Are - you - enlightened?

Spirituality Religion
#121

Yes Matt.

Really.

[B]‘projecting’

‘how do you know I haven’t done such a thing?’

"it is serious bad ju ju to claim something like this and lead others into delusion. "Digging the hole deeper and deeper. Etc . . . "

“parroting”

‘access to knowledge beyond ordinary means.’[/B]

[B]“speaking in grays and ambiguity.”[/B]

The essentials are the same.

[B]You’d just have to read my post history with him to discover this. [/B]

Your late to the party. and just like me - you’ll be wasting energy getting nowhere…

He’s convinced.

your welcome.

#122

Sure - except there was a 5 hour difference between our posts or did you forget that part?

It has nothing to do with “behaving as if the world revolves around me”, but rather calling it as I sees it: “mr. credentials” was parroting - and you don’t like that.

It has nothing to do with “behaving as if the world revolves around me”, but rather calling it as I sees it: “mr. credentials” was parroting - and you don’t like that.

I made a point that is similar to yours you made 5 hours ago, this means I copiedwhat you were saying? You do indeed act like the world revolves around you. As if I need to read your opinions on Amir to form my own opinion?

Myself, The Scales, Asuri etc have already made many similar criticisms of Amir in the past, long before you joined the forum. And come on if somebody said to you, “Only a master can recognise another master” most people are going to think, “Well in that case, why are you telling us you’re enlightened then” Do you think you are only one in this world that can derive that?

You got just here and act like you own the place. You’re almost as self-absorbed as Amir is, if not more. But that was clear from the start when you joined this forum as Yogimat, barged into the Yoga is Hinduism thread and behaved like you owned the thread, acted like everybody was posting for you, made a fool of yourself with asinine arguments. Then announced you would be leaving, made your final insults and vanished. A a few days later rejoin the forum with your new handle and post a thread to praise ‘Yogimat’ (which got deleted, because ip addresses can be checked :wink: ) You’re clearly a tool.

I find the claim to enlightenment manipulative, much as waving around “credentials” - in that sense, you and Amir have alot in common buddy; the mistake you call him on is also - your - mistake, in a sense.

I have not repeatedly been going around this forum waving my degree about. I have on only very rare occasions bought it up when either I was talking about my personal history in the relevant discussion, or when somebody undermined my knowledge. You undermined my knowledge of philosophy, yoga and science, so I pointed out my crendetials to show I do indeed know what I am talking about. You on the other hand refused to produce credentials - and still refuse to produce them. Why? Most likely because you don’t have any.

I will ask you again what credentials do you have to test for enlightenment such that the person taking your test if fails should revoke their claim to enlightenment? Why should we treat your judgements with anymore authority than the opinions of others? I think the likely answer is “Because you think highly of yourself”

By the way please learn to quote entire paragraphs, rather than breaking paragraphs into single sentences and sentences into a few words. This is a formal fallacy of taking people words out of context.

#123

The wise have already declared enlightenment to be “that, by knowing which, one knows all”.

Knowing or realizing atman is “that”.

Thus any movement towards realizing atman would constitute a movement towards enlightenment. Intermediate positions would constitute the wide variety of enlightenments being variously proposed in this discussion.

Realizing the law of karma is enlightenment. Knowing how to transcend it, is enlightenment. Taking the necessary steps for this is enlightenment. We can go on ad infinitum.

#124

By the way Matt is the only member on this forum who ends his posts with thanks for your time or thanks for your contribution. We all know how sincere that is :wink:

I am quite use to it though being an ex new agers. Many new agers are good for nothing - they behave like they are enlightened and you should worship the ground they walk on and be blessed to hear them speak - why? - simply because they believe it :smiley: There was a funny incident in a spiritual church when two guys started being really bitchy with one another in the open circle, and what they were arguing over was hilarious - who is more developed out of the two and neither had anything to show than the fact they believed they were IT.

#125

I should take my own advice. I knew this guy lacked integrity as soon as SD THE BRUCE rooted him out.

Nice Job Surya on the ownage as usual.

#126

[B]How to Become an Internet Troll[/B]
By an eHow Contributor

http://www.ehow.com/how_2064125_become-internet-troll.html

You’re sitting at your computer, completely bored and looking for something to amuse yourself with. Sure, you can check out porn sites (again), or you can have a little harmless fun by trolling message boards, chat rooms and online forums. What’s a troll you ask?

