Enthousiasm & meditation

Mindfulness Meditation
#1

What is your standpoint on enthousiasm and meditation?

I dont know why, but over the years I stopped trying to share exotic details of meditations and experiences. To me, I’ve discovered this:

  • proudness/tapping yourself on the shoulder (well done!) can be usefull, but not concerning yoga
  • the more one talks about it, the harder it gets to reach the same state
  • I dont like promoting vague information, who will be helped by vagueness?

So…what do you do? How to you ‘transform’ your enthousiasm about your practice to yourself or others.
Concerning to YS, false knowledge is knowledge acquired by or only perception, or only inference, or only testimony, or by a combination with fantasy/imagination.
So sharing vague testimonies-only (often seen in ‘spiritual marketing’) is quite deceiving no?
Do you think practitioners of Yoga should try to control their speech?

Let me introduce you a bit to this topic:

[B]A fictional situation:[/B]

Somebody walks up to you and introduces the topic: yoga/meditation/chigong/taichi etc. At some point he/she discovers you have shared interests. Sometimes, with great enthousiasm in the eyes, questions like these arrive in your ears:

“So what have you seen in your meditations, anything interesting?”
“Yes I’ve tried many special meditationtechniques from X, this person is really awesome you should see him!”
“Meditation? No, you should learn NLP man, thats much more modern”
“Have you read the law of attraction? It is so true!”
“Yes the world is gonna change, I feel it…suddenly everybody is doing meditation”
“Well, my teacher says you should sit exactly like this, with your chin here…and etc”

(and if your unlucky)
“You know, I see you are interested…so I can help you…”

[B]A random quote from Surya D.:[/B]

When one is doing so much meditation, one is bound to have experience of some exotic states, and such an existence can be quite lonely, so you will have a tendency to want to go tell others about the great experiences you are having. It’s a bit like the spiritual equivalent of “Hey guys, check this out!” There is also a tendency to want to teach your techniques, secrets and skills to others. There is very common in the spiritual community, it is full of wannabe gurus. The problem is its actually a huge obstacle on ones spiritual path because it can make one complacent - people start thinking they have arrived, are nearly arriving or reached a super advanced state - when in reality they have just taken a single step on a journey of a 1000 miles. My personal attitude is this: Until you cannot demonstrate your attainment, then keep quiet. You will demonstrate it by the powers you can show and through your behaviour. A more stricter attitude is to not announce your arrival until you have reached the final enlightenment. Imagine if the Buddha stopped his meditation on day 20 declaring his “enlightemnet” He would have been half-way away from actual enlightenment.

This is also my problem with many modern gurus - they are nowhere near the attainment of a Buddha but appoint themselves as gurus anyway, and then start collecting disciples and setting up organizations and ashrams to enlighten others.

#2

I am totally honest about what I personally [I]believe[/I] I have felt/experienced and I can say it with my heart, with that Love that’s inside me, with the strength of that conviction and force that sustains me.

For a very long time, I struggled with the concept of "Those who know, do not say and those who say, do not know’ and the role that my total, abject humility played in all of that. I didn’t know what ‘Ego’ was worse, not admitting I knew, or admitting I actually did.

Yet, if I knew about it and it was the Truth, where was that Ego?

In the end, I decided to be honest about my spiritual experiences, letting others believe whatever they would believe (as if I could actually do anything about that anyway).

It’s a very personal thing, It’s a very beautiful thing.

I have announced my ‘arrival’. I wish I would have caught the plane a lot earlier than I did, but ohwell.

Om Shanti.

#3

You see it really depends on what is meant by saying you have “arrived” If it means you have reached the goal of Yoga(enlightenment/self-realization and liberation) or a very advanced stage , then that can be demonstrated, because the attainment of the goal or being near the goal also means you will have acquired numerous siddhis and I can test if you have those siddhis or not. On the other hand, if you mean you have started to have exotic experiences, then it would more accurate to say just that “I am having xyz experience” than “I have arrived” or attained samadhi. If a traveler who is only 1/10th of the way on their journey declares “I have arrived” Then such a fool would never arrive.

