Can a Christian be a Yogi?

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;41454]Yep, that is definitely one of the reasons. The denial and suppression of a natural part of the body is yet another reason why humans reject something.

Christianity has always had a problem with acceptance. We yogis/Hindus have never had a problem accepting the body. We after all created the Kamasutra.

The oppression of the Church has drove people away from Christianity.[/QUOTE]

It’s ironic that so many who insist on not denying their natural desires, while satisfying their natural desires, take pills or use rubber devices to prevent anything natural from happening.

And whatever happened to yogis being celibate?

[QUOTE=thomas;41453]The main reason people reject Christiainity, especially Catholicism, is because it interferes with their sex lives.[/QUOTE]

What about Buddhism?

[QUOTE=kareng;41470]What about Buddhism?[/QUOTE]

I wasn’t being totally serious, but I think there’s a lot of truth to it.

I don’t know what Buddhism has to say about it.

i suppose the same could be said of any practice that stops us doing what we like. In Buddhism they definitely suggest you give up sex altogether and if you must do it then you are to treat it with total indifference, there are even steps or grades of ways to treat it…I remember some reference about it is good not to enjoy it…Sex is very deep rooted in us so its very difficult to remove the pangs for it…it has taken me years to master it.
All the things we have been doing since ??? are the most deep rooted and the most challenging and that why people give up on them…they take time

[QUOTE=thomas;41457]It’s ironic that so many who insist on not denying their natural desires, while satisfying their natural desires, take pills or use rubber devices to prevent anything natural from happening.

And whatever happened to yogis being celibate?[/QUOTE]

Celibacy is a choice in Yoga, based on whether the Yogi feels the need to be celibate. In Yoga celibacy is not recommended, but brahmacharya is, which is regulating ones sensual desires, not denying them. You can still eat, you can still engage in sex, you can still listen to music and watch movies. It is about finding the balance.

You see where Yoga wins over Christianity again is that rather than denying our natural desires, it sublimates them and gives us a structure in order to express them within.

All desires are considered legitimate parts of the growth of a soul. Material, sexual, work, spiritual. We move from one to the other naturally as we grow.
Denying any one of them stunts our growth.

The mind is filled with desires and by suppressing any desire all you end up doing is sending that desire back into the unconscious mind where it grows and grows. In order to control the mind you must first learn to accept it and the world as it is. Sit with your feelings, worries, fears, anxieties. Let them play out. In doing so you will learn more about your self and your mind will unburden some of those desires.

The best way to do this is simply sit and watch your breath, for it indicates what your mental state is like at any given time.

Celibacy is a choice in Yoga, based on whether the Yogi feels the need to be celibate. In Yoga celibacy is not recommended, but brahmacharya is, which is regulating ones sensual desires, not denying them. You can still eat, you can still engage in sex, you can still listen to music and watch movies. It is about finding the balance.

Can this be with random and multiple partners?

Is there any concept of waiting until one finds a partner for life and having an exclusive relationship?

Should the man whose wife is in a coma look for a girlfriend? Should the soldier stationed overseas for a year see prostitutes or have affairs? Should the single person who hasn’t found the right partner have relations just for the fun of it? And what of the pregnancy that might happen at the wrong time and with the wrong partner?

Any sexual relationship outside of a lifelong commitment is already “unbalanced.” I think maybe you’re taking a weakness or lack of discipline and making a rationalization.

No, promiscuity is not encouraged by Yoga. This is considered sexual misconduct. Sex is fine, as long as it is part of a married relationship. In the traditional society one would observe celibacy for the first quarter of their life(to the age of 25) Then one would get married and enjoy the pleasures of sex with their partner, and then obviously have children with them.

However that was then in ancient India. Today we are living in a different society which is not as ideal as the one ancient Indians were living. We are living in a society where boys and girls mix up at school, there is a culture of rampant sex and wherever we look we see sexual imagery. It is hard to go out in this society and not be tempted by sex.

