Cults In Yoga - Siddha / Brahma Kumaris / Sahaja Yoga, etc (often non physical Yoga)

Yoga Discussion General Yoga
#125

[QUOTE=AmirMourad;56896]“I would certainly not accept a master who is unheathily obese. If they cannot even master their own health, then what will they teach me.”

That is one’s own egotism. The nature of wisdom is such, that it has very little to do with physical conditions. Whether obese or not, if one is living out of unawareness, then one is basically unhealthy. Ramana Maharishi towards the end of his life was even more unhealthy than most obese people. He could barely walk properly or raise his head. He used to walk with a limp head hanging down. But inwardly, he was as free, sane, healthy, and liberated as ever. When asked about how it was possible for him to remain so contented and yet with such a terrible physical condition, he simply replied, “You put far too much importance on the body”. [/quote]

This this is why I do not accept Ramana Maharishi as a master, and he does not make my list :wink: Somebody who does not look after their body, but rather lives in their consciousness instead, is not a very good example.

Take away the mysticification from enlightenment and you realise all that spirituality is, is being in perfect health, balance and beingness. If you are only healthy in your mind, but unhealthy in your body, you are not in perfect health.

#126

[QUOTE=AmirMourad;56897]Surya,

I am not interested in starting any cult. If even one person comes to me with a sincere desire for Truth, then I would much rather serve him than thousands of blind followers who have no interest in their own being.[/QUOTE]

If you are not interested in starting a cult then why do you record yourself giving discourses on youtube and then advertise them on forums on the internet? If you are not interested in starting cult, then why do you have a small band of members that come to see you speak in an apartment in Montreal? If you are not interested in starting a cult, then why have you told me that you have decided to postpone further spiritual training, to teach.

You say one thing, but your actions are saying another :wink:

#127

Even if thousands of thoughts arise, and they will

If there are thoughts still arising it means you have unresolved samkaras - the origin of your thoughts - which means your consciousness still has vrittis, and thus you have not achieived chit vritti nirodha - hence you are not enlightened.

So it seems you think as much as we lesser mortals do oh great one :wink:

#128

“Somebody who does not look after their body”

Certainly it would be better to have both - but not to be obese is not a pre-requisite for awakening.

“Somebody who does not look after their body, but rather lives in their consciousness instead, is not a very good example.”

It is not uncommon to find various physical problems with many masters and yogis. The reason for it is scientific. Because as one continues expanding one’s awareness, there is a growing distance between one’s consciousness and the body. The energy of one’s consciousness eventually becomes so subtle, that it wants to leave the body. So, sometimes it has been the case that some yogis have had difficulties holding onto the body, and have had to practice certain methods to keep themselves grounded. Even Gautama Buddha after his enlightenment was not intending to remain in the body, or to teach at all, he simply wanted to pass away into Maha Samadhi. But, after thinking about the situation, he decided to make an effort to try and transmit his understanding to those very few who may be capable of understanding it. In Ramana Maharishi’s case, most of his physical problems were because of the state of samadhi in which he was living, which was too intense at times for the body to handle. His samadhi recreated all of the physical symptoms of death, of which was studied by several doctors. So, there are certain kinds of samadhi which are such, that one has to postpone one’s deeper awakening if one is to continue living in the body.

In the case of Ramana Maharishi, I cannot agree with you that he was not awakened, but I can agree that his awakening was not integrated. That is why I have spoken several times before on post-enlightenment work, which is all centered around integration.

#129

Surya,

“If you are not interested in starting a cult then why do you record yourself giving discourses on youtube and then advertise them on forums on the internet?”

Because I want to assist those who are interested in coming to more awareness. And those people can be anywhere.

“If you are not interested in starting cult, then why do you have a small band of members that come to see you speak in an apartment in Montreal?”

I do not have a small band of members that come to see my in an apartment - I have people who are interested in exploring the yogic sciences come to the center in which I teach for sadhana.

“If you are not interested in starting a cult, then why have you told me that you have decided to postpone further spiritual training, to teach.”

