Can a Christian be a Yogi?

Spirituality Religion
#61

There is no compulsion in Yoga for the yogi to accept any doctrine which is not their own experience and reason. Most gurus will not ask you to accept atman, brahman, reincarnation, kundalini, prana and chakras. However, they will certainly teach these things, because they are the theory Yoga is based on. The Christian will have to simply take what they want and reject what they don’t want, but they cannot expect Yoga to be taught without them. Therefore the Christian is going to have to accomodate Yoga and not the other way around.

What if a Christian takes out what he wants, rejects certain concepts, and then himself becomes a teacher, and teaches in a way to accomodate other Christians and those who would reject those concepts?

Yoga itself will not contradict a Christians belief. However, the spiritual results it can produce, will contradict their beliefs. As I have said many times before as soon as ones practice is mature they will experience things like out of body experiences, astral projections, psychic phenomenonon, kundalini awakenings, past life memory recall, mystical experiences. As and when this take places, the Christian will be forced to accept many of the doctrines of Hinduism, because they will not be to deny their own experience. Eventually they will completely accept Hinduism.

So you’re saying the Christian can do yoga and reject Hindusim, but after they practice it for awhile, they’re going to end up accepting it?

I disagree.

And I don’t see why there could not be a practice which focuses on the asanas. I have found that I have been doing some asanas most of my life without realizing it. I have been doing certain postures for years, without knowing that some of them were yoga postures.

Besides that, some teacher blend other disciplines into their classes, and it is not pure yoga.

Fortunately, there are many liberal Christians like Pandara who have no problem in partaking in the Hindu imagery. They simply add it to their Chrisitian imagery and adapt it.
I know of many pastors who have incorporated Hindu imagery into their preachings. It is a sign of maturity to be able to partake of other religions. I myself partake of Christian imagery in that I sing gospel, recite the lords prayer and cite from biblical scripture. I also partake of Islamic imagery. Native American. Pagan.

I could appreciate imagery and truths in Hinduism, but if I adopt any Hindu doctrine which is contrary to Christianity, I am no longer practicing Christianity.

I could even see reincarnation as a metaphor, as in my own life, I have had many “lives”–many times I regrouped and started over. But to believe in reincarnation of my own soul would be a huge denial of my Christian faith.

#62

I’m waiting for Suryas response but in answer to a part of what you have put Thomas

Suyas Quote from thomas…Yoga itself will not contradict a Christians belief. However, the spiritual results it can produce, will contradict their beliefs. As I have said many times before as soon as ones practice is mature they will experience things like out of body experiences, astral projections, psychic phenomenonon, kundalini awakenings, past life memory recall, mystical experiences. As and when this take places, the Christian will be forced to accept many of the doctrines of Hinduism, because they will not be to deny their own experience. Eventually they will completely accept Hinduism.

Karens reply to thomas…but how will you deal with the above phenomena, it goes against Christianity for the most part

#63

I don’t believe any of that will happen.

#64

Ahh I see, well it will Thomas
Its totally unavoidable, in time, and the surprise you get when you get into it is why Surya has put it .
This reminds me of me…the difference was I wasn’t told about it.
I come from a Christian background in personal practice of it (wasnt made to in any way) and got a huge surprise in those areas, so I have no doubt in them. You will come across them

I wouldn’t lie or exaggerate this to you, its from the heart.

#65

Read my last reply to Surya

#66

What if a Christian takes out what he wants, rejects certain concepts, and then himself becomes a teacher, and teaches in a way to accomodate other Christians and those who would reject those concepts?

This has already been done with the practice of Christian Yoga. It also been done with secular practices of Yoga such as Power Yoga. However, these are not really Yoga, they are rather what yoga guru Iyengar calls un-yoga. They borrow(or steal) some limbs of Yoga and combine it with other things. They should not be rightfuly called Yoga. And a teacher of these practices should not be called a Yoga teacher.

Real Yoga is a full mind-body technology in order to integrate mind with body. It includes both physical and mental training in order to produce holistically developed people. It is a science in that it is based on an actual empirical tradition with thousands of years of accumulated data and also has its own theory. In order to be a teacher of real Yoga you yourself must achieive full mind-body integration. Then you achieive the qualification of “Swami” Then you can teach. If you achieive the title of “Paramhansa” then you are a saint. If you achieive the title of “Rishi/Maharishi” then you are fully enlightened. If are lucky enough to find a Rishi/Maharishi who accepts you as their student, then you are the most fortunate soul in the world.

