Commercial Yoga: Misleading and false promises

Have a look at this new type of Yoga: http://www.quantumyoga.com/

This is not a thread by the way to advertise this type of Yoga, though it will achieve some level of promotion for this web site by linking to it. This thread is actually to criticize this kind of irresponsible, hokey, pseudoscientific new-age commercialization of Yoga, spirituality and quantum physics evident on this site.

I would like you to read a few of the pages on this web site, notice the kind of language used: “harnessing the vital energy force, synchronizing the mind, body and soul, creating a more harmonious stream of consciousness, conscious, living, dynamic and sacred practice that leads to self-realization, creating an active dialogue between body/energy and mind/heart, holistic practice that addresses the body, breath and mind, realigning the energy”

This is all new age fluff talk designed to sell some product, in this case the product is Quantum Yoga. What is unique about quantum Yoga over any other type of Yoga? Nothing, it is just a different sequence of asanas devised by another wannabe who wants to do business with Yoga. She is trying to sell it using buzz words from quantum physics, Ayurveda and Yoga. In actual fact her practice is neither quantum physics, Ayurveda or Yoga. It just asanas arranged in another sequence. She is selling a sequence and nothing else.

We should not fall for all this hype on sequences and realignment and the mumbo jumbo that is used to sell it. None of this is Yoga, it is just asanas. The same asanas that anybody could learn and develop their own sequence. There is nothing new or innovative about these various types of Yoga you seem popping up every month. They are nothing more than commercial brands - not designed to make you enlightened - but designed to make your wallet/purse lighter. They sell you fake spirituality.

I used to often mention the copious amounts of, “bullshit in today’s yoga circles” and would get readily attacked for it. Over time, I realized I was full of it as well and have since then been peeling off some layers (plenty to go, no doubt). What I have come to realize is that there is very little truth in the yoga most of us have come to practice and teach and yes, what you point out just further moves us away from that truth.

Of course, I’m at the point where I think patanjali wrote the first book for improving and maintaining health (and a brilliant one at that) and all the spiritual stuff that has been piled onto it over the ages is hooey, so most may choose to ignore me ;). And now we’re commercializing that spirituality because it’s much easier to sell someone something based upon that which cannot be proven or unproven rather than the hard sciences. “This crystal will align your chakras”.

Although I am not endorsing this ‘quantum yoga’, I would kindly ask; how is this different than Pattabhi Jois, B.K.S. Iyengar, and Indra Devi taking what they learned from Krishnamacharya, changing the sequences around and branding it to the public at large?

I can share only my view, as I’ve done here in this ethereal community several thousand times previously.

There is nothing “new” under the sun. At the same time there are many offerings under the heading of Yoga that appear to lack any undercurrent, deeper soil, roots, or foundation. Many of those can be called “just asana”.

And while there’s nothing at all “wrong” with “just asana” it is misleading to call it Yoga. However we should consider that a person can only do based on their current level of knowing or understanding. A teacher who has a shallow training, brevity of practice, a lack of true lineage, and an aversion to learning from someone other than themselves…well such a person would be less likely to understand the larger picture.

The applied philosophy of Purna Yoga does not only use the Sutras. It does not ONLY use the Gita. Instead it combines the Hatha Yoga Pradipika, the Vedas, and the Upanishads WITH these two others. I mention this not to promote my practice but to segue to this point. [I]Dharma, Artha, Kama, Moksha[/I]. These are the four [I]Purusharthas[/I]. It is a directive on the pursuits one should take up on the path of Yoga. And while there may be disputes among those who fancy the sound of their own diatribe, it is fairly clear that [I]Artha[/I] is wealth. As such I would not begrudge a person from pursuing and realizing the wealth NECESSARY FOR THEIR DHARMA.

More to the point of the posted web site, my approach is to merely continue the work of offering a complete, robust, practice to those who want it. It is my way of “combating” what David refers to as bull excrement. In that process I diligently work to not energize that which does not lead the student of yoga toward light.

“This crystal will align your chakras”.

Absolutely. It is hilarious hearing somebody talk to you about their chakra issues, “Well, my solar plexus chakra is is spinning at a lower rate than my sexual chakra, which is causing my energetic imbalances. In order to remedy it I must chant VAAAAAMMMM and spin clockwise n number of times” They talk about chakras as if they are factual entities that can be perceived directly and their spin rate known. You know such people are full of rubbish as soon as they open their mouth.

