Are - you - enlightened?

Occidental,

“Beyond that, I find your telling me what I should/should not think is quite offensive (repulsive, actually”

I don’t care. And I have not told you what to think or should not think, I am simply stating facts. As long as you have yet to turn inwards and discover your own flame of insight, all of your speaking about something which has yet to come into the realm of your own experience is just a kind of entertainment designed to nourish one’s own ego.

“A mess in my mind, huh?”

Yes.

“Oh Amir, how do you know I haven’t done such things?”

Because transformation is such, that it is impossible for one’s words, knowledge, and understanding not to be impacted by it. The fragrance of it will be contained in your very words and will be reflected through all of your actions. For another who is also familiar with the fragrance, he will recognize it immediately. Just through reading your message for the first time - I already knew that, although perhaps enthusiastic for whatever reason, you were not speaking out of direct experience or had any sincere interest in enlightenment. There is nothing “inferior” or “superior” whether one is interested in enlightenment or not, whether one is enlightened or not, but if you have not come to one’s awakening one should not be pretending something which one is not like an actor on a stage. One can be simple, be yourself, and simply say that you do not know.

“On the contrary: I wear my motives on my sleeve, Amir - re-read the OP and this time with an eye to understanding as opposed to hasty judgement. Everyone here knows my motive.”

The motive you stated was not your real motive, and it is likely that you may not even be aware of what your real motive is.

“Look, Amir: (truly) enlightened individuals do not go around declaring their enlightenment because they know how easily people are influenced by such claims.”

More nonsense. Gautama Buddha referred to himself as the Tathagata (the one who has gone beyond). It was not a name that was given to him. In fact, he insisted that his disciples refer to him as such. And if you want, I can give you countless more examples of Buddhas who have openly declared their own awakening. For a Buddha, his freedom is not so cheap as to become contaminated by something as superficial as declaring something which is actually the case. Again, since you are not awakened, drop your ideas as to how an awakened one should be.

“There are laws and rules abound, Amir.”

If you means laws and rules in the sense of moral commandments, it is only the case if you are a slave. Otherwise, if you are living out of your own naturalness, there is no need for any observances of rules, there is a natural intelligence which needs no substitute. All of one’s moral rules and regulations are just a replacement for this natural intelligence. If you yourself are compassionate, then there is no need to observe a rule of non-violence. Because you are violent, you need to observe the rule of non-violence.

But if you mean natural limitations, certainly. At the level of one’s mind and body, one has to live according to the forces of nature. But if you come to know of that which is within which is beyond the mind and body, then there is a certain freedom beyond your physical and psychological limitations. That is what it means to be a Jivanmukta.

“you’re not interested in verification because you know you’ve failed the test, plain and simple”

I am not interested in verification because I know myself, through and through. And even if I were interested in your test, you are not qualified to be testing anybody. Settle your own condition first, and then start concerning yourself with others.

@Amir,

I don’t care

I didn’t think so.

And I have not told you what to think or should not think, I am simply stating facts

…What I should/should not think, yes.

As long as you have yet to turn inwards and discover your own flame of insight, all of your speaking about something which has yet to come into the realm of your own experience is just a kind of entertainment designed to nourish one’s own ego

Once again: how do you know I haven’t done such things?

“A mess in my mind, huh?”

Yes

…Right over your head.

“Oh Amir, how do you know I haven’t done such things?”

Because transformation is such, that it is impossible for one’s words, knowledge, and understanding not to be impacted by it. The fragrance of it will be contained in your very words and will be reflected through all of your actions

…You mean that I would behave like you, correct? What a joke, Amir.

For another who is also familiar with the fragrance, he will recognize it immediately

…Such as yourself, correct?

Just through reading your message for the first time - I already knew that, although perhaps enthusiastic for whatever reason, you were not speaking out of direct experience or had any sincere interest in enlightenment

…Because I don’t sound like you, correct?

One can be simple, be yourself, and simply say that you do not know

You’re one to speak, buddy.