Fake Yoga teachers, which pretty much fill the Yoga industry today are basically people who have taken courses in Yoga and then started teaching Yoga to earn a living, charging ridiculous fees for their services. I stay away from such fake yoga teachers, which is why I have not joined many Yoga classes and been reluctant to attend them. I will learn real Yoga from real qualified people soon when I go to India.

#67

Hi Surya I was hoping you would reply to the last paragraph in #59 post and in turn also #46 post. Its late and I cant stay up too much longer, tomorrow will do if not now. Thanks
Surya

#68

[QUOTE=FlexPenguin;40891]Well, can he/she?[/QUOTE]

Well, I thought this was clearly answered by InnerAthlete in the thread
"Is Yoga Hinduism" post # 446. I “quote a quote”:

Osho: Yoga is a pure mathematics of the inner being. So a Mohammedan can be a yogi. a Christian can be a yogi, a Jaina, a Buddhist can be a yogi.

I would rather have a close look at that post of InnerAthlete.

#69

So you’re saying the Christian can do yoga and reject Hindusim, but after they practice it for awhile, they’re going to end up accepting it?

Yep, but not out of faith, but because their own experience will validate it. You see Yoga like any other science makes predictions. If you do x, then y will happen. If you read the Yogasutras it gives you a full description of what will happen as you maintain a full Yoga practice. In modern consciousnesss studies, a subset of transpersonal psychology, the same predictions are made as to what is going to happen at different points in your meditation. These can in turn be measured quantitatively using MRI scans and EEG to measure brain wave states and neural activity.

Another great researcher is Robert Monroe who has founded the Monroe institute and pioneered hemi-synch technology for brain entrainment. He has developed the focus-level scheme which shows what happens at different focus levels. Focus 10 is mind awake/body asleep; Focus 15 is loss of time and space; Focus 20 is the diassociation of consciousness from body. Focus 20+ is astral projections.

There is plenty of peer-reviewed data on the practice of full Yoga to have a scientific concensus as what exactly will happen as your practice develops and becomes mature.

In Psychology, Kundalini awakening that takes place if you engage in Yoga or a similar spiritual practice, is now recognised as a formal condition under the DSM as the “Kundalini Syndrome/spiritual emergency” The symptoms described are similar to as described in Yoga:

Lee Sannella was able to group symptoms into categories, which Kason picked up with some modification. For Sannella, the indications consist of motor phenomena – auto-movement, unusual breathing, and paralysis; sensory phenomena – tickling, sensations of hot and cold, inner lights or visions, and inner sounds; interpretive phenomena – emotions, distortions of thought, detachment, disassociation, and a sense of oneness; and non-physiological phenomena – out-of-body experiences and psychic perceptions.[37] Other symptoms include:

Researchers affiliated with the fields of transpersonal psychology and near-death studies (see references below) have suggested some common criteria that describe kundalini problems, of which the most prominent feature is a feeling of energy or heat rushing up the spine[11][38].

A few theorists within the transpersonal field, such as Greyson[16], refers to this symptomatology as the “Physio-Kundalini syndrome”, while other Western academics use the description Kundalini-experience/awakening[39][40]. The process is not always sudden and dramatic, it can also start slowly and increase gradually in activity over time[41]. If the accompanying symptoms unfold in an intense manner that destabilizes the person, then the situation is usually interpreted as a “spiritual emergency”[42].

(Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kundalini_syndrome#Listing_in_DSM-IV)

Finally, reincarnation has also become a serious subject of empirical study in investigative science, one of the pioneers in this field being Ian Stevenson, the author of “20 cases suggestive of reincarnation” has done cross-cultural studies in reincarnation with thousands of subjects and meticulously recorded the empirical data, recording past life memories and studying birthmarks and birth defects and their correspodence to past life. Since, there have been many researchers into reincarnation, producing highly compelling scientific evidence for reincarnation.

There is no dearth of scientific evidence validating everything Yoga says. This will become more or less fact in a few decades and the Christian again is going to have to reconcile science with their faith. However, you yourself will get direct validation by simply maintaining your practice. You can try your own experiment and follow a full Yoga training program for a year and see the results for yourself.

To be honest I think it would be rather ignorant to dismiss such huge body of peer reviewed data as well as the countless experiences of ordinary people like myself, Kareng, Core, Pandra who have experienced many of these for ourselves.