At the same time lets not throw the baby out with the bathwater. The spirituality of Yoga is very real. Yoga is based on matter-consciousness dualism, this is the only reason why Yoga works. Matter and consciousness are not the same substances, they are separate substances. The idea that they are one and the same is the result of ‘identification’ and Yoga reverses this process by getting you to become consciously aware of the matter of your body itself. This is why the magic of Yoga happens - why our health improves, why we activate unconscious abilities, why we release emotions and disturbing thoughts, and why OBE, Samadhi take place. Hence Patanjali’s opening sutras, "Yoga is the cessation of the the activities/modifications/waves of the mind, then the witnessing consciousness is revealed in its true form, at other times it is identified with them(the activities/modifications/waves of the mind) Simply, the very act of witnessing which is the the modus operandi of Yoga, we begin to reverse the identification process and the magic starts to happen. I speak from not just theory but from direct experience. I have been able to consciously leave my body(or rather reverse the identification with the physical body) simply through witnessing the sensations in my body.

There are many different forms of religion and or study in the world that use chakras or similar things and I would recommend you not put down a large class of people’s beliefs and beleive your self above them and still think you are acting in any kind of compassionate way towards anyone.

Energy work is certainly real and yoga is one way of doing it yourself, so is science and healing modalities which are just as ancient as yoga, some came from the same area some came from further east and some are mix of different things. It is not too different from other modalities in the world, it just presents itself in a way that was accessible to people in the area where it started. Even lamas and gurus are getting their brainwaves scanned during meditation. Even if consciousness/mind/soul is on a completely different plane (which I do not beleive and not all yogis or even hindus beleive in complete dualism and they get into arguments about how it is all connected) it does affect your body, science shows this, the results of yoga show this. And those affects can be measured. Do I think someone can see this? Maybe or maybe not. Do I care if they can or cannot if they can help me? Nope. Someone could completely try to screw you over and lie to you but you can still benefit, and it is up to you to determine how that affects your path, not necssarily others.

I saw 5 psychologists until one finally worked for me. Was he saying a whole lot different from the others? No. It was the right place and time and person for MY mind to understand what I needed. Every person is on their own path in life, who are you to judge someone elses. I have a great massage therapist. She can move her hands over my body and feel where the energy in my body is, where it is trapped, and where she should work to get the best results. She thinks of them as chakras. My doctor has me do accupressure on my meridians (did not know she was so into energy work or fufu stuff as you call it, never met a main stream doctor who did before her) to help with certain conditions. Honest to God it works amazingly. So you can feel sad for me, but I certainly do not.

A lot of people have had experiences of leaving their body and do not do yoga. This is a practice almost all ancient societies practiced, or at least the spiritual elite did. Some of these people use crystals. Some chant things. I am suprised at this reaction from you since most people who do not do yoga think that people who are doing yoga chanting matras or aum or whatever are crazy fufu people. Seems hypocritical.

I did not click on the link, I do not know what quantum yoga is, nor do I care to find out at this moment in my life. However, I am much more secure in my beleifs than to need to critisize others, especially people who I do not know. There are certainly things that seem very strange to me and I have absolutely no connection to them, at least at this point in my life. That does not mean that someone else cannot and that the connection they have can bring them closer to their true self or to God or to Brahmin or to wtf they want to connect to. the thing I learned from my favorite Hindu person is that the hindu community he knew in general thought that all Gods were the same God so people practicing Christianity or Judaism or whatver were all practicing the same thing as Hinduism. That it was just different words or different pictures or different fables etc. The core is the same. And yes we want to share what we know and what works for us because we think it is miraculous and amazing, and it is, but we need to take our own ego out of that and realize it doesnt work for everyone. If we do that then maybe we can realize that we can learn from other peoples different ideas too. That part of their beleifs we can really connect to and use in our own practice. It is all just a different perspective.

This is my opinion and just that…!!
Quantum Yoga or any other branded/unbranded yoga is just a business and there is no so called “yogic rule” that bans business.

Multiple streams of Yoga are a necessity to give improvement or variation to the techniques established centuries ago.

If quantum yoga is all fluff, then yoga itself becomes one when one thinks broadly enough.

There are many different forms of religion and or study in the world that use chakras or similar things and I would recommend you not put down a large class of people’s beliefs and beleive your self above them and still think you are acting in any kind of compassionate way towards anyone.

I am not really against the the theory of chakras. In fact I accept them, as I accept the theories of Yoga, quantum physics, Ayurveda etc. What I am pointing out here in my criticism of this quantum Yoga and other gimmicks like this is how they appropriate and misapply these theories to sell and market their products. Quantum Yoga actually really has nothing to do with Ayurveda, Yoga or quantum physics - it is straight up just a sequence of asanas. It is only using concepts from these concepts to boslter and sell its package. This is why i said it is irresponsible, hokey, pseudoscientific.

