Are - you - enlightened?

Spirituality Religion
#1

There seems to be a rather ridiculous war betwixt a significant number of members on these forums revolving about the possibilities (or not) of (a) certain member(s) being enlightened, whatsoever that may mean. Back and forth they argue in this thread and that, getting nowhere. Thus, I shall take it upon myself - here and now - to end this debate, once and for all with a public test nonetheless. Any whom are so diposed as to consider themselves enlightened may come forth, without shame or ridicule (from me), and take this public test.

That said, I shall now explain the public test, in some detail:

First and foremost, one must know that I shall be executing the test in relation to esoteric (or “expert”) knowledge - specifically, to the content of this chart here:

… 3. That said, I most certainly do realize that Enlightenment has a particular esoteric usage. Enlightenment, esoterically speaking, is had when:

A). One attains, in terms of consciousness albeit permanently, to the world of mind (47:4)
B). One attains, in terms of consciousness albeit temporarily, to the world of causes (47:2-3)
C). One attains, in terms of consciousness albeit permanently, to the world of causes (47:1)
—*---
D). One attains, in terms of consciousness albeit temporarily, to the world of unity (46:6-7[?])
E). One attains, in terms of consciousness albeit permanently, to the world of unity (46:5-4[?]) …

This test shall be able to ascertain the - likeliness or probability - that an individual has attained to B). or higher in the above chart. This isn’t to say that the test is perfect - of course not, but I am assuming that most people here will not know the answer to my question, a priori. Therefore, it is sound enough for our sake here and now.

Simply put, I am going to ask a question and expect an answer - a very specific answer, mind you; no half-baked attempts will be acceptable. What I am looking for shall be both clear and concise, strippedy full of the “fogs of mystery”; the language of the mystagogues.

How shall this measure ones attainment, you ask?

Simply put: each of these levels of conscious development exhibit specific propencities for the acquisition of knowlege; should I ask a question, the answer should be able to be discerned without a need for significant physical researches. It should be possible, B). to E)., to essentially connect with the idea(s) behind the form I am about to present here and now.

Why the test; what does it matter whether or not an individual claims they are enlightened?

This is a good question and certainly has to be taken into consideration in proposing such a public test. Indeed, what does it matter? For the individual who claims it, certainly, it matters not - enlightened/not-enlightened - who else should care? However, one also has to take into account that individuals do not exist in vacuums - the truth or falsity of a claim can and does affect the behaviour of other individuals; it is a matter of influence or power. Therefore, it is a most grave matter in fact - one with very serious karmic repercussions; to teach delusions (to delude) is a most grave mistake, even if it is done unconsciously. Thus I question out of concern, both for the individuals making the claim and those being affected by the claim.

Surely, this is reasonable?

The question, then, is as follows:

Whatsoever does it mean to be “crucified”?

(For those who think this is - so - simple, I can assure you it is not. That said, feel free to post your responses for the fun of it if you’d like - no shame or ridicule in that).

Thanks for your time.

P.S. - I might also say that, in the case fo failure, perhaps it would only be fair to publically revoke ones certain claims to enlightenment.

#2

one has to be enlightened him/herself to be testing those enlightened .
whats in your bio to be holding that exalted position.
pray, why fixation on crucifiction???/.
we are already discussing whether yoga is Hindu or christian elsewhere.

#3

one has to be enlightened him/herself to be testing those enlightened

Hardly.

In fact, were I enlightened myself, I would expect nothing less than to be tested - the ones testing me I would consider for discipleship even, for they do not merely believe nor dis-believe. Think on that.

whats in your bio to be holding that exalted position

I never share my biography “willy-nilly”, for biographies are all-too-often used as weapons against us - your question is a case-in-point. I much prefer to pre-emptively disarm my opposition, understand. It’s like a game of chess, really…

pray, why fixation on crucifiction???

It’s not a “fixation” - it’s a question.

we are already discussing whether yoga is Hindu or christian elsewhere

That may be so - this thread, however, is not about Hinduism and/or Christianity.

Beyond that, care to give the question a whirl; who knows - maybe you’re enlightened?

Thanks for your time.

#4

Those who are enlightened could care two hoots to prove their enlightenment. Enlightenment is when one stabilizes in the unknowable infinity that is pure objectless consciousness. When everything is one, what is there to prove and to whom?

#5

If you were enlightened, the last thing you would be doing is posting on the Yoga forums :smiley:

#6

To say “[I]I[/I] am enlightened” begs the question of who the “I” is.