Now, to be honest there really should be no problem in sharing your experiences in Yoga. Even I have shared some of my experiences. However, sometimes I share my experience with the wrong person and they attack me by either denying I had those experiences or telling I was hallucinating. This actually affects regaining that experience again, because these critics sow the seeds of doubt. Now, I cannot prove to these people whether my experience was valid or not, because it is subjective. So is there any point at all talking about my subjective experiences that I cannot demonstrate to somebody? The reason we need to ask this question is because we find the new-age community is full of people like this who share subjective experiences and delude a lot of gullible new-age people, who will virtually believe anything. I attended a mind-body new-age fair where an audience of a few hundred people were lapping up every word of these speakers who were talking about summoning unicorns, reading the Akashic records and opening up your personal star gate. The culture of subjectivity allowed these speakers to not only get away unchallenged, but even get paid for speaking nonsense!

This is why I think it is better to observe the hermitic silence about your spiritual experiences. Until you have not reached a stage where you can demonstrate your level of development, it is better to just keep quiet.

#4

The difference is, I really do not care if others attack me for what I have ‘experienced’.
I have nothing to prove to anybody and I am not asking them to believe me or anything either.

I know that for the 4th time in my life, I have had a beautiful, life changing experience that included ‘visions’ (be they a product of my ‘mind’ or whatever) and a direct relationship with a personal Divinity that went beyond the realms of physicality.

Yeah, try to ‘prove’ any of that anyway? lol

It reminds me of that story about the Monk who was initiated with his Mantra (Mantra Diksha)…we are also going back to that ‘sacred’ thing again here…

Well, his Guru told the Monk not to tell that Mantra to ANYBODY…it was for him alone and he would attain liberation from reciting it…

Well, what was the first thing that disciple did? Why, he went to the rooftops and shouted his Mantra out for all to hear…

He figured that if he could get liberated by it, then everybody should have that opportunity. He was totally overcome with compassion and love for his fellow being that he needed to share what he felt.

#5

know that for the 4th time in my life, I have had a beautiful, life changing experience that included ‘visions’ (be they a product of my ‘mind’ or whatever) and a direct relationship with a personal Divinity that went beyond the realms of physicality.

But so did Mohammed, he then went onto found a religion where this followers believed in his visions and revelations, and later used that religion to bring about death and destruction all over the world.

Not that I am saying that you are going to do the same. My point is when we share very subjective experiences that we cannot actually demonstrate the validity and properly explain of we end up creating a lot of problems.

I don’t think it is true you don’t care about others think about your experiences: The very fact you have shared your experience in the first place reveals there a subconscious intent for you to tell people about your experiences. However, it also seems to be true that you want the luxury of making claims without having to demonstrate them.

#6

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;81091]But so did Mohammed, he then went onto found a religion where this followers believed in his visions and revelations, and later used that religion to bring about death and destruction all over the world.

Not that I am saying that you are going to do the same. My point is when we share very subjective experiences that we cannot actually demonstrate the validity and properly explain of we end up creating a lot of problems.

I don’t think it is true you don’t care about others think about your experiences: The very fact you have shared your experience in the first place reveals there a subconscious intent for you to tell people about your experiences. However, it also seems to be true that you want the luxury of making claims without having to demonstrate them.[/QUOTE]

Or it could also be because my heart/soul feels like it’s just bursting to capacity right now and there was nowhere else I could go or nobody else I could tell that could possibly understand this (when it was impossible to understand anyway).

Yes, I get your point that I am still yet to lose that last vestige of Ego and that Divine Experience is totally subjective.

The only claim I am making is that I got totally lost in ‘God’. I see nothing wrong with that.

The only ‘intent’ I had was to share and I have done so. Nothing more.

Om Namah Shivaya.

#7

This is understandable, it is similar to what I described above quoted by sqz. Meditation can be a lonely activity and when we start experiencing really cool things, we want to go tell others about what we are experiencing. It’s the spiritual equivalent of “Hey guys, check this out” However, it is also a rather immature stage of our spiritual development that we feel the need to do this.
If one had really attained the advanced goals of yoga, they would feel much less need to do this, because by that time one becomes comfortable with aloneness.

Yes, I get your point that I am still yet to lose that last vestige of Ego and that Divine Experience is totally subjective.

The only claim I am making is that I got totally lost in ‘God’. I see nothing wrong with that.