Energy work is certainly real and yoga is one way of doing it yourself, so is science and healing modalities which are just as ancient as yoga, some came from the same area some came from further east and some are mix of different things. It is not too different from other modalities in the world, it just presents itself in a way that was accessible to people in the area where it started. Even lamas and gurus are getting their brainwaves scanned during meditation. Even if consciousness/mind/soul is on a completely different plane (which I do not beleive and not all yogis or even hindus beleive in complete dualism and they get into arguments about how it is all connected) it does affect your body, science shows this, the results of yoga show this. And those affects can be measured. Do I think someone can see this? Maybe or maybe not. Do I care if they can or cannot if they can help me? Nope. Someone could completely try to screw you over and lie to you but you can still benefit, and it is up to you to determine how that affects your path, not necssarily others.

Again, I have got nothing against energy work. I am not against the concepts of chakras, meridians, auras. I appreciate there is some good scientific evidence and theories that explain them. We already have validated the existence of them in modern biology through detailed analysis of the nervous system, endocrine system, cerebral system - we have confirmed many of the functions the Yogis have described - such as the left and right hemispheres, nasal breathing cycles, the major plexus points. At the very least we understand at least the physical structures the chakras are related. This has given us detailed tools for working with them. All very practical, testable and applicable.

Again what I am criticizing here is not the the energy work itself, but the misappropriation of it by new agers. The rubbish about “balancing your chakras” using crystals, mantras, visualizations, drawing symbols etc. This is garbage and nobody can be treated of any disease through this. It is just fluff. The real hard science of working with chakras is working directly on the nervous system/endrocrine system/cereberal system with measurable effects.

I saw 5 psychologists until one finally worked for me. Was he saying a whole lot different from the others? No. It was the right place and time and person for MY mind to understand what I needed. Every person is on their own path in life, who are you to judge someone elses. I have a great massage therapist. She can move her hands over my body and feel where the energy in my body is, where it is trapped, and where she should work to get the best results. She thinks of them as chakras. My doctor has me do accupressure on my meridians (did not know she was so into energy work or fufu stuff as you call it, never met a main stream doctor who did before her) to help with certain conditions. Honest to God it works amazingly. So you can feel sad for me, but I certainly do not.

Clinical trials have shown us clearly that none of this stuff actually works better than a placebo. Acupuncture, Reiki, crystals do not work. If you have a real disease you get real treatment. Placebos will just delay you getting treatment - giving you the illusion you are getting better, when you are not.

A lot of people have had experiences of leaving their body and do not do yoga. This is a practice almost all ancient societies practiced, or at least the spiritual elite did. Some of these people use crystals. Some chant things. I am suprised at this reaction from you since most people who do not do yoga think that people who are doing yoga chanting matras or aum or whatever are crazy fufu people. Seems hypocritical.

I am not describing Yoga practice, but Yoga theory on which OBE actually happens: It is happens because of the identification process with the physical body is reversed by bringing one into witnessing consciousness. One could be doing any practice Yogic or non-Yogic, the explanation is still the same if an OBE happens.

I did not click on the link, I do not know what quantum yoga is, nor do I care to find out at this moment in my life. However, I am much more secure in my beleifs than to need to critisize others, especially people who I do not know. There are certainly things that seem very strange to me and I have absolutely no connection to them, at least at this point in my life. That does not mean that someone else cannot and that the connection they have can bring them closer to their true self or to God or to Brahmin or to wtf they want to connect to. the thing I learned from my favorite Hindu person is that the hindu community he knew in general thought that all Gods were the same God so people practicing Christianity or Judaism or whatver were all practicing the same thing as Hinduism. That it was just different words or different pictures or different fables etc. The core is the same. And yes we want to share what we know and what works for us because we think it is miraculous and amazing, and it is, but we need to take our own ego out of that and realize it doesnt work for everyone. If we do that then maybe we can realize that we can learn from other peoples different ideas too. That part of their beleifs we can really connect to and use in our own practice. It is all just a different perspective.

This is not a very responsible attitude. So you are saying that we should let people mislead people if they want to? The author of the quantum Yoga is misleading people by pretending that quantum yoga is something to do with Yoga, quantum physics and Ayurveda, when in fact it has nothing to do with it. It makes all kinds of false promises like quantum Yoga will bring one to self-realization, realign their energy, perceive through the illusion of maya, when quantum yoga is nothing more than just a sequence of asanas and will do nothing more than what any other asana based yoga does.