In fact I know very well growing up in this society just how much sex was encouraged from early teens. You had to lose your virginity one way or another and then brag about it your friends. That was then 20 years ago, today children as young as 5-6 are being sexualised.

So rather than observing celibacy or monogomy in this current age, Yoga instead recommends regulation of your sexual and sensual activity. The mind can follow that, but it cannot follow a dictate “Thou shalt not have sex” It has to be gradually be withdrawn from sensual and sexual activity and this is done through a combination of accepting the mind as it is and then practicing Yoga disciplines to gradually tame it.

What are your actual experiences as a yogi Surya? What can you tell us?

[QUOTE=kareng;41617]What are your actual experiences as a yogi Surya? What can you tell us?[/QUOTE]

He’s a legend in his own mind.

[QUOTE=kareng;41617]What are your actual experiences as a yogi Surya? What can you tell us?[/QUOTE]

I just finished writing a fairly brief autobiography of my experience as a yogi in the brahmacharya thread. It chronicles pretty much my development over the period of a decade. This has been my yoga.

The mind can follow that, but it cannot follow a dictate “Thou shalt not have sex” It has to be gradually be withdrawn from sensual and sexual activity and this is done through a combination of accepting the mind as it is and then practicing Yoga disciplines to gradually tame it.

Would the heart-break, the unexpected pregnancy, or an abortion and guilt and regret over killing the baby be the means to this end.

My experience has been that scratching an itch makes it itch more and not less, and that in leaving it alone, it eventually subsides.

Contolling Human beings with an order is difficult Thomas, unfortunately, at times we have to see the errors we make, the hard way.

Theres a whole chapter in Buddhist text devoted to, the itch!

Are we to regulate any desires to be adulterers?

If there is a desire to commit adultery, it should be indulged because it would be wrong to repress it?

I think it would be best to do whatever is necessary to avoid adultery, including repression, if necessary.

Eventually the temptation will pass.

There is no good way to regulate fornication. That’s like regulating how much poison we consume.

I think the ten commandments is a wise list of rules if you want a peaceful life.
Seeing truly, the pain and misery you create by breaking those rules is why they should be obeyed. I have no problem in understanding the necessity for these rules in life…

In Buddhism you have this…its called [B]The Noble Eightfold Path[/B] of course each one has examples of what each rule means

  1. Right View

  2. Right Intention these two are Wisdom

  3. Right Speech

  4. Right Action

  5. Right Livelihood these three are Ethical Conduct

  6. Right Effort

  7. Right Mindfulness

  8. Right Concentration these three are Mental Development

And then you have these:

[B]The Four Noble Truths[/B] of course each one has its explanation Why

  1. Life means suffering.

  2. The origin of suffering is attachment.

  3. The cessation of suffering is attainable.

  4. The path to the cessation of suffering.

and this

All experience is preceded by mind,
Led by mind,
Made by mind.
Speak or act with a corrupted mind,
And suffering follows
As the wagon wheel follows the hoof of the ox.

All experience is preceded by mind,
Led by mind,
Made by mind.
Speak or act with a peaceful mind,
And happiness follows
Like a never-departing shadow.

we are on the same page really Thomas, I have no doubt in that xx A main sentence in Buddhism is that we create our misery’s through DESIRE in its broadest sense… like the story of the tree of knowledge in Genesis and eating from it etc.

Comparing the primitive ten commandments with the enlightened 8-fold path of Buddhism or the yama and niyamas of Yoga is like comparing stone wheel carts with maglev trains

The ten commandments are absolute laws we must abide by or else face death. The 8-fold path and the yamas and niyamas are general guidelines humans should follow to live a life of well being.

Humans cannot follow dictates. They can follow guidelines, provided those guidelines are sensible.

Even the priests and popes in the Church cannot follow the dictates. So how the hell do you expect average joe to?

I don’t mind if you boast about your religion and say it’s the best, SD, that’s a natural thing to do. And I can tolerate your boasting about yourself, and at times it’s even amusing.

But it pisses me off that you go out of your way to disparage other faiths, and especially when you misrepresent and distort.