#7

“If you were enlightened, the last thing you would be doing is posting on the Yoga forums”

A master is such, that he can even post on a Yoga forum. No action is too great or too trivial for such a one. And if you believe otherwise, then he is there to destroy all of your ignorant assumptions that you have generated as to how an awakened one should be.

#8

If you were enlightened, and I do mean fully enlightened-teleport-to-my-room-shake-my-hand why only earth would you spend hours having debates on the Yoga forum, when there are bigger platforms in the world such as the UN, the international academic community, the Yoga community in India. Why would you be here, when you could out there expanding your cult, planting trees, fighting against corruption, capitalism and colonialism and crime?

If you were fully enlightened you would have absolutely no problem creating a cult of millions of followers in no time. You could pretty much shake the entire foundation of the world. Everybody in the world would know who you are.

But nobody knows you Amir? Shame, eh :wink: Even succesfull frauds like Shri Mata ji has left this planet with barely a blip in the world. Satya Sri Baba, a cheap magician, is only followed by his loyal cult members and the rest of world cannot give a damn.

Amidst these frauds are the the great swamis(not enlightened, but great yogis) which many knew and know: Swami Dayananda Saraswati, Swami Vivekananda, Swami Yogananda, Swami Sivananda, Baba Ram Dev, Jaggi Vasudeva(Sadhguru) Swami Nithyananda. They don’t post on Yoga forums, they were and are out there in the real world making big changes. Opening schools, hospitals and helping alleviate suffering of humanity.

#9

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;57570]If you were enlightened, and I do mean fully enlightened-teleport-to-my-room-shake-my-hand why only earth would you spend hours having debates on the Yoga forum, when there are bigger platforms in the world such as the UN, the international academic community, the Yoga community in India. Why would you be here, when you could out there expanding your cult, planting trees, fighting against corruption, capitalism and colonialism and crime?

If you were fully enlightened you would have absolutely no problem creating a cult of millions of followers in no time. You could pretty much shake the entire foundation of the world. Everybody in the world would know who you are.

But nobody knows you Amir? Shame, eh :wink: Even succesful frauds like Shri Mata ji has left with barely a blip in the world. Satya Sri Baba, a chief magician, is only followed by his loyal cult members and the rest of world cannot give a damn.

Amidst these frauds are the the great swamis(not enlightened, but great yogis) which many knew and know: Swami Dayananda Saraswati, Swami Vivekananda, Swami Yogananda, Swami Sivananda, Baba Ram Dev, Jaggi Vasudeva(Sadhguru) Swami Nithyananda. They don’t post on Yoga forums, they were and are out there in the real world making big changes.[/QUOTE]

Well, Surya, who is enlightened then? From your description and criteria, I could easily tell that there has never been such human ever existed on this planet’s recorded history. For you an enlightened person rather sounds like “ubermench” that Nazis were trying to create.

P.s. whats the obsession with teleportation btw? :slight_smile: We are not living in X-men comic book :grin:

#10

I’m enlightened; you’re enlightened, we’re all enlightened. Perhaps it’s not a goal or something to be achieved rather something already there to be uncovered, made aware of, woken up to? If one has expectations of enlightenment then one may be creating limits/boundaries instead of a limitless/boundless experiencing?

#11

There have been Lord Rama, Lord Krishna, Buddha, Mahavira. However, the irony is these great avatars lived thousands of years ago. They bought massive change in the world and hence why they are remembered even today despite them living thousands of years. If one should have a role model, these great avatars should be your role models.

P.s. whats the obsession with teleportation btw? :slight_smile: We are not living in X-men comic book :grin:

It’s a very cool siddhi and reduces time and costs of travel :wink:

#12

Surya,

“If you were fully enlightened you would have absolutely no problem creating a cult of millions of followers in no time.”

To be awakened does not mean that you have a cult, or thousands upon thousands of followers. There are Buddhas who have been here who did not even have a single disciple. In the East, they have been known as Pratyekabuddhas. Pratyekabuddha literally means a “long Buddha”, one who has come to one’s awakening without the guidance of a teacher and who has decided to remain silent. You should be aware that not all Buddhas have decided to teach, and amongst those who have been teaching, not all of them have had intentions of gathering thousands upon thousands of disciples, while others may in fact have thousands upon thousands of disciples. In fact, for most of the Awakened Ones, not even their names are recorded in history. Awakening is not a political ambition. It simply means you have come to know yourself, through and through.

