I pose this rhetorically knowing that of course some may chose to answer.
I pose this to myself first (and have for the past 1700 posts) then to the collective.
This is a yoga forum. By the very nature of walking that path and being members here have we not accepted a raised bar? What of neophytes who lurk in the shadows, only reading and digesting that which is written. What do we model in our behaviors relative to the efficacy of our practice?
David, our fearless leader, ascribes to a very tolerant position relative to the board. And in his tolerance we are given the reigns of self-moderation - just as we are given those reigns with asteya (non-stealing), aparigraha (non-coveting), and brahamacharya (wise use of creative force).
All views are welcome here, though that welcome is not wed to carte blanche agreement. And clearly some present their position(s) in a variety of ways. If we are agitated in that process is not our first mission to look at the reflection rather than leak and feed an energy we find unpalatable?
The opportunities abound to be the change rather than be the same.
Someone has to take the higher ground and that someone has to be us.
Yes I absolutely agree. In fact Yoga developed in a culture where free thinking and tolerance for all philosophical positions in life was tolerated(as varied as skepticism, materialism, idealism, dualism, nihilism, relativism, non-dualism, theism, realism, ritualism) In fact if you look at the intellectual life of ancient India it was incredibly violent in just how much different schools attacked each other. However, this rarely, if ever, turned into actual physical violence. It was accepted convention that everybody is allowed to form their own opinions and their own viewpoints, but they would have to be able to defend their viewpoint at the same time. The honesty was so great that in the formal debates held in India if one was to lose against another school, they would end up joining the winning school.
This kind of honesty and love for truth is sadly missing in todays time.
As WE give those reigns via tolerance, we also must realize that most of us suck at riding horses. However, given enough support, people will become great riders, in time, if we create the space for such transformation.
[quote=InnerAthlete;33361]And clearly some present their position(s) in a variety of ways. If we are agitated in that process is not our first mission to look at the reflection rather than leak and feed an energy we find unpalatable?
The opportunities abound to be the change rather than be the same.
Someone has to take the higher ground and that someone has to be us.[/quote] sniffle
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;33362]Yes I absolutely agree.
This kind of honesty and love for truth is sadly missing in todays time.[/QUOTE]
Rich! I can’t believe you are even replying to this thread! Do you even remember the insults and judgements you made in previous threads!?
I’m sorry, yesterday I decided that I would avoid you like a plague, but when I saw your reply to this thread I could not help but butt in.
Thank you for your post Inner Athlete, I try to reply to all threads as I would with people in person or in real life, but my personal experiences in life may make me bias at times, I need to be cautious of this.
[QUOTE=omamana;33444]Rich! I can’t believe you are even replying to this thread! Do you even remember the insults and judgements you made in previous threads!?
I’m sorry, yesterday I decided that I would avoid you like a plague, but when I saw your reply to this thread I could not help but butt in.[/QUOTE]
God, why didn’t I think of that. I’ll just ignore him instead of let him bother me. I’m taking your advice.
[QUOTE=omamana;33444]Rich! I can’t believe you are even replying to this thread! Do you even remember the insults and judgements you made in previous threads!?
I’m sorry, yesterday I decided that I would avoid you like a plague, but when I saw your reply to this thread I could not help but butt in.
Thank you for your post Inner Athlete, I try to reply to all threads as I would with people in person or in real life, but my personal experiences in life may make me bias at times, I need to be cautious of this.[/QUOTE]
I think you are missing the message dear of why this thread was started. I am presenting a view in a manner that agitates you to the extent that you feel you should lash out at me, is that not a more of a reflection of you than it is me.
I have not used any insults dear, I have only just said my views very strongly.
This is an insult:
[QUOTE=YogiAdam;33440]Go fuck yourself you sad lonely retard![/QUOTE]
Please search my entire post history and you will find me saying nothing of the sort to anybody, even with members I have had the most extreme disagreements with. I am not at all agitated by Yogiadam curse at me, for I can see it reflects nothing of me, but of him. To feel motivated enough to go out of your way and curse in such a violent manner, reflects a really painful inner dynamic. We should all feel very sorry for Yogiadam and hope he gets better soon.
In any case the message of the OP is: is our practice applied. If you feel the need to react with violence against somebody because of their views then no you are not applying the practice of Yoga. Retrace your steps and find out where you went wrong.
I am open to every view in the world. But this does not mean I will agree with it. Again I will remind you Yoga developed in a tradition where everybody was free to think critically and form their own views and also had to defend their views from opposing views.
Just remember if you are so insecure about your views and do not want them challenged in any way, shape or form to put this in your post. Your wishes will definitely be respected.
I feel this is one of those areas that many yoga teachers lack. I don’t know that a single yoga teacher I’ve trained with has ever shared HOW to look at that reflection. HOW do we do such a thing rather than attach to our emotional reaction? HOW do we come to realize this isn’t about the other person, it’s actually about us?
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;33447]I think you are missing the message dear of why this thread was started. I am presenting a view in a manner that agitates you to the extent that you feel you should lash out at me, is that not a more of a reflection of you than it is me.
I have not used any insults dear, I have only just said my views very strongly…
Just remember if you are so insecure about your views and do not want them challenged in any way, shape or form to put this in your post. Your wishes will definitely be respected.[/QUOTE]
Please address me as ‘Omamana’ as I address you as ‘Surya’, I find the way you have used ‘dear’ in this context to be derogatory. The same way you have called people on this forum, grasshopper, silly billy etc which may not be cursing but is used to provoke, which is unkind.
I have not lashed out at you Surya, I have merely stated my shock at your reply to this thread.
I am not agitated, I am on this forum to learn, but within boundaries and so far as it serves me well. However, yesterday some of your posts did sadden me, I have a lot of empathy for the people I work with who suffer from serious mental health illnesses, so for this reason your views did have an effect on me, but it was my choice to enter the discussion so I can?t blame you for this, I decided to unsubscribe from the thread instead.
I think carefully before I post anything on this forum, I always try to ensure it comes from a place of kindness, and when I feel it necessary I will be firm. So yes, whatever I write does reflect me, as is my intention.
I do recall in a previous thread ‘I am God’ I said the following to you: [I]‘I don’t want to justify myself or enter a religious debate with you, nor do I want to prove you wrong or myself right.’[/I]…but you did not respect this indirect request? As you responded listing all the reasons why I was wrong again…
I have no doubt your knowledge about many things far exceeds mine, gosh I?ve only been doing yoga for 18 months…but I have no respect for you.
Lao Tzu: [I]?When you are content to be simply yourself and don’t compare or compete, everybody will respect you.? [/I]
How interesting that the energy of another thread has migrated here. And slightly ironic that the post itself opened the door for higher ground and it seems to have been politely declined, en masse, in favor of stalwart positions.
I’ll just briefly say that I feel this particular forum should not include profanity. The refinement of language is directly proportional to refinement of mind and therefore part of the evolution embedded in the path of yoga. For me this is not a negotiable point.
@ David:
The examination of the reflection is manifest through the teaching of seer and seen in the practice - primarily in the application of asana and meditation. While it may not require a teacher or guide, it is infinitely more helpful.
In the presence of reactivity it is not possible to look at one’s reflection. Instead it must, at that point, wait for an ebb in the tide of emotion. The practice itself has to enhance awareness so that the student can begin to slow the reactivity. Many practices, while externally fascinating, are simply not effective in developing awareness in this way. When we are reactive we not only become slave to our emotions but we also feed or energize them, giving them additional life and, in some cases, longevity.
So here are the four things I believe lead to what you are asking:
-Taking personal responsibility for all that happens in our lives.
-Committing to the concept of not blaming (which comes from the taking of responsibility).
-Finding a profound practice which assists us in the process of self-study (svadhyaya).
-Applying yoga philosophy to our living rather than using it to prove intellect or bolster knowledge at the expense of wisdom.
Do so you think “silly billy, dear and grasshopper” is the same as “go fuck yourself you sad lonely retard”? I have also been told I am schziophrenic by this member as an insult. Is this equivalent? This is as equivalent as a tap on the shoulder to being smacked in the face
Your objectivity is blinded here because of your personal objections to me. Recognise this because it will help your Yoga practice.
I have not lashed out at you Surya, I have merely stated my shock at your reply to this thread.
You are clearly lashing out at me. You say you wanted to avoid me like the plague, then you said you could not help but butt in so you could contradict me, at the end of this post you say “I have no respect for you” You are clearly engaging in constant and repetitive acts of violence against me.
However, I am not at all agitated as you have the freedom to say anything you want and I would not have it any other way. However clearly this is reflecting more in you than it is me.
I am not agitated
However, yesterday some of your posts did sadden me, I have a lot of empathy for the people I work with who suffer from serious mental health illnesses, so for this reason your views did have an effect on me, but it was my choice to enter the discussion so I can’t blame you for this, I decided to unsubscribe from the thread instead.
You are saying two different things. You clearly are very agitated over my views, and they motivate you strongly enough for you to overlook vicious insults against me(by Yogiadam) and for you to attack me constantly. Again this is reflecting more of you than me. Recognise it.
I think carefully before I post anything on this forum, I always try to ensure it comes from a place of kindness
You are hardly being kind to me. Your actions do not match your words.
Yoga is about bringing our actions, words and thoughts in line. I am a more succesfull Yogi than yourself in this regard. I say what I think and do I what I say.
I do recall in a previous thread ‘I am God’ I said the following to you: [I]‘I don’t want to justify myself or enter a religious debate with you, nor do I want to prove you wrong or myself right.’[/I]…but you did not respect this indirect request? As you responded listing all the reasons why I was wrong again…
Then you should have unsubscribed from the thread and not post there again. I am not about to change a thread I started because somebody does not like the views expressed in it. If you don’t like something on tv, what do you do? You change channel.
Lao Tzu: [I]‘When you are content to be simply yourself and don’t compare or compete, everybody will respect you.’ [/I]
If it is not clear already I am not looking for you respect. My views will remain my views unless I have reason to change them. This is a basic fact of life and you cannot insulate yourself from people who do not share your views or your ways.
HOWEVER, maybe those who have reacted will be able to take that step back once their emotions have ebbed and get something from this. In which case, yes, you opened the door to a higher ground! WOOT!
[quote=InnerAthlete;33466]The examination of the reflection is manifest through the teaching of seer and seen in the practice - primarily in the application of asana and meditation. While it may not require a teacher or guide, it is infinitely more helpful.
In the presence of reactivity it is not possible to look at one’s reflection. Instead it must, at that point, wait for an ebb in the tide of emotion. The practice itself has to enhance awareness so that the student can begin to slow the reactivity. Many practices, while externally fascinating, are simply not effective in developing awareness in this way. When we are reactive we not only become slave to our emotions but we also feed or energize them, giving them additional life and, in some cases, longevity.
So here are the four things I believe lead to what you are asking:
-Taking personal responsibility for all that happens in our lives.
-Committing to the concept of not blaming (which comes from the taking of responsibility).
-Finding a profound practice which assists us in the process of self-study (svadhyaya).
-Applying yoga philosophy to our living rather than using it to prove intellect or bolster knowledge at the expense of wisdom.[/quote]
Let’s see if I can translate what you’re saying into an applicable example.
I get into a heated debate with someone where my emotions get the better of me.
As I have attached to those emotions and fed them, I have to wait until I cool off a bit.
Once I’ve cooled off, I take a step back and observe how I reacted during that situation.
I admit to myself that what I experienced was about ME and came from within ME. It’s not the other person’s fault.
I then, through study and practice of yoga (or other practices) ask myself how the wisdom of those from the past can be applied to what I experienced during my heated debate. And through realization and understanding, I, over time, react less and less until I am able to observe and see in a way that allows me to instead respond from a place of presence.
[QUOTE=David;33475]1. I get into a heated debate with someone where my emotions get the better of me.
2. As I have attached to those emotions and fed them, I have to wait until I cool off a bit.
3. Once I’ve cooled off, I take a step back and observe how I reacted during that situation.
4. I admit to myself that what I experienced was about ME and came from within ME. It’s not the other person’s fault.
5. I then, through study and practice of yoga (or other practices) ask myself how the wisdom of those from the past can be applied to what I experienced during my heated debate. And through realization and understanding, I, over time, react less and less until I am able to observe and see in a way that allows me to instead respond from a place of presence.
It’s HARD! At least it is for me! I recently admitted to myself just how violent I have been in the past and how violent I have been during recent times, all covered up because I wanted to be, “how I should be”. Boy howdy did my ego not want me to realize THAT. Hahahah.
I get into a heated debate with someone where my emotions get the better of me.
