Can Yoga be just for fun and/or exercise?

Yoga Discussion General Yoga
#10

Thomas,

Trying to figure out why a similar thread started as “Hello” suddenly dried out and turned into a very friendly chat. Also interesting is a similar turn here when a very profound discussion suddenly ended in wanting to know the specifics of handstand. To me it appears that a very serious question is raised but perhaps no answer is earnestly sought. And that’s fine.

Looks like, and correct me if I am wrong, it is a slight discomfort in doing something that is enjoyed (and costs also less) but there may be underlying religion there and if yes, that will be a spoiler. There is a need “to understand Yoga” to be able to tell other members of the religion that it is “safe” to practice Yoga. In the complaint about the teacher’s preaching, it is not clear if the discomfort is because of the inevitability of Eastern elements in Yoga or the incompetence of a young teacher.

Yoga is India’s gift to humanity, a historical fact that one cannot alter. What to do with it is a personal choice. Philosophy, in the form of “why” is interwoven with the practice, “how”. Philosophy takes to the unseen part of the practice. Again not wanting to see the unseen is one’s personal choice made at the cost of not understanding the practice fully.

I think, it will help to first understand ‘how we understand’. That will raise awareness about seen and unseen that goes hand-in-hand. That will prepare some ground for any further discussion. Yoga of Yoga Sutra talks about mind, thinking, knowledge, the baggage of beliefs and one’s opinions that one falls in love with. And there is nothing religious about it. There is a need to look at how things could be explained (as Core789 has done) without a knee-jerk at each word that ‘sounds’ religious.

#11

Trying to figure out why a similar thread started as “Hello” suddenly dried out and turned into a very friendly chat. Also interesting is a similar turn here when a very profound discussion suddenly ended in wanting to know the specifics of handstand.

Not sure what you mean about the “hello” thread and why there would be any concern about an introductory thread being a “friendly chat,” which is what threads like that should be, but my comment to innerathlete about doing a handstand was because he decided to abrubtly end the discussion and not respond to my responses to his questions or the other points I raised, so it was just my way of saying “no hard feelings” and that there was no intent to offend and none taken, and maybe we can talk about something else.

Looks like, and correct me if I am wrong, it is a slight discomfort in doing something that is enjoyed (and costs also less) but there may be underlying religion there and if yes, that will be a spoiler. There is a need “to understand Yoga” to be able to tell other members of the religion that it is “safe” to practice Yoga. In the complaint about the teacher’s preaching, it is not clear if the discomfort is because of the inevitability of Eastern elements in Yoga or the incompetence of a young teacher.

It’s not at all about the incompetence of any teacher, but about a teacher blending her own religion into the practice.

I have been been assured that yoga is not a religion, and that there is no deity in yoga and no creed, yet sometimes it at least appears that there is religion there, depending upon the teacher.

I have read that that “OM” means God, similar to “I AM,” and that it is a prayer to God, so if that’s the case, how can someone say Yoga has no diety? Or does OM mean something else?

Yes, I would like to be able to thoroughly understand it so I can help others see past what might be stubmbling blocks to them.

It’s too good of a thing to keep to myself.

What do you mean “costs less”? Costs less than what?

Yoga is India’s gift to humanity, a historical fact that one cannot alter. What to do with it is a personal choice. Philosophy, in the form of “why” is interwoven with the practice, “how”. Philosophy takes to the unseen part of the practice. Again not wanting to see the unseen is one’s personal choice made at the cost of not understanding the practice fully.

What unseen do you think I don’t want to see? I just don’t want to practice another religion, or have religious practices and beliefs imposed on me. I have been open minded enough to go the yoga studio and do asanas, and to understand as much as possible as I can about yoga in its entirety. I’m reading Patanjali, and have come here to this board to learn more. I think it would be unfair to say I don’t want to see, when I’m making a great effort to know and understand, and to be fair. I will not dismiss yoga as others have done because of what they think it is or what it appears to be, or beause it is practiced by those of other religions.

And I am grateful to the culture from which Yoga came. And they could likewise freely avail themselve of the gift of Christianity if they care to. Riches can flow in both directions.

