Brilliant! Not much else to say, except brilliant again! You do some great thinking while ill!
well lets see whats said about that Yulaw:-D
Can a Yogi be a Christian?
The square/rectangle analogy doesn’t work if one is not the subset of the other, and I don’t think that’s the case.
At any rate, ANYONE who is not a Christian may become a Christian by accepting what Christians believe and by discarding any baggage that they are currently carrying which is in conflict with Christianity, which pretty much puts us at the same place as the original question.
[QUOTE=thomas;41286]Can a Yogi be a Christian?
The square/rectangle analogy doesn’t work if one is not the subset of the other, and I don’t think that’s the case.
At any rate, ANYONE who is not a Christian may become a Christian by accepting what Christians believe and by discarding any baggage that they are currently carrying which is in conflict with Christianity, which pretty much puts us at the same place as the original question.[/QUOTE]
A true Christian response.
Can a yogi be a Christian may or may not, from the Yogi’s point of view, have anything to do with discarding anything. Therefore from the Yogi side of the issue it may or may not put one right back to the original question. It could be a very different question actually.
Mathematically, if you could ask a square if it was a rectangle it would say yes I am a rectangle but mathematically if you ask a rectangle is it is square it will say no. A square need not discard anything to be a rectangle but a rectangle has to discard part of 2 sides to be a square.
But since you can’t ask either of them ask a mathematician because talking to squares and rectangles may make one look as if they are a few fries shy of a happy meal 
What is a yogi?
What is a Christian?
We could debate both questions for a couple of years.
And then we could address your question and maybe come up with an answer by 2015.
There is no need for a debate.
A Yogi is one whose highest value of life is self-development and who practices self development in this life. They have no other priority. As soon as they become aware of the Self, their aim is then to achieive it through Yoga. This involves stuff like mind-body training via exercise, diet, meditation and balanced living.
A Christian is one whose highest value in life is to attain salvation in the hereafter. To pass the test of judgement day and be given an immortal body to live a life of eternal happiness with god his son Jesus. In order to achieive this they endeavour to live a religious life by not sinning. This involves stuff like attending church, praying, confessing sins and following the dictates of the chuch. As well as adhering to the 10 commandments and striving to love others and bring them to Jesus.
Neither are the values the same or the goal.
End of debate.
A Yogi is one whose highest value of life is self-development and who practices self development in this life.
And Christians don’t practice self development? Of course they do. Why wouldn’t they? This is how they would reach salvation.
They have no other priority. As soon as they become aware of the Self, their aim is then to achieive it through Yoga. This involves stuff like mind-body training via exercise, diet, meditation and balanced living.
And this excludes Christians how? I certainly hope they are aware of self. I do believe Christians exercise, watch their diet, meditate via prayers and try to live a good balanced life.
Neither are the values the same or the goal.
End of debate.
If you look at the sutras and the eight fold path, many, if not all the ideas can be applied to most religions. Goal is the same. As far as values, who cares? If the goals are basically the same and the values are based on attaining those goals or goal, it matters not whether you are a christian, jew or muslim. The end goal is the same albeit different paths.
I don’t believe we can be so narrow minded in our views here. Yoga, whether it is embraced though Hinduism, christianity, etc can lead to living a better, happier life. Why would anyone deny that of another?
And I do believe Yulaw stated this brilliantly.
[QUOTE=kareng;41176]Surya says…It is clear to any honest person that Yoga provides what Christianity does not provide. To be honest, Christianity provides nothing more than false promises of salvation in the life here after.
Kareng says…The things is you dont know that, it goes back to what I said about many Christians must have experienced the divine at some point in History and will in the now and in the future and no matter what can be said about any religion/or practice it is the individual that the divine reaches out to when on a spiritual quest and even when they are not. Yoga I agree provides the individual with steps of truth towards self realisation that may be more comforting in progress/proof terms But the divine is present in both.[/QUOTE]
Well put …!