@upcyclebliss,

Loved what you wrote and couldn’t agree more.

@SD,

Please show me clinical trials that disprove Reiki. There will be just as many that prove it. As a Reiki practitioner, I have first hand seen results with clients and my yoga students. A very dear friend of mine came over for a visit. She had been nursing a bad knee for sometime. I did a full Reiki session on her and afterwards she had no issues with her knee and continues to be pain free. A fluke? I don’t think so. And probably one of the most profound Reiki treatments happened about a year ago. One of my students is the assistant Abbott at a Zen Center here. He had a friend who was Abbott at another center close by who was diagnosed with cancer. I offered to do a treatment if he was receptive. He was. I had no further info other than he was quite ill and had cancer. When I got to the area of his chest I felt such intense heat that I broke out into a sweat. (quite unusual for me) After the session he sat up and took my hand and placed it on his chest and proceeded to tell me about his diagnosis of lung cancer. He asked me what, if anything I noticed or felt. I told him about the intense heat in the area of his chest. He then shared that my hand placement was the EXACT spot of his cancer. He then shared that he had only weeks to live saying the Reiki was meant to help him not heal but to be in less pain and more at peace so as to have better quality time with his family in his final days. We had planned another treatment, but sadly he passed before it came to fruition. So, call it new age, call it fluff, call it whatever you like. It is real and it works.

I did check the link and website. Unless you are directly involved or have taken a Quantum yoga class, how can you KNOW it is rubbish or fake? How can we know with certainty that each person who brands their style of yoga does so only with the idea of making money? We can’t.

I am not really against the the theory of chakras. In fact I accept them, as I accept the theories of Yoga, quantum physics, Ayurveda etc. What I am pointing out here in my criticism of this quantum Yoga and other gimmicks like this is how they appropriate and misapply these theories to sell and market their products. Quantum Yoga actually really has nothing to do with Ayurveda, Yoga or quantum physics - it is straight up just a sequence of asanas. It is only using concepts from these concepts to boslter and sell its package. This is why i said it is irresponsible, hokey, pseudoscientific.

Asanas affect the body. Breath work affects the body. Bandhas and Mudras affect the body. Combine these and it has a profound affect on not only the body, but the mind as well. Ayurveda matches yoga practice to dosha. Example would be Pitta. Pitta body type should avoid excess heat. To do so, a quieter and more gentle practice is in order. Poses like pigeon, camel and cobra open the chest and squeeze the solar plexus which helps release excess heat. So knowing your body type will dictate your ideal practice to bring balance.

The house of yoga can be entered through many doors. What is important is that we end up in roughly the same place.

Arguing about my Yoga practice is correct and your yoga is not according to Patanjali Yoga is immaterial in this Kaliyug. Whoever makes more money in selling whatever way they feel like is the best. Others will not make money, keep correcting the one who goes for a kill, and be left behind in this rat race for material benefits.

Hurry up! If you feel like that you can sell it better, you better go for it.

Don’t worry about Patanjali. He gave GNU license for his Hatha Yoga Pradipika.

My massage therapist uses crystals and reiki in her energy work. I dislike how you use energy work as something good but any body else who uses in ways you disagree with is discredited because of scientific reasons, yet the general population of science would disagree with almost all yoga/energy work etc and think that you are indeed full of new age fluff. I dont agree with them and it does seem to be changing, ever so slowly.

The thing about placebo in cases of things like this is that it also takes into account the group of people who are doing something else but science does not know they should include it (because they do not know the patient is doing it or htat it is an important part of their life) and hte limitations of what modern science can measure or the limitations on what is measured do to research budgets ideologies and methodologies. If you do not beleive in something from the start it is easy to not measure something important in the experiment because you do not see any connection to something else. Like diet studies who only measure phsyical activity and calories/nutrition but do not take into account how happy someone is in general or how much stress is in their life. Until recently that was pretty normal. The disease of “stress” is somewhat new.

Visualization is probably the most powerful tool people can have. Even if it just keeps you in a positive mood which most doctors will provide is important to recovery from a lot of diseases. It also allows you to see things much easier that are affecting your. For instance, if I am visualizing me being well after a sinus infection I can visualize and almost feel what breathing was like before. I also notice when my breathing gets better or worse and can tell what was really helping me. Crystals certainly have a lot of energy from the world, they have been used a long time. Do they really help me heal, I dont know. If someone else beleives they do and it helps her to help me, do I care if the crystal was just a placebo? Not a chance.