I think, it will help to first understand ‘how we understand’. That will raise awareness about seen and unseen that goes hand-in-hand. That will prepare some ground for any further discussion. Yoga of Yoga Sutra talks about mind, thinking, knowledge, the baggage of beliefs and one’s opinions that one falls in love with. And there is nothing religious about it. There is a need to look at how things could be explained (as Core789 has done) without a knee-jerk at each word that ‘sounds’ religious.

Is it too much to expect that a yoga teacher or yoga studio would explain what certain things are and mean to someone who comes into their studio and who has no clue about it? Why not share what “OM” means instead of just asking us to accept it and do it? What’s so hard about that?

Is it too much to ask that they have some sensitivity to the religions and beliefs of others that they might take that into consideration and at least explain what they do and why they do it?

I’m being fair-minded and meeting them more than half way, and being very tolerant of it. I still love doing yoga, love going to the studio, love the teachers, and have been able to see past the “stumbling blocks,” but the stumbling blocks are there and keep others out.

And I hope you are not implying that someone’s sacred religious beliefs are “baggage.”

But I do not have a “knee jerk” reaction to the things I’ve brougt up. I just have legitimate concerns. I have not confronted anyone or complained. I have come here to better understand, and perhaps see what I might be misunderstanding.

But once again, for me personally, I have a teacher I mainly go to who seems to be “religion neutral.” And I can deal with the others and overlook those things. My concern now is whether I can explain to others who I would like to bring to yoga that it can be practiced by them without compromise to their religious beliefs.

#12

I actually ended appropriately, not abruptly. Thomas, you simply posed one question in your reply to me (twice) and they were both about fear. And having re-read the thread I had gone as far as I was willing.

And here, if you mean “no hard feelings” then say “no hard feelings”. None of us are mind readers and we’re already putting quite a bit of “volunteer” time in without having to wade through a myriad of possible interpretations.

I can assure you, no hard feelings at all. I see where you’re coming from and I’ve given you all I can give. We are all just human and some things need to be discovered, some need to be experienced, and some need to be re-read

I believe you’ve gotten very sound feedback from three dedicated, experienced yoga practitioners (myself included, yes). A complete resolution you’re not likely to find here. Just some crumbs in the woods.

Christian Yoga[U][/U]
Holy Yoga
Yahweh Yoga

#13

Thanks for your comments core789.

I think I understand what you’re saying.

But what if someone comes to yoga and believes he’s already got all the bases covered? I mean, I could make a case that I’ve got six of the limbs covered by what I already do (or should do), but that the physical part is something that is optional in my religion, and I wish to adopt only the asanas and pranayama (while mainting a respectfulness for the rest).

I do understand that yoga goes much deeper than that, but with no disprespect intended, I don’t need the entire depth of yoga, because I’m already getting it. Do you see what I’m saying and do you think that’s possible?

#14

Actually, what I have learnt lately, (to my shocking) there is a certain connection between babies to be born and the group spirit of storks.

For an open mind, what does no exclude the existence of suprasensible reality the following reasoning will not be extremley alien: even if the baby’s physical body is not brough literally by a stork, his/her coming into being on the physical plane is helped by several “beings” or spiritual powers. And from here, it’s only a step to count the spirit stork into the equation, as a possbility. And as a fact ? That’s upto those who have eyes and ears to see and hear. (Not counting myself there, yet :wink: )

PS. We can say we have three kinds of people today: The first whose thinking, by the power of some tradition, birth, is determinded by hystorical schools of thought or dogma, the second who carry the need for understanding in them and are satisfied by materialist scince and it’s theories, and the third, who, by the challenging expereinces of their lives have learnt the value of honest and genuine questioning, and thirst for answers what are able to satisfy the soul’s inner needs while not excluding reason and personal freedom in thought. The teacher should be able to guide the people belonging to the first two categories toward the third category, knowing that for everyone, the gratest teacher is his/her own life, as karma is much wiser than the ordinary human intellect, and the view of karma being determinded is only correct if we realize that this determination already contains the free choices of the being who lives it. Thus, it might be necessary for the teacher to wait years so the disciple arrives to a particular turning point, a important event in his/her life, what creates the opening to recieve a single truth.