#13

In the East, they have been known as Pratyekabuddhas. Pratyekabuddha literally means a “long Buddha”, one who has come to one’s awakening without the guidance of a teacher and who has decided to remain silent. You should be aware that not all Buddhas have decided to teach, and amongst those who have been teaching, not all of them have had intentions of gathering thousands upon thousands of disciples, while others may in fact have thousands upon thousands of disciples.

Then they are Buddhas by only namesake. I have not ever heard of them. These dozens of Buddhas you claim to be in the Zen tradition I never heard of them. It sounds like Zen has a tradition of self-professed Buddhas. I am not surprised you resonate strongly with this tradition :wink:

Why have we heard of Buddha? We have heard of him because he devoted himself to humanity. I am sorry I do not consider anybody fully enlightened who has not devoted himself to humanity - because this means they have not realised the core truth that humanity is our wider self. Instead, it means that such a person is selfish, wallowing in the goo of their self-professed enlightenment - and such enlightenment is useless to the rest of humanity.

#14

Humanity is suffering this is why enlightened ones should hang around and teache or are they contributing to the solution of humanities suffering one individual at a time?

#15

Lord Rama, declared an avatar, did the following: He showed humanity what it was like to live the life of a noble man(maryadapurushotam) and how dharma is to established. He destroyed the evil empire of Ravana, a cruel global tyrant and bought peace to this world for many generations. He showed his divine form to many and many great risis of his time recognised he was an avatar. His guru was Vasistha, one of the greatest risis of all time. His legends spread all through Asia and all asian countries still sing his glories.

Lord Krishna, declared an avatar, did the following: He showed humanity how to live a dharmic life in an urban age and re-established dharma in the world. He was born to destroy the evil tyrant and major king Kansa who was terrorising his province. He ended his reign. Then Krishna helped the Pandavas, the rightful heir to the capital of India at the time: Hastinapur. After gaining his help and counsel, the Padavas eventually got the throne of Hastinapur and once again dharma was established. The great war of Mahabharata was responsible for the death of millions. Krishna’s divinity was known since his birth, as a child he performed many micracles. Later, he revealed his divine form twice: once to the assembly at Hastinapur when he went there as a messenger of peace and the other time to Arjuna on the battlefield where he gave the greatest spiritual discourse in history: the Gita.
His guru was rishi Purusharama, a great warrior and rishi.

Both Lord Krishna and Lord Rama are worshipped by billions on this planet and have hundreds of thousands of temples and shrines dedicated to them.

Lord Buddha, declared an avatar, did the following: He was born as a great divine soul, but his parents kept him away from his true life calling, until the Buddha saw that life was suffering. He then through this hard work, despite already being a divine soul, sought several gurus at different stages in his life and then 10 years of hard sadhana. He finally gained his enlightenment under the Bodhi tree where he did his most intense meditation yet for 40 days. He had so much love for humanity, he did not pass through the final gate and vowed to end the suffering of everybody on the planet. His foundation would later spread through the entire world.

Kapila and Patanjali, considered the greatest Yogis to have ever lived. Patanjali needs no introduction, his treatise on Yoga went onto define Yoga. His classical and scientific form underlies all Yogas that came after him and every Yoga from Hatha, Kriya to Bhakti plugs into his classical Yoga. The Yogasutras probably still is the greatest text written on Yoga and the most useful manuel. Even researchers today study the Yoga sutras. Kapila, the founder of Samkhya, whom lord Krishna has called the greatest amongst the sages made Yoga possible in the first place.

#16

[QUOTE=ray_killeen;57576]Humanity is suffering this is why enlightened ones should hang around and teache or are they contributing to the solution of humanities suffering one individual at a time?[/QUOTE]

That wouldn’t be a very enlightened and wise approach would it :wink: It would be like saving one person, and leaving the rest of 999 people to sink on a ship.
Surely it is wiser to sacrifice one to save a village, sacrifice a village to save the country, sacrifice a country to save the world(Vidhura Niti)

#17

Surya,

“I am not surprised you resonate strongly with this tradition”

I do not resonate with any particular tradition, Zen or otherwise.

"I am sorry I do not consider anybody fully enlightened who has not devoted himself to humanity - because this means they have not realised the core truth that humanity is our wider self. "

More ignorance. If you had any understanding of the matter at all - you would drop all of your assumptions and projections as to how an awakened one should be. There are various ways to assist others towards their liberation, it does not necessarily mean going out into the world and speaking. In fact, one need not necessarily even remain in the body. There are various reasons why a Buddha may decide to teach or not to teach, there are no absolute standards.

“Instead, it means that such a person is selfish, wallowing in the goo of their self-professed enlightenment - and such enlightenment is useless to the rest of humanity.”