Go to a massage and concentrate on sending your energy to that area and you get so much more results. Breathe into the area etc. Most crystal exersizes link a crystal to a certain area of hte body. They then concentrate on that crystal and that area. Should it work without a crystal. Sure. If they think it helps them more with a crystal why should I care? I own a few crystals, mostly because I think they are pretty. I do think having them to concentrate on is helpful in me focusing. Not sure if they help me other wise, but I do not care if they do or do not.

I beleive that the people of quantum yoga, as most people who have a specific type of yoga they like, really beleive htat it is more beneficial for them. Probably because it is. For them. Is it necessarily best for everyone. No. Nothing is best for everyone. But they are not promising anything from their type of yoga htat other types of yoga do not provide at the same time. That most yoga practitioners do not claim to be aspiring to acheive. Marketing is all about offering a specific product to a specific user in a way that use will want the product. All yoga is offered this way. Some people enjoy Ashtanga, some enjoy Bikram, some enjoy sitting in savasana for an hour and some people will never set foot on a mat but are very committed to a non asana practice. Most do a mix of al lof the above. If this place can offer something to someone in a way that helps them see what they need to reach self realization, that does not make hte result any less. So no, I do not think that I am being irresponsible. I do think it is irresponsible to just read a website and judge an entire group of people. In fact, I think it is irresponsible to judge and entire group of people in general. People who own studios need to pay rent. Is it any more wrong than opening a shoe shop for someone who is really passionate about shoes or foot health? Is it wrong for them to sell what they think works the best? No. If it doesnt work for you dont buy it. If it doesnt work for anyone, no one will buy it and they go under. That is what business is. Not yoga. Do I not go to Bikram because I do not like his business techniques. Yes. Others dont have a problem with it, their choice. I also dont shop at certain grocery stores becaus I disagree with them, but I dont judge others who do shop there.

It mostly seems your definition of fluff is wht you think it is and what is not fluff is also what you think it is. A lot of people think OBE are all fluff.

Thanks lotus girl. And btw, I have a friend who is really good at reiki and if I am not feeling well on my mat in class an she is next to me I have to tell her to stop because I start sweating. I would recommend anyone who does not beleive in it to go up and feel the heat emenating from somones hand before and after a reiki session. It is crazy. I beleive in what I can feel and see and experience. Is a large part of it all in my head? I am more of a kant kind of person and beleive it is ALL in my head. Does that make it any more and less real than what is in anyone elses head, probably not.

My massage therapist uses crystals and reiki in her energy work. I dislike how you use energy work as something good but any body else who uses in ways you disagree with is discredited because of scientific reasons, yet the general population of science would disagree with almost all yoga/energy work etc and think that you are indeed full of new age fluff. I dont agree with them and it does seem to be changing, ever so slowly.

Many massage therapists do. There is just no reliable evidence that any of this stuff works. People use therapies like Reiki, crystals and other new-age things because of belief and for them it acts as a placebo.

Energy work in terms of Yoga are actual physical exercises like asanas, bandhas, pranayama which are specifically designed to improve the flow of energy in your body(especially pranayama) which the Yogi devised through trial and error observation of their bodies. They did not have the modern diagnostic tools we have today. But we do indeed have many clinical studies that support Yoga does this. In modern scientific language we do not use Yogic words like chakras, nadis/meridians, we use words like endocrine glands, parasympathetic and sympathetic nervous system, which roughly correspond to their Yogic equivalents and for practical purposes are far more detailed.

While Yoga is based on hard science, Reiki, EFT and crystal healing are not. There is no evidence they work any better than a placebo. If there is, please show me and I will review it. In any case why would anybody want to do something that is not demonstrated to work as opposed to something that has been demonstrated to work over and over again?

The thing about placebo in cases of things like this is that it also takes into account the group of people who are doing something else but science does not know they should include it (because they do not know the patient is doing it or htat it is an important part of their life) and hte limitations of what modern science can measure or the limitations on what is measured do to research budgets ideologies and methodologies. If you do not beleive in something from the start it is easy to not measure something important in the experiment because you do not see any connection to something else. Like diet studies who only measure phsyical activity and calories/nutrition but do not take into account how happy someone is in general or how much stress is in their life. Until recently that was pretty normal. The disease of “stress” is somewhat new.

Indeed, there are many limitations to our current scientific methodologies and frameworks, but we are making progress by designing even more better experiments and approaches, and as a result of which our knowledge is growing. Science is not perfect, but it is a lot better than the alternative methods like belief and speculation. This fine point many people who express anti-scientific in order to advance religious views do not understand. Ok, so we do not know absolutely how the universe came into being, but the big bang theory is our best yet explanation for how it came into being, supported by a great body of empirical evidence. We also know how did it not come into being: it was not created in 7 days :wink:

In short science is our best means of collecting reliable and valid knowledge. It is not perfect, but it a lot better than any other methods we know.