“On the contrary: I wear my motives on my sleeve, Amir - re-read the OP and this time with an eye to understanding as opposed to hasty judgement. Everyone here knows my motive.”

The motive you stated was not your real motive, and it is likely that you may not even be aware of what your real motive is

…But you know, correct?

Gautama Buddha referred to himself as the Tathagata (the one who has gone beyond). It was not a name that was given to him. In fact, he insisted that his disciples refer to him as such. And if you want, I can give you countless more examples of Buddhas who have openly declared their own awakening

These examples count for nothing, Amir - I’d expect an enlightened individual to know that.

For a Buddha, his freedom is not so cheap as to become contaminated by something as superficial as declaring something which is actually the case. Again, since you are not awakened, drop your ideas as to how an awakened one should be

It’s not a matter of my “thinking about how enlightened individuals should be”, rather it’s a matter of common-sense or wisdom - something you seem to be lacking, considerably.

Again, since you are not awakened, drop your ideas as to how an awakened one should be

Likewise, you do not know what I have achieved, so drop your assumptions as per just who/what I am.

“There are laws and rules abound, Amir.”

If you means laws and rules in the sense of moral commandments, it is only the case if you are a slave. Otherwise, if you are living out of your own naturalness, there is no need for any observances of rules, there is a natural intelligence which needs no substitute. All of one’s moral rules and regulations are just a replacement for this natural intelligence. If you yourself are compassionate, then there is no need to observe a rule of non-violence. Because you are violent, you need to observe the rule of non-violence.

But if you mean natural limitations, certainly. At the level of one’s mind and body, one has to live according to the forces of nature. But if you come to know of that which is within which is beyond the mind and body, then there is a certain freedom beyond your physical and psychological limitations. That is what it means to be a Jivanmukta

Failure #what is it now? Amir, if you were truly as enlightened as you’ve claimed, you’d know just what I had meant - the whole test is just such a measure, actually.

I am not interested in verification because I know myself, through and through. And even if I were interested in your test, you are not qualified to be testing anybody. Settle your own condition first, and then start concerning yourself with others

Perhaps this is the difference between you and I, Amir: I put others first.

Thanks for your time.

What I wanna know is: how do you get all the segmented quotes imbedded in the reply? Know what I mean? Can someone enlighten me on that one?

[QUOTE=FlexPenguin;58600]What I wanna know is: how do you get all the segmented quotes imbedded in the reply? Know what I mean? Can someone enlighten me on that one?[/QUOTE]

I guess you scroll down on the reply screen.

Select your text.

“copy & paste” into your reply box.

Highlight the now ‘pasted’ words in your reply box.

click the “little dialogue bubble” icon on the tool bar. second from right.

or

you could copy what you would like to respond too and put in the HTML
formating command

[quote] blah blah blah come to your space and have a fragrance. Your asleep. blah blab blab. [/qoute]

quote is mispelled just like mispelled is mispelled.

Sounds like a lot of work to me.

What I have said has been very straightforward and direct. It may be liked or disliked, but there is nothing mysterious, mystical, or complicated about it.

If it straightforward and direct then why is everybody saying it is vague and foggy. Nothing you are saying is straight forward, you speak in riddles and parables. But ultimately you are just saying the same thing in every post

“You must come to a direct experience of your true nature”
“You must come to understand your ignorance”
“I know the nature of my being through and through”

If you have experienced the space- then speak. If you have not, then shut up.

You only believe you have experienced enlightenment. Great, some people believe they are Napolian :smiley: There is no shortage of deluded people on this planet, join the club.

I will start taking you seriously when you provide evidence for your enlightenenment. Until then you just like the people who believe they are Napolian to me. Interpret that how you want.

Occidental,

“Once again: how do you know I haven’t done such things?”

I have already explained how such a thing is possible.

Surya,

“But ultimately you are just saying the same thing in every post”

Yes, because whatever appears different outwardly are just superficial. Most of man’s problems are largely arising out of one fundamental root cause. But, if you want to look into the mechanics as to the means to come to more and more awareness, then there are a million and one different means. And again - I want to make this clear, that without practice, all of one’s interest in Yoga is just as a kind of entertainment.