In technical terms, an internet troll is someone who aims to cause emotional abuse to the participants of an online. In layman terms, a troll is someone who wants to ruffle feathers and stir the pot for their own amusement. They do this by planting inflammatory messages against a sensitive topic, disrupting and discrediting members who support the topic.

Difficulty: Moderately Easy
Instructions

1
Secure your internet privacy. Hide your identity from the websites that you visit. One way to achieve privacy is by using an anonymous proxy server as a mediator between you and the websites you visit. Another way to do this is by downloading and installing a free software called “tor.”

Also, create an anonymous email for trolling. During the registration, use false contact information to conceal your identity from internet investigators.

2
Find an unmoderated online community that is established around a cultural, political or religious theme. Make sure that the topics offered are ones you will enjoy abusing. If you really want to be a jerk, go to one of the more popular portals like AOL and post messages in topics that cover disasters and controversial events.

3
Contribute nothing of value to the discussion forum. As a good troll, your goal is to abuse the members psychologically and provoke negative reactions out of them. Go big or don’t go in at all. Have fun with it, when someone counter-attacks, get playful with them–nothing pisses off someone in a rage than when you joke around with them.

4
Make personal attacks repeatedly toward those who support the ethos of the group. Get as nasty as you want, after all, it’s the internet–who’s going to find you? Keep it fun though, don’t threaten to do any bodily harm to anyone, no one wants to get in a physical altercation.

5
Argue repeatedly, using irrelevant facts, so that you disrupt the flow of the thread.

6
Expose the stupidity of new, unsuspecting members by trying to engage them in an argument when it is very well-known that you yourself do not believe your position.

7
Plague that newsgroup for years. View your troll activity as a form of art. Add sophistication and complexity as you progress

Read more: How to Become an Internet Troll | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/how_2064125_become-internet-troll.html#ixzz1Kq81yhNG

#127

Anand ji,

The definition for what enlightenment was given at the very start of thread by me. It is not my definition, it is the definition from the Vedas. As you say it self-realization. When one has stilled all the vrittis of the mind then this leaves a pure mind state. This is enlightenment. This is the proper scientific definition.

The rest of the thread was just excess. The problem is people do not like being given simple and direct answers. They want to speculate, discuss, debate, complicate. This is generally the problem with the Western mind. Rather than just opening your eyes and seeing reality clearly, they would rather think about it, theorize, make mathematical models to represent it and complicate it endlessly.

Rater than clearing away vrittis they just create more.

#128

Toro, toro!

@Scales,

Yes Matt.

Really.

‘projecting’

‘how do you know I haven’t done such a thing?’

"it is serious bad ju ju to claim something like this and lead others into delusion. "Digging the hole deeper and deeper. Etc . . . "

“parroting”

‘access to knowledge beyond ordinary means.’

“speaking in grays and ambiguity.”

The essentials are the same.

You’d just have to read my post history with him to discover this.

Your late to the party. and just like me - you’ll be wasting energy getting nowhere…

He’s convinced.

your welcome

This has got to be the single worst post in this whole thread, Scales - congratulations; it takes real skill to fail that hard.

Nice Job Surya on the ownage as usual

“The ownage” - are you 13, Scales?

How to Become an Internet Troll
By an eHow Contributor

http://www.ehow.com/how_2064125_beco...net-troll.html

You’re sitting at your computer, completely bored and looking for something to amuse yourself with. Sure, you can check out porn sites (again), or you can have a little harmless fun by trolling message boards, chat rooms and online forums. What’s a troll you ask?

In technical terms, an internet troll is someone who aims to cause emotional abuse to the participants of an online. In layman terms, a troll is someone who wants to ruffle feathers and stir the pot for their own amusement. They do this by planting inflammatory messages against a sensitive topic, disrupting and discrediting members who support the topic.

Difficulty: Moderately Easy
Instructions

1
Secure your internet privacy. Hide your identity from the websites that you visit. One way to achieve privacy is by using an anonymous proxy server as a mediator between you and the websites you visit. Another way to do this is by downloading and installing a free software called “tor.”

Also, create an anonymous email for trolling. During the registration, use false contact information to conceal your identity from internet investigators.

2
Find an unmoderated online community that is established around a cultural, political or religious theme. Make sure that the topics offered are ones you will enjoy abusing. If you really want to be a jerk, go to one of the more popular portals like AOL and post messages in topics that cover disasters and controversial events.