As I have attached to those emotions and fed them, I have to wait until I cool off a bit.
Once I’ve cooled off, I take a step back and observe how I reacted during that situation.
I admit to myself that what I experienced was about ME and came from within ME. It’s not the other person’s fault.
I then, through study and practice of yoga (or other practices) ask myself how the wisdom of those from the past can be applied to what I experienced during my heated debate. And through realization and understanding, I, over time, react less and less until I am able to observe and see in a way that allows me to instead respond from a place of presence.[/QUOTE]
Don’t get into a heated debate. That’s far easier than fixing after the fact.
But since we do and since you will…
I would start from number 5.
Begin the practice in such a way that you take responsibility for your thoughts, your actions, your lack (without judgement). Be the seen (you) in the practice and be the seer (stand aside from you). It is far simpler (though not at all simple) to do so in your practice then it will be to do so on the freeway. Watch your thoughts. Make them pertain to your practice, Corral them from that which is not of your practice. Learn to separate yourself from your feelings without separating yourself from your feelings.
When in the real world your button gets pushed, your emotion rises, and it presses upon the inner door begging to be let out…stand aside from it, watch it, be the seer (and the seen, since there is no escape) but consider NOT reacting AND not stifling. Instead note the powerful emotion rising with a student’s curiosity, feel as angry as you like but no belching of it.
If you are in an intimate relationship with the other person on the experience, share the observation as that will foster intimacy and meet your need to process the emotion(s) and the relationship’s need to grow.
Then you can move to the stage of looking at the nature of the feelings. It is very difficult to see such things clearly when we are busy allowing ourselves to be buried up to the knees in the dynamic of them. As you get to know yourself on deeper levels (through self-study, reflection, and creating a dialogue between your capital S self and your little self) the mirroring will not only become apparent but may also become amusing:-)
If this would be an ashram, than we could chose to obey certain rules.
I was thinking about this, in relation of the esenees. Somewhere I read that Christ himself was not the adept of a secluded lifestyle, and, indeed the gospels present us a dynamic, active personality going out into the world, among the sick and the wicked.
Now of course, the original poster whom I respect greatly exactly by knowing him by the nature of his words has started this thread under the banner of yoga, and thus my christian example might appear far fetched.
And indeed it is so, and the gap here cannot be easily bridged in spite of the best intentions of most. But because I have started my search here, years ago, and came to know some of this place’s more constant inhabitants, regardless of where did I arrive and in what terms I compose my thoughts today, I still feel this place special. What brings me back here, is that sometimes the need to share some of the gratitude for the fullness of life I do experience, is overwhelming. There is no selfishness here, as I do not follow some personal agenda, but I simply want to share the joy of my heart. But I am only human myself, so I often get caught into some of the traps this road presents.
I find that probably, this place cannot be anything else that what it is.
The older I get, the more I realize that I am on the frontline, in the heat of the battle. Why should be this place be any different ? Are not the things we percieve as false what make us try to find the right answers ?
My problem isn’t really to suffer the presence of superficiality and chaotic behaviour, but the lack of space to arrive to the depths necessary to build up self sustaining concpets and ideas.
I strongly believe in unifying what is dispersed and what’s apparently conflictual, but I do realize that doing this in a superficial manner does not benefit the cause. So I think it is of primordial importance to let everyone be the way he/she is, and our efforts should be focused on getting our opinions through by winning our partner gradually and by the power of their own reasoning and judgment.
Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion, but I dislike the avoiding like the plague solution. Compassion and empathy is the right attitude in facing the plague’s victims. As yogi, we are not ordinary persons. As yogi, we are spritual disciples, and followers of the ways of the Spirit. As yogi we try to transcend the human condition. Where humans feel aversion, and turn heels, we should go forward. And these are our very tests.
If we desire to evolve from the barbarian nature - aspire, if you will, then it would likely require some discipline(s) be adhered to on the part of the aspirant.
This then would not be a matter of obedience. Nor a matter of rules, as though we are misbehaving children in primary school. And it would not be a matter of accidental evolution (what we appear to have experienced up to this point).
Instead it would be a mindful choice based on the aspiration.
Of course the premise may be errant (intention to evolve mindfully).
If that is the case then the wailing for peace and compassion would merely be a nice paint job with not much of an engine.