Living, existing in the first two categories is just as important as the third, because the first is the foundation what later on will become lit through the understanding of later stages, the second because it nurtures qualities as honesty, focus, and self reliance, and makes the thinking process srong in itself, although this is yet dead. Everyone is just as one needs to be, and everyone lives what one needs to live. For some expereinces we live, we will find the real reasons decades later.

The merit of yoga is that wile being health and body oriented (speaking about yoga as it is often percieved), thus creating an attachment point for sensorial people like Thomas. So he must be encouraged, because while he is not conscious of it, he has come here for reasons what will only reveal themselves in the future. The quality of the mind/soul what says: I don’t accept things what are alien to my own understanding, must be saluted, because acception must always follow understanding, and not some outer authority.

#15

Sorry for the typos and horrible grammar. Can’t correct themas I exceeded the timelimit, again. :wink:

Love you guys.

#16

what is yoga??

#17

Namaste,

Not to reiterate what has already been stated in many threads, but it is impossible to separate Yoga from Hinduism. Even if you choose only to do the asanas, you still can’t escape the fact that the asanas have been created as a means towards the goal of Hinduism: self-realization/union with divine consciousness/liberation from the cycle of rebirth. You also cannot escape the fact that the asanas are based on a particular system of Hindu metaphysics which posits the existence of prana, chakras, nadis which form an intricate energy system of our subtle body. The asanas open up these energy channels and eventually facilitate the rise of Kundalini energy. Nor can you escape the fact that many of the Mudras, Asanas are based on Hindu deities.

So there are two ways of you approaching this

  1. You abandon Yoga because of its inseparable ties to Hindu beliefs and practices
  2. You accept Yoga’s inseparable ties to Hindu beliefs and practices, but use it as a tool to enhance your own spirituality and integrate it with your own religion

What you should not do, however, is expect Yoga to change for you. You need to change for Yoga.

#18

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;39417]Namaste,

Not to reiterate what has already been stated in many threads, but it is impossible to separate Yoga from Hinduism. Even if you choose only to do the asanas, you still can’t escape the fact that the asanas have been created as a means towards the goal of Hinduism: self-realization/union with divine consciousness/liberation from the cycle of rebirth. You also cannot escape the fact that the asanas are based on a particular system of Hindu metaphysics which posits the existence of prana, chakras, nadis which form an intricate energy system of our subtle body. The asanas open up these energy channels and eventually facilitate the rise of Kundalini energy. Nor can you escape the fact that many of the Mudras, Asanas are based on Hindu deities.

So there are two ways of you approaching this

  1. You abandon Yoga because of its inseparable ties to Hindu beliefs and practices
  2. You accept Yoga’s inseparable ties to Hindu beliefs and practices, but use it as a tool to enhance your own spirituality and integrate it with your own religion

What you should not do, however, is expect Yoga to change for you. You need to change for Yoga.[/QUOTE]

But a vegetarian diet could also be developed by a religion and be intended to be a key element of their beliefs, yet someone outside of the religion could take their diet without taking the totality of their religion.

I don’t see why likewise cannot be done with the asanas, regardless of the intent behind their development.

I don’t believe in chakras or kundulini energy or chi or any of the rest–not unless and until they can be proven. I don’t believe in reincarnation and will never integrate that concept into my beliefs.

I started doing “yoga” because it would be good for my health and overall well-being. If I’m not really doing yoga because I reject the totality of yoga, then so be it. I’ll call it whatever I have to call it so as not to offend anyone.

But on the other hand, I still don’t know what yoga is, and I get a different answer every time I ask. You say that Yoga is Hindu and only Hindu, and the other extreme says that I can make it into whatever I want it to be.

#19

Thomas,

Breathe! We are many different people in all shapes, sizes and beliefs. On this forum you will see those like Surya who believe you can’t separate yoga from Hinduism, some who could care less where yoga came from and some who are kind of in the middle. You will get many different answers. You need to figure out which one works best for you. I know Surya Deva and some others disagree with mine and some others understanding that Yoga is not a religion and it is universal in its appeal and reach. It should never be denied to anyone. Regardless. You don’t have to become Hindu to practice yoga and you won’t magically become Hindu if you do. It is up to you and what you want.

Take what you want from yoga. If it is the physical part, then tune out the rest, don’t engage in a mudra or chant OM. Ask your teacher for some time after class to explain these things to you. Often times teachers forget when they have a new student that they may not be familiar with the whole of yoga. It’s not intentional, but if they have a large class, sometimes it is hard to remember.

