It is really not a question. Religion and Yoga are mutually exclusive. ‘Religion divides, Yoga unites’. No concepts like reincarnation should become stumbling blocks. Self-experience is the only authority in Yoga. There is no room for any belief. So, its upto you, your practice, your transformation, your experience.
Suhas Tambe,
I am afraid this constant mantra of Yoga not being a religion is getting tired and it simply does not fit reality. How can you say Yoga is not a religion when the goal of Yoga is to connect to the supreme soul(aka god) it involves moral training(yama and niyama) and to adhere to a religious lifestyle where one meditates regularly and preferably eats a vegetarian diet. It involves accepting all kinds of doctrines such as the existence of the soul, god, prana, kundalini, koshas, lokas, karma, reincarnation. It involves reading scriptures such as the Yogasutras, Bhagvad Gita, Upanishads, Shiva Samhita.
It is absolutely clear Yoga is a religion - the Hindu religion. And to say it is not a religion is basically being disingenious to other religions. If you say to a Christian, “You can do Yoga, because Yoga is not a religion” Sooner or later the Christian will be exposed to reincarnation, chanting mantras such as OM, doing meditation, using Sanskrit, Hindu doctrines and Hindu scriptures. Any discerning Christian will then know that they have been deceived into accepting another religion.
It is a big deception to say Yoga is not a religion. It clearly is.
Dear Surya Deva,
In another thread, you have said
“I sometimes see a reflection of myself in Swami Vivekananda. Atheist, scientific, demanding proof for all assertions and gradually moving into spirituality”
Let us wait for your spiritual progress. This conflict ‘Yoga a religion?’ will get resolved only in your own self. That is the Yoga path.
This is a weasel response Suhas. I do not have to wait to get some kind of enlightenment in order to understand whether Yoga is a religion or not. It can be ascertained whether Yoga is a religion or not from the characteristics of Yoga and whether it meets the characteristics of a religion.
Let us ask the following questions
Does Yoga involve any kind of doctrine which determines what is moral? Yes
Does Yoga involve a belief in deity, supreme being or god? Yes
Does Yoga involve any kind of scriptures? Yes
Does Yoga have holy men and women? Yes
Does Yoga have doctrines which teach about supernatural entites? Yes
Does Yoga define a purpose of life? Yes
Does Yoga prescribe methods or rituals for spiritual purposes? Yes
Does Yoga prescribe lifestyles that one must adhere to? Yes
Clearly then Yoga is a religion.
Can a Christian be a yogi?
I suppose it really depends upon how we define Christianity.
I have heard of people who don’t believe in Christ and call themselves Christians. I have heard on this board of people who instead of believing that Christ came to save the soul from Hell, that we are reborn over and over until we get it right. I have heard of people who call themselves Christians, but who make up their own rules regarding sexual morality, and are totally fine with fornication, homosexual unions, and adultery.
From my perspective, I don’t think that yoga in its entirety can be practiced by Christians, though I’m not 100% certain about that yet. I am clear that a Christian can do the physical exercises, though he must proceed with caution.
But the way to fix this is to simply say that Yoga IS Chrisianity.
Then EVERYONE who practices yoga is a Christian.
9 Ha Thomas…that would fix it for a Christian indeed!)
Hi Everyone it was my intention to put Can a Christian be a Hindu, I put the smiley because I dont understand how anyone can say it isn’t and the smiley was to not want to offend anyone.
But I am confused by this issue…By Surya and Suhas…and then I have my own limited opinion based on my limited understanding of the facts I have READ, ABOUT YOGA and then theres the thing things I have personally noted that are nothing to do with reading.
I did notice that no one offered a response to my point I made about how the inner Guru appears to appear in physical (in that you can see him) form…Despite my knowledge of Christianity at my schooling and at Church, when I practiced for a long time with the Ajna Chakra, EVENTUALLY, I was presented with a Buddha, in form, a bald Buddha in monks attire in Lotus position! BUT I was told recently by a Chinese Buddhist, his account was a Chinese, pony tailed Buddha, in same Lotus position and monks attire…(he told me without me telling him anything)
So I think this matters to this discussion and as I’ve said…no one seems to want to address it.
My point being that the inner Guru seems to present himself in a format from your lineage, therefore maybe a Christian will have a more Christian experience if their lineage is wholly protestant or Catholic etc etc.
Any offers?
Sd,
Every single response from you is contentious. I look at your opening sentence and if it is contentious in nature, I just skip right over it. I would advise others to do so. I know I’ve been much happier. It would serve you well to listen to those like Suhas who have an open mind.
Back to the non-religious forums for me!
