Enthousiasm & meditation

Mindfulness Meditation
#21

Thank you, but I am not about to drop my mind, as I need my mind to make correct judgements. It is obvious why you would want people to drop their mind, because you want the luxury of making claims and not having them tested. You are making rather extraordinary claims that you commune regularly with God, that you have transcended the human condition and now live in the divine condition, that the very last vestiges of ego you have eradicated.

Sorry, I cannot let you get away with making these claims. I challenge them and refute them for the sake of what is true. I also think that what you present here is a much wider and bigger problem not to be taken lightly - the new age community, which you seem to be an obvious member of is full of people who make claims like you, they use it to market themselves as special for personal gain, fame and business - they sell a culture of subjectivity and they stupefy people and they bring down the quality of spirituality and give it a bad name. This is why I think we need professional spiritual regulation - so people do not get the luxury of making claims without proof and evidence.

We need to do a clean up of the spiritual field by getting rid of the mentalities that promote stupidity, superstition and pseudoscience. We need to make the spiritual field more professional and academic so it is taken seriously. This will not be possible as long as we have the new-age brigade associating itself with it.

#22

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;81154]Thank you, but I am not about to drop my mind, as I need my mind to make correct judgements. It is obvious why you would want people to drop their mind, because you want the luxury of making claims and not having them tested. You are making rather extraordinary claims that you commune regularly with God, that you have transcended the human condition and now live in the divine condition, that the very last vestiges of ego you have eradicated.

Sorry, I cannot let you get away with making these claims. I challenge them and refute them for the sake of what is true. I also think that what you present here is a much wider and bigger problem not to be taken lightly - the new age community, which you seem to be an obvious member of is full of people who make claims like you, they use it to market themselves as special for personal gain, fame and business - they sell a culture of subjectivity and they stupefy people and they bring down the quality of spirituality and give it a bad name. This is why I think we need professional spiritual regulation - so people do not get the luxury of making claims without proof and evidence.

We need to do a clean up of the spiritual field by getting rid of the mentalities that promote stupidity, superstition and pseudoscience. We need to make the spiritual field more professional and academic so it is taken seriously. This will not be possible as long as we have the new-age brigade associating itself with it.[/QUOTE]
You still do not get it at all, do you?

You think I am being ‘aggressive’ and ‘opinionated’ or whatever. I really am not.

From the outset, all I wanted to do was to be friendly and nice. I was trying to help you, but you obviously don’t need my help. You are doing a good enough job on your own.

You just have so many expectations of the way you think everything [I]should[/I] be, then when they are not, you get really pissed off about it.

If you think ‘oh we can’t have this’…how are you going to stop me?

If you think I am only here to cause trouble or whatever, please report me to your administrators, you being ‘[B]forum police[/B]’ and all.

I expected too much expecting you (or anybody else) to be ‘open’ about all this.

I am only wasting my time here, aren’t I?

Goodbye and good luck.

Aum Namah Shivaya

#23

If you think ‘oh we can’t have this’…how are you going to stop me?

I cannot stop you from making these claims, but I can certainly challenge your claims and expose the shortcomings in them. It will not go amiss on the discerning reader that not you did you fail to substantiate your claim, you became aggressive and emotional when asked to do so and resorted to endless rhetoric, and you are somebody who claims to have “transcended the human condition, living in the divine condition, regularly in communion with God and having eradicated the last vestiges of ego” :wink:

My job here is done

#24

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;81157]I cannot stop you from making these claims, but I can certainly challenge your claims and expose the shortcomings in them. It will not go amiss on the discerning reader that not you did you fail to substantiate your claim, you became aggressive and emotional when asked to do so and resorted to endless rhetoric, and you are somebody who claims to have “transcended the human condition, living in the divine condition, regularly in communion with God and having eradicated the last vestiges of ego” :wink:

My job here is done[/QUOTE]
When it all boils down to it, we are all human and all have human failings despite our level of advancement.

Mine, is not being able to just let something go when I tenaciously dig my teeth in…yours too, I guess.

Probably the reason why we annoy each other so much is because we are so alike. lulz

I will accept your challenge though (although I don’t know how you want me to prove something I haven’t [B]already[/B] proven to you, but you were too wrapped up in yourself to notice it…I’ll never know).

Just because I actually [I]do[/I] have a 'relationship with my personal ‘God of choice’ that I wouldn’t expect you could possibly understand (when it would be beyond the scope of your ability to do so anyway) it doesn’t mean I have become this ‘angel beyond human condition’ or whatevers.

We all have to take a shit somewhere. Some do this in a toliet…others do it online…

You are still going on with all this ‘proof’ stuff anyway saying ‘It’s easy for you to tell me you have ‘seen God’ if you cannot prove it’.