Core made some very good points about OM. Suhas Tambe, Gordon, and Hubert all offered wonderful insights and explanations. They are all very knowledgeable and kind with there time.

Use your love of yoga to spark some dialogue with your teachers, asking them questions about the aspects of yoga you do not understand.

It can be confusing and even frustrating when you are new to something that you feel so passionate about and have so many questions. Patience is the answer, my friend!

Namaste!

#20

Thomas,

If you feel good doing yoga and are getting benefits from it then go ahead and learn more new things in it. If possible teach others as well who are willing to learn it. After all it all depends on you what you want to and how!

I really liked the way Lotus girl has explained everything in nutshell.

#21

Like others have said, Thomas you can adapt yoga as you wish, however, yoga is not going to adapt for you. The fact of the matter is yoga is a complete philosophy and practice, and teachers of yoga are going to cover it all, otherwise it would not be teaching complete yoga. To expect them to filter out some stuff to respect your religious sensiblities is unreasonable, because ultimately it is your choice whether you do yoga or not and your choice how many of its practices you want to do.

I am not going to attempt to convince you about chakras, nadis, kundalini etc, but it should be known this is the science behind yoga and why it works according to the yogis. There is no doubt about yoga working, it obviously works very well, but why it works so well cannot be explained using just a purely physical approach, one has to look at the claimed subtle dynamics that the yogis have mapped out.

I personally think it is a bit disrespectful to reject the theory behind Yoga because this is undermining the investigations done by the yogis over several millenia and the data they have collated over time. It is akin to rejecting the research of an entire culture and this is a very ignorant attitude, in my opinion. Especially when the technology of yoga they have developed works so well. If the practice is sound, the theory it is based on must also be sound.

In any case yoga does not require you to begin with any beliefs in the theory. Theory is not knowledge itself, it is just possible knowledge. It only becomes real knowledge when it is experienced. So just do the practices and find out for yourself whether the theory is right or not :slight_smile:

You can construct your yoga program as you wish, there are no fixed ways of constructing a yoga program. However, some programs are obviously more effective than others and the chances are if you devise your own, it will be as effective as the ones devised by experts. Generally, and just some helpful advice, you will stand to benefit much more from yoga if you practice all of its aspects.

#22

[QUOTE=thomas;39087]The bottom line of what I’m trying to figure out is that I would like to have a sufficient understanding of Yoga so that I could intelligently and respectfully explain to fellow Christians why they have nothing to fear, and that no compromise in their faith is required …[/QUOTE]

It sounds very serious. Seems you want to be a voice of authority in this matter and from my own experience (I’m both Christian-Catholic and I practice yoga) I know its extremely difficult subject. And also responsibility. Being an example to others (as you are now - practicing yoga and remaining committed Christian) is a bit different from speaking from a place of authority about nature of yoga and its effect on Christian faith. I guess to find answer to this question you would have to get to some sociological data about Christians who were introduced to yoga and how it affected their faith (controlled in terms of pre-existing crisis of faith).

My gut feeling that in long run it will be damaging to “surface levels” of faith (by “surface level” I mean literal and concept based level). Because of meditation practice which is a core of yoga. With meditation you develop more contemplative relation to world and God. And, from my own experience, it results in loss of meaning of those “surface levels” of faith. And sorry to say, meditation and contemplation is not the strongest point of Christian practice. Very few people practice like that. I was lucky to be in a Christian group in which we contemplated a lot.

#23

These types of things always leave me with the same thought, and I mean no offence… but

How insecure can one be in their own faith/spirituality if they are so easily threatened by a yoga class?

My suggestion, find a Power Yoga Class and stop worrying about it.

And for the record I only do Yoga as part of my workout to benefit my Martial Arts.

#24

[QUOTE=Yulaw;39441]These types of things always leave me with the same thought, and I mean no offence… but

How insecure can one be in their own faith/spirituality if they are so easily threatened by a yoga class?

My suggestion, find a Power Yoga Class and stop worrying about it.

And for the record I only do Yoga as part of my workout to benefit my Martial Arts.[/QUOTE]

Interesting that you see a desire to share yoga with those who don’t understand it, while also desiring to be respectful to the integrity of yoga, and respectful to those of other beliefs, as “insecurity.”