I am in total agreement with Lotusgirl on this Surya, Ive backtracked to what I said previously, not feeling too good today, save me typing.xx
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;41313]End of debate.[/QUOTE]
It ain’t over 'til it’s over. - [B][U]Yogi[/U][/B] Berra
[QUOTE=thomas;41300]What is a yogi?
What is a Christian?
We could debate both questions for a couple of years.
And then we could address your question and maybe come up with an answer by 2015.[/QUOTE]
Then why don’t we?
Oh Oh, I sense a challenge here!
[QUOTE=Yulaw;41329]Then why don’t we?[/QUOTE]
I could come up with a good definition for a Christian (that not all who call themselves Christians would accept, but would be accepted by most), but I can’t define “yogi.”
[QUOTE=thomas;41337]I could come up with a good definition for a Christian (that not all who call themselves Christians would accept, but would be accepted by most), but I can’t define “yogi.”[/QUOTE]
Then post it.
I am sure someone will come up with another definition as well as a definition of a yogi.
To start lets start with dictionary definitions to try and avoid the emotional attchments that go with both of these words and see where it goes
[B][U]yogi[/U][/B]
- a person who practices yoga.
- a person who is a master of yoga
Word Origin & History
yogi - “one who practices yoga,” 1619, from Hindi yogi , from Skt. yoga-
Origin: 1610–20; < Skt yogī, nom. sing. of yogin, deriv. of yoga yoga
yogini - female
[B][U]Christian[/U][/B]
1.of, pertaining to, or derived from Jesus Christ or His teachings: a Christian faith.
2. of, pertaining to, believing in, or belonging to the religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christ: Spain is a Christian country.
3. of or pertaining to Christians: many Christian deaths in the Crusades.
4.exhibiting a spirit proper to a follower of Jesus Christ; Christlike: She displayed true Christian charity.
5. decent; respectable: They gave him a good Christian burial.
6.human; not brutal; humane: Such behavior isn’t Christian.
7. a person who believes in Jesus Christ; adherent of Christianity.
8. a person who exemplifies in his or her life the teachings of Christ: He died like a true Christian.
9. a member of any of certain Protestant churches, as the Disciples of Christ and the Plymouth Brethren.
10.the hero of Bunyan’s Pilgrim’s Progress.
11.a male given name.
Origin:
1250–1300; < L Chrīstiānus < Gk Chrīstiān?s, equiv. to Chrīst ( ?s ) Christ + -iānos < L -iānus -ian; r. ME, OE cristen < L
EDIT:
And I have to tell you based solely on the dictionary definition I see nothing that would prevent a Yogi from being a Christian or vise versa
thomas
I have one more question, are you arguing for Christians or Catholics?
The two are, to be entirely honest, the same but different. What a Protestant Christian might believe or feel is not necessarily what a Catholic Christian might believe or feel.
But then again this may all be sorted out in the definitions
.
Mathematically, if you could ask a square if it was a rectangle it would say yes I am a rectangle but mathematically if you ask a rectangle is it is square it will say no. A square need not discard anything to be a rectangle but a rectangle has to discard part of 2 sides to be a square.
PLUS
yogi
- a person who practices yoga.
- a person who is a master of yoga
Word Origin & History
yogi - “one who practices yoga,” 1619, from Hindi yogi , from Skt. yoga-
Origin: 1610–20; < Skt yogī, nom. sing. of yogin, deriv. of yoga yoga
yogini - female
Christian
1.of, pertaining to, or derived from Jesus Christ or His teachings: a Christian faith.
2. of, pertaining to, believing in, or belonging to the religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christ: Spain is a Christian country.
3. of or pertaining to Christians: many Christian deaths in the Crusades.
4.exhibiting a spirit proper to a follower of Jesus Christ; Christlike: She displayed true Christian charity.
5. decent; respectable: They gave him a good Christian burial.
6.human; not brutal; humane: Such behavior isn’t Christian.