But you see this is where the problem I highlighted comes to the fore: Your experience is totally subjective and there is no way you can demonstrate its validity to me. I think of many other alternative explanations for what you have labeled “divine experience” or “God”

  1. Hallucinations
  2. Self fulfilling belief
  3. Astral special effects

I have reason to doubt that you have experienced “God” or the “divine” because somebody who has experienced that would not be posting on this forum looking for people to share their experience with. They would become saints and realized souls and they would apply themselves like the Buddha to alleviating the suffering of humanity. They would also have attained many abilities and would easily be able to show to a ordinary soul like me their attainment.

I have talked to many people who claim to have communed with God, attained Samadhi, become enlightened - but do not have a single thing to show for it and a lot to show against it.

So please do not take it personal, but I have no reason to believe you have attained “God” You have had some spiritual experiences no doubt, but I have more reason to believe they were just entry level stuff, which you have exaggerated in your own mind as “God”

#8

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;81093]This is understandable, it is similar to what I described above quoted by sqz. Meditation can be a lonely activity and when we start experiencing really cool things, we want to go tell others about what we are experiencing. It’s the spiritual equivalent of “Hey guys, check this out” However, it is also a rather immature stage of our spiritual development that we feel the need to do this.
If one had really attained the advanced goals of yoga, they would feel much less need to do this, because by that time one becomes comfortable with aloneness.

But you see this is where the problem I highlighted comes to the fore: Your experience is totally subjective and there is no way you can demonstrate its validity to me. I think of many other alternative explanations for what you have labeled “divine experience” or “God”

  1. Hallucinations
  2. Self fulfilling belief
  3. Astral special effects

I have reason to doubt that you have experienced “God” or the “divine” because somebody who has experienced that would not be posting on this forum looking for people to share their experience with. They would become saints and realized souls and they would apply themselves like the Buddha to alleviating the suffering of humanity. They would also have attained many abilities and would easily be able to show to a ordinary soul like me their attainment.

I have talked to many people who claim to have communed with God, attained Samadhi, become enlightened - but do not have a single thing to show for it and a lot to show against it.

So please do not take it personal, but I have no reason to believe you have attained “God” You have had some spiritual experiences no doubt, but I have more reason to believe they were just entry level stuff, which you have exaggerated in your own mind as “God”[/QUOTE]
I know I must apply what I have experienced and maybe I am looking for a way how to.

What do you think it is that I am actually ‘claiming’ anyway?

All this ideology of ‘a claim without any proof is ubsustantiated’ is only a concept of the rational mind and you are just trying to rationalise all this.

I am speaking from a perspective of love and light. I made these posts through a wall of tears.

If you think I am just acting out of desire for Samadhi or Shiva Bhakt, I’ll leave you with that.

Goodnight, my friend.

Om Namah Shivaya.

Om Shanti, Shanti, Shanti.

#9

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;81088]

Now, to be honest there really should be no problem in sharing your experiences in Yoga. Even I have shared some of my experiences. [B][I][U]However, sometimes I share my experience with the wrong person[/U][/I][/B] and they attack me by either denying I had those experiences or telling I was hallucinating.

Now, I cannot prove to these people whether my experience was valid or not, because it is subjective. So is there any point at all talking about my subjective experiences that I cannot demonstrate to somebody?

[B][I][U]This is why I think it is better to observe the hermitic silence about your spiritual experiences.[/U][/I][/B] it is better to just keep quiet.[/QUOTE]

Hello, yes the forum account was not deleted, decided to test it and discovered these selected quoted words above so well written.

Learning it the hard way is the only way it will ever make sense to your audience.

[I]Yes this one learned that lesson and what is quoted above is quite correct.[/I]

There is a point to sharing though that has nothing to do with the New Age Fantasy type people. The problem is if it is done online in forums such as these instead of one on one face to face one can not know whom one’s audience will be.

Take for example the mistaken person that believes the EGO is to be eradicated, from that polarized false belief everything written by another is automatically discounted.

Plank in eye splinter in another’s

Surya Deva remove the plank from your own eye first before commenting on the splinter in others.

#10

[QUOTE=Seeking;81096]
There is a point to sharing though that has nothing to do with the New Age Fantasy type people. The problem is if it is done online in forums such as these instead of one on one face to face one can not know whom one’s audience will be.

Take for example the mistaken person that believes the EGO is to be eradicated, from that polarized false belief everything written by another is automatically discounted.

Plank in eye splinter in another’s

Surya Deva remove the plank from your own eye first before commenting on the splinter in others.[/QUOTE]
From what I have learned this day, you are correct. Anonymity isn’t helping here and neither is being called ‘Nobody’.