Or maybe you have missed the point and not carefully read my comments.

I’m perfectly fine with the parts of yoga I’ve accepted, and can deal with those things I cannot accept or don’t yet understand.

It’s not about “worry,” but an endeavor to thoroughly understand.

I’m cool with the classes I’m going to now and with the teachers.

#25

[QUOTE=thomas;39443]Interesting that you see a desire to share yoga with those who don’t understand it, while also desiring to be respectful to the integrity of yoga, and respectful to those of other beliefs, as “insecurity.”

Or maybe you have missed the point and not carefully read my comments.

I’m perfectly fine with the parts of yoga I’ve accepted, and can deal with those things I cannot accept or don’t yet understand.

It’s not about “worry,” but an endeavor to thoroughly understand.

I’m cool with the classes I’m going to now and with the teachers.[/QUOTE]

Interesting that you dismiss what I said as missunderstanding or not reading properly

you may want to reread your own posts, this is one of them

[QUOTE=thomas;39087]The bottom line of what I’m trying to figure out is that I would like to have a sufficient understanding of Yoga so that I could intelligently and respectfully [B][U]explain to fellow Christians why they have nothing to [I]fear[/I], and that no compromise in their faith [/U]is required AND to be able to intelligently and respectfully explain to those who teach Yoga and who are otherwise involved in the “Yoga industry,” that they might be alienating Christians and those of particular faiths, and invalidating the faiths of some by what they say and teach, and that they might consider being more sensitive to the idea that Yoga could be enoyed by all, and not just those who embrace eastern religions[/B].[/QUOTE]

That to me brings the question

How insecure can one be in their own faith/spirituality if they are so easily threatened by a yoga class?

You are talking about fear and that was covered much better than I could cover it by InnerAthlete so I will not go any further here either

#26

[QUOTE=thomas;39079]

So I tried it, and found it to be like Thai massage except that I had to do all the work, but a $10 yoga class did more for me than a $90 Thai massage, and I was getting in shape too.

[/QUOTE]

YOu got it:))

Also there are different types of yoga. SOme focused on body poses, strengths and sweat and some on chanting and contemplation, devotion , etc. I found mantras and other "non-bodily’ things very helpful on my yoga path as well as for my students.

#27

I actually find little or no difference between the 8 limbs of yoga and the doctrines of many other religions (without reference to a god). It seems the goal is the same; spiritual fulfillment.

I have no problem finding many parallels with Christian doctrine, and would recommend practicing any or all of the limbs of yoga in order to enhance the Christian experience.

The message is simple; do good to yourself, do good to others, hold true to your self.

#28

That’s it FlexPenguin! I was trying to articulate how I “adapt” any religious sounding experience to fit with my beliefs, and you hit it right on the head! Find parallels!
An example would be: I believe in the body’s energy system, and that we can focus that energy flow, such as when we pray for an area of the body to be healed and visualize healing, divine light in the area.
Using this belief, I can, instead of picturing my ego flowing out through down turned feelings in a mudra, imagine negative or limiting thoughts or energies flowing out to be “recycled” by nature/mother earth.
A Christian could also use his own interpretation of this: Picture thoughts and ideas that are not of God to flow out and away from you, or “sins”. God forgives you for your sins, and you release them in this manner.

#29

[QUOTE=Yulaw;39445]Interesting that you dismiss what I said as missunderstanding or not reading properly

you may want to reread your own posts, this is one of them

That to me brings the question

How insecure can one be in their own faith/spirituality if they are so easily threatened by a yoga class?

You are talking about fear and that was covered much better than I could cover it by InnerAthlete so I will not go any further here either[/QUOTE]

I was referring to people who don’t understand yoga–who think it’s something it is not. The “fear” I was referring to in this instance is a legitimate concern.

They are not “threatened” by a yoga class. They will simply dismiss it as being in the realm kooks, or will dismiss it as being another religion.

I would like to be able to sort things out so I throughly understand it myself, and can intelligently explain it to those on the outside, with the hope I can help them see past the stumbling blocks. And frankly, there are stumbling blocks that those on the yoga side could do a better job of removing or explaining.

What’s your problem with that, dude?