An old story

Yoga Discussion General Yoga
#61

In the story that you share who did win the first prize in the end?

It all depends on your goal. If your goal is to get an A then all you need to do is memorize a lot of information, go into the exam and reproduce that information. The A is yours. To be honest you should not bother all that much with exams etc, because at the end of the day they are just preliminaries for landing a particular job. When I did my GCSE’s they were the most important, after I did my A levels they were forgotten. Then what I did my BA my A levels were forgotten. One of my Hindu friends did not do quite well in his BA and was upset. To which I told him it does not matter, do better in your MA and your BA will matter less. If you have such a practical mindset you will succeed in life. It all depends on what you want from life.

Do you have any right to judge somebody who wants an A or a top prize? No more than they have the right to judge you for what you want. Now my goal in life is enlightenment and this means pure knowledge, pure mind and pure love. Why on earth would I want to delay that and set me sights on the trivial triumpths before that? The truth is if any of us here could have instant enlightenment at the flick of a switch we would all take it. I mean who would not want to be instantly liberated from suffering, and have all their faculties activated, and the infinite potential of knowledge, love and consciousness awakened with them.

The more science and technology proceeds the more easier enlightenment will become. Remember Yoga is an evolving science. The current Yogic methods are low-tech, in the future we may just have to attach a chip and become enlightened, or undergo a rewiring of the brain or a splicing of new DNA, or engineering of the pineal gland. The new research in such technology as biofeedback machines where one can learn how to control their body responses through the feedback is also a novel method. This would have taken years under the old method. The fastest way of course is to have your Kundalini awakened by somebody who is already enlightened through direct transmission. The basic point is that enlightenment will become more and more easier in the future.

Like I said if you are thirsty you either get a glass of water from the tap and quench it or you walk ten miles to the nearest well and quench it. If you had an option, you would go for the former.

I think the problem is you mystify enlightenment when it really is a very scientific reality that obeys the scientific law of cause and effect. You do the experiment, you get the result.

#62

Hi lotusgirl,

Sounds like a lesson in the unfairness of life.I remember cutting a corner on school sports day while miles ahead of the pack only to be penalised and had to go back.I came second btw. I guess rules are rules though.

I guess if you’re good at something you don’t need to prove it to anyone else. Being good as well as knowiing it is enough …Some of the most gifted of people in a league of their own often don’t seek to broadcast their talents.Mozart ,Bach & Einstein had no competitors.And obviously if they’re competing with anyone, it’s with themself.Folk like climb dangerous rockfaces without safety ropes solo are often like that.Some of the satisfaction may partly be derived from being able to prove it to themself.

It’s ironic that those kids often labelled day-dreamers by their teachers at school were often the most capable.Perhaps it’s the case that qualities like quiet reflection & introspection or even creativity are sometimes not promoted or misinterpreted or that the teachers are simply dull and uninspiring.

The world is often judged so much on appearances.The story you gave perhaps illustrates how the parents want to look good even at the expense of doing little Johnny’s work themselves.And the world is full of judges.

#63

I think one thing we should learn from the Indians and that is how succesful they are in the fields of IT, business and science today, even taking leading positions. Their secret? Go to India and you will find just how much the value of education is drilled into them and how they work their ass off studying. Sure, a lot of it is rote learning, but in the end they get what they want a lucrative job with a massive salary.

The real learning does not take place at school it takes place when you begin your spiritual jouney. Modern schools are nothing more than training grounds to place yourself in the work world and keep this oppressive system of capitalism running. A lot of what you are taught in school is substandard.

#64

@ Core
Yes a lesson in unfairness, but remember, my son who did all the work himself. He won a ribbon. The others whose parents did the work did not receive one.

And thank you for sharing your story too! I can remember doing that once or twice myself!

The great masters compete with no one but themselves. So true!

@ Surya
The first 2 ribbons also went to students who actually did the work. And it was obvious they did the work. No one who took the shortcut of having their parents do the project won anything.