It’s only natural for you all to be rather apprehensive and skeptical about all this, about a ‘prodigal daughter returrning from so-called spiritual hiatus thinking she’s now ‘qualified’ to lecture you all on the Cosmic status-quo’. etc etc

It’s much, [I]much[/I] more than that. I have/want nothing and have nothing to gain here.

I hope I am not ‘discounting’ anybody’s views/opinions either and if I am, that is also unintentional.

However, that being said…I am a staunch Advaita Vedantist, so of course, whatever views I have about anything really is going to be rather ‘polarised’. Please forgive that.

#11

(warning: typed on iphone, strange things may happen)

Thank you very much for the replies.
I think another aspect which is also very important: who is the receiver of the information.

I mean, if one is after union between his internal and external, his spiritual experiences and other people, then i think its the duty of the sender to at least observe this. Sometimes, its better to mirror than to share experiences.
When person A would claim he/she knows the result of future event X by reading akashic records, it could be better for person B to say ‘sounds great but these akashic records are not really part of my experience, so i have to remain skeptical’

if person B would ask ‘cool! and what about event Y?’. This is indeed how religions, mediums could start from seed.

Nobody: have you ever met certain people, of whom you did not wanted to inform them about your spiritual experiences, because they did already appear not too grounded?

SR: have you ever met certain people, which made you feel comfortable sharing experiences with, knowing that they will put it in the right perspective (discriminating between fantasy/knowledge for their own uses)?

#12

[QUOTE=sqz;81099](warning: typed on iphone, strange things may happen)

Thank you very much for the replies.
I think another aspect which is also very important: who is the receiver of the information.

I mean, if one is after union between his internal and external, his spiritual experiences and other people, then i think its the duty of the sender to at least observe this. Sometimes, its better to mirror than to share experiences.
When person A would claim he/she knows the result of future event X by reading akashic records, it could be better for person B to say ‘sounds great but these akashic records are not really part of my experience, so i have to remain skeptical’

if person B would ask ‘cool! and what about event Y?’. This is indeed how religions, mediums could start from seed.

Nobody: have you ever met certain people, of whom you did not wanted to inform them about your spiritual experiences, because they did already appear not too grounded?

SR: have you ever met certain people, which made you feel comfortable sharing experiences with, knowing that they will put it in the right perspective (discriminating between fantasy/knowledge for their own uses)?[/QUOTE]
Well, first off I have to say that I blame Helena Petrovna Blavatsky for all this. lol

The conceptualisation of the ‘New-Age Guru’ started there and started to use sacred, Hindu occult references and terms to line their own pockets.

Terms like ‘Akashic Record’ and ‘Kundalini’ became everyday, ‘in the know’ buzzwords. I briefly got caught up in this when I read Sir John Woodroffe’s (Arthur Avalon’s) Serpent Power followed by The Secret Doctrine…after which, I could no longer take any of these ‘New-Age Gurus’ seriously anymore.

I much prefer ‘Gurus’ like Osho who tell us that what we are ‘seeking’ is already ‘seeking us’ and something about a goose escaping from a bottle somewhere to illustrate that point. The Tao Te Ching is also the classic textbook on Vedanta. lol

We have to get something out of the experience or it isn’t an experience.

To answer your question, ever since feeling the (for lack of better term) ‘presence of the Divine’, I have felt the need to associate with like-minded people.

Up until now, I haven’t volunteered any knowledge about my Spiritual experiences unless directly asked. I mean, one does not dance around going ‘hey, I found God’ just because one has (I mean Chaitanya Mahaprabhu can get away with this because we cannot compare ourselves to Sages like [I]that[/I] now, can we)?

However, when I start talking about Lord Shiva and Shankacharya, my experiences and feelings, I just can’t seem to stop just through all that Love alone.

Unfortunately, this also has the effect then of boring whomever listens to my ‘Spiritual Discourses’ to tears and they change the subject to the most silliest of things just to ‘change the subject’. lol

It was then I thought to myself ‘hey, better go and find that Yoga Forum you belong to and tell your story on it instead’.

So, that’s how it is.