The ox continues chasing it’s own tail for millenia. If there is even a single awakened one, then even without doing anything, just through his very presence, that in itself is enough to have an impact upon thousands of people. It is almost as though one is pervading a certain invisible fragrance which cannot be detected, but which spans itself for miles and miles. Every individual in his own way contributes his own stream of energy towards the collective, in such a way that it is impossible for even the simplest of actions not to have an impact upon so many other lives. Just through a single thought arising, it may be impossible to believe the downward spiral of cause and effect that arises from it which influences so many other lives in the process. And because everything in existence is interconnected in such a complex way, it is impossible for a transformation of consciousness not to have an impact upon existence in so many different ways.

It should not be assumed that the only form of assisting others towards their liberation is to expose yourself and teach, a master has a million and one means, both in the body and beyond the body.

#18

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;57578]That wouldn’t be a very enlightened and wise approach would it :wink: It would be like saving one person, and leaving the rest of 999 people to sink on a ship.
Surely it is wiser to sacrifice one to save a village, sacrifice a village to save the country, sacrifice a country to save the world(Vidhura Niti)[/QUOTE]

Yes that is my curse also; ?what better purpose in this life then to serve others??

#19

I do not resonate with any particular tradition, Zen or otherwise.

Your actions say otherwise as you are constantly citing quotes and anecdotes from Zen.

More ignorance. If you had any understanding of the matter at all - you would drop all of your assumptions and projections as to how an awakened one should be. There are various ways to assist others towards their liberation, it does not necessarily mean going out into the world and speaking. In fact, one need not necessarily even remain in the body. There are various reasons why a Buddha may decide to teach or not to teach, there are no absolute standards.

Buddha did not choose to teach, the compassion within him chose it for him. I am not sure if you felt a bout of compassion before, but I will describe it to you because it has happened to me: your eyes well up with tears and you suddenly feel great love for another and you want to see that the others suffering ends and you are compelled to say or do something to help them.

Compassion is a natural quality a purified mind develops, something you agree with yourself. Anybody who comes under the power of compassion is compelled to help his fellow men. This is why Lord Rama, Lord Krishna, Lord Buddha and countless sages and risis have felt compelled to help humanity.

The enlightenment you are talking about is no enlightenment. It sounds like a cold and selfish sociopath. You are saying a lot about yourself right now.

To deny that humanity is your wider self is ridiculous. You are not an island, but you are a part of a global family: vasudeva kutumbukum. If it was not for your ancestors, parents. if it was not the tradition of scientists, artists, engineers, writers, visionaries, teachers, workers, freedom fighters etc etc you could not live as you do and nor could you have got an education, housing and the rights that you have.

We Hindus recognise 5 debts that we have to pay back: the debt to our ancestors, by continuing their work and improving humanity; the debt to the teacher by passing on that knowledge to the next generation; the debt to our parents, by looking after them in their old age as they did us; the debt to the planet by keeping our ecosystems green and clean and protecting the animals and forests etc. I acknowledge my debt and make an invocation to my ancestors, to humanity, to the elements etc before every meditation.

You are acting like we can escape from the world? No, we never escape from the world. Humanity is our wider self. When we reach enlightenment and greatness we share it with others. Krishna says in the Gita whoever holds onto greatness and does not share it with others, he snatches it away from them.

If there is even a single awakened one, then even without doing anything, just through his very presence, that in itself is enough to have an impact upon thousands of people. It is almost as though one is pervading a certain invisible fragrance which cannot be detected, but which spans itself for miles and miles.

This is what lazy people like you want to believe. First of all you want to believe you are enlightentened but have nothing to show for yourself. You pacify yourself by saying, “Those clowns with the siddhis, they went for the siddhis, but I went for enlightenment” then you pretend that everybody else that went before you is a liar. Then you believe you have to make no effort to help people, and even by sitting there in the comforts of your own home you are doing humanity a favour :smiley:

Your so-called enlightenment is good for nothing.

Real enlightened people bought down entire evil empires. Stop claiming you are enlightened, when you have nothing to show for it. It is like a genius claming to have a high iq, but not having a single IQ test to show for it :wink:

#20

Surya,

“Your actions say otherwise as you are constantly citing quotes and anecdotes from Zen”

What I have said arises as a direct expression of my own being, it has nothing whatsoever to do with Zen or otherwise. I do not speak out of borrowed knowledge, but out of my own direct experience. You may accept it or not accept it, like it or dislike it, it is irrelevant. And being as ignorant as you are regarding the Zen, you would know by now that my expressions are not to be found anywhere in Zen tadition. If you understood Zen, you would also be aware that it has nothing at all to do with tradition, nor is it a philosophy or a belief system. Truth is inexpressible, it cannot be organized. The whole spirit of Zen is simply to see directly into your true nature. The word itself comes from “dhyana”, and dhyana simply means meditation. So called “Zen” has nothing to do with philosophy or belief, including that of no-belief and no-philosophy. It is the very essence of all religion.