Calling Suhas a Weasel Surya is rude…Suhas [B]trys [/B]to be considerate of all of us, even yourself Surya. If thats being a Weasel then so
am I. Dont be mean in words its a debate
[QUOTE=thomas;40909]I’ve heard some call Jesus a yogi.
[/QUOTE]
I have even read a book by Yogananda: Yoga of Jesus.
Can you outline what it says Oak333
[QUOTE=kareng;41042]Calling Suhas a Weasel Surya is rude…Suhas [B]trys [/B]to be considerate of all of us, even yourself Surya. If thats being a Weasel then so
am I. Dont be mean in words its a debate[/QUOTE]
He didn’t call him a weasel. He said it was a “weasel response,” meaning he felt he was avoiding the issue or weasling out of it.
I’m beginning to lean in the direction of agreeing with SD about yoga and religion, though I disagree that parts cannot be taken out, specifially the asanas, and be religion neutral.
Thomas isn’t that the same…the words were written by him.
Mind you I know they are adults and I perhaps am being a little protective…you’ll fnd me do that with anyone including Surya when I see something a little strong. Perhaps I should mind my own business, I will try but cant promise.
As I said, I would like to understand why Surya and Suhas are disagreeing, I have always thought from reading that Yoga is Hindu in origins and therefore is Hindu.
But I dont discount what Suhas is saying so I want it explained if possible?
It is absolutely clear Yoga is a religion - the Hindu religion. And to say it is not a religion is basically being disingenious to other religions. If you say to a Christian, “You can do Yoga, because Yoga is not a religion” Sooner or later the Christian will be exposed to reincarnation, chanting mantras such as OM, doing meditation, using Sanskrit, Hindu doctrines and Hindu scriptures. Any discerning Christian will then know that they have been deceived into accepting another religion.
There’s a lot of truth in this, and much of this has been my experience.
But will it stop you doing yoga?
Lg, I am afraid one cannot go through life avoiding all contentious issues. I think you are expecting people to simply accept “Yoga is not a religion” without questioning it, and I am sorry it is obvious that some people find this very contentious.
Kareng, I did not call Suhas a weasel. I said the response Suhas gave was a “weasel response” It is a criticism used sometimes when somebody tries to weasel out a situation or from justifying their viewpoint. It is similar, kind of, to a response a religious person would give to a statement they cannot defend, like “I will pray for you” On Wikipedia, there is a tag you can put next to words that sound too weak, “weasel words”
It is obvious that the debate on whether Yoga is a religion and whether people from non-Hindu religious backgrounds can practice all of Yoga is a serious debate and controversial, so responses like that of Suhas’s given here do nothing towards resolving this debate, they just end up denying the debate exists at all.
Okay Surya I get your point. And okay you didn’t call him a weasel.
The thing is for me, by stating the point, puts people in a position where they have to then question whether they should be practicing yoga at all. … People, as we can see, defend their beliefs, their religion, they have a conscience about it all and this may well stop them. Thats my concern, I suppose. … Ive just asked Thomas that question as you can see, he hasn’t got back to me on it because I know its a very tough question, if hes been seeing the benefits of practice etc but now is torn between his Christian devotion and the Yoga Hindu debate…I think I know what you will say…but let me see if Im right
Now, if you want my personal view on this matter. I think a Christian should do Yoga, because it is not debatable that Yoga is very good for improving ones health. This is the scientific consensus on Yoga based on decades of scientific studies. However, they should not start drawing arbitrary distinctions that they are only going to do asanas and not pranayama and meditation, because while asanas have obviously immense benefit for ones physical health in keeping the body supple, flexible, toned and healthy, the latter has immense benefit for ones mental health in keeping the mind focussed, patient, tolerant, positive and strong. This too is backed up by the scientific consensus and decades of scientific studies.
A Christian should therefore have no problem doing all of Yoga and indeed be a Yogi, as clearly the benefits of Yoga and what it does for you are facts. A Christian has no choice but to accept facts. Just as he must accept the heliocentric model, evolution, big bang, atoms and other facts of science. Like he has with science, he must also learn to accomodate Yoga with their beliefs.
There is no compulsion in Yoga for the yogi to accept any doctrine which is not their own experience and reason. Most gurus will not ask you to accept atman, brahman, reincarnation, kundalini, prana and chakras. However, they will certainly teach these things, because they are the theory Yoga is based on. The Christian will have to simply take what they want and reject what they don’t want, but they cannot expect Yoga to be taught without them. Therefore the Christian is going to have to accomodate Yoga and not the other way around.
Yogiadam, an atheist, is already doing this. He takes what fits his own experience and reason and rejects what doesn’t. One of the forms of Yoga he is practicing, Satyananda Yoga, is one of the most serious and religious forms of Yoga. Yet he survives. So there is no reason a Christian cannot do the same.