The real learning does not take place at school it takes place when you begin your spiritual jouney. Modern schools are nothing more than training grounds to place yourself in the work world and keep this oppressive system of capitalism running. A lot of what you are taught in school is substandard.

Ah, but the knowledge you gain through school prepares you for the spiritual journey. I say this w/ a qualifying…but you can become enlightened in the blink of an eye at anytime without formal education. Those are but a few. But for most, it is a much longer process. Lifetimes longer. I do believe you accelerate the learning process during your spiritual journey. But again, it goes back to process and foundation. You need to go through the process and have the foundation set in order get to your destination. This part is called the journey.

It all depends on your goal.

Yes!  And that was my point exactly!  My son had no long range goal other than completing his project the best he could.  He took third place.  The others whose parents did the work had the goal of getting the ribbon, not learning from the project.

Don’t you see the difference? I think it is clear as day.

#65

India has always been big on education and had highly educated people and work-force, at least for those that get the access…Mathematics, IT & software engineering ,science & technology i agree with you, they all excell at it.They maybe just have’nt developed the infrastructure or economy sufficiently yet. However it is probably one of the tiger-economies of that region,and now Japan’s wealth has levelled off and certainly China has now well over-taken and is well on the ascendency.America certainly taks to them a different way, i mean governement officials, and China certainly takes no nonsense from them anymore.China can do whatever it likes now. I’ve speculated that the global recession may have been partly to do with the re-distribution of wealth, a more equal shhift towards the East. The planet is no longer so big anymore with globalisation of culture and so on.

Obviously doing well at school or reaching higher education does’nt necessarily securely map out you life though i think can play a significant role.I remember an indian girl at school,head female prefect, worked hard as Indians usually do(just look at the corner shops in the uk open to all hours.They are hardworking ,they work much longer hours as do may in Asia.The idea of a 35 or 40 hour week is probably seen as a bit of a joke to them.The Japanese for instance take their work incl. their clients to the pub after “work”;their work ethic is simply way stronger though there are downsides to their culture obviously also)Anway this girl at school who seemed to do everything right, I later learnt died of skin cancer at 21 or 22.

I agree with you SD alot of what you learn in school develops some faculties but not others.One of the main problems with academia though is that it cultivates living in the head too much as i’m sure you will now understand, especially if you engage in deep meditation.It’s possible you yourself have arrived at this realisation,possibly understood that intellect is just one faculty of the mind & simply a tool or one aspect of consciousness and that the yoga has brought you to this place, as it were.I do think spiritual science is the next frontier and part of our real-world devlopment as human beings may depend on it.Research departments in universities might be a start but the real work begins with each of us…I remember reading Sri Aurobindu talking about how personal and collective evolution (even beyond biology) are both connected, indeed inseparable.This notion was a major practical as wellas philosophical yoga milestone for me.A world full of Jesuses and Budhhas is not impossible.

#66

The first 2 ribbons also went to students who actually did the work. And it was obvious they did the work. No one who took the shortcut of having their parents do the project won anything.

That is how it should be. If the child did not do the work, he cannot be rewarded for it.

Ah, but the knowledge you gain through school prepares you for the spiritual journey. I say this w/ a qualifying…but you can become enlightened in the blink of an eye at anytime without formal education. Those are but a few. But for most, it is a much longer process. Lifetimes longer. I do believe you accelerate the learning process during your spiritual journey. But again, it goes back to process and foundation. You need to go through the process and have the foundation set in order get to your destination. This part is called the journey.

There is no real learning at all until the spiritual journey begins. Before that stage there is nothing but concepts. We learn nothing new by thinking, we simply recycle old thoughts. However, when we begin the spiritual journey real shifts take place in our consciousness which bring new understandings and knowledge that are our direct experience. This is actual knowledge.

In modern schools you learn absolutely nothing spiritual. You are simply given loads of concepts that are useful in the workworld. More specifically useful to your employer who exploits you.