What does is say about Hinduism and yoga when swamis and gurus have sex with their followers? I think it says that these people failed and abused their positions of power and authority, but it doesn’t say that it’s the fault of Hinduisim or yoga, and it would be unfair to say that it was.

SOME people in high places in the Church have failed, and that’s all you care to look at, but you should be judging the Church and Christianity by the successes, and there are many, of which you are totally ignorant, or choose to ignore.

I will not judge Hinduism by fornicating swamis, but by those who have walked in whatever light Hinduism sheds.

Humans CAN follow dictates. Humans can resist doing wrong because of fear of punishment. Humans can also transcend that and do right out of a love of God. Humans can also sin and stumble and be forgiven and start over.

I have met many “average joes” in my church who are good holy and spirtual people because of their devotion to Catholicism.

The fear of God is just the beginning, as would be a fear of imprisonment to someone inclined to stealing. Eventually that fear can be refined into a desire to do good.

Comparing the primitive ten commandments with the enlightened 8-fold path of Buddhism or the yama and niyamas of Yoga is like comparing stone wheel carts with maglev trains

I can understand why you find this way superior, since it gives you much wiggle room to excuse fornication and “regulate” it instead of denying yourself.

What does is say about Hinduism and yoga when swamis and gurus have sex with their followers? I think it says that these people failed and abused their positions of power and authority, but it doesn’t say that it’s the fault of Hinduisim or yoga, and it would be unfair to say that it was.

Hinduism is not an organized religion with a clergy. So if an individual Hindu guru/swami does something unbecoming, those actions only reflect the individiaul guru/swami. It is not the same in Christianity, because it has a clergy and thus their actions are representative. If this includes the highest places in the Church this is an indictment on Christianity.

Moreover, we understand the swamis actions as not absolute evils. We understand that overall these swamis are developed souls, but they have not reached enlightenment yet and still suffer from pangs of desire. This does not mean we will reject them outright, we can still learn from them.

Humans CAN follow dictates. Humans can resist doing wrong because of fear of punishment. Humans can also transcend that and do right out of a love of God. Humans can also sin and stumble and be forgiven and start over.

I have met many “average joes” in my church who are good holy and spirtual people because of their devotion to Catholicism.

The fear of God is just the beginning, as would be a fear of imprisonment to someone inclined to stealing. Eventually that fear can be refined into a desire to do good.

This is basically primitive psychology. This psychology teaches the basic carrot and stick approach. If somebody does wrong you punish them and if somebody does right you reward them. It has been found in modern psychology that this is the most ineffective way of training humans, and in fact produces rebellion, resentment and repression. This is historically reflected in the sexual revolution in Europe, as soon as the Church’s influence waned on the life of individuals in Europe in victorian times, what followed was an explosion of repressed sexuality.

You keep ignoring these facts of history. You keep ignoring the huge endemic problem of child molestation and sexual deviancy in your own Church. They are outcomes of the bad psychology employed in your religion.

It has instead been found in modern psychology that the best way to train a human is not punish or reward them if they do something wrong, but to regulate their behaviour using positive and negative reinforcement. A negative reinforcement is when the human is subjected to unpleasurable circumstances and the action that produces pleasurable feelings then becomes enforced. The human then learns the action that produces a pleasurable response and does that. A positive reinforcement is when the human is subjected to pleasurable circumstances, and the action that produces non-pleasurable feelings then becomes non-enforced. The human then learns the action that produces a non-pleasurable response and does that.

However this kind of classical conditioning applies mostly to animals because they are more stimulus-response driven, than humans. More effective methods based on learning approach in psychology is to use variable positive and negative enforcements. This is when a pleasurable feeling is then not produced always by the same action, but only sometimes. This kind of approach is used very effectively by corporations in order to maintain employees.

Yoga psychology goes further than modern psychology by using the natural pleasure and pain responses of the body and allowing the subject themselves through awareness to note which responses produce pleasure and which produce pain. The subject then learns how to behave in a manner that will produce maximum pleasure for themselves e.g., which breathing techniques produce the most relaxation and mental balance, which postures produce the best spinal alignment, which food produces the most healthy state. As this is naturally learned behaviour this type of learning is the most effective and most enduring.

The difference between Christianity and Yoga/Hinduism is not just merely ideological and doctrinal, it is the difference between primitive and advanced.
Christianity is based on primitive cosmology, psychology, physics, sociology and this is why it is problem-laden. Hinduism and Buddhism are based on advanced cosmology, psychology, physics and sociology and this is why they are less problem-laden.

Christianity is clearly on its way out. We have rejected most of Christian cosmology, psychology, physics and sociology already in the modern world, in favour of the modern - in favour of the Eastern.

The history of modern civilisation is a history of the rejection of Christianity. In premodern times we were all expected to blindly obey and accept everything the Church said. Its views on cosmology, psychology, sociology, physics, medicine, theology etc. But the Church lost its influence with the rise of science. As soon as people were freed from the shackles of religion and allowed to think freely, people began to increasingly reject the Church.

The biggest blow to the Church was the Copernician revolution which overturrned the geocentric cosmologies. The earth was not the centre of the universe, it was in fact just a planet orbitting a sun in a universe that consisted of innumerable suns. This was the beginning of the fall of man from his own believed greatness. Then Galileo overturrned the Aristotlian physical view of the world as being governed by divine will, and showed in fact the universe was governed by natural, predictable laws. Later, creationism was overturrned by Darwin, geologists and astronomers who showed the Earth is not in fact 4000 years old, but billions of years old. Modern humans were not created, they evolved gradually from single celled organisms to primates and then humans. The universe was not created in 6 days and put to rest, but it started with the big bang and is constantly in motion and change. Then Freud destroyed the illusion of free will, and showed that we are determined by unconscious desires.

Meanwhile, the masses rose up against the theocratic sociology where the aristocrats ruled by divine inheritance, drove them out, and free thinking and enterprising humans instead took positions of power in society.

When we look back on history today we see modern times as the rise of man against the religion of Christianity. He rejected what the Church said to him, and decided to find out his own truths.

Does the sun really go around the Earth? False, the earth goes around the sun in a solar system, which in turn goes around a galaxy of innumerable solar systems.
Did god really create the world in 7 days? False, the universe began billions of years ago in a big bang, expanded and evolved and finally evolved life.
Is the world really governed by divine will? False, the universe is governed by predictable, measurable natural laws
Do humans really have free will? False, humans are governed by unconscious forces.
Do the rulers really rule by divine rights? False, the rulers rule by brute force. It is not divinely ordained.

The Church has been struggling ever since and had no choice but to reinterpret everything it once taught as fact to stay alive.

Today, the challenge comes not from science but from Eastern religions. Modern humans now rejects even the “spiritual” beliefs and methods of Christianity.

Baptism and confessions for Yoga/ Meditation
Resurrection for Reincarnation
Personal God for Divine Force/Energy
Immaculate conception for skepticism whether Jesus even existed

You keep ignoring these facts of history. You keep ignoring the huge endemic problem of child molestation and sexual deviancy in your own Church. They are outcomes of the bad psychology employed in your religion.

As I stated previously, the scandal was not about child molestation, but about homosexual priests preying on male teenagers involving consentual relationships. This of course is very evil and wrong, but was not child molestation. And it involved a few and not many and is condemned by all practicing Catholics. You cannot make a case that this is caused by Catholicism any more than I can make a case that Swamis who are womanizers are that way because of Hinduism.

The incident with Galileo had to do with his treading into theology, not his scientific discoveries, which were not entirely accurate, since he thought the sun was the center of the universe. (But relatively speaking, any point could be determined to be a center).

The Catholic Church has never reversed doctrine. The Catholic Church is the same today as it was when founded by Jesus. The only difference is development of Doctrine. There are no reinterpretations of doctrine.

And nobody except mostly fundamentalists, who are not Catholic, beleive that the earth was created in a literal seven days.