Yoga itself will not contradict a Christians belief. However, the spiritual results it can produce, will contradict their beliefs. As I have said many times before as soon as ones practice is mature they will experience things like out of body experiences, astral projections, psychic phenomenonon, kundalini awakenings, past life memory recall, mystical experiences. As and when this take places, the Christian will be forced to accept many of the doctrines of Hinduism, because they will not be to deny their own experience. Eventually they will completely accept Hinduism.
A real yoga guru will never force a Christian to chant mantras they are uncomfortable with, or read scriptures that are outside their religion, or pray to deities that they do not believe in or meditate on something against their faith. Rather they will advise the Christian to chant mantras that are either secular(peace, love, freedom etc) Read their own bible and Christian scripptures, and pray to their own deity and meditate on what is in their own faith. This is because Yoga is process-specific, not object-specific. You can assume as your object anything that will aid your practice.
A Hindu will obviously get more out of Yoga than a Christian. As they can chant mantras in the language of Sanskrit, which was designed especially for mantras and the sounds have very powerful effects on the psyche. They have a much wider selection of scriptures to read which are all yoga-specific(Gita, Yogasutras, Vedas, Upanishads, tantras) And they have dozens of colourful deities to choose from, each one with a vast tradition of symbols, stories, artwork and temples. However, none of this is mandatory to be a yogi. It is simply very helpful. As Yoga is a Hindu tradition, the Christian should not be surprised to be exposed to Hindu imagery. Again, it is their choice on how much they want to partake of the Hindu imagery.
Fortunately, there are many liberal Christians like Pandara who have no problem in partaking in the Hindu imagery. They simply add it to their Chrisitian imagery and adapt it.
I know of many pastors who have incorporated Hindu imagery into their preachings. It is a sign of maturity to be able to partake of other religions. I myself partake of Christian imagery in that I sing gospel, recite the lords prayer and cite from biblical scripture. I also partake of Islamic imagery. Native American. Pagan.
The thing is for me, by stating the point, puts people in a position where they have to then question whether they should be practicing yoga at all
This is a good thing. You should question everything you say and do. Yoga is not exempt from questioning. Nothing is exempt from questioning.
People like Suhas and lg, and I say this respectfully, are insecure about some of the truths about Yoga and want to hide these truths from others because they are afraid that otherwise they would not respect or do Yoga. So they perpetuate propoganda like “Yoga is not a religion”, “Yoga is not Hinduism” to get people on board. It works at times with some Christians who uncritically accept this propoganda and before they know it they are swalloing a lot of Hindu doctrines hook, line and sinker, without realising it. The more discerning Christians, like Thomas, however can clearly see the propoganda for what it is - propoganda. People like myself who challenge this propoganda are automatically demonized and patronized, with a zeal, that would give most religionists a run for their money.
Surya says Yoga itself will not contradict a Christians belief. However, the spiritual results it can produce, will contradict their beliefs. As I have said many times before as soon as ones practice is mature they will experience things like out of body experiences, astral projections, psychic phenomenonon, kundalini awakenings, past life memory recall, mystical experiences. As and when this take places, the Christian will be forced to accept many of the doctrines of Hinduism, because they will not be to deny their own experience. Eventually they will completely accept Hinduism.
Answer…From the above, this is the most difficult aspect for a Christian to encounter in Yoga practice. I haven’t any answers as to how they tackle this, when it happens, and it will happen to them. It will certainly bring their faith in what they believe, seriously into question.
So will America become Hindu by the end of the century, yes, if the masses practice yoga to the levels that will produce the above results, it has to…(another thread, I know)
Surya Says…This is because Yoga is process-specific, not object-specific. You can assume as your object anything that will aid your practice.
Answer …At least this part is acceptable for any faith.
The bible makes references to many of the parts in the quote at top of this post as being unacceptable.
I wonder why? What is the reason behind it? I know they must have known about it to damm it
There are many high order Christians (and others of course) who have experienced many deep insights, satisfying them to a degree that a Hindu might in their practice…so if the process of Hindu Yoga is the right path, what is it the other faiths achieve in their process, i mean, does it meet the same ends with the ultimate union of divine experience or what ever is the term used broadly speaking…(if you get me)
And if so then it cant matter what religeon you belong to. And there must be another factor at play that has nothing to do with any religious practice.
Please look at my post that no one has answered #46 because it applies to this line of thinking.
[QUOTE=kareng;41051]But will it stop you doing yoga?[/QUOTE]
No, not yet.
I understand enough now to pick and choose what I want, and so far don’t see a problem with that.
But it was understandibly confusing when I kept hearing yoga was not a religion, while the same people who said that talked about god, reincarnation, OMs, etc.