#13

A journey to the ultimate truth is a long one, the terrain is unknown, milestones look terribly different once you reach them, there are several paths leading to the same destination, and one is likely to be lost once in a while. He/she looks for a tip from a fellow traveler who is just a few feet ahead since the ‘enlightened ones are’ far away and speak a language far different. When we opine on the Forum, give a tip or two, appreciate someone for advice, it is a sharing amongst co-travelers and not necessarily a sermon from 'holier-than-thou; more like the fresh graduates helping the faculty as the interns.

Sharing of spiritual experiences is fine as long as there is no moral to the story. Because that then is a conditioned speculation of an egoistic mind. Secondly, one who shares the experience may not be able to decypher a mindgame from a true revelation. In the early stages the unsettled mind does play many deceptive games.

Ranking of the gurus and teachers is a human weakness of the students. In the true traditions, teaching, preaching, preisting, or just practicing is an organizational portfolio. With a few glimpses, I have a reason to believe that the advanced spiritual leaders lead the spiritual movement with the same, if not better, success than many Fortune 500. In fact, they have 2 unusual hurdles: they can’t interfere in one’s karmic redemptions and secondly can’t ‘hire & fire’ but wait for the seeker to make correct choices in life to stay on the path. Most of the time they work behind the scene.

So, like teaching professionals in any field, the spiritual teachers are demonstrators, Junior and Senior teachers, lecturers, professors, HoD’s, and so on, each having a role to play. Their evaluation is better made by their peers and the seniors, and not by us. What needs to be further understood is the difference between the experiential nature of personal learning that spiritual field is and the established sructure most other learning areas have.

A spiritual teacher has to be a teacher and a student at the same time. Many amongst us view the ‘student’ in the teacher as the deficiency while evaluating the ‘teacher’ in the student, I think.

#14

All this ideology of ‘a claim without any proof is ubsustantiated’ is only a concept of the rational mind and you are just trying to rationalise all this.

You make this sound like a bad thing. This is not an ideology, but a method via which we can know the truth from the false. If I started to believe in claims without evidence, I could believe in anything from something as benign as Santa Clause is coming down the chimney with his presents to something as evil as Jews are a sub-human race. A skeptical and inquiring mind is the antidote to ignorance. Just by saying something and dressing it up with emotional language like “this is from love and light” does not mean I should accept what you state. I think it is my duty as a responsible human being to challenge your claims and demand the evidence from you.

I think humility is in order here that when we carry the burden of proof we should not be arrogant or prideful. I am not saying you are being arrogant and prideful, these words are strong and harsh to be applied to you, but there is certainly a hint of it because you don’t seem to recognize that you are one the carrying the burden of proof of here by making claims of having God-experiences, not me. I am justified to be skeptical and so would any other rational person. If you have no way of demonstrating your claims, then you should be humble and not make the claims in the first place.

When I talk about my spiritual experiences, and I rarely talk about my spiritual experiences I say them exactly as I remember them to have occurred. I do not dress it up with pretentious mystical language or hyperbole. I am very down to Earth about it. I still have the humility to recognize all my spiritual experiences so far(in this lifetime) are quaint, mere beginners gains and I have merely touched the tip of an ice berg. But I can see how these similar experiences I had with somebody less humble can become inflated into “God experience, enlightenment, self-realization” I have seen so many people in the spiritual community exaggerate basic stuff like getting more de ja vus as “psychic ability” You see far too many in this community market themselves as being special, more spiritually developed. Hence my skepticism about anybody claiming to have these experiences. I will be frank I believe most of them are deluded and many of them hoaxing it.

#15

SR: have you ever met certain people, which made you feel comfortable sharing experiences with, knowing that they will put it in the right perspective (discriminating between fantasy/knowledge for their own uses)?

Yes, I have learned to share them only with fellow spiritual seekers and those who who have genuine, sincere and innocent interest. I find them to be the most receptive and open. I have learned to recognize the energy of people like this, but of course I sometimes get it wrong. The best way of being able to tell you are speaking to a worthy person is by the spontaneity, lack of anxiety, free flowing and articulation of your expression. If it is it stunted, it is sometimes because of the energetic blocks and barriers your receiver is putting up, which you throat chakra responds to by shutting down.

If somebody scoffs at what you say, that is 9 times out of 10 a person not to share your experiences with.