Because if I were to focus on further development and nothing else, I would spend the rest of my life doing nothing else. That is not my intention. I find that those who are working on themselves exclusively even though they have already done sufficient work are just selfish and much more interested in their own liberation rather than helping others. And I do not see why it is not possible to do both together - to assist others and continue working upon oneself. Even these days once in a while I go through several weeks without teaching just so that I can channel my energies more into sadhana. But at the same time, I would not like to be doing nothing else but sadhana either.

#130

Surya,

When Patanjali said Yoga is stopping the modifications of the mind, he was not saying that this is something that is to be a way of life. He was simply saying that if you stop the activity of the mind and yet remain awake - then you can have a glimpse into somthing else beyond the mind. One should not misunderstand this as some kind of dogma that is against thought. In the beginning, it may be necessary to bring the mind to a stillness in order to come to know of something beyond mind, but that is only necessary in the beginning.

“it means you have unresolved samkaras - the origin of your thoughts - which means your consciousness still has vrittis, and thus you have not achieived chit vritti nirodha - hence you are not enlightened.”

What one is calling samskaras are necessary for life, and there are even samskaras which assist the expansion of consciousness. Every time one has a glimpse of silence, it leaves a trace in the mind. With enough traces, certain tendencies are created which enable a person to become awakened or to integrate one’s awakening. What happens to some yogis who have decided to remain in the body is that they have decided consciously to keep several samskaras working, otherwise they will just leave the body.

#131

Certainly it would be better to have both - but not to be obese is not a pre-requisite for awakening.

But what is this awakening you speak of? It sounds a bit relative. Is awakening a relative state or is awakening an absolute state?

It is not uncommon to find various physical problems with many masters and yogis. The reason for it is scientific… So, sometimes it has been the case that some yogis have had difficulties holding onto the body, and have had to practice certain methods to keep themselves grounded. Even Gautama Buddha after his enlightenment was not intending to remain in the body, or to teach at all, he simply wanted to pass away into Maha Samadhi

If you have difficulty on holding onto your body then you have surely not reached the goal of Yoga which is full mastery of your mind-body system. Why do you want achieve full mastery? For service to humanity. Somebody who has a better mind-body system is in a better position to serve humanity. So what your examples tell me about these certain masters was that they were not fully enlightened beings, just relatively enlightened. The chances are they reincarnated again :wink:

There is a better explanation I have heard for why masters can still suffer from diseases, engage in elicit actions(such as sexual deviancy, spiritual arrogance) and this because of their samskaras. They catalyse the release of their samkaras through their yoga practice and end up experiencing many of them in this life alone, which otherwise may take several lifetimes to release. However, these diseases arise naturally, not out of their current habits.

In the case of Shri Mataji she is unhealthy obese not out of any natural reason, but of out her extravagent habits of eating. It is reported she eats a lot and has very expensive tastes. She also does not do any exercise. This clearly indicates something who does not have control over their mind-body system. If you had control on your mind-body system, you would not develop such greed.

#132

I do not have a small band of members that come to see my in an apartment - I have people who are interested in exploring the yogic sciences come to the center in which I teach for sadhana.

This is what we call cults. You have a tiny cult right now. So although you say you have no intention to start a cult, that is exactly what you have done. Your further actions of recording yourself giving discourses on youtube and going on on forums and posting links to them, and you telling me here that you are looking for people who have a sincere interest in awakening and you have postponed your spiritual training to help others, clearly demonstrate you are starting a cult and want to expand it.

You are going the route that Shri Mataji, Mukundanada and Osho went. In fact there are thousands going the same route. But at the moment you are a nobody.

There is a bit of a mismatch between your actions and words. Something most mortals do :wink:

#133

“But what is this awakening you speak of? It sounds a bit relative. Is awakening a relative state or is awakening an absolute state?”

Yes, it is relative in that it is just a useful idea. As far as I am concerned, even enlightenment is another idea that is to be emptied out, it is more or less meaningless. Many masters have tried to define it and have given it their own definition, but I do not see that it is something that can be defined. But it is a word which is necessary. What has been called “enlightenment” has different depths and intensities - from just having a glimpse into one’s true nature - which is not a total transformation, to different kinds of integration with one’s true nature.

