An old story

Yoga Discussion General Yoga
#41

I will quote what I just said recently:

I do not agree with the story, I have already made that clear. I have made my view clear if you want to attain success you 1) Begin with a clear vision of what you want 2) Draw a plan of action on how to get what you want 3) Execute it with complete devotion.

The student says to the master he will work day and night in practicing what the master teaches. This is actually what I am saying you should do to succeed. The master however responds with some pseudo-wisdom that it will take him longer if he puts in more effort and energy.

I am not sure where you are getting this notion that I am agreeing with the story from. I have stated quite explicitly I disagree with it. If I agreed with it, why would I call it “pseudo-wisdom” ?

There is no agenda my friend. I am not part of any political party or religious group or secret society. I am just a very strong minded person and I have a high standard of discussion in that I can be very critical. The views I hold I hold very strongly and will passionately discuss them.

#42

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;37768]I will quote what I just said recently:

I am not sure where you are getting this notion that I am agreeing with the story from. I am stated quite explicitly I disagree with it. If I agreed with it, why would I call it “pseudo-wisdom” ?[/quote]

Good question, I don’t know, only you can answer that one. But based on my understanding of the story and your posts I feel that you claim to disagree but yet you agree.

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;37768]
There is no agenda my friend. I am not part of any political party or religious group or secret society. I am just a very strong minded person and I have a high standard of discussion in that I can be very critical.[/QUOTE]

I do not feel your agenda has anything to do with a political party or religious group or secret society. Sorry it is just the feeling I am getting from your copious posts.

But I did ask yuoa question in the last post

Show me where I said or where in the story is says that one was to do nothing?

#43

[QUOTE=Yulaw;37767]Yes I do study Martial Arts, actually I am much more a martial artist than a Yoga person, and I also am doing a bit of studying on Zen/Chan Buddhism.

Also this is a very interesting statement that I learned the hard way from studying Chinese martial arts

When I first started training Taijiquan with my sifu I was in a hurry and I was getting nowhere really. I knew what I wanted, I knew how to train and I knew I was ready to learn. But it was not until I realized that my sifu knows much better than I do as to what I am ready to learn that I actually started to go where I wanted to go. I slowed down and started listening to what he was telling me and not assuming I knew what he was saying. When I went as his pace I got better at what he was trying to teach me. I have run into this same thing with other Chinese Martial Arts teachers and it appears to be much the same in Zen as well. And in the little Yoga I do I believe it was slower and steady wins the race than hurry up and get there.[/QUOTE]
It is my personal belief that many martial arts and yoga have many things in common. It is further my belief that the instructors/gurus/sifu/senseis (choose your title) have reached a place of knowledge and enlightenment that is similar. I respect that and will do my best to follow along in my own humble way.

Thank you for sharing your experiences. It made me smile today. :slight_smile:

#44

Good question, I don’t know, only you can answer that one. But based on my understanding of the story and your posts I feel that you claim to disagree but yet you agree.

Haha, very Zen of you. No, you are the one who made the statement. So you are the one to answer that one. I have disagreed with the old story and you say I have agreed with it?

I think it is worth saying something about Zen as this story is from Zen and the strange answers you are giving to straight question are Zen. In that they are irrational. They make no sense. The tradition of Zen is based on the irrational, because Zen believes that the irrational will enlighten the student. So if you go to a Zen master and ask them what the meaning of something is, they will answer with some gibberish such as, “The meaning of life is blah blah blah” the philosophy behind this is of course to stop the rational mind so that the student uses the non-rational mind. Hence the use of Koans to give students instant enlightenment.

However, does this really work? I would say absolutely not. It is a pseudo-wisdom tradition. You go with a profound question and you get a stupid response. In the Vedic tradition if you go with a profound question you get a profound answer. Vedic masters always answer the questions of their students to clear their doubts. If you leave doubts in your students minds you leave them ripe for ignorance, confusion and error. This is what the Zen master does to their students. If the student goes complaining about their suffering, the Zen master may even laugh at them. Has that helped the student at all? Not at all it’s only made them feel much worse.