What are you hoping to achieve here? expose me as a ‘fraud’ a ‘charlitan’ for doing nothing more than saying: ‘the key to all this is using your heart and not your head to understand it’? (but then again, THAT is a concept you will never be able to understand, I am afraid).

So even if I [I]were[/I] God, you wouldn’t be able to recognise me.

Oh and cool, I must congratulate you on doing a very fine, ego-less ‘job’ there too. :roll:

#25

When it all boils down to it, we are all human and all have human failings despite our level of advancement.

Oh you are human now again are you? Just a few hours ago you had “transcended the human condition and were living in the divine condition” :wink:

You have taken this discussion in the wrong spirit and now you are just producing endless rhetoric. The point I was making is very simple, you cannot demonstrate subjective claims, therefore you will always carry the burden of proof for these claims. It is better remaining silent then on such claims. It is wrong, in my opinion, to state claims to others without giving evidence. We should remain silent on that which we cannot prove or express it with utmost humility.

I have nothing personal against you, but I was showing you how easy it is for me to refute you when you make such claims. You have no way of proving to me any of these experiences happen to you, and you have shown exactly how precarious your position is by showing your frustration. In the end you have just resorted to the typical new age cop out, “Oh, you will not understand, your heart is not open”

#26

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;81160]Oh you are human now again are you? Just a few hours ago you had “transcended the human condition and were living in the divine condition” :wink:

You have taken this discussion in the wrong spirit and now you are just producing endless rhetoric. The point I was making is very simple, you cannot demonstrate subjective claims, therefore you will always carry the burden of proof for these claims. It is better remaining silent then on such claims. It is wrong, in my opinion, to state claims to others without giving evidence. We should remain silent on that which we cannot prove or express it with utmost humility.

I have nothing personal against you, but I was showing you how easy it is for me to refute you when you make such claims. You have no way of proving to me any of these experiences happen to you, and you have shown exactly how precarious your position is by showing your frustration. In the end you have just resorted to the typical new age cop out, “Oh, you will not understand, your heart is not open”[/QUOTE]
I was always ‘human’, even though I do have those moments where I despise my own species (that I am trying desperately hard to get rid of, trust me!) :wink:

Anyway, all I ask you to do is please re-read this thread with an open mind and heart if you can do that. The ‘discerning reader’ [I]will[/I] know ‘what’s what’.

At no time was my intent ‘agressive’ or ‘emotional’. I never disrespected you or anything (despite you creating numerous allegations to the contrary).

Since the very beginning, I have used my own beliefs to justify themselves. I have shown you this over and over.

I am NOT asking you to believe what I do…try and co-erce or convince you in any way as to the ‘authenticity’ of anything you may see as a ‘claim’.

I am not trying to be anybody’s ‘guru’ or even have any specific agenda for this.

All this ‘rhetoric’ you claim I am creating, well, you are (I realise that’s a total enigma within itself).

See this for what it truly is, I am just amusing myself until such times as you totally surrender your mind and ego.

'tis a folly, I realise that now, but cannot blame one for trying it I guess.

Aum Namah Shivaya

#27

I guess I should also offer up a bit of background as how to ‘New Age’ I am actually [I]not.[/I]

I received my training as a qualified Yoga and Meditation instructor under Swami Chidananda in Rishikesh.

I know that has absolutely no bearing on the matter at all (well, it may have) and I have also read Swami Shivananda’s autobiography ‘From Man To God Man’ cover to cover…over and over, so yes, I [I]do[/I] have much respect and love for my teachers and yours…all those of yore.

I [I]never[/I] do anything without acknowledging that and those who taught me, so I can see your point.

I can now also see theirs.

#28

I received my training as a qualified Yoga and Meditation instructor under Swami Chidananda in Rishikesh.

Lol, that is a typical thing a new-ager does - a trip to Rishikesh to do a teacher training course. Indians are clever, you will find hundreds of different centers in Rishikesh catering to these new age Westerners so they can feel like they have become “qualified” Yoga and mediation teachers :wink:

#29

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;81166]Lol, that is a typical thing a new-ager does - a trip to Rishikesh to do a teacher training course. Indians are clever, you will find hundreds of different centers in Rishikesh catering to these new age Westerners so they can feel like they have become “qualified” Yoga and mediation teachers ;)[/QUOTE]
Why is it that I am the one feeling like I am being trolled now?

I give up. lol

#30

No dear, it is not trolling. I am exposing here a wider problem which has plagued Yoga in modern times, which it has to be said is mainly how Western people appropriate Yoga, Ayurveda, Vedanta and related systems. The majority of the new-age community are made of these Western people who pretend they are spiritual now, or even enlightened because they have done a certificate course in Yoga or Ayurveda in Rishikesh; because they have lived in India with the natives helping out with NGO’s, or because they have been initiated by a Guru.