Spirituality is a commitment. It is something you have to be ready for. As soon as you’re ready it becomes your life. It cannot just be a part of your life, it has to be your life. You must eat, drink, think, breath, sleep spirituality.
What is spirituality? Practice, practice, practice. The goal is not far for those who have this devotion.

Yes! And that was my point exactly! My son had no long range goal other than completing his project the best he could. He took third place. The others whose parents did the work had the goal of getting the ribbon, not learning from the project.

Don’t you see the difference? I think it is clear as day.

The difference is, with all due respect to your and your son, your son did the best he could do. But did he push himself to his absolute limits? Nobody remembers third place or even second place. Everybody remembers first place. In whatever you do you need to be the best. You need to attain the best. You must always push yourself to do one better than last time.

Strive for the infinite says Swami Chinmayananda. Set your goal as such that you may never get there. Then you will strive constantly all your life and grow constantly.

#67

But I see you didn’t leave… but I suspected your agenda would not allow it after my post so I am not all that surprised.

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;37804]
Now either cite the post where I am changing my position and agreeing with the story or lets call it quits. I do not have time for playing mind games with you.[/QUOTE]

Just re-read your own posts with an open mind and you will see it for yourself.

but you know… I am still waiting for answers to the questions I asked you.

#68

You really need to rad these and understand them

“You cannot learn anything if you already feel that you know.”

“Preconceived ideas and prejudices always prevent us from seeing the truth.”

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;37808]I adapted the original story to show what a real master would say:

A young boy traveled across Japan to the school of a famous martial artist. When he arrived at the dojo he was given an audience by the Sensei
"What do you wish from me?" the master asked.
“I wish to be your student and become the finest kareteka in the land,” the boy replied. “How long must I study?”
“Ten years at least,” the master answered.
“Ten years is a long time,” said the boy. “They say slow and steady wins the race, how long would it take then?”
“Twenty years,” replied the master.
“Twenty years! They say that if you do nothing everything gets done. How long will it take then ?”
“Next life” was the master’s reply.
“How is it that it will take so long when I am following the teaching of Wu-Wei ?” the boy asked.
“The answer is clear. You will only get what you put in. No pain, no gain”[/QUOTE]

You really don’t get it do you

#69

Hi Lotusgirl,

I think learning that life is unfair or can be soometimes is part of growing up,maturing as an adult.Some things things may well be outiside your control or influence so you learn if you’ve got any sense to try and cope with it or manage.It’s tough but there’s not much you can do sometimes other than try to change your perspective.It is interesting that from a spiritual perspective many would say that all things, incl. life may happen for a reason.When they talk about karma they talk about accumulated merit or that life’s struggles, we all have them , may just be lessons we can learn from and grow as human beings.It’s how we react to and deal with life’s lessons and experiences that shape us as people.I’m not saying anything new here.Failing spectacularly can sometimes be a good foundation for eventual suceess.What is it Hnery Ford said? something like -that Sucess is 99% faiilure.

I rermember something SD wrote , I resonated with, that sometimes you get folk who have had the most crippling disadvantages in life and destitute upbringing and so on but against all the odds, as life can be quite fickle at times in terms of the hands folk can be dealt, they completely turn their life around 360% and become ‘successful’(or happy), however you wish to defiine that.Indeed sometimes suffering and/or failure can impel us on, motivate us to succeed, to try harder and eventually overcome our limitations,whether they are real or perceived.The mind and the human will can be extraordinarily powerful that way.Of course It’s always good to see the glass full, a cliche i know.

Alot of people I think may just settle for mediocrity because it or their life rather can be easier, or so they think,that way and they don’t have to try too hard.

#70

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;37864]I think one thing we should learn from the Indians and that is how succesful they are in the fields of IT, business and science today, even taking leading positions. Their secret? Go to India and you will find just how much the value of education is drilled into them and how they work their ass off studying. Sure, a lot of it is rote learning, but in the end they get what they want a lucrative job with a massive salary.

