not necessarily believe that agenda has anything to do with Hinduism.

Also I never said nor was it ever implied in the story that one was to do nothing, if you feel that was you may want to reread the original post and point out to me where it is said or implied, maybe I am missing something or could it be you are in fact missing the point of the story.

As to this thread I am basing my response on what you have posted in this thread. You originally stated you disagree with what was posted, although I really was not looking for a debate, but that is ok. You later made several posts that were, IMO, contradictory to that original statement and they most recent statement. Based on the posts in between it sounds as if you agree with the original post.

If it makes you happy I will respond as I originally thought would be the best way to respond to you “Of course you are right” Thank you.

But I will go back to the original (Chinese) thought I had and respond to you with “of course you are right” If that makes you happy.

[QUOTE=Alix;37742]Do you study any martial art? Do you find similarities to yoga? This quote you give would indicate to me that you do.

I ask this because I have always held my teacher in high esteem and learn not merely asana, but life skills from her.

I also would like to point out that in the “slower” journey, you may actually arrive more quickly because you have the opportunity for more feedback from your teacher and can ponder better choices if you are not in an all fired race to completion.

[/QUOTE]

Yes I do study Martial Arts, actually I am much more a martial artist than a Yoga person, and I also am doing a bit of studying on Zen/Chan Buddhism.

Also this is a very interesting statement that I learned the hard way from studying Chinese martial arts

[QUOTE=Alix;37742]
I also would like to point out that in the “slower” journey, you may actually arrive more quickly because you have the opportunity for more feedback from your teacher and can ponder better choices if you are not in an all fired race to completion.

[/FONT][/QUOTE]

When I first started training Taijiquan with my sifu I was in a hurry and I was getting nowhere really. I knew what I wanted, I knew how to train and I knew I was ready to learn. But it was not until I realized that my sifu knows much better than I do as to what I am ready to learn that I actually started to go where I wanted to go. I slowed down and started listening to what he was telling me and not assuming I knew what he was saying. When I went as his pace I got better at what he was trying to teach me. I have run into this same thing with other Chinese Martial Arts teachers and it appears to be much the same in Zen as well. And in the little Yoga I do I believe it was slower and steady wins the race than hurry up and get there.