Visualization is probably the most powerful tool people can have. Even if it just keeps you in a positive mood which most doctors will provide is important to recovery from a lot of diseases. It also allows you to see things much easier that are affecting your. For instance, if I am visualizing me being well after a sinus infection I can visualize and almost feel what breathing was like before. I also notice when my breathing gets better or worse and can tell what was really helping me. Crystals certainly have a lot of energy from the world, they have been used a long time. Do they really help me heal, I dont know. If someone else beleives they do and it helps her to help me, do I care if the crystal was just a placebo? Not a chance.

I have nothing against visualization. It is a great preview tool to give one an idea of different possibilities before we actually make those possibilities real with actions. What I do have a problem with is new-age pseudoscientfic approaches to visualization that merely visualizing an outcome will make it real. That is magical thinking. If you want to make something real, you have to act.

The attitude that you don’t care whether the crystals are working or not is unfortunate. Why would you use something if you don’t know if it works or not? Would you take a pill if the doctor said, "I don’t know if it works, but take it anyway’ Would you fly in a plane if the pilot said, “I don’t know if the plane is working or not, but lets fly it anyway” If one is rational, one would do something which has been shown to work, and not that which has not been shown to work.

Go to a massage and concentrate on sending your energy to that area and you get so much more results. Breathe into the area etc. Most crystal exersizes link a crystal to a certain area of hte body. They then concentrate on that crystal and that area. Should it work without a crystal. Sure. If they think it helps them more with a crystal why should I care? I own a few crystals, mostly because I think they are pretty. I do think having them to concentrate on is helpful in me focusing. Not sure if they help me other wise, but I do not care if they do or do not.

This is hokey thinking. If the crystal is adding nothing to the process, it is unnecessary. Why should we treat adults like children to get them to do something - it’s like getting a child to eat his spinach by saying, “If you eat spinach you will become like Pop-eye” If somebody will not do anything unless we give them pretty crystals to focus on, then they are obviously no better than children in maturity. I don’t think we should encourage people to be immature.

beleive that the people of quantum yoga, as most people who have a specific type of yoga they like, really beleive htat it is more beneficial for them. Probably because it is. For them. Is it necessarily best for everyone. No. Nothing is best for everyone. But they are not promising anything from their type of yoga htat other types of yoga do not provide at the same time. That most yoga practitioners do not claim to be aspiring to acheive. Marketing is all about offering a specific product to a specific user in a way that use will want the product. All yoga is offered this way. Some people enjoy Ashtanga, some enjoy Bikram, some enjoy sitting in savasana for an hour and some people will never set foot on a mat but are very committed to a non asana practice. Most do a mix of al lof the above. If this place can offer something to someone in a way that helps them see what they need to reach self realization, that does not make hte result any less. So no, I do not think that I am being irresponsible. I do think it is irresponsible to just read a website and judge an entire group of people. In fact, I think it is irresponsible to judge and entire group of people in general. People who own studios need to pay rent. Is it any more wrong than opening a shoe shop for someone who is really passionate about shoes or foot health? Is it wrong for them to sell what they think works the best? No. If it doesnt work for you dont buy it. If it doesnt work for anyone, no one will buy it and they go under. That is what business is. Not yoga. Do I not go to Bikram because I do not like his business techniques. Yes. Others dont have a problem with it, their choice. I also dont shop at certain grocery stores becaus I disagree with them, but I dont judge others who do shop there.

Again, this is hokey thinking. It is what is called sophistry in philosophy. The term comes from a type of thinking in ancient Greece where people would measure truth by their own yardstick. So everybody just did what they wanted to do and believed what they wanted to. The philosophical and subsequently the scientific method was developed to show that this is not true, there is such thing as a valid or invalid belief or valid and invalid action. It is due to this kind of new thinking we were finally able to make progress in the sciences.
The kind of thinking you evince in this quote is like a regression to pre-scientific thinking and hence antithetical to progress.

I am certainly not going to allow people to believe and do whatever they want if I don’t think it is valid. I am going to exercise my right to free speech and make it known with reasons for why I think it is invalid. If there is any validity in what I say the truth will win out. This is why the scientific method eventually wins out over religion and speculation, because it is based on hard evidence that no rational person can deny.