7. a person who believes in Jesus Christ; adherent of Christianity.
8. a person who exemplifies in his or her life the teachings of Christ: He died like a true Christian.
9. a member of any of certain Protestant churches, as the Disciples of Christ and the Plymouth Brethren.
10.the hero of Bunyan’s Pilgrim’s Progress.
11.a male given name.
Origin:
1250–1300; < L Chrīstiānus < Gk Chrīstiān?s, equiv. to Chrīst ( ?s ) Christ + -iānos < L -iānus -ian; r. ME, OE cristen < L
OK guys, now put it together! Can’t wait to see it!
We are talking about Christian doctrine here. There is nothing about self-development in Christian doctrine, because there is no concept of Self(with a big S) The idea that one can self-actualize in the body itself is fundamentally opposed to Christian doctrine. The body is not a vehicle to the divine in Christian doctrine, it is impure, evil, an obstacle and it must be shunned for a life of poverty and service to Christ. Only unwaivering faith in Christ can save you and nothing else.
And this excludes Christians how? I certainly hope they are aware of self. I do believe Christians exercise, watch their diet, meditate via prayers and try to live a good balanced life.
Again we are talking about Christian doctine. Show me anywere in the bible where it says you should exercise, eat a balanced and healthy diet and meditate to control your mind and perceieve things for what they really are to achieive salvation. It is nowhere to be found. Instead what is found is the opposing doctrine that we must redeem ourselves through accepting Jesus as the way, life and truth, confess our sins and strive to a sinless life.
For most Christians simply accepting Jesus and believing in him is all that you need to do. There is nothing equivalent in Yoga.
If you look at the sutras and the eight fold path, many, if not all the ideas can be applied to most religions. Goal is the same. As far as values, who cares? If the goals are basically the same and the values are based on attaining those goals or goal, it matters not whether you are a christian, jew or muslim. The end goal is the same albeit different paths.
Again we are talking about Christian doctrine. Nope the goal is not the same.
The goal of Yoga is to achieive moksha and that is the ending of the otherwise endless cycle of rebirth by achieving union with the divine soul in this life. The goal of Christianity is to attain eternal life in the life hereafter by passing the final test of judgement day.
Yoga, whether it is embraced though Hinduism, christianity, etc can lead to living a better, happier life. Why would anyone deny that of another?
Again we are talking about Christian doctrine. I am not deying Christians the right to do Yoga. It is Christian doctrine which denies Christians the right to do Yoga. You are no longer Christian if you accept Yoga.
Yoga and Christianity are mutual opposites.
Two very informative, well articulated and and sincere presentations on Yoga and Christianity
Christianity and Yoga from a Christian perspective: http://christianspracticingyoga.com/wp/
Christianity and Yoga from a Hindu perspective:
http://www.hinduwisdom.info/Yoga_and_Hindu_Philosophy.htm#Hostility to Yoga in Church
I was surprised by how sincere, accurate and honest the Christian presentation above was. It certainly did a lot to show some of the similarities between Yoga and Christianity and helped me appreciate them. However, I did find that many times, some of the similarities were tenuously drawn. For example calling the Christian contemplative tradition in the monastic order “meditation” This is not meditation, anymore than reading a book is meditation. The aim of meditation is not fill your mind with thoughts by thinking intensely, but to empty the mind of thoughts through complete suspension of thought.
This presentation also makes a case which is being echoed here that Yoga is not denominational and is not exclusive to any particular religion: Hinduism, Buddhism or Jainism. It does not prescribe faith in any particular deity. It is a spiritual program for self-development for living a fuller life and cultivating our highest potentials, and is based on scientific observation. Therefore it is measurable, predictable and neutral.