The real learning does not take place at school it takes place when you begin your spiritual jouney. Modern schools are nothing more than training grounds to place yourself in the work world and keep this oppressive system of capitalism running. A lot of what you are taught in school is substandard.[/QUOTE]

Things to consider with the above statement

  1. labor in India is much cheaper in the US so IT companies moved there

  2. the majority of the IT people in India got their education in the USA.

  3. You are talking about a Capitalist system that is driven by money and profit and the IT companies saw a cheap labor force and went with it

Any other view is delusional, sorry, I know the truth hurts sometimes?

Now if you want a post about the success of Indian and IT I suggest you start one but this has nothing to do with this post

oh wait… of course you are right

#71

It is not just that. It is cheap and highly skilled labour. The skills, drive and general work ethic Indians have makes them attractive to global IT companies. Indians are well known to be excellent in this field. You are mistaken that the majority of Indians get their education in the USA, they get their education in India’s famous IIT’s etc and then they go to the USA because job opportunities are better. However, recently there has been a change in that trend, with many Indians now returning back to India and joining Indian IT companies.

It is not just a case of outsourcing, India also has its own major IT giants which are considered to be global powers. It is also a myth that India’s economy is thriving today because of outsourcing. In fact, the truth is Indias economy is thriving because all of its own industries are booming. Mainly steel, biotechnology, information technology and media. India has an advantage over China, because China’s economy is almost completely dependent on foreign trade and still largely today is based on manufacture of cheap goods. India, has adoped another economic policy to develop all industries synergistically which is a slower and painstreaking process, but it is showing results today. Even the instructure of India, which has always been abysmal is changing. Recently Delhi opened up a state of the art terminal at Indira Gandhi airport, one of the biggest and most advanced in the world. It also worth checking out the Metro it has built which is state of the art. There are very flashy malls and modern skyscrapers appearing all over India. So India is very much on a march to superpowerdom.

But what is truly sad this is based on the exploitative system of capitalism. What really needs to be done is the 70% villagers living in India need to focussed on. They need to be given the basic necessities to make them self-sufficient. They need clean drinking water, schools and colleges, electricity, hospitals etc. The capitalist drive of the Indian government completely ignores them. Just as China ignores its rural population. Capitalism is only interested in profit and the rich. There will be no true prosperity on this planet and spiritual growth as long as capitalism remains.

#72

Also about the ribbons.

At some point the ribbons can stop and the work can & will speak for itself.

Hehehe…

#73

There is no real learning at all until the spiritual journey begins.

    IMO, this is not actually true.  It is just a different kind of learning.  You take the skills you've been taught in school and apply them.  Education lays the foundation.  Do you think for a moment you would be embarking on a spiritual journey without the knowledge you gained along the way from school.  It is what you learned that peaked your interest in spirituality, is it not?

I don’t think any of us are saying you cannot have a destination in mind. You need to or how would you know where to go? It’s like graduation. Everyone wants to graduate. Of course that is your goal. Your destination. But the journey of getting there is what gets you there. Along the journey, you have learned coping and social skills, have made new friends, changed your mind on what you want to do after high school. These are all very important and are more important than the destination itself. You’d never get to your destination without them, i.e. coping and social skills.

#74

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;37875]It is not just that. It is cheap and highly skilled labour. The skills, drive and general work ethic Indians have makes them attractive to global IT companies. Indians are well known to be excellent in this field. You are mistaken that the majority of Indians get their education in the USA, they get their education in India’s famous IIT’s etc and then they go to the USA because job opportunities are better. However, recently there has been a change in that trend, with many Indians now returning back to India and joining Indian IT companies.