Quantum Yoga makes several claims to being special and hence its own brand of Yoga, but its claim to being special have nothing to do with the reasons it gives for being special: it is based on Ayurveda and quantum physics. It merely uses these as gimmicks to sell its brand of Yoga. In actual fact quantum Yoga is just a sequence of asanas. There is nothing new in it. It is all derivative stuff.

It makes you think why are so many people creating their own brand of Yoga? I mean I understand the reasons to create your own brand if you genuinely have something new to offer, but when you don’t, and are just rehashing already existing brands, that is obviously just for ones own business interests.

As a consumer of Yoga we also have a duty of ethic as a consumer. Why should we consume something that is so blatantly unethical? We should not encourage this practice by companies like Quantum Yoga of encouraging psedo scientific and hokey thinking, using quantum physics and Ayurveda as gimmicks to sell its product, and treating a serious science of health as just business.

This is hokey thinking. If the crystal is adding nothing to the process, it is unnecessary. Why should we treat adults like children to get them to do something - it’s like getting a child to eat his spinach by saying, “If you eat spinach you will become like Pop-eye” If somebody will not do anything unless we give them pretty crystals to focus on, then they are obviously no better than children in maturity. I don’t think we should encourage people to be immature.

To expand further on this point. We find that Yoga today is being marketed in all kinds of ways to make it seem hip and happening, Yoga concerts, Naked Yoga, Yoga vacations, Yoga merchandise and by marketing Yoga as an exercise and stress busting program Yoga gains mass appeal, to the point where it is even being done in Churches. The most popular brands of Yoga in the West are of course the ones that focus predominately on asanas, such as Power Yoga, Ashtanga Yoga and Bikram Yoga.

But all of this is deception, because they are not actually telling people straight up what Yoga is: It is a science of self-realization. It is a serious spiritual discipline for people who are seeking to realize their true self, to attain total liberation, enlightenment, freedom. It is an entire philosophy and way of life. It is not just asanas. It is definitely not a physical exercise or stress busting program.

Matter-consciousness dualism is not just an optional belief in Yoga. It is the fundamental assumption Yoga is based on. It is why one does Yoga and why Yoga works. If one does not accept this basic assumption, then they are not yogis i.e. somebody on the path of Yoga. Period. Just doing asanas does not make a yogi. It is the goal of Yoga which makes one a yogi. If you are seeking self-realization you are by definition a yogi.

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;73867]
Matter-consciousness dualism is not just an optional belief in Yoga. It
is the fundamental assumption Yoga is based on. It is why one does Yoga
and why Yoga works. If one does not accept this basic assumption, then
they are not yogis i.e. somebody on the path of Yoga. Period. Just doing
asanas does not make a yogi. It is the goal of Yoga which makes one a
yogi. If you are seeking self-realization you are by definition a
yogi.[/QUOTE]

Do you have any idea how pretentious, self-righteous and intolerant this
sounds? Just saying “Period.” with regard to yoga is laughable at best.
Wake up to the world, it’s complex, diverse and in flux.

So what if people do some asanas, feel better and call it yoga? Not
everyone wants to be enlightened or cares about it. I sure don’t. So
what if they come to yoga through brand X or Y?

I don’t expect anything from my practice other than calm and health.

I wrote a long post but realized it is pointless, the only thing I am countering is for everyones benefit.

I beleive in yoga but am not a dualist but still beleive in and strive towards self realization. I just do not beleive in a strict dualist theme because I beleive that we separate realities into the metaphysical and physical worlds because we cannot grasp they can exist at the same time. That my soul and my body exist in the same place at the same time in the same realm. There are a lot of yogis, buddhas and a whole branch of hinduism that do not beleive in dualism. You do not get to validate what is true and not in a world you can only see from your own very limited perspective.

“I am certainly not going to allow people to believe and do whatever they want if I don’t think it is valid.”

And here is the deal, why there is no point in debating with you. You do not get to determine what people believe. You do not allow or disallow it. You do not get to determine what is valid in other people’s lives. I believe you will never reach complete self awareness until you disattach yourself from this idea. I think you can not be attached to this and connect completely to your metaphyiscal being/self/deity (whatever form of dualism you practice). I wish you luck on your journey.

[QUOTE=zafu;73868]Do you have any idea how pretentious, self-righteous and intolerant this
sounds? Just saying “Period.” with regard to yoga is laughable at best.
Wake up to the world, it’s complex, diverse and in flux.

So what if people do some asanas, feel better and call it yoga? Not
everyone wants to be enlightened or cares about it. I sure don’t. So
what if they come to yoga through brand X or Y?