There is no dispute at all that Yoga is a vigorous science and it is a very powerful system of mind-body training, with tremendous benefits, but the point that it is not Hindu is very contentious and hinges on what the definition of Hinduism is. It is an open and shut case that Yoga is not Hinduism, if Hinduism is defined as the worship of Indian deities like Shiva, Rama, Ganesha, Durga, Kali, Hanuman etc. However, this rather than being a definition of Hinduism, is a misconception and stereotype about Hinduism held by ignorant people, and is not what is officially recognised to be Hinduism. The official definition of Hinduism recognises Hinduism as non-denominational, non-prophetic(i.e., no prophets or founders) and non-dogmatic(no fixed deities, rituals, moral codes and clergy).
In fact what is recognised to be Hinduism is based on general philosophies and practices that all denominations within Hinduism share. They are as enumerated before
- The doctrine of Self and Self-realization through Yoga
- The doctrine of the law of karma and reincarnation
- The doctrine of law of dharma
- the doctrine of the complex cosmology and anatomy of the universe and body
- The doctrine of the student-teacher tradition
There is no single Hinduism denomination that does not share the above 5. So these 5 general doctrines are what define Hinduism. You know you are talking to a Hindu if they subscribe to these doctrines. But these are also the doctrines that a Yogi subscribes too. In other words a Hindu and a Yogi are equivalent terms and refer to exactly the same philosophy and practice.
Therefore can a Christian be a Yogi? No more than a square can be a circle. Rather than debating this point to death, we simply should accept Christianity does not teach Yoga philosophy and practice. It simply is not an enlightened enough tradition as Yoga is and it fails to satisfy the spiritual hunger of humans. This is why it is been strongly rejected in the past century and why Hinduism via the pseudonom of Yoga is replacing it. Humanity is returning back to its real natural religious roots: Hinduism.
Christianity, Judasim and Islam and even Buddhisms are corruptions of the natural religion of Hinduism. They all evolved out of Hinduism during the descent phase of Kali yuga, and are all now returning to Hinduism during the ascent phase towards Satya yuga. There is no question about it, we are all becoming Hindu - slowly but surely.
SD,
Your thinking is much too literal, thereby very narrow in scope. Call me new age, call me whatever you like. I know that how I view all of this, more inclusive and open, makes me a much happier person. I like to see the good and how we can all join together toward a mutual goal. I chose not see how different we are as that would pigeon-hole me as intolerant. I accept your views as your own. They are not the definitive answer to the OP question. They are your views. And that is OK. At some point you will open your eyes to see the beauty and truth that you have missed. I have a sense that time will come soon for you. Embrace it.
[QUOTE=lotusgirl;41399]SD,
Your thinking is much too literal, thereby very narrow in scope. Call me new age, call me whatever you like. I know that how I view all of this, more inclusive and open, makes me a much happier person. I like to see the good and how we can all join together toward a mutual goal. I chose not see how different we are as that would pigeon-hole me as intolerant. I accept your views as your own. They are not the definitive answer to the OP question. They are your views. And that is OK. At some point you will open your eyes to see the beauty and truth that you have missed. I have a sense that time will come soon for you. Embrace it.[/QUOTE]
It is great to see similarities, but it is also great to see differences. I think you only look at similarities. Thereby your scope is vague, foggy, simplistic and unintentionally misleading.
Yes, there are similarities between Yoga and Christianity(which the Christians practicing Yoga website shows very well) but there are also very fundamental differences. We cannot just ignore those differences. They are not going to go away by ignoring them. As long as they are there, people like me, Thomas and scholars will bring them up.
Perhaps, the best advice I can give you is to learn to accept differences as well. Critical thinking is a virtue, not a curse.
If you look at differences as a way to find commonality, then yes I would agree.
Acceptance and embracement is what is needed. When we only point out differences it does nothing to promote this and only divides. Accept the differences and find a way to coexist. Imagine Flex showing off his tee-shirt here for effect.
I liken it to racial tension. When we only concentrate on the differences, that is all we see. We see US and THEM. We don’t see humans. When we find commonality and can celebrate the differences (as in unique) we can then live peacefully and together enjoying the common bond. Call it simplistic, that’s fine. It works for me.