It is not just a case of outsourcing, India also has its own major IT giants which are considered to be global powers. It is also a myth that India’s economy is thriving today because of outsourcing. In fact, the truth is Indias economy is thriving because all of its own industries are booming. Mainly steel, biotechnology, information technology and media. India has an advantage over China, because China’s economy is almost completely dependent on foreign trade and still largely today is based on manufacture of cheap goods. India, has adoped another economic policy to develop all industries synergistically which is a slower and painstreaking process, but it is showing results today. Even the instructure of India, which has always been abysmal is changing. Recently Delhi opened up a state of the art terminal at Indira Gandhi airport, one of the biggest and most advanced in the world. It also worth checking out the Metro it has built which is state of the art. There are very flashy malls and modern skyscrapers appearing all over India. So India is very much on a march to superpowerdom.

But what is truly sad this is based on the exploitative system of capitalism. What really needs to be done is the 70% villagers living in India need to focussed on. They need to be given the basic necessities to make them self-sufficient. They need clean drinking water, schools and colleges, electricity, hospitals etc. The capitalist drive of the Indian government completely ignores them. Just as China ignores its rural population. Capitalism is only interested in profit and the rich. There will be no true prosperity on this planet and spiritual growth as long as capitalism remains.[/QUOTE]

Denial is not just a river in Egypt :slight_smile:

You still have not answered my questions and you really do not know anything about China do you… interesting.

Let me say this again before I complain to a moderator if that is possible on this site.

Surya

You are way off topic, if you wish to discuss the topic of IT in India I suggest you start a topic on it and discuss it. This thread has nothing to do with IT in India. If you cannot win an argument it is not acceptable to change the topic to fit your agenda.

#75

No, actually if it was true that school learning makes you spiritual, then everbody would be spiritual by now. I became spiritual out of personal suffering and nihilism I was experiencing in this world. I studied Philosophy as it was the only academic subject that I had an interest in, but I then realised like everything else in the world it is also bereft of spirit.

I am not a spiritual person. I am an intellectual person. I will tell you when I become a spiritual person.

I will tell you now as long as you remain in the same baseline state of consciousness you are no different to any other wordly person. Why do you think I do not call myself spiritual? Because spirituality is actually all about the development of your consciousness. If you are seeing the world just as most people see it, then you are at the same level as most people.

Let us not pretend for a moment that just because we talk about Yoga, Vedanta, Buddhism and metaphysics and meditate and do Yoga that we are spiritual. We only become spiritual when we begin the journey of spirituality properly. Simply meditating once a day, going to Yoga once a week, eating vegetarian food and socialising with new-age friends talking about chakras and 2012 is not genuine spirituality.

What Buddha did was genuine spirituality. He left his kingdom, sought out spiritual masters who taught him various techniques. He practiced, practiced and practiced. He mastered one technique after the other and after 10 years he reached enlightenment.

When I am doing the same thing as Buddha I will call myself spiritual.

#76

[QUOTE=Yulaw;37878]Denial is not just a river in Egypt :slight_smile:

You still have not answered my questions and you really do not know anything about China do you… interesting.

Let me say this again before I complain to a moderator if that is possible on this site.

Surya

You are way off topic, if you wish to discuss the topic of IT in India I suggest you start a topic on it and discuss it. This thread has nothing to do with IT in India. If you cannot win an argument it is not acceptable to change the topic to fit your agenda.[/QUOTE]

Hmm, you brought up this topic of IT in India based on cheap labour. I responded to it. I am starting to think I should ignore you. You are disrespectful to me, you never actually respond to anything with a coherent response that I can engage with and seem to speak in riddles. In fact I am going to ignore you now.

#77

Hey Core,

I do appreciate your kind gentle words about life. Yes, it can really be unfair at times and is part of the growing up thing. And there are people who feel that middle of the road is OK. But with reference to my son, he put forth all his effort and that earned him a 3rd place ribbon. My son and all of us were so happy for him! He still keeps that ribbon. Fact is he tried his best and took third. He learned. I was and still am very proud of him for who he is and what he’s done with his life. So can you look at his 3rd place ribbon and think of it as a failure? Yes, if you only had your eyes set on taking first place. My sons eyes were on doing his best. And that’s OK.

I do like the Henry Ford quote BTW. I think it is very true. I know I have learned much from my mistakes. And since I am more than likely quite a bit older than the majority of you, I’ve made many!