“If you have difficulty on holding onto your body then you have surely not reached the goal of Yoga which is full mastery of your mind-body system.”

That one can attain “full mastery” over one’s mind and body is an illusion. Because one is not in control of the source of one’s existence. If one is not even in control of the source of existence, then there is no question of being in control of anything that arises out of it. But, it can seem that way in the same way that a person who is performing archery may think that he is in control of the bow and the arrow, even though he is not in control of the air, or the atoms of the bow, or the atoms of the arrow, but still finds a way to hit the target. The same is the case with one’s mind and body, there are so many forces beyond one’s control but that small amount which is within one’s control can be used to acheive a certain outcome. That is all. Those who are attached to the idea of control may entertain themselves with the idea that they are in control, for the sake of nourishing their ego, but that is not my understanding.

“Why do you want achieve full mastery?”

One may be tripping over one’s own feet with thinking like that. Otherwise, in the mind of an expert - his vision has become narrow. In the mind of a beginner, it is as vast as space itself.

#134

When Patanjali said Yoga is stopping the modifications of the mind, he was not saying that this is something that is to be a way of life. He was simply saying that if you stop the activity of the mind and yet remain awake - then you can have a glimpse into somthing else beyond the mind

He did not say that if you stop the activity of mind for a while, you will get a glimpse of something. He said this: yogah chit vritti nirodha, tada drasthu svarupa avasthanam. The goal of Yoga is the cessation of all modifications of consciousness, then the true witness is revealed in its true form.

In other words, the goal of Yoga is to end all the modificiations of consciousness, so that the true witness is revealed, no longer obscurbed by any modifications.

Patanjali has not said stopping a few thoughts in your mind, and then coming back to your ordinary life. He has said the cessation of every modification of consciousness from the very beginning of time. Surely, you have not ceased every modification Amir? :wink:

What one is calling samskaras are necessary for life, and there are even samskaras which assist the expansion of consciousness. Every time one has a glimpse of silence, it leaves a trace in the mind. With enough traces, certain tendencies are created which enable a person to become awakened or to integrate one’s awakening.

If you are getting thousands of thoughts in your consciousness field, you are not enlightened, in fact far from it. First, you have conscious thoughts to deal with. Then subconscious thoughts. Then unconscious thought. At every stage along the way your perception of reality will alter radically, because you are accessing a different level of the consciousness field. Now, if you are telling me you are getting thousands of conscious thoughts a day you cannot possibly be at the higher levels.

A conscious thought is a symptom that your vrittis are still dancing :wink: Thousands of them is a symptom of high vritti activity. Keep going with your Yoga.

#135

Surya,

“This is what we call cults.”

You can call it a cult if you want. In the yogic sciences, we call it a sangha.

“But at the moment you are a nobody.”

Of course, I have always been. If you think you are somebody, then perhaps there still may be some dust in ones eyes.

#136

“In other words, the goal of Yoga is to end all the modiciations of consciousness”

If you want to live a life without thoughts, then you may as well hang yourself. Even Patanjali, to write his Yoga Sutras, needed thought. He must either be deceiving you, or you must be misunderstanding him.

#137

“If you are getting thousands of thoughts in your consciousness field, you are not enlightened”

Then every master who has ever spoken or written a word must have not come to their enlightenment. All of the scriptures that you have been fond of, as well as the initiations of all the traditions, have been transmitted out of the organization of thought. Without thought you would not even be capable of sitting for meditation in the first place, eating your food, or just doing something as simple as walking from Point A to point B.

The problem is not thought, impressions, or the working of the mind - the problem is clinging to the activity of the mind. It is because one has been unable to experience the activity of the mind without becoming a slave to it, that all of this nonsense has arisen about stopping all thoughts. If just a single thought is enough to disturb your liberation, then your liberation is very fragile.

#138

Yes, it is relative in that it is just a useful idea. As far as I am concerned, even enlightenment is another idea that is to be emptied out, it is more or less meaningless. Many masters have tried to define it and have given it their own definition, but I do not see that it is something that can be defined. But it is a word which is necessary. What has been called “enlightenment” has different depths and intensities - from just having a glimpse into one’s true nature - which is not a total transformation, to different kinds of integration with one’s true nature.