I take my spirituality very seriously. I am one of the few whose actually made it a point to study the primary texts from the Yoga/Vedic tradition, to study all related systems of philosophy and its history from the Yogic point of view. I have fully immersed myself in its study for now more than 10 years. I have even spent 6 months in India exploring various Yoga and Vedanta paths, consulting with gurus, pandits and swamis. So I do not appreciate the average superficial new-age Westerner, pretending they are spiritual or a yogi, when they have not put any hard work at all into their Yoga - they treat Yoga like another lifestyle choice or a commodity.

This does not apply to all Western spiritual seekers, because there are many genuine ones as well. I am talking more about the average Western seeker.

#31

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;81175]No dear, it is not trolling. I am exposing here a wider problem which has plagued Yoga in modern times, which it has to be said is mainly how Western people appropriate Yoga, Ayurveda, Vedanta and related systems. The majority of the new-age community are made of these Western people who pretend they are spiritual now, or even enlightened because they have done a certificate course in Yoga or Ayurveda in Rishikesh; because they have lived in India with the natives helping out with NGO’s, or because they have been initiated by a Guru.

I take my spirituality very seriously. I am one of the few whose actually made it a point to study the primary texts from the Yoga/Vedic tradition, to study all related systems of philosophy and its history from the Yogic point of view. I have fully immersed myself in its study for now more than 10 years. I have even spent 6 months in India exploring various Yoga and Vedanta paths, consulting with gurus, pandits and swamis. So I do not appreciate the average superficial new-age Westerner, pretending they are spiritual or a yogi, when they have not put any hard work at all into their Yoga - they treat Yoga like another lifestyle choice or a commodity.

This does not apply to all Western spiritual seekers, because there are many genuine ones as well. I am talking more about the average Western seeker.[/QUOTE]
Guess what then? I am not your ‘average Western seeker’ either because I have done all those things too.

Like I said before (and [I]many[/I] times before), you are judging me, knowing nothing about me.

Also, if you know all that already, you will also know there are ‘Spiritual Lineages’ among teachers in India. Not all are your 'average, sneaky Indian ‘Guru’ either.

I actually had to check my ego there briefly before I got a bit angry at you for saying that about my teacher.

Also, if you will please notice, I have honestly admitted to doing nothing more here than inadvertantly opening my Heart Chakra (many posts ago), yet you are still continuing on with this.

I am bored anyway. I thought talking to myself would be more challenging than this. :stuck_out_tongue:

#32

So, what about another little ‘instalment’ of it then?

Not only did I spend years in India studying Sanskrit, Yoga and Meditation, I actually married an Indian Brahmin Priest (and stayed married to one for 17 years).

I learned all of the Mantras, Hawan, Pooja, Aarti…I mean, I was dragged along to these things 2-3 times a week out of my Dharmic Duty, you know?

At first, I really liked it (because I have always loved Lord Shiva), then I looked around and saw that it was only an excuse for the ladies to dress up in expensive silk sarees and wear tons of make-up, gold jewelry and just gossip about each other to each other ‘behind each other’s back’. lulz

The men would all just want to get it all over and done with asap, so they could talk about politics and drink Kava.

I was totally destroyed inside and it took me a very long time to recover from that experience (10 years).

I think, from this, we are going about the same thing, but in different ways…a ‘reformation’ of sorts.

Now you know just a little bit more of the ‘tip of the iceberg’ which is me. There is much more to this that includes 9 rounds of Surya Namaskar every morning and evening as well as certain Kriya practices…I really should get back into doing some of that…

Aum Suryaye Namah.

#33

In that case my apologies are due. You have actually worked hard and involved yourself in the authentic tradition. But I do feel how you portray yourself in your writing here does you a disservice, because you sound like a typical Western new ager, you know with this “Open your heat chakra, this is from love and light, drop your mind, don’t be rational” business. If you genuinely have a background in the Indic tradition you would not oppose a skeptical and inquiring mind which demands evidence. It has been the tradition of Indian civilization from the very beginning to be rigorously scientific, to demand evidence for every claim. I am just carrying on that tradition. Recall what the Buddha said, “Do not accept anything I say, do your own investigations by using your own observation and reasoning, and if it passes this test, only then accept it”

#34

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;81180]In that case my apologies are due. You have actually worked hard and involved yourself in the authentic tradition. But I do feel how you portray yourself in your writing here does you a disservice, because you sound like a typical Western new ager, you know with this “Open your heat chakra, this is from love and light, drop your mind, don’t be rational” business. If you genuinely have a background in the Indic tