Are our practices applied

Yoga Discussion General Yoga
#21

I can’t believe i missed this thread but i could’nt believe more in it’s intention and it’s message.

What does how we interact or react to & with people say about our own practice?. I think tolerance,non-judgementalness,non-combativeness and basic respect are like you say foundational elements in a basic yoga practice.So yes incongruent on a yoga forum. And you’re right the bar is raised that so much higher if you are more dilligent in your practice

I never like picking folk out from the crowd. But Surya Deva has been nothing but polite and respectful in the way he has crafted his responses since he arrived here.He has never once used rudness or sarcasm in order to appear to win an argument.I’ve learned a great deal from him particularly about Hinduism recently. Thankyou Surya Deva.Some of the reactions to his posts have been pretty odd to say the least.Hostile is’nt too strong a word.But it makes no sense on a yoga forum and i i feel tends to say alot about where folk may well be really at,especially in their practice. A sense of humour is good and okay. But attakhing folk without recourse to reason or logic or being well-informed enough on the subject field, or without basic respect and tolerance of another’s viewpoint is what kids do in playgrounds. And i think he deserves respect. .

Sorry Surya Deva. But I felt i had to say something.I know you can defend yourself.In fact that’s what you’re pretty good at.

‘Mindful evolution’ yes, not playground-level antics.

#22

[QUOTE=core789;33783]But Surya Deva has been nothing but polite and respectful in the way he has crafted his responses since he arrived here.He has never once used rudness or sarcasm in order to appear to win an argument.[/QUOTE]

I have had a very different experience. Plenty of sarcasm, and patronizing remarks, and I have noticed that quite a few people (although not everyone) have agreed with me.

#23

What does it matter if other people agree with us or not? I can find a bunch of people that would agree that god hates fags. Is my opinion suddenly more valid?

Is SD sarcastic and patronizing? Maybe.

Recently on this forum, there was someone who I banned. I banned this person because I felt they were violent in their words. Not long after I banned the person, I laid on my yoga mat one night and was finally honest with myself about how violent I’ve been in the past and my violent tendencies at present. As I was finally honest with myself rather than acting how I thought I should be and how others told me I should be, I was able to feel what was within me and let much of it go.

I went back and read many of the posts of the person I banned. Lo and behold, I didn’t see violence in his words. I saw compassion.

Oops.

#24

[QUOTE=David;33806]I went back and read many of the posts of the person I banned. Lo and behold, I didn’t see violence in his words. I saw compassion.

Oops.[/QUOTE]

Maybe you could tell them they’re not banned.

#25

Hahah, yeah, they’re no longer banned.

Of course, when I felt he was violent, I noticed that quite a few people (although not everyone) agreed with me.

So who is right? Me? Them? All of us? None of us?

shrug

#26

[QUOTE=David;33811]Hahah, yeah, they’re no longer banned.

Of course, when I felt he was violent, I noticed that quite a few people (although not everyone) agreed with me.

So who is right? Me? Them? All of us? None of us?

shrug[/QUOTE]

Oh I see. So maybe both. I’m sure everyone has good and bad sides to them. As long as we all put effort in to head the right direction. I suppose some people might find me a bit full on sometimes. I was a severe alcoholic and drug addict for 15 years, I gave up alcohol 2 years ago, and gave up my pain killer addiction only less then a few months ago when I started Yoga. I have a history of violent and aggressive behavior, my dad died too early, and my brother is in jail. But, I have a full time job, and customers and staff love me, I’m saving for a house, I have an amazing girlfriend who loves me, I try my best to treat everyone like my dearest friends, and my Yoga teacher even said today what a very nice person I am. Yoga and meditation been a miracle cure in my life, but I’m sure my past and all the habits I’ve developed over the years, are not fully extinguished yet. But it’s getting easier, and when I look back I’ve come along way… what was the question again? lol :D:D

#27

[QUOTE=David;33811] Of course, when I felt he was violent, I noticed that quite a few people (although not everyone) agreed with me.

So who is right? Me? Them? All of us? None of us?

shrug[/QUOTE]

I would think that looking at the majority of reactions would be closest to the truth. From statistical point of view - individual tendencies cancel out and more independent properties emerge. Our perception is clouded by tons of factors. E.g. if there is heated argument and someone is siding with us we tend to overlook lack of kindness and respect. And maybe even we enjoy that someone throws a nasty comment.

Also, this concept of experiencing of your own emotions/problems during interaction with others is a complex one. Pushing it to extreme: raped person is not experiencing pain because of his/hers inner emotional problems. So I guess there is a mix of subjective perception and actual harm from others.

#28

Wow, lot’s of goosebumps on my end. Thanks for sharing!

You’re awesome and doing great.

Out of curiosity, if I were to moderate your posts (meaning your posts wouldn’t be visible until I approved them) or ban you for losing control on occasion, any thoughts on how that might make you feel or what it might do to you? I just looking for your honest opinion, nothing more.

#29

[quote=Pawel;33814]I would think that looking at the majority of reactions would be closest to the truth. From statistical point of view - individual tendencies cancel out and more independent properties emerge. Our perception is clouded by tons of factors. E.g. if there is heated argument and someone is siding with us we tend to overlook lack of kindness and respect. And maybe even we enjoy that someone throws a nasty comment.

Also, this concept of experiencing of your own emotions/problems during interaction with others is a complex one. Pushing it to extreme: raped person is not experiencing pain because of his/hers inner emotional problems. So I guess there is a mix of subjective perception and actual harm from others.[/quote]
Very interesting points and thoughts Pawel!

If you take 100 people of one culture and 100 people of a vastly different culture and suscept them to the same experience, do you think reactions would be the same across each culture?

As for the rape victim, you’re certainly correct. Utilizing that example, if I tell you I’m going to rape you and you experience fear and anxiety, where do you feel that is coming from? Is that reaction healthy, because of inner emotional problems, or something else?

#30

[QUOTE=David;33821]Wow, lot’s of goosebumps on my end. Thanks for sharing!

You’re awesome and doing great.

Out of curiosity, if I were to moderate your posts (meaning your posts wouldn’t be visible until I approved them) or ban you for losing control on occasion, any thoughts on how that might make you feel or what it might do to you? I just looking for your honest opinion, nothing more.[/QUOTE]

I’m sure I could abide by a ‘ban on losing control’ agreement, if you’d except that. Every time I’ve responded with aggression at anyone having a go at me, I’ve thought of a kind responds I could have given afterwards. If I wait a few moments, every time someone says something to get under my skin, I’m sure the responds’ would be totally different.

#31

  1. If you think of kind responses after the fact, why not post them and reconcile?

  2. Why would your responses under threat of a ban be different? Why would that overhanging threat cause you to wait a few moments? And do you feel that would be healthy?

#32

Some notes:

When I express my negative emotions in a sophisticated language, I am not speaking from a higher ground, I am only using a sophisticated language. That’s a skill, like juggling or riding your bike on just one wheel. I rephrase my emotions to a degree that they appear other than profane. But they still are profane. For example might someone (a fictional person) be annoyed by stuff going on. And they complain about it. And since they have superior skills to express themselves, they do so without using certain arrangements of letters as “fuck”, “shit”, “pissed” etc.

The emotions behind a superior language are still the same as the emotions behind profane language, but, and that’s where a problem of the superior language lies: The speaker assumes they stand on higher grounds behind raised bars. They express the same thing, just with more sophisticated words, and therefore misinterpret themselves as sophisticated, superior, cultivated, evolved.

But only when what’s expressed is no longer there one might be able to speak of superiority. If only the words sound a little prettier, it’s just a profane case of smugness (and I already find the sound of that word disgusting: smugness).

Also has to be considered that some people simply do not have these superior skills. They cannot express the same emotions like those who do have these skills in a way that makes them sound decent. Therefore, the option to express themselves would be taken from them, if they were required to rephrase the same feelings in the same superior language.

Also, I do not believe in the “everyone is an island”-theory. Noone gets annoyed and angry without being provoced or hurt first. So to blame and criminalize the one person who uses an alleged “bad word” is foolish and - I had to look that up in a dictionary: - myopic. Particularly those who do have superior language-skills often use these to provoce in a politically correct way, subtle and between the lines; we find a mentionable number of exmaples in this very thread. Particularly claims to be more evolved, standing on higher ground, to be more mindful, etc. while indicating that others are barbarians, children, not following the holy path of Yoga, etc. are very problematic and will lead to disgruntlement easily. Therefore, that is no different to calling someone a “fucking asshole”, because it expresses a crystal clear attitude of disrespect and antipathy. It just sounds sophisticated, while it really is: Smug.

My overall point: It’s what you say. Not how you say it. In my very humble opinion, that of course is very “negotiable”, so if someone oh-so-superior sages would wish to discuss it, I would not too arrogant to consider their objections. :lol:

PS: I wrote this before some formally banned bloke was mentioned.

#33

[QUOTE=David;33827]1. If you think of kind responses after the fact, why not post them and reconcile?

  1. Why would your responses under threat of a ban be different? Why would that overhanging threat cause you to wait a few moments? And do you feel that would be healthy?[/QUOTE]

I have reconciled with one member. It’s human nature to get angry when people are nasty to you. I can see why it might not be healthy to respond differently under a ban. It’s a bit like someone saying ‘If God didn’t exists, there’d be no morals, and people would run around, raping and murdering’. It’s far more noble to be kind, of your own accord.

#34

[QUOTE=David;33823]If you take 100 people of one culture and 100 people of a vastly different culture and suscept them to the same experience, do you think reactions would be the same across each culture?[/QUOTE]

I guess it would depend on nature of this experience and how it relates to differences between cultures. But I see your point. What one perceive as violence other may perceive as a joke. So the question is: should a variability of cultural perception be a sufficient reason to not develop universal standards of behavior and attempts to minimize mutual misunderstanding and violence? What is more important at the end of the day: cultural difference or future together? Because we are all melting here on this forum. With every post we read and write we are becoming closer, whether we want it or not.

[QUOTE=David;33823] As for the rape victim, you’re certainly correct. Utilizing that example, if I tell you I’m going to rape you and you experience fear and anxiety, where do you feel that is coming from? Is that reaction healthy, because of inner emotional problems, or something else?[/QUOTE]

Well, when I try to put myself in such situation I feel those feelings (fear and anxiety) coming from my body. Sort of “organic” origin. Then I recall all stories and scenes from movies and those images increase those feelings. And this feeling is coming, sort of despair that it is happening to me and I will be violated and marked forever… So the sources range from body instinct to existential despair. Disturbing feelings…

#35

[QUOTE=Quetzalcoatl;33828]Some notes:

When I express my negative emotions in a sophisticated language, I am not speaking from a higher ground, I am only using a sophisticated language. That’s a skill, like juggling or riding your bike on just one wheel. I rephrase my emotions to a degree that they appear other than profane. But they still are profane. For example might someone (a fictional person) be annoyed by stuff going on. And they complain about it. And since they have superior skills to express themselves, they do so without using certain arrangements of letters as “fuck”, “shit”, “pissed” etc.

The emotions behind a superior language are still the same as the emotions behind profane language, but, and that’s where a problem of the superior language lies: The speaker assumes they stand on higher grounds behind raised bars. They express the same thing, just with more sophisticated words, and therefore misinterpret themselves as sophisticated, superior, cultivated, evolved.

But only when what’s expressed is no longer there one might be able to speak of superiority. If only the words sound a little prettier, it’s just a profane case of smugness (and I already find the sound of that word disgusting: smugness).

Also has to be considered that some people simply do not have these superior skills. They cannot express the same emotions like those who do have these skills in a way that makes them sound decent. Therefore, the option to express themselves would be taken from them, if they were required to rephrase the same feelings in the same superior language.

Also, I do not believe in the “everyone is an island”-theory. Noone gets annoyed and angry without being provoced or hurt first. So to blame and criminalize the one person who uses an alleged “bad word” is foolish and - I had to look that up in a dictionary: - myopic. Particularly those who do have superior language-skills often use these to provoce in a politically correct way, subtle and between the lines; we find a mentionable number of exmaples in this very thread. Particularly claims to be more evolved, standing on higher ground, to be more mindful, etc. while indicating that others are barbarians, children, not following the holy path of Yoga, etc. are very problematic and will lead to disgruntlement easily. Therefore, that is no different to calling someone a “fucking asshole”, because it expresses a crystal clear attitude of disrespect and antipathy. It just sounds sophisticated, while it really is: Smug.

My overall point: It’s what you say. Not how you say it. In my very humble opinion, that of course is very “negotiable”, so if someone oh-so-superior sages would wish to discuss it, I would not too arrogant to consider their objections. :lol:

PS: I wrote this before some formally banned bloke was mentioned.[/QUOTE]

That’s EXACTLY what I’ve found. I was very very suprised at the irony, that this is a Yoga forum, and many people can be so smug, and get off on provoking others. I thought Yoga was about wisdom. It’s taken me by total suprise. I’ve never seen this type of thing in the Buddhist community.

#36

Indeed! I don’t want you to be kind out of fear. I don’t want you [B]act[/B] a certain way because that’s how you think you should be. I don’t want you to respond in a certain way because you think you’ll be accepted then. I want you to be how you feel, I want you to be honest and true to yourself.

I recently visited a house where the dog had a bark collar on. Does everyone know what that is? If not, it’s a device that shocks the dog if it barks. I tried to pet the dog but it ran away in fear. I tried the, “Here puppy puppy” voice we all know, and it sat with its tail between its legs.

Whether we call it a mask or a shock collar, most of us wear one. The last thing I want to do is tighten the straps. My desire is to create the space where people can take those collars off. Yes, what comes out may be ugly to some people at times, but to me, it’s beautiful. In my opinion, it’s part of the process of letting go for many. How can we be honest with ourselves that we we’re angry, or hurt, or scared when we can’t bark?

#37

@ David:
Then what you are saying is that you need to yell (bark) in order to be honest with yourself about your feelings? Okay. Then that is true for you. I don’t feel the same way.

@all:
Are clarifications needed, desired?
Is there a general sense that I pointed and called YOU barbarians, setting myself aside?
Is there a sense that less articulate people, or people with limited language skills, NEED profanity to lean on (not choose it out of preference or habit but NEED it)?
Are those people robbed of the ability to express themselves by the absence of such words or phrases?

I don’t believe people need superior skills, per se, in order to get along with others, or live in a civilized way, or to grow themselves in a variety of ways, which, by the way, isn’t for my direct benefit but for theirs. A refinement starts where you are. The bar is your own commitment to be something more than you were yesterday. Again, this is not for me, my direct benefit, my approval, my profit. This is not a place above others upon which I crouch. I perceived peers walking side by side, coming to a forum for yoga with the interest of making a difference, in their life, the life of others, and the cosmos.

I am not suggesting sophistication. I am merely pointing out that if we, collectively, as a group on the path of yoga, are professing to have interest in changing the world, changing ourselves, changing our context (hopefully for the better) then that process appears to be one moving away from our past of barbarism toward something more. This is aspiration. This is the rise of energy from the root of the spine, which represents our most primal, toward the heart center.

It is fine to choose to remain in the root chakra. But it is, to say the least, a bit odd to remain there (by choice) and claim an interest in transformation.

#38

No, i have not always applied them in posting on here, nor have I applied them to the fullest in my daily life. Ideally in time things will be different.

As far as yelling, I have a friend that at times if I discuss things with her she wont listen. I try to take the middle ground approach and then if there is a point i cant hold it, ill yell at her. crazy thing is that oftern times afterwards she will thank me for, in her words, “shaking herr up” and then we have a deep conversation. my father is the same way as at times he says “i dont knonw how you feel because you show little emotion” and sometimes I only get through by yelling. Ill tell him that why should i have to express things loudly, if I tell you I dont like something or I tell you that I would prefer things this way, why should the tone of my voice matter. So i do see usefullness in yelling at times, though I preferr not to do it. Maybe one day I will stop yelling completely and let things go into the silence so to speak.
best to all
brother neil

#39

Pawel, I need to ponder what you said for awhile, please pardon my delay in responding.

[quote=InnerAthlete;33842]@ David:
Then what you are saying is that you need to yell (bark) in order to be honest with yourself about your feelings? Okay. Then that is true for you. I don’t feel the same way.[/quote]
I’m saying I need to feel what I feel. If I feel angry, I need to feel angry rather than act like I don’t. If I feel anger, then I also want to let go of anger rather than bottle it up. If I have a bark collar on, I can’t let go of it. Now, there are ways of letting go of that anger than are healthier than others. I hope that I can punch a speed bag instead of yell at someone on a forum. But if I don’t have that strength at that time, I hope the people of the forum can forgive and accept me and know that I’m trying me best and it’s actually part of my process to bark at that point in time.

If that space is not created for me, then, because there will likely always be a part of me that desires to be accepted and please others, there is a chance that I will act like I am told to. How I [I]should[/I]. If my posts are moderated because they are full of anger and I strongly desire to be accepted on a forum, my choices are to act differently or not take part. I will likely choose to act. As such, in my experience, I will then come believe that I am not feeling that anger. Yet, in truth, that anger will be within me, more destructive than ever.

This realization comes from inner work I’ve done. I know the second my ego came into existence. And I know the second I put on that mask and began to act like someone I wasn’t to please others. As a two year old, my parents spanked me under very specific circumstances and I promised myself I would never do anything that might make me feel how that made me feel, ever again. I have a tremendous amount of neural connections associated with that promise.

On occasion, I find I am able to sit with these emotions, feel them, and let them dissipate. Other times that doesn’t work and I have to let them out. This is very much an ongoing practice for me. If you have other means that work for you that you think may work for me, I prostrate at your feet good sir :slight_smile: I’ll take all the help I can get.

By the way, I don’t need profanity. I simply rather like to use it on occasion :smiley: I remember in my early days of yoga I began going to “higher consciousness” meetings. A group of us sat in a circle giving our names and telling a little about ourselves. Everyone put themselves on a pedestal until it came around to one woman who gave her name then said, “And I’m all fucked up.” I don’t know that she could have chosen better words to describe how she felt so efficiently and directly. With that said, I totally understand those of you who prefer not to utilize profanity. :slight_smile:

#40

[QUOTE=InnerAthlete;33842]

I don’t believe people need superior skills, per se, in order to get along with others, or live in a civilized way, or to grow themselves in a variety of ways, which, by the way, isn’t for my direct benefit but for theirs. [/QUOTE]

Gordon, I saw the thread that I think triggered you to start this one. I think that comment Im thinking about was quite rude. (But it made me laugh. unfortunately :frowning: I’m not perfect, and sometimes get amused when I see someone is scuffing of others).

I encountered such a behavior (on the forum as well). And I have to say only one thing : this is our chance to practice forgiveness as well.

Just forgive those comments. Forgive people who you think were unfair to you. and forgive yourself for staring this conversation. You wont explain anything to people who do not understand.