I don’t expect anything from my practice other than calm and health.[/QUOTE]

That is fine, I just don’t recognize what you are doing as Yoga. I know what Yoga is and what you are doing is not Yoga.

Wishing you the best of health :slight_smile:

I beleive in yoga but am not a dualist but still beleive in and strive towards self realization. I just do not beleive in a strict dualist theme because I beleive that we separate realities into the metaphysical and physical worlds because we cannot grasp they can exist at the same time. That my soul and my body exist in the same place at the same time in the same realm. There are a lot of yogis, buddhas and a whole branch of hinduism that do not beleive in dualism. You do not get to validate what is true and not in a world you can only see from your own very limited perspective.

Yoga is based on Samkhya, which is a dualist philosophy. Samkhya dualism is based on matter and consciousness dualism, in terms of Yoga that is the basic distinction between the observer and the observed. In Yoga the observed is the entire field of body and mind and this why all the tools we use in Yoga are about simply watching the field of the body and the mind, such as observing sensations in the body, observing the breath, observing thoughts and feelings.
The reason Yoga works is when we observe the field of the body and mind, we are able to dissociate ourselves from them because we realize it is not us. This is why in Yoga we can release traumas, blockages, emotions and thought patterns. It would be the opposite of Yoga to maintain that you are identical with them.

Vedanta is a non-dualist philosophy, because it says everything is the one singular Brahman i.e., it only admits of consciousness and nothing else. But in even Vedanta there is a matter-consciousness dualism at the relative and practical level of life. Hence why Vedanta makes use of Yoga practices.

The difference between the two philosophies is while Yoga accepts two real substances consciousness and matter; Vedanta accepts only one real substance and considers matter an illusion. Which ontology is correct is irrelevant, at the practical level both accept matter-consciousness dualism.

And here is the deal, why there is no point in debating with you. You do not get to determine what people believe. You do not allow or disallow it. You do not get to determine what is valid in other people’s lives. I believe you will never reach complete self awareness until you disattach yourself from this idea. I think you can not be attached to this and connect completely to your metaphyiscal being/self/deity (whatever form of dualism you practice). I wish you luck on your journey.

I never said I am going to determine what other people believe. You can believer whatever you want. I am free to state what I think about what you believe, and if I think it is wrong, I will let you know :slight_smile: We cannot live in a world where everybody is allowed to believe in whatever they want. If somebody wants to believe that murder is perfectly OK, then I am afraid not many are going to allow them to have that belief. Likewise, if somebody wants to believe the moon is made out of cream cheese. Again, most people will not allow this belief.

Whatever your belief, be prepared to have it tested. Not everybody is politically correct and will leave your belief unchallenged. If you believe Reiki works, then be prepared to have the belief challenged.

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;73880]Yoga is based on Samkhya, which is a dualist philosophy. Samkhya dualism is based on matter and consciousness dualism, in terms of Yoga that is the basic distinction between the observer and the observed. In Yoga the observed is the entire field of body and mind and this why all the tools we use in Yoga are about simply watching the field of the body and the mind, such as observing sensations in the body, observing the breath, observing thoughts and feelings.
The reason Yoga works is when we observe the field of the body and mind, we are able to dissociate ourselves from them because we realize it is not us. This is why in Yoga we can release traumas, blockages, emotions and thought patterns. It would be the opposite of Yoga to maintain that you are identical with them.

Vedanta is a non-dualist philosophy, because it says everything is the one singular Brahman i.e., it only admits of consciousness and nothing else. But in even Vedanta there is a matter-consciousness dualism at the relative and practical level of life. Hence why Vedanta makes use of Yoga practices.

The difference between the two philosophies is while Yoga accepts two real substances consciousness and matter; Vedanta accepts only one real substance and considers matter an illusion. Which ontology is correct is irrelevant, at the practical level both accept matter-consciousness dualism.

I never said I am going to determine what other people believe. You can believer whatever you want. I am free to state what I think about what you believe, and if I think it is wrong, I will let you know :slight_smile: We cannot live in a world where everybody is allowed to believe in whatever they want. If somebody wants to believe that murder is perfectly OK, then I am afraid not many are going to allow them to have that belief. Likewise, if somebody wants to believe the moon is made out of cream cheese. Again, most people will not allow this belief.

Whatever your belief, be prepared to have it tested. Not everybody is politically correct and will leave your belief unchallenged. If you believe Reiki works, then be prepared to have the belief challenged.[/QUOTE]

To be challenged you have to accept it. I do not accept your challenge and I can let go of that. Have a nice life.