3
Contribute nothing of value to the discussion forum. As a good troll, your goal is to abuse the members psychologically and provoke negative reactions out of them. Go big or don’t go in at all. Have fun with it, when someone counter-attacks, get playful with them–nothing pisses off someone in a rage than when you joke around with them.

4
Make personal attacks repeatedly toward those who support the ethos of the group. Get as nasty as you want, after all, it’s the internet–who’s going to find you? Keep it fun though, don’t threaten to do any bodily harm to anyone, no one wants to get in a physical altercation.

5
Argue repeatedly, using irrelevant facts, so that you disrupt the flow of the thread.

6
Expose the stupidity of new, unsuspecting members by trying to engage them in an argument when it is very well-known that you yourself do not believe your position.

7
Plague that newsgroup for years. View your troll activity as a form of art. Add sophistication and complexity as you progress

Read more: How to Become an Internet Troll | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/how_2064125_beco…#ixzz1Kq81yhNG

This response of yours sounds a whole lot like what it’s describing, actually.

@SD,

I made a point that is similar to yours you made 5 hours ago, this means I copied[sic] what you were saying?

It wasn’t - just - similiar, it was practically word-for-word. Now, you certainly could have come up with it on your own, true, but there is significant room for reasonable doubt here - about 5 hours difference significant room.

As if I need to read your opinions on Amir to form my own opinion?

…That wasn’t an opinion, SD - it was an argument; one which I created in such a way as to trap Amir in his own little game of “dodge the bullet”.

Myself, The Scales, Asuri etc have already made many similar criticisms of Amir in the past, long before you joined the forum

Once again: it wasn’t mere criticism, but an argument SD. Secondly if you, Scales or Asuri had made such an argument a long time ago, this discussion would have been over with already - before I had even arrived, I think.

And come on if somebody said to you, “Only a master can recognise another master” most people are going to think, “Well in that case, why are you telling us you’re enlightened then” Do you think you are only one in this world that can derive that?

Be that as it may:

  1. I didn’t just think it - I said it.
  2. I created an argument from my observations which will pose a significant challenge to his claim.
  3. You didn’t - and that’s a fact SD, one which just pisses you off; I knew this was going happen at some point.

You got just here and act like you own the place

I don’t know if you’ve noticed, SD, but:

  1. I have only posted in two threads, and more recently only one.
  2. I only argue with you, Amir and now Scales - no one else.

So, how can you say that I am “acting as if I own the place”; that claim seems a tad exaggerated, don’t you think?

You’re almost as self-absorbed as Amir is, if not more

Once again: you’re one to talk.

But that was clear from the start when you joined this forum as Yogimat, barged into the Yoga is Hinduism thread and behaved like you owned the thread, acted like everybody was posting for you, made a fool of yourself with asinine arguments. Then announced you would be leaving, made your final insults and vanished. A a few days later rejoin the forum with your new handle and post a thread to praise ‘Yogimat’ (which got deleted, because ip addresses can be checked) You’re clearly a tool

Take up my 1000 US dollar bet, then SD - prove your certainty to everyone here, especially before you go around calling people tools only to find out that you where wrong all along and look more like the tool, yourself. Understand: SD, I’m all for the testing! Bring it on! Stop acting like such a coward - be a man and either:

A). accept my bet
B). admit your uncertainty

I have not repeatedly been going around this forum waving my degree about

I beg to differ - do you think I do not read the rest of the forum?

…or when somebody undermined my knowledge

Bingo! …And what did you do, SD? You pulled out your degree…

You on the other hand refused to produce credentials - and still refuse to produce them. Why? Most likely because you don’t have any

You can suppose whatever you want, SD but I simply will not sink to your level; I refuse to leverage my position with “credentials”. …And if that means no one listens to me, so be it.

I will ask you again what credentials do you have to test for enlightenment such that the person taking your test if fails should revoke their claim to enlightenment?

…You mean, more precisely, what is/are my source(s)?

Alas, I do not cast pearls. Should you - actually - want to know, sometime, maybe I’d offer what I have but until then my lips are sealed SD.

Why should we treat your judgements with anymore authority than the opinions of others?

You shouldn’t if you cannot recognize the sense in it - nor should you make decisions based upon “credentials”.

I think the likely answer is “Because you think highly of yourself”

Nope - that’s not the answer.