#70

[QUOTE=kareng;41064]Ahh I see, well it will Thomas
Its totally unavoidable, in time, and the surprise you get when you get into it is why Surya has put it .
This reminds me of me…the difference was I wasn’t told about it.
I come from a Christian background in personal practice of it (wasnt made to in any way) and got a huge surprise in those areas, so I have no doubt in them. You will come across them

I wouldn’t lie or exaggerate this to you, its from the heart.[/QUOTE]

I still don’t believe it will happen.

And if anything like that did happen, I would probably ask my priest about having an exorcist visit me.

I don’t think such things are good or of God, not that I’m quetioning the motives of those who do. I believe they believe in good faith.

I like the idea of “power yoga” or “unyoga.”

I just want to be supple and fit. I’ve got the rest covered at Mass and the other sacraments, and with all the other spiritual tools in my Church that I care to use.

What I am doing is not “real yoga” and I’m ok with that. I like the lunges, the twists, the down dogs, and especailly am having fun with headstands.

#71

The full-blown Hinduism will come Thomas. Just be patient.

But seriously, i think you start off in yoga just doing a couple of physical exercises,called posturing,only kidding, and then you realise there’s a bit more to it than that. The tip of an ice-berg.It is a complete science. I remember reading the gita when i practiced asana in my first year of yoga and i had no idea how you integrated all these 4 principal yogas together.I gots bits & peices or part insights.But i was well aware after my first asana class that there HAD to be something else going on, eenergetically to begin with and then mentally, and then spiritually- that somehow you were becoming a cleaner or purer & therfore better person.Not that there wer’nt obstacles or that i di’nt know how to weild the practice because i did’nt because i lacked clearer understanding. Course i’m still learning;learning in life (in everything, not just the science of yoga) never stops. The moment you say you’ve grasped it all is the moment you probably have stopped.

To say asana is just physical is not only missing something, i.e it’s not true but it’s suggesting you’re practising something more like calisthenics.It is in part moving beyond words & ideas, belief and dogma,organisations, institituions and ideology to the truth of your own personal experience.

I don’t think my beleiefs about society or the nature of reality have ever stayed still; they’ve always been challenged, with changing experiences.That is a good thing. I think life sometimes can seem like it has a funny way of showing you what you need.I don’t think you can coast along without being challeneged ins some way or on some level or not forever and remain happy.What does happines mean? How can i get it?Well i bit of this & a bit of that That is yoga.lol

Call it religion.This is just a word,a defintion. It is whatever it is to YOU. Yoga needs you.Why not join up today.Course i’m kidding Thomas.TAaake whatever you’re ready for but prepared to be challenged or changed, hopefully for the better certainly philosophically, intellectually or mystically and on the level of conciousness.

Surya Deva,

Fascinating link.I cannot relate to the traumatic or near death experience type of awakening related in the first part of that wiki article but the second half backed up by folk like Gopi Kirshna i can relate to and holds a lot of truth.

It suggests ‘gentle program of breathing, meditation & yoga’ backed with the guidance or experience of a competent teacher is advised for anyone navigating their ways out of kundalini difficulties.What they don’t tell you are such peoaple could be hard to find or be quick to offer the commitment, such “victims” may not quite understand what has happened to them or indeed how to remedy it.There appears to be a great amount of lack of information and proper understanding about this phenomenon and how if not managed right you can easily run into diffculties plus not know how to navigate out of it.

I’m still reading that article.

#72

To be honest I think it would be rather ignorant to dismiss such huge body of peer reviewed data as well as the countless experiences of ordinary people like myself, Kareng, Core, Pandra who have experienced many of these for ourselves.

And I believe you’re spiritually starved by not receiving the Sacraments of Baptism, Confession, Confirmation, and the Holy Eucharist.

But we each have to do what we have to do and what seems best.

I’m not buying what you’re selling, though I do respect your dedication to your faith.

#73

Call it religion.This is just a word,a defintion. It is whatever it is to YOU. Yoga needs you.Why not join up today.

I’m taking and using what I feel comfortable with.

I appreciate and am grateful for the part I use and that I feel benefits me greatly.

I respectfully reject the rest because in a way it is “redundant” and in some cases contradictory to the spiritual quest I have chosen in the Catholic Church.

I understand the holistic nature of yoga, and agree with the principle, but not with all the techniques, and once again, the faith I have choses is entirely holistic, except it is silent about exercise and diet, and that is up to the choice of the individual. I could take an entire diet from another religion if I like, and could take an entire exercise regimen from another religion or belief system if I like.