Your avatar gives it all away. The symbol of Zen is an incomplete circle, representing the incomplete teachings in the tradition. Zen is perhaps the most emptiest spiritual traditions out there(after all it teaches emptiness) It teaches you not to think, not to contemplate, it simply tells you to do. Do what? Household chores, tea ceremonies, gardening, killing in war. This is what you call wisdom? This will bring you enlightenment?
Do you know of any truly enlightened Zen masters? I sure don’t. Do you know of any truly great social progress made by Zen masters? I sure don’t.

#45

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;37772]Haha, very Zen of you. No, you are the one who made the statement. So you are the one to answer that one. I have disagreed with the old story and you say I have agreed with it?

I think it is worth saying something about Zen as this story is from Zen and the strange answers you are giving to straight question are Zen. In that they are irrational. They make no sense. The tradition of Zen is based on the irrational, because Zen believes that the irrational will enlighten the student. So if you go to a Zen master and ask them what the meaning of something is, they will answer with some gibberish such as, “The meaning of life is blah blah blah” the philosophy behind this is of course to stop the rational mind so that the student uses the non-rational mind. Hence the use of Koans to give students instant enlightenment.

However, does this really work? I would say absolutely not. It is a pseudo-wisdom tradition. You go with a profound question and you get a stupid response. In the Vedic tradition if you go with a profound question you get a profound answer. Vedic masters always answer the questions of their students to clear their doubts. If you leave doubts in your students minds you leave them ripe for ignorance, confusion and error. This is what the Zen master does to their students. If the student goes complaining about their suffering, the Zen master may even laugh at them. Has that helped the student at all? Not at all it’s only made them feel much worse.

Your avatar gives it all away. The symbol of Zen is an incomplete circle, representing the incomplete teachings in the tradition. Zen is perhaps the most emptiest spiritual traditions out there(after all it teaches emptiness) It teaches you not to think, not to contemplate, it simply tells you to do. Do what? Household chores, tea ceremonies, gardening, killing in war. This is what you call wisdom? This will bring you enlightenment?
Do you know of any truly enlightened Zen masters? I sure don’t. Do you know of any truly great social progress made by Zen masters? I sure don’t.[/QUOTE]

Ahh there is that agenda again.

How can I answer a question about something inside of you?

And this is not about Zen or Hinduism or any other religion or philosophy.

But I have asked you a question twice that was based on a statement you made that you have not answered so now I will ask it for the third and final time

[U]Show me where I said or where in the story is says that one was to do nothing? [/U]

And I do believe you base too much on symbolism and take it too literally. It is simply how that painted it with a brush many years ago. It could just as easily be an O and it is represented as such from time to time.

#46

[QUOTE=lotusgirl;37755]If you are referring to this post of Surya’s Yulaw, I would agree! I thought the very same thing when I read it.[/QUOTE]

In case you needed a reminder of what you said Surya to make us think you reversed your argument. Please explain, as it does indicate a reversal of your original opinion about the story.

#47

Haha, I have reversed nothing. It is easy for any objective reader to see I have maintained my position from the start. I only change my position if there is evidence to suggest contrary to my position.

I have so far been very critical of this old story and the Zen philosophy. I have called it pseudo wisdom and an emptiest tradition of the spiritual traditions.

It is easy to see by everybody I do not have a favourable opinion of it.

#48

Do you know of any truly enlightened Zen masters? I sure don’t. Do you know of any truly great social progress made by Zen masters? I sure don’t.

Thich Nhat Hahn perhaps? Although he would never consider himself that.
He has been one of the most influential Zen Buddhists as far as the west.

The symbol of Zen is an incomplete circle, representing the incomplete teachings in the tradition. Zen is perhaps the most emptiest spiritual traditions out there(after all it teaches emptiness) It teaches you not to think, not to contemplate, it simply tells you to do. Do what? Household chores, tea ceremonies, gardening, killing in war. This is what you call wisdom? This will bring you enlightenment?

The very name Zen means meditation. Meditation itself is the end. Through meditation you gain self knowledge. Thich Nhat Hahn teaches mindfulness in every step, in everything you do. That doesn’t sound empty to me. Quite the contrary. Intuitive understanding is the essence of Zen.

I teach a yoga class at the local Zen Center and I must tell you they are most kind gentle people I have met.