By the way please learn to quote entire paragraphs, rather than breaking paragraphs into single sentences and sentences into a few words. This is a formal fallacy of taking people words out of context

That’s cute, SD - but the fallacy of quoting out of context requires a little bit more than simply not quoting entire paragraphs. Understand: I break the paragraphs down into bits because most people do not write paragraphs, properly - they introduce multiple ideas in the same paragraph. To avoid confusing the readers, I seperate the ideas and deal with them individually, such that they are exposed for everyone to see and not hidden in a mass of useless verbiage. Clarity is the word.

By the way Matt is the only member on this forum who ends his posts with thanks for your time or thanks for your contribution. We all know how sincere that is

  1. “Mat” doesn’t end his posts with Thanks for your time - I do.
  2. “Mat” isn’t here anymore - I am.
  3. Saying Thanks for your time is meaning to give thanks to those who took the time out of their lives to read my response. You can claim what you want of it…

I am quite use to it though being an ex new agers. Many new agers are good for nothing - they behave like they are enlightened and you should worship the ground they walk on and be blessed to hear them speak - why? - simply because they believe it

More assumptions - if mr. enlightenment couldn’t say who/what I am, what makes you think - you - can, SD? Ah, yes - your “credentials”…

Thanks for your time.

#129

That wasn’t an opinion, SD - it was an argument; one which I created in such a way as to trap Amir in his own little game of “dodge the bullet”.

Quote:
Myself, The Scales, Asuri etc have already made many similar criticisms of Amir in the past, long before you joined the forum

Once again: it wasn’t mere criticism, but an argument SD. Secondly if you, Scales or Asuri had made such an argument a long time ago, this discussion would have been over with already - before I had even arrived, I think.

You really are almost as delusional as Amir is. He thinks he’s enlightened, and you think you are a genius with such sharp wit that only you can come up with arguments of such power you can end entire discussions. Do you really think Amir is trapped and cornered by your argument that he is going to now post and revoke his claim to enlightenment and go and jump of a bridge because you showed him up? :wink:

The reason that none of our arguments and criticisms had had an effect on Amir is because Amir is unreasonable. In fact the same reason why none of mine or Scales arguments are having an effect on you.

By the way a criticism can also be an argument - geez.

You are boring me now, just like Yogimat did.

Why did you start this pointless thread? Nobody has taken up your challenge. You refuse to reveal what your great test is and how it can tell whether you are enlightened or not.

So whats the point of the thread? End of thread.

#130

This one kills me.

#131

750×600 75.8 KB

#132

Ok.

I'm done.

Bye mat.

Thanks for the info!

#133

“Then why go around announcing your enlightenment, for nobody will be able to recognise your enlightenment other than the master. You are not enlightened enough to know it is pointless to announce your enlightenment to the unenlightened?”

Surya,

I cannot agree. Others do not have to be enlightened to take advantage of the presence of the enlightened. As a teacher, declaring one’s own enlightenment does have a particular function. It simply means that because you have realized your own true nature, you can assist others towards the same realization. Otherwise, what is the point of helping others along the path ?

#134

Surya,

I cannot agree. Others do not have to be enlightened to take advantage of the presence of the enlightened. As a teacher, declaring one’s own enlightenment does have a particular function. It simply means that because you have realized your own true nature, you can assist others towards the same realization. Otherwise, what is the point of helping others along the path ?

Haha, thanks Amir :smiley: (OC so much for “your” clinching argument :wink: ) Just as Amir has rationalized it, you are now going to rationalize why your genius argument(which you had to point out was yours) did not work.

Apologies Amir for talking about you in the third person. Now to address your response. You have provided the following statements:

  1. You are enlightened
  2. Only an enlightened person can recognise another unenlightened person
  3. You declare your enlightenment to others to help them

Is it reasonable to conclude from this:

  1. You want people who you help to believe you are enlightened In other words you want them to have faith in your enlightenment.
#135

kareng,

“Hi Amir, can you tell me if you have met your inner Guru?”

What do you mean by inner Guru ?

#136

Surya,

You want people who you help to believe you are enlightened In other words you want them to have faith in your enlightenment.

No, faith in my enlightenment is not going to be of any help whatsoever. If one has any intelligence, one should question it, as one should question everything. The whole problem is that one has accepted far too many things without question, and one has not done the necessary investigation that is needed to become more aware of the realities of life. What I can do is describe the path from my own experience as well as the method, then it is up to you to explore into it out of ones own intelligence. If one wants evidence for what I am saying, then one will have to practice the method, there is no other way. This is how trust develops, you will slowly have to verify everything that I am saying through direct experience, from the beginning of the path to theend`.