#16

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;81128]You make this sound like a bad thing. This is not an ideology, but a method via which we can know the truth from the false. If I started to believe in claims without evidence, I could believe in anything from something as benign as Santa Clause is coming down the chimney with his presents to something as evil as Jews are a sub-human race. A skeptical and inquiring mind is the antidote to ignorance. Just by saying something and dressing it up with emotional language like “this is from love and light” does not mean I should accept what you state. I think it is my duty as a responsible human being to challenge your claims and demand the evidence from you.

I think humility is in order here that when we carry the burden of proof we should not be arrogant or prideful. I am not saying you are being arrogant and prideful, these words are strong and harsh to be applied to you, but there is certainly a hint of it because you don’t seem to recognize that you are one the carrying the burden of proof of here by making claims of having God-experiences, not me. I am justified to be skeptical and so would any other rational person. If you have no way of demonstrating your claims, then you should be humble and not make the claims in the first place.

When I talk about my spiritual experiences, and I rarely talk about my spiritual experiences I say them exactly as I remember them to have occurred. I do not dress it up with pretentious mystical language or hyperbole. I am very down to Earth about it. I still have the humility to recognize all my spiritual experiences so far(in this lifetime) are quaint, mere beginners gains and I have merely touched the tip of an ice berg. But I can see how these similar experiences I had with somebody less humble can become inflated into “God experience, enlightenment, self-realization” I have seen so many people in the spiritual community exaggerate basic stuff like getting more de ja vus as “psychic ability” You see far too many in this community market themselves as being special, more spiritually developed. Hence my skepticism about anybody claiming to have these experiences. I will be frank I believe most of them are deluded and many of them hoaxing it.[/QUOTE]
Okay, lets do this the other way around…how about [B]you[/B] provide the ‘evidence’ substantiating every claim you make?

I’d like to see that, instead of you asking [I]me[/I] to do so [I]constantly.[/I]

So, go on then, Prove it! :cool:

#17

All this is not my ‘ego’ talking either. Like I said before, I am totally honest and even ‘brutally honest’ sometimes myself.

So, if I am really crazy here, all I ask is that you give me 5 minutes to ‘humour it’ nothing more.

In regards to that, I admire/respect your ‘humility’ and all, but what makes you think I am insincere? How can you know/judge what I have ‘experienced’ based on two days of posting by someone of whom you know absolutely nothing whatsoever about? Even my [I]friends[/I] all usually just ignore me when I start talking about God. lmao

I don’t know why all your ‘defences’ come up as soon as this issue does. I have a feeling you have been really hurt and discouraged before by somebody you felt ‘pretended’ to be something they were not.

So before we drop all our ‘pretenses’ here, let’s just dwell on them briefly before we do.

Do you know who you are? I am not saying I do, but then again, even [I]aspiring[/I] to be something and having to ‘become’ that aspiration in order to achieve it, is still a path that leads to ultimate Non-Duality if it’s followed through to the ‘nth degree’ without desire or expectation.

Please just dwell on that for a while, then also know this:

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Marriage_of_Heaven_and_Hell

Now you know who I am and why I feel this way. I am only really trying to be nice, friendly, approachable and whatever else. That’s all.

I notice this forum is dead.

Maybe that’s because too few of the people hold too many of the ‘opinions’ around here eh?

I just call it how I see it, in [I]every[/I] regard.

#18

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;81129]
If somebody scoffs at what you say, that is 9 times out of 10 a person not to share your experiences with.[/QUOTE]
*holds up a mirror.

#19

[QUOTE=Nobody;81132]Okay, lets do this the other way around…how about [B]you[/B] provide the ‘evidence’ substantiating every claim you make?

I’d like to see that, instead of you asking [I]me[/I] to do so [I]constantly.[/I]

So, go on then, Prove it! :cool:[/QUOTE]

I am not making any claims though? You are the one talking about having god experiences as communion with your personal deity and profound love and light etc.

I said:

I am not saying you are being arrogant and prideful, these words are strong and harsh to be applied to you, but there is certainly a hint of it because you don’t seem to recognize that you are one the carrying the burden of proof of here by making claims of having God-experiences, not me.

You vindicate what I just said. I don’t think you are taking this discussion in the right spirit and have gone on the defensive, that to me itself indicates you cannot be somebody who repeatedly experiences god and love and light. Else, shouldn’t you be patient, compassionate, open, calm and tolerant? All I have said to you is that you you need to substantiate your claims, and that has been enough to stir you up and turn quite aggressive.