I realize the asanas are meant to be integrated into the whole, and understand that concept, but if I am mindful of that, and mindful of what the whole is meant to accomplish, and if I feel the whole is best served by my current faith, then I can take what I see is good in yoga or another belief system and use it as I see fit, and I can benefit, while intending no disrespect to the religion from which I borrowed (or stole) the techniques.

The Rosary is an entirely Catholic prayer, but is an optional prayer. Some pray it as a private devotion, others do not. If someone outside of Catholicism discovered the prayer and found it peaceful or found some meaning to praying it, they would not be practicing Catholicim, and I would encourage them to embrace the entirety and not just that small part, but if they felt they had the other bases covered already, then fine, they could pray the Rosary for whatever benefit they get, and they would only receive praise form Catholics for doing it (thought they would be incorrect to say they are practicing Catholicism).

So I think it’s ok to take a tiny slice out of yoga and use it for the benefit of my health.

But if my Church ever made a definitive statement that Catholics may not practice yoga, even just the asanas, then I would abandon it. But I doubt such a thing will happen.

#74

Here we see several valid arguments and quite expansive elaboration replete with innumerable references, quotations and examples. Most of it is interesting stuff, product of a very intelligent mind.

Yoga of Yoga-Sutra proposes a model of human thinking process that has brain, manas and buddhi as representative thinking instruments of the three enveloped bodies – physical, astral and causal. They process the incoming sense data into thoughts that create mind modifications. Thus mind becomes what the thoughts are for the time being, blinding the person from knowing the real truth.

Sage Patanjali calls even ‘valid knowledge’ a mind modification that too is required to be set aside for knowing the ultimate truth. He argues that though valid, it is still derived knowledge that uses only the known concepts for understanding the unknown. The mind is of no help because instead of providing the first-hand knowledge it becomes indulgent and tries to churn the data into knowledge. A lot of churning and ample use of buddhi makes the knowledge very impressive, but short of exact.

Exact knowledge arrives from direct perception, unaided by mind or the thinking instruments. Direct perception is possible only when the overdrive of buddhi is restrained, emotional pangs of manas are subdued and articulation of brain is suspended.

Yoga is a spiritual path and nothing can be proven or demolished by arguments. Truth is only to be experienced that until enlightenment, remains relative. The beholder of such self-realized relative truth would never feel an urge to transplant that truth in others which would amount to [I]hinsa[/I] of a very subtle kind. Only through this self-realized discovery comes the wisdom that views are different from truth, especially on a path where the ultimate truth is sought.

If Yoga itself promises a unity with the omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent consciousness, who are we to limit it by labeling or defining narrowly just to satiate the needs of our thinking instruments? It is lot more redeeming to guide and help the co-travelers in solving mundane issues if one knows the answers. In Yoga, when natural discriminating tendency of “I” matures into a discerning ability, one witnesses this consciousness present within as well as in each other person or an object. That connectedness brings forth a Yoga with undivided humanity and dissolves many questions, apparent contradictions and impossible dilemmas. For resolving more profound issues, it is prudent to wait till then.

#75

From the Christian perspective, if the purpose of yoga was to bring someone into union with the Devine, then yoga at best is a foreshadowing or an approximation of what was accomplished with the incarnation of Christ.

Yoga can now be left behind for what is bigger and better and free of error.

But many will never know that or believe that, so they will do what they feel is best, but the Christian must not depart from the illuminated path he’s been given.

#76

And I believe you’re spiritually starved by not receiving the Sacraments of Baptism, Confession, Confirmation, and the Holy Eucharist.

I have already told you before. There is what you believe and then there is facts.

You are a man of faith. I am a man of science and reason. Are they both equivalent? No, science and reason is a reliable and valid means to getting real knowledge which can be verified. Faith is not.

You do not know anything for sure about what you believe, you simply believe it, because you choose to believe it. This is, I am sorry to say, a sign of an immature soul. On the contraty, Core shows the sign of a mature soul, in that he does not believe in any fixed thing, but allows his understanding to grow as he learns more. You are not letting your understanding grow. You are limiting your own growth. But I will not hold this against you, because it is obvious you are still a growing soul. However, as Core said, even doing a little of the asanas is better than nothing.