#137

[QUOTE=AmirMourad;58896]" Others do not have to be enlightened to take advantage of the presence of the enlightened. As a teacher, declaring one’s own enlightenment does have a particular function. It simply means that because you have realized your own true nature, you can assist others towards the same realization. Otherwise, what is the point of helping others along the path ?[/QUOTE]

So then it has a business purpose. I see. You should try focusing more on the buddha in others.

#138

No, faith in my enlightenment is not going to be of any help whatsoever.

If one wants evidence for what I am saying, then one will have to practice the method, there is no other way. This is how trust develops, you will slowly have to verify everything that I am saying through direct experience, from the beginning of the path to the end.

Amir dear, there appears to be a logical inconsistency in what you are saying.

You say that only an enlightened person can recognise another enlightened person.
Then you say that you announce your enlightenment to assist people
Now you are saying that faith in your enlightenment is not going to help, they must verify everything you are saying by doing your methods

But surely for one to dedicate their time and energy to do your methods in the first place requires some faith in you and faith in the possiblity of your enlightenment or even the notion of there being enlightenment. Otherwise why would somebody waste their time and energy commiting to you?

#139

@SD,

You really are almost as delusional as Amir is

Is that the kettle calling the teapot black, again?

He thinks he’s enlightened, and you think you are a genius with such sharp wit that only you can come up with arguments of such power you can end entire discussions

I’ll take that as a compliment, SD.

Do you really think Amir is trapped and cornered by your argument that he is going to now post and revoke his claim to enlightenment and go and jump of a bridge because you showed him up?

  1. Yes, he is trapped.
  2. No, I do not expect him to publically revoke his claim to enlightenment - not that it matters now, anyways.
  3. I would certainly hope that he would not go jumping off a bridge because of this - that would be foolish.

The reason that none of our arguments and criticisms had had an effect on Amir is because Amir is unreasonable

He is not - completely - unreasonable, which is why I try SD.

When I first arrived here, I saw an individual with incredible potential - but there was this nasty catch .22 about him: he already believed he was at the “top of the heap”, so to speak. This, then, is stagnation of growth; crystallization; death without progress - a million other things besides, but the point is made. I thought, “how nice it would be to have a conversation with this one” but - alas - how could I, when I could see that I would only be treated as his inferior; a fool? I had to wonder: what give and take could possibly come of this rather lop-sided relationship? Thus, in time, Amir’s arrogance became a project of mine - and I knew he would dislike it, but I had to do it; I had to take up the banner of the Warrior King and fight - not Amir - but his illusions and fictions. He would see me attacking him, but in reality this is not so - I was trying to free him, hacking at the chains of his own forging.

Understand: I’m not arguing that Amir is dumb or some such rubbish SD, but only that he is not as enlightened as he’d like to think nor is this about me and feeling superior - it’s just about helping him, plain and simple. As I said above: I think he’s a decent guy, aside from this claim - if he could put that aside, things would change durastically. Hell, there are certain qualities about him that I do very much admire - however, I haven’t bothered to mention such until now because all it would have done is stroke his ego and affirm the right-ness of his will-to-power.

In fact the same reason why none of mine or Scales arguments are having an effect on you

I’m sorry to burst your bubble here, buddy, but the reason your arguments don’t work is because they fail - that’s it; they’re just not as good as you seem to think they are, SD.

For example: am I supposed to be taking pictures of cats at keyboards seriously, do you suppose? No - that’s not arguing, that’s called “baiting”.

By the way a criticism can also be an argument - geez

Regardless of this, my point still stands.

You are boring me now, just like Yogimat did

Oh, I’m sorry SD - I didn’t know I was a three-ring circus here for your entertainment.

Why did you start this pointless thread?

The point is clear - the only ones who don’t get it is you and your posse.

Nobody has taken up your challenge

They didn’t need to - this whole thread became the test. It’s not my fault you lack perception, SD.

You refuse to reveal what your great test is and how it can tell whether you are enlightened or not

Reflect on the happenings of this thread and you - might - be able to discern it.

So whats the point of the thread? End of thread

You’re right about one thing, SD - this thread is done.

@Amir,

Peace, frater.

Thanks for your time.

#140