#49

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;37789]Haha, I have reversed nothing. It is easy for any objective reader to see I have maintained my position from the start. I only change my position if there is evidence to suggest contrary to my position.

I have so far been very critical of this old story and the Zen philosophy. I have called it pseudo wisdom and an emptiest tradition of the spiritual traditions.

It is easy to see by everybody I do not have a favourable opinion of it.[/QUOTE]

No, no it is not clear to everyone.

It is easy see that you have made a claim to have an unfavorable opinion of the quote but yet your posts agree with it… which is rather confusing but that leads me right back to where I originally was with you. You are missing the point, and I can see this by your posts and by the fact you will not answer my question and by the fact you referred to the old Zen master.

This of course leads me to another question you likely will not answer.

Show me anywhere in the first post it refers to or mentions an ?old Zen master? or ?Zen? for that matter?

Sorry this is how I feel but like I said, if it makes you feel better I will just say ?Yes, you are right? from this point on.

#50

No, no it is not clear to everyone.

It is easy see that you have made a claim to have an unfavorable opinion of the quote but yet your posts agree with it…

Perhaps, you would like point that post out :wink:

I teach a yoga class at the local Zen Center and I must tell you they are most kind gentle people I have met.

I went to Zen meditation a few times locally. I stopped after a while, because it was way too boring and empty. Nobody had any spark.

#51

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;37793] Perhaps, you would like point that post out :wink:
[/quote]

I cannot point out something inside of you, that you need to figure out for yourself.

and I still have two questions that you have not yet answered

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;37793]
I went to Zen meditation a few times locally. I stopped after a while, because it was way too boring and empty. Nobody had any spark.[/QUOTE]

Ahh the agenda… but of course… you are right.

#52

Oh I see now. So I have agreed with the old story inside me. But you say you can’t point out something inside me, then how do you know it is inside me :wink:

Ahh the agenda… but of course… you are right.

I think I will call this discussion quits before I lose anymore brain cells :lol:

#53

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;37802] Oh I see now. So I have agreed with the old story inside me. But you say you can’t point out something inside me, then how do you know it is inside me ;)[/quote

Actaully, no… you don’t see at all… and sadly I do not think you ever will.

oh and before I forget… but of course you are right

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;37802]
I think I will call this discussion quits before I lose anymore brain cells :lol:[/QUOTE]

And you accused me of being disrespectful… interesting and rather telling…

But then I am not surprised you are leaving the discussion since it is not helping your agenda.

These are both for you I feel the both fit you rather well…

“You cannot learn anything if you already feel that you know.”

“Preconceived ideas and prejudices always prevent us from seeing the truth.”

#54

But then I am not surprised you are leaving the discussion since it is not helping your agenda.

No, I am leaving the discussion because it is not making any sense anymore. You posted a story. Fine. Then we commented on it. Some did not completely agree with it, others did. I said that I agreed with the student that you have to work hard to get success. Then you say I actually agreed with the story and went against what I originally said. I ask you to cite me where I agreed. You respond, “Ask within yourself”

Now either cite the post where I am changing my position and agreeing with the story or lets call it quits. I do not have time for playing mind games with you.

#55

The journey is the destination. If you are clear about the destination, the journey is a natural unfolding. You will glide to the destination.

Here it is!

#56

Right, and how does this agree with the story?

You said it is the journey that counts. I am saying that one should begin with a clear vision of destination(goal) and the journey how to get there is simply a natural unfolding of the destination(plan of action) and then one fully devotes oneself with hard work and effort to the plan of action to get to the destination(execution)

I illustrated with an example. If you want to become physically healthy you first must be clear about your goal and what kind of physical health you are. For example being naturally fit, flexible, agile, toned. Then how to get there is worked out from the goal itself. So to be naturally fit, flexible and agile the best plan of action could be Yoga and healthy lifestyle and diet with drinking plenty of water and eating fruit and veg. Then once you have a plan of action you simply execute it with full devotion. In this case working very hard on your Yoga asanas, religiously sticking to a healthy diet and lifestyle and abstaining from anything that will compromise your goal.