While I do think people can overcome obstacles in their lives and I know of many who have, there are those who cannot. They cannot for whatever reason, be it environmental, social conditioning, isolation, mental illness or what not. While we can celebrate those who do, we must also be aware of those who don’t and find answers as to why. I came from a dysfunctional family. My father was an alcoholic and life in our home was not anywhere near normal. We got little if any attention from either parent. My parents divorced when I was about 20. When I married and had children, I expressed my love for them and nurtured them. I always tell them I love them. I drink occasionally, but have never over indulged. Pretty much a normal life. On the flip side I have a sibling who struggles with alcohol and drugs, going from one job to another and is divorced. So why was I able to overcome the obstacles of my upbringing and my sibling not? Like I said, there are many factors that come into play. So I guess, I can agree partially with what you say. But I don’t believe it can be said definitively for all.

#78

Many might be able to give you directions to Kansas, but fewer still may have actually made the journey.

So knowledge is useful and indeed often necessary for most but you still need right action to follow it through.I was’nt sure what to make of the Gita when i first read it.And i asked myself but how might this apply to living to yoga practice or how is it you apply the things they mention.Now i get it’s message better, i think.One thing knowing the tools of yoga.Quite another altogether actually applyiing and putting them into practice… This is applied spiritual science.The moment you think a negative thought it has,allegedly, an effect;.It might not be so wholesome.The great experiement is in your actions usually expressed in your living.

I feeel Surya Deva had a good point.All the learning at school just prepares you for the kind of world we live in ,one one that’s often pretty competitive and often false.Folk will elbow their way ahead of others if they have to and the prevailing paradigm of survivial capitalism tends to prey on the weaker and benefit the stronger, & often guilty of leaning towards pleasinig just yourself

The learning at school is largely concepts or tools of logic and numbers which can be useful, that may prepare folk to build safe bridges or aeroplanes.It’s not true wisdom, of course.I think a sound academic education can give you skills like- ability to work on your own, discipline and thinnk outside the box, always question accepted wisdom or truth.Whether your degree is in history or economics & business they generally equip you with life-skills.But they are for the way the world is, not necesarily what it could be.

#79

No, actually if it was true that school learning makes you spiritual, then everbody would be spiritual by now.

I never said school learning makes you spiritual. That was taken totally out of context. I said it lays the foundation.

Let us not pretend for a moment that just because we talk about Yoga, Vedanta, Buddhism and metaphysics and meditate and do Yoga that we are spiritual. We only become spiritual when we begin the journey of spirituality properly. Simply meditating once a day, going to Yoga once a week, eating vegetarian food and socialising with new-age friends talking about chakras and 2012 is not genuine spirituality.

Is this in reference to me?  I certainly hope you are not referring to me.  I never professed to be enlightened or truly spiritual.  I'm learning, each day.  Each day I get closer and closer just like many.

What Buddha did was genuine spirituality. He left his kingdom, sought out spiritual masters who taught him various techniques. He practiced, practiced and practiced. He mastered one technique after the other and after 10 years he reached enlightenment.

When I am doing the same thing as Buddha I will call myself spiritual.

As will I.
#80

Hi Lotusgirl,

I think we’ve all had our challenges in life, whether we are young or old and odds are will continue to do so.Anyone that reaches thirty chances are they’ve had a few trying things going on their life.Indeed the older you get the more you notice folk you may have been at school with or known after died somehow.Quuite a few folk i have known met death somwhere along the lines, be it mis-adventure,illness,oveer-dose,suicide or whatever.Sometimes there is no rhyme or reason. Things just happen pr are the way they are.I have learnt to try not to see myself as victim. I sometimes don’t feel the need the need to explain to people some of my actions or my life as chances are folk are unlikely to understand anywhere even if they were interested.

I am glad you have been able to overcome any difficulties or challeneges you might have had. I have always seen children as loving their parents in as much as the other way around. Kids tend to give more than we do as adults.