It lends further credence to my argument that somebody who has experienced “God” and regularly experiences profound love and light, and who describes themselves as “arrived” would not be spending their time on this forum to look for people to tell their experiences to and certainly will not be engaging in internet feuds, they would be out there in the real world dedicating themselves to eradicating suffering of the world.

I would like to give you a lesson from a leaf of Buddha’s book. When Buddha was affronted by an angry father of one his disciples, verbally abusing him and criticizing him, the Buddha just sat there calmly and unperturbed, with the same serenity on his face as before. After the father had tired from his verbal assault, the Buddha said to him handing him a fruit in his hand “If I give you this fruit, but you do not take it, is the fruit with you or me” The angry father taken aback at the question replied “If I do not take it, it would be still with you” The Buddha replied, “Yes, similarly all the personal attacks you have given to me, I did not take them, so they are still with you”

Only just recently I met a friend in the pub, and I discussed a relationship problems I was having. I was asking for his honest advice, but I had no idea that he was going to use this as an opportunity to completely destroy me. He lectured me, criticized me personally so severely that his bombast lasted for about an hour. Anybody else would have become angry and walked away or started to argue with him. But you know what? I agreed with every word he said. I saw sense in everything he had said and realized how selfish I was being in the relationship and how I did not truly deserve to be with them. Even though it was constant blows against my ego, my practice of honesty which has always been a major value in my life enabled me to judge his statements rationally and objectively and admit how wrong I was. My friend opened my eyes and because of him, I contacted my partner and apologized for what a bastard I had been, how selfish and unloving and promised that I would improve myself to be worthy of their love.

I am not bragging, but this is what you call humility and honesty :slight_smile:

#20

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;81140]I am not making any claims though? You are the one talking about having god experiences as communion with your personal deity and profound love and light etc.

I said:

You vindicate what I just said. I don’t think you are taking this discussion in the right spirit and have gone on the defensive, that to me itself indicates you cannot be somebody who repeatedly experiences god and love and light. Else, shouldn’t you be patient, compassionate, open, calm and tolerant? All I have said to you is that you you need to substantiate your claims, and that has been enough to stir you up and turn quite aggressive.

It lends further credence to my argument that somebody who has experienced “God” and regularly experiences profound love and light, and who describes themselves as “arrived” would not be spending their time on this forum to look for people to tell their experiences to and certainly will not be engaging in internet feuds, they would be out there in the real world dedicating themselves to eradicating suffering of the world.

I would like to give you a lesson from a leaf of Buddha’s book. When Buddha was affronted by an angry father of one his disciples, verbally abusing him and criticizing him, the Buddha just sat there calmly and unperturbed, with the same serenity on his face as before. After the father had tired from his verbal assault, the Buddha said to him handing him a fruit in his hand “If I give you this fruit, but you do not take it, is the fruit with you or me” The angry father taken aback at the question replied “If I do not take it, it would be still with you” The Buddha replied, “Yes, similarly all the personal attacks you have given to me, I did not take them, so they are still with you”

Only just recently I met a friend in the pub, and I discussed a relationship problems I was having. I was asking for his honest advice, but I had no idea that he was going to use this as an opportunity to completely destroy me. He lectured me, criticized me personally so severely that his bombast lasted for about an hour. Anybody else would have become angry and walked away or started to argue with him. But you know what? I agreed with every word he said. I saw sense in everything he had said and realized how selfish I was being in the relationship and how I did not truly deserve to be with them. Even though it was constant blows against my ego, my practice of honesty which has always been a major value in my life enabled me to judge his statements rationally and objectively and admit how wrong I was. My friend opened my eyes and because of him, I contacted my partner and apologized for what a bastard I had been, how selfish and unloving and promised that I would improve myself to be worthy of their love.

I am not bragging, but this is what you call humility and honesty :)[/QUOTE]
If I could find a way to ‘prove’ this to you that would transcend [B]both[/B] the virtual worlds here, trust me, I would. :slight_smile:

I am only trying to get you to drop your mind and open your heart and I have been the whole thread.

So, I shall leave you with the immortal words of The Joker - “Why so serious?” and wonder what would happen if you ever met a [I]real[/I] ‘religious troll’.

I have already swallowed enough of whatever ‘false ego’ I had to say ‘okay, I have just opened my Heart Chakra. Nothing more’.

Compromising in love and light? I’m pretty good at that, so…

Peace out.

Aum Namah Shivaya