Why overcomplicate it. Yoga is about upgrading consciousness, reaching higher and higher levels. Some of those who have received higher levels than us we regard as masters and they teach us to reach higher levels. At higher levels you have better control over your own mind and body system, so you are in a position to serve humanity better. These people are recognised as distinguished by their high character and sharp and focussed minds. But does this mean they have reached the goal of Yoga?

That one can attain “full mastery” over one’s mind and body is an illusion. Because one is not in control of the source of one’s existence.

Is it really? I have control over my body right now. I operate it with my will. I decide for my body. If I want my body to start walking left, it walks left. If I want it to start walking right, it goes right. If I want to breathe deep, I breath deep. If I want to breathe shallow, I breath shallow. The more aware I am the more control I gain of my body. It is true and proven in scientific studies that the higher the level of consciousness, the more one can control the body.

What we lack control of is our mind. The mind is driven by its own tendencies and we feel powerless to control what it is doing. We can have some control on the conscious mind, but we have no control on the subconscious and unconscious mind. However, it is proven again in scientific studies that at higher levels of consciousness, the more we can control the mind.

In fact Yoga is absolutely affirmative that the entire continuum of prakriti from mind to matter can come under our control. Patanjali even dedicates an entire chapter to what happens when we attain such high levels of consciousness that we have perfect control and can command prakriti to do whatever we wish. We reverse the situation from prakriti controlling us, to us controlling prakriti.

#139

If you want to live a life without thoughts, then you may as well hang yourself. Even Patanjali, to write his Yoga Sutras, needed thought. He must either be deceiving you, or you must be misunderstanding him.

Would it be safe to say you are attached to thoughts then? As you seem to suggest you would be dead without them. But Patanjali is saying the opposite, you will be more alive without them. If you are thinking about something you will always be either in the past or in the future, but not in the present. It is unnecessary mental noise.

Note the difference between thinking and willing. I am not thinking when I order my body to go left or right. I am willing it to happen. Similarly, Patanjali willed the Yoga sutras. He did not think about it. He said, I want to write sutras on Yoga, and then he ordered his mind-body system into the act of writing the sutras.

He did not have to think about it. He wrote clearly, concisely and assertively. He was instructing, not thinking.

You can live your life without a single thought. That is the ideal life, not a single thought, just constant action. In order to do this you need your senses and your mind under your control.

#140

“At higher levels you have better control over your own mind and body system”

At the “higher levels”, one should first ask whether it is necessary to control one’s mind and body.

" I have control over my body right now. I operate it with my will."

Is that really the case ? Do you operate the atoms which make the body, or the subatomic particles which make the atoms of the body ? Are you even in control of something as simple as how your blood flows through your veins ? What of the need to eat food, or the need to drink water ? Or if you cut a peice of hair, are you in control of whether it grows back or not ? If you are in control of the aging process of your cells, then why haven’t you averted death completely ? No yogi so far has managed to avoid physical death. Even more so, all of the conditions which have made life on Earth possible have much to do with the energy that travels to the Earth from the Sun. Are you in control of the Sun, or how the Earth revolves around the Sun ?

All of one’s ideas of being the one who is in control are entirely hallucinations. It implies that there is an ego which is in control. That is the problem with all of those claims that the yogi attains complete control over his mind and body - it implies that you can force everything into your ego, that your ego can have absolute power. It is fundamentally nothing more than an ego trip. Even if a yogi leaves the body at will, it is only because there are so many other forces which are supporting such a thing. Because you are capable of using certain tools which nature has given you - one is entertaining oneself with this idea that you are in control. Yes, now if you want, you are in control of moving your left hand. But if we want, we can cut it off and test your theory.

The kind of liberation which awakened ones have come into contact have nothing to do with transcending nature, and everything to do with being in tune with nature.