“I will start taking you seriously when you provide evidence for your enlightenenment.”

You have already assumed that enlightenment can be proven in terms of something tangible that you can grasp. It can only be demonstrated directly. That does not mean that if you can perform some siddhi which any idiot can perform with enough training, that you are awakened. At the most, perhaps you can be called a magician. Enlightenment, as something observed in another, is certain wisdom that can only be demonstrated through one’s very living presence. Even then - you have to have already come to the space to recognize it - a master is needed to recognize a master. So in the meantime, I would suggest that you completely forget about this absurd idea of proving one’s enlightenment, and even enlightenment itself.

Occidental,

“Perhaps this is the difference between you and I, Amir: I put others first”

Because you have not yet settled your own condition, such a thing can only be disasterous.

“Likewise, you do not know what I have achieved, so drop your assumptions as per just who/what I am.”

Yes, I do. To see straight through your mask and into your very being is my whole function. You have not even settled the foundation of the work. One can continue denying this - pretending as though one can deceive others, but you should not that if you come across one who has a bit more experience than yourself, he will be able to see straight through you like an arrow.

@Amir,

I have already explained how such a thing is possible

…And what a riveting tale it was, Amir; as much as I appreciate the stories, how about some facts?

Because you have not yet settled your own condition, such a thing can only be disasterous

Well, I guess someone should go tell all the yogis of the world that karma yoga is simply out of the question then, huh?

Yes, I do. To see straight through your mask and into your very being is my whole function. You have not even settled the foundation of the work. One can continue denying this - pretending as though one can deceive others, but you should not that if you come across one who has a bit more experience than yourself, he will be able to see straight through you like an arrow

…Are you seeing me or are you seeing your reflection? Think on that.

Thanks for your time.

@Amir,

…I’m going to drop a bomb here:

Honestly, if you - truly - think that enlightenment is utterly inexpressible, immeasurable, and/or indiscernable, such that only masters can recognize each other - ie: that no one else besides could ascertain the veracity of your claims (etc.), then - why - would you ever mention your supposed enlightenment to others, in the first place Amir; what, pray tell, would be the motive behind that, do you suppose?

Understand: another master wouldn’t need your claim to recognize “the fragrance”, nor would the unenlightened need your claim because they couldn’t verify it, anyways…

So: why, Amir; what possible excuse can you conjure this time?

Thanks for your time.

Enlightenment, as something observed in another, is certain wisdom that can only be demonstrated through one’s very living presence. Even then - you have to have already come to the space to recognize it - a master is needed to recognize a master. So in the meantime, I would suggest that you completely forget about this absurd idea of proving one’s enlightenment, and even enlightenment itself.

So basically a master is needed to recognise a master. Then why go around announcing your enlightenment, for nobody will be able to recognise your enlightenment other than the master. You are not enlightened enough to know it is pointless to announce your enlightenment to the unenlightened? :wink:

Your claim comes under the category of unfalsifiable belief. In the same group as people who believe they are Napolian or Jesus. Just as you would not take seriously such a person, I cannot take you seriously. You are making extraordinary claims and have nothing to show for it - the rest of the world will see you as a fool, when you see yourself as enlightened.

As for your advice of dropping my ideas of enlightenment. Sorry, while you want to pretend that ignorance is bliss - I am a practical and rational person, so I need knowledge. Ignorance is not acceptable to me. I have done my research and I have a fairly good idea of what enlightenment is and what are the signs and stages one must pass. You do not fit any of the criteria - so either my research is wrong or you’re wrong? I am going to wager it is you - because you have nothing to show for yourself - whereas Patanjali, Yogananda et al do :wink:

@SD,

So basically a master is needed to recognise a master. Then why go around announcing your enlightenment, for nobody will be able to recognise your enlightenment other than the master. You are not enlightened enough to know it is pointless to announce your enlightenment to the unenlightened?