#77

There is the concept in yoga of ishta which is having something which represents divinity to you. This could be mental or physical image , Jesus or anything else you care for.It’s not so much the image but what it represents -truth, love, courage,high values etc. This might sound a bit radical to some but might be helpful on a conceptual level.

A number of folk find that whatever faith they have deepens.I think there might be a hint in what Surya Deva said when he said Hinduism is’nt a religion, more of a science of laws & principles.

#78

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;41080]I have already told you before. There is what you believe and then there is facts.

You are a man of faith. I am a man of science and reason. Are they both equivalent? No, science and reason is a reliable and valid means to getting real knowledge which can be verified. Faith is not.

You do not know anything for sure about what you believe, you simply believe it, because you choose to believe it. This is, I am sorry to say, a sign of an immature soul. On the contraty, Core shows the sign of a mature soul, in that he does not believe in any fixed thing, but allows his understanding to grow as he learns more. You are not letting your understanding grow. You are limiting your own growth. But I will not hold this against you, because it is obvious you are still a growing soul. However, as Core said, even doing a little of the asanas is better than nothing.[/QUOTE]

What if the New Testament can be proven to be a valid historical document?

What if there is credible evidence that Jesus lived, performed miracles, died and rose from the dead?

These things are not just accepted on blind faith.

And if there is credible evidence, then the Church is not just a house of cards built on a fable, but is the realization of Jesus’ words and deeds.

#79

Yoga is a spiritual path and nothing can be proven or demolished by arguments. Truth is only to be experienced that until enlightenment, remains relative. The beholder of such self-realized relative truth would never feel an urge to transplant that truth in others which would amount to [I]hinsa[/I] of a very subtle kind. Only through this self-realized discovery comes the wisdom that views are different from truth, especially on a path where the ultimate truth is sought.

I think this notion that self-realised men and women do not argue or use reason is a modern day myth that has been perpetuated by new-age authors, including modern Hindu gurus. It is well known, if anybody looks at the history of Hinduism, that argument has always been a part of that tradition. I have not read a single Hindu scripture that does not contain some argument. The Upanishads contain arguments, the Gita contains arguments, the Brahma Sutra contains arguments, the Yoga Vasistha contains arguments, the Atma Bodha contains arguments.

In fact it is probably safe to say Hinduism is the most argumentative tradition on the planet. The vicious debates that took place within Hinduism between teachers and students, different samapradayas would have given you pause indeed. It was a relentless culture of debate. Yet, thanks to this relentless culture of debate, there were many philosophical, intellectual and material developments in India. As any kind of evolution requires a dialectic of opposing forces, there would be no growth or evolution without debate between opposing positions.

In fact as soon as you state something you cannot help but not engage in debate, because you have used language. You have made assertions and those assertions demand proof. Like you just did now in your post:

Yoga is a spiritual path and nothing can be proven or demolished by arguments

Is Yoga a spiritual path? What do you mean by spiritual path? Can nothing be proven or demolished by arguments? Okay, then is the statement that John is not at home therefore John is elsewhere true or false?

The beholder of such self-realized relative truth would never feel an urge to transplant that truth in others which would amount to [I]hinsa[/I] of a very subtle kind

This is pretty much what I am challenging in this post. How do you know that a self-realised person would not challenge anothers truth? Is Krishna self-realised? If he is, then why is he challenging Arjuna’s truth? Is Sankarcharya self-realised? If he is, then why is he challenging Buddhism, Jainism, Samkhya, Yoga?

You have to be very careful what you say when you use language. The critical reader can catch you out very easily. This is why be clear with your language, make sure your points are supported and demonstrated with reason and examples. If you cannot do this, then it is better not to say anything at all.

#80

There is no proof that the NT is a valid historical document. Most theologians believe the NT is full of exaggerations, historical and scientific errors and outright fabrications.

What if there is credible evidence that Jesus lived, performed miracles, died and rose from the dead?

There is not a single shred of evidence Jesus existed outside of the NT. The only evidence there is of the myth of Jesus. During the purported time of Jesus there is not a single shred of evidence he existed, no historians have recorded him, no records have been found of him and none of the events as described in the NT have been corroborated. So much so, even the fabled birthplace of Jesus Nazarath, has not been found.

The earliest writing on Jesus was written 40 years after the so-called time of Jesus by unknown authors. There are no eye witness acounts. At best this is heresay.

On the contrary a lot of evidence has been found that the myth of Jesus shared commonalities with older myths.

In your own words, I am not buying what you are selling.