#141

[QUOTE=AmirMourad;56893]Seeker,
If you find that your being is fulfilled through Sahaja Yoga, then remain with it. But one should be completely straightforward with oneself and ask whether one is truly fulfilled, or whether one simply believes that one is fulfilled.[B] For this, there is no other answer except through witnessing yourself directly in daily living, seeing how you are from moment to moment.[/B] If you have enough courage, then you will see yourself as you are without any veils or decorations, without censorship, without clinging to a sense of identity. [/QUOTE]Amir,
Ocean has enormous amount of water but some people are coming only with their small cups. Divine force is fully aware of capability of each one of us and will give us amount that we can carry.

[B]Sahaja yoga is not cult, alternative medicine or method. SY is living process promised by all incarnations.[/B]

#142

[QUOTE=AmirMourad;56916]“At higher levels you have better control over your own mind and body system”

At the “higher levels”, one should first ask whether it is necessary to control one’s mind and body. [/quote]

If you do not control your mind and body, then you will simply leave it to its tendencies. It is better it is in your control, than not. Even at higher levels of consciousness you are going to have control it. At higher levels you just have more control of your mind-body system.

Nothing is going to happen, unless you will it. Your body will not go on auto pilot and go shopping for you :wink:

Is that really the case ? Do you operate the atoms which make the body, or the subatomic particles which make the atoms of the body ? Are you even in control of something as simple as how your blood flows through your veins ? What of the need to eat food, or the need to drink water ? Or if you cut a peice of hair, are you in control of whether it grows back or not ? If you are in control of the aging process of your cells, then why haven’t you averted death completely ? No yogi so far has managed to avoid physical death. Even more so, all of the conditions which have made life on Earth possible have much to do with the energy that travels to the Earth from the Sun. Are you in control of the Sun, or how the Earth revolves around the Sun ?

Nope, I am not in control of the atoms and subatomic particles. Blood flowing through my vein. Aging. The orbit of the solar system, etc. These are all processes that operate by their own tendencies. However, it is already proven that at higher levels of consciousness, things that were erstwhile outside of our control, come under our control. Involuntary body processes such as regulating the temperature of your body, heartbeat can be controlled at higher levels of consciousness. In a recent series of studies conducted by a team of Indian scientists it was shown how the yogi Prahlad Jani was able to control his urine, absorb the urine into his body and transform it. He did not eat or drink, and was kept in a lab under controlled conditions and monitor for 14 days. He claimed he was able to transform the prana into chemical energy for his body.

A century of thousands of studies in modern science as recent as 2000’s have also proven that mind has power over matter. Matter responds to mind. The mind gives the intention and matter responds.

Yoga is absolutely affirmative on the matter the entire continuum of mind-matter can come under our control. Samkhya is absolutely affirmative that the purusha can control any aspect of prakriti. Quantum physics is affirmative today that there is not a single part of this universe that this is not connected at the fundamental level. If we can control gross matter, we can control subtle matter.

#143

[QUOTE=MindNinja;56663]Seeker33,
Does Shri Mataji ever claim to have mastered physical Yoga or been very physically active in life? [/QUOTE]Incarnations does not need yoga, because they are complete. Only we need yoga, because we need to continue our evolution.

[B]?Normally I don?t tell about Myself but today he exposed me. As soon as I came I had to tell because it?s not tactful. It?s not tactful to say anything. It?s better that you discover Me than I tell you because Christ was crucified, everybody was tortured. I do not want to hamper My work because it makes no difference by telling you anything before Realization. It?s better to tell you after Realization that I am the Holy Ghost ? no doubt. I am the one about which Christ has talked.

I have told them. I had never said this on from a platform and I told. They have been telling Me, ?Mother, You must say that once.? I said, ?In America I?ll declare it.? So today I declare that: ?I am the Holy Ghost. I am the Holy Spirit who has incarnated on this Earth for your realization.? ?[/B]

Shri Mataji
New York, USA 30 September 1980

#144

Does your incarnation need dieting though :wink:

Your incarnation sure likes to tell other people she is an incarnation. She sure likes to publically shout it in the name she adopts, mother of the universe, great and respected goddess" Is there anything else we should add to this string to add to her greatness?

Do you know what they say about people who shout their own greatness?