In other words I am agreeing with the student in the story and not the master(this is pretty clear to any objective reader, as I’ve explictly stated it several times :D) The student has a clear vision. He wants to become the best martial artist in his land. He has a clear plan of action he will sought the best teacher and work very hard day and night, harder than the rest of his students. He has full devotion.

In my book this student resolve, plan of action and devotion is a sure-fire path to success. The master, however, gives him some pseudo-wisdom to dampen his zeal. The masters philosophy is a sure fire way to failure or mediocrity.

Now is it clear I do not agree with the old story and its message? :wink:

#57

I adapted the original story to show what a real master would say:

A young boy traveled across Japan to the school of a famous martial artist. When he arrived at the dojo he was given an audience by the Sensei
"What do you wish from me?" the master asked.
“I wish to be your student and become the finest kareteka in the land,” the boy replied. “How long must I study?”
“Ten years at least,” the master answered.
“Ten years is a long time,” said the boy. “They say slow and steady wins the race, how long would it take then?”
“Twenty years,” replied the master.
“Twenty years! They say that if you do nothing everything gets done. How long will it take then ?”
“Next life” was the master’s reply.
“How is it that it will take so long when I am following the teaching of Wu-Wei ?” the boy asked.
“The answer is clear. You will only get what you put in. No pain, no gain”

#58

Oh my Surya…you have so continued to miss the point. I cannot tell you how much I disagree with with your adaptation. Go ahead and get there as fast as you can, Go ahead! When you get there, let me know what you find and what you’ve learned. When you bypass the leaning process, meaning getting from A to F as quickly as you can, you have not EARNED anything because you have not learned anything. The journey gives you the wisdom to be able to get to and EMBRACE the destination. I, for one, would never want to miss out on any part of my journey. I continue to learn and earn throughout the journey. When I reach the destination, I have earned it and can then embrace it. Why would you want to miss out on anything?

#59

[QUOTE=lotusgirl;37858]Oh my Surya…you have so continued to miss the point. I cannot tell you how much I disagree with with your adaptation. Go ahead and get there as fast as you can, Go ahead! When you get there, let me know what you find and what you’ve learned. When you bypass the leaning process, meaning getting from A to F as quickly as you can, you have not EARNED anything because you have not learned anything. The journey gives you the wisdom to be able to get to and EMBRACE the destination. I, for one, would never want to miss out on any part of my journey. I continue to learn and earn throughout the journey. When I reach the destination, I have earned it and can then embrace it. Why would you want to miss out on anything?[/QUOTE]

Call me crazily optimistic, but I believe SD WILL get the point on this one day. I just have a hunch .

#60

Another analogy to consider:

Say you want to get an A in math. You see yourself getting that A. You want so badly to get that A and be the best in your class. To get there faster, you copy someone’s take home exam and low and behold, you get that A! Wow! You reached your destination! But what have you learned in the process? Absolutely nothing! Do you really know the material in that take home exam? No. So you may have that A you wanted, but you certainly aren’t the smartest in the class. There are no shortcuts in life. We all learn, and learn a lot from our mistakes.

I remember my son doing his project for the science fair in 6th grade. We sat down and discussed his idea for the project and how he was going to conduct the experiment, what to use, etc. He had a wonderful idea and went on to do the experiment and show his results. It had something to do with hot air rising and he made a hot air balloon and used a hair dryer and what not. His display was crude and elementary but it worked and he proved his point. When we got to the science fair and saw some of the other displays, we were disheartened. They were magnificent! Filled with all kinds of high tech stuff that looked very professional. Well, the reason they looked that way is because the parents didn’t allow their child to do it. They took over. They desired to win! They wanted their child to take home the first place ribbon! When it came time for the judging (and I will tell you, the judges were scientists and engineers from Proctor and Gamble and our local energy company) the children whose displays were top notch, could not explain their experiment. It looked good, but they really didn’t know what they did or how it was done. My son, whose display really looked like a 6th grader did it, proudly explained his hypothesis, theory, process and results. And guess what? He took home 3rd place out of about 100 students. Point is Matt (my son) knew the material and did the project himself. All by himself. No short cuts. Did he have his sites set on taking home the prize? Probably. But he painstakingly went through each step over and over so he could understand and explain the material. So who got there faster? My son or the kids whose parents did the project for them?