As I said above about 5 hours ago - I’ll take it as a compliment, SD.

I have done my research and I have a fairly good idea of what enlightenment is and what are the signs and stages one must pass

That’s a pretty ridiculous claim there too, SD - given what I’ve seen from you thus far, I’m not all that impressed. Of course, you’ll have to wait your turn - I want to finish dealing with Amir, first.

Thanks for your time.

As I said above about 5 hours ago - I’ll take it as a compliment, SD.

Mat you still behave like the world revolves around you. It is possible for two people independent of one another to make the same criticism you know :wink: Do you think you are the only one who noticed the irony? Another irony friend is that initially when I criticized pointed out Amir claims he is enlightened in the other thread, you attacked me for it. Now you are making similar criticisms of Amir I had made before :wink:

That’s a pretty ridiculous claim there too, SD - given what I’ve seen from you thus far, I’m not all that impressed. Of course, you’ll have to wait your turn

You think too highly of yourself. I am not here to impress you and I am not sitting in a line waiting for you to address me.

I think I can see why Amir conflicts with you. You also have delusions of grandeur, and his self-claimed grandeur and greatness is conflicting with your own beliefs of your own greatness.

Btw you still have not shown any of your credentials for your claim that you can test for enlightenment. Now’s that’s ridiculous my friend.

If you only saw a single ray of light, you are entitled to wear that title.
But how that compares to the Sun ?

[QUOTE=Hubert;58792]If you only saw a single ray of light, you are entitled to wear that title.
But how that compares to the Sun ?[/QUOTE]

how true

matt

your not treading any new ground here with Amir. I’ve been down this road with him. You haven’t said a thing that I haven’t already said. Your just saying it again . . .

Now will you answer my question?

Hi Amir, can you tell me if you have met your inner Guru?

@SD,

Mat you still behave like the world revolves around you. It is possible for two people independent of one another to make the same criticism you know

Sure - except there was a 5 hour difference between our posts or did you forget that part?

It has nothing to do with “behaving as if the world revolves around me”, but rather calling it as I sees it: “mr. credentials” was parroting - and you don’t like that.

Another irony friend is that initially when I criticized pointed out Amir claims he is enlightened in the other thread, you attacked me for it. Now you are making similar criticisms of Amir I had made before

I was never defending Amir’s claim to enlightenment SD, but rather some of the points he was making against you which were sound. As I said to Asuri - who was similiarly confused, it matters not who has said it only that it has been said.

Understand: I am vehemently against Amir’s claim to enlightenment, but - other then that - he’s a decent guy. I could care less whether or not he teaches or considers himself a guru, in so far as he doesn’t go around calling himself enlightened. I find the claim to enlightenment manipulative, much as waving around “credentials” - in that sense, you and Amir have alot in common buddy; the mistake you call him on is also - your - mistake, in a sense.

How’s that for irony?

As for parroting you: ha - that’s a laugh.

You think too highly of yourself

You’re one to speak, buddy.

I am not here to impress you and I am not sitting in a line waiting for you to address me

So what is all this talk about “credentials” then SD, if not about impressing people?

I think I can see why Amir conflicts with you

Yes - and so can everyone else: I called him out on his claim to enlightenment, plain and simple.

You also have delusions of grandeur, and his self-claimed grandeur and greatness is conflicting with your own beliefs of your own greatness

…Or maybe thats why - you - constantly engage him, huh?

Btw you still have not shown any of your credentials for your claim that you can test for enlightenment. Now’s that’s ridiculous my friend

On the contrary: what’s ridiculous is that you need “credentials” to make decisions.

@Scales

your not treading any new ground here with Amir. I’ve been down this road with him. You haven’t said a thing that I haven’t already said. Your just saying it again . . .

Oh really?

Are you enlightened?

If you had - actually - been reading this thread, you’d already know my answer.

Also I’m curious. From what source did you gather the criterion for the ‘levels?’[sic]

Not the Vedas, that’s for sure.

Thanks for your time.