“I am not sure if you felt a bout of compassion before, but I will describe it to you because it has happened to me: your eyes well up with tears and you suddenly feel great love for another and you want to see that the others suffering ends and you are compelled to say or do something to help them”

That has nothing whatsoever to do with compassion, it is simply sentimentality. Compassion need not be that of a grandmotherly affection. It is simply an intelligence which is of such a quality, that it is willing to do whatever is necessary to assist others towards their liberation.

“Anybody who comes under the power of compassion is compelled to help his fellow men.”

It seems when you were reading my previous message you were not paying attention. There are countless methods to assist others towards their liberation, it need not take the form of teaching.

“The enlightenment you are talking about is no enlightenment.”

So far you have not demonstrated even a particle of indication that you have understood a single word that I have said.

“To deny that humanity is your wider self is ridiculous.”

I agree.

“We Hindus recognise 5 debts that we have to pay back: the debt to our ancestors”

It is because of the ways of your ancestors that you are as unconscious as you are.

“by continuing their work and improving humanity”

Seeing the whole history of humanity, which seems to be filled with nothing else except violence upon violence, greed, hatred - I do certainly hope that you do not continue their work. And at the pace at which things are going, it seems that unless man comes to a transformation, extinction seems to be the only option left.

“the debt to our parents, by looking after them in their old age as they did us”

If you have happened to have parents who have looked after you, then that is good. Yes, they have provided you with survival needs. But as far as your expansion is concerned, mots parents have been helping the individual to remain in a deep sleep. Rather than allowing the individual to seek and discover for himself, to function out of his own intelligence, already since the moment of birth they are trying to program you in their own image - projecting their own beliefs, philosophies, religions, and traditions. Parents are tremendously egoistic in the sense that they are just interested in creating a mirror reflection of themselves. Rather than being concerned with your liberation, they are far more interested in raising the child to fulfill their own egotism. That is in fact the only reason why most parents “love” their child. It is not Love, it is just a certain identification of the mind which is rooted in attachment. Because they have identified you as “their son” or “their daughter”, there is a certain sense of attachment which grows. This is not love. Yes, perhaps one should have gratitude towards them for whatever they have done to assist you towards fulfilling your survival, but as far as your spiritual expansion is concerned, they have created more barriers than they have destroyed. If the parents of the society were more awake, more compassionate, less egoistic, and less territorial just like an animal, then it would be impossible for the society to have remained in the state that it has been for centuries.

“the debt to the planet by keeping our ecosystems green and clean and protecting the animals and forests etc”

I agree.

“You are acting like we can escape from the world?”

Then you have probably misunderstood. My whole approach is integration, not renunciation.

"First of all you want to believe you are enlightentened "

One either knows or does not know, there can be no room for belief.

“but have nothing to show for yourself”

Then my message is not for you.

"You pacify yourself by saying, “Those clowns with the siddhis, they went for the siddhis, but I went for enlightenment”

Again, this shows that rather than having any sincere desire to understand what I have said, you have simply twisted the message according to your own prejudices. I have simply said that these siddhis do not indicate anything else except that certain aspects of one’s consciousness which were dormant have now become active. It does not mean that one is even a step closer to awakening, and there are those who have awakened siddhis who have remained as unconscious as they have always been. In fact, it is one’s entanglement in these siddhis which has often been a great cause for leading one towards a deeper and deeper unconsciousness - the possibility of becoming overwhelmed with egotism is immense.

Keep the stream of awareness moving from moment to moment, with an eye which is neither for or against. Even if a paradise passes by the scene, keep the stream of consciousness running, and the dragon peirces even through the highest empyrean.

“Then you believe you have to make no effort to help people”

As far as my own teaching is concerned, that is not my approach. And that is part of my whole teaching - that from birth till death, one should be intensely active in the Way - both working upon oneself as well as assisting others towards their own liberation once one is prepared for it.

What I have said previously has nothign to do with my own appproach, it is simply a fact that a master need not teach in order to assist others towards their liberation. My understanding of things is never in terms of absolutes. With every so called rule you can think of, you can find that there are more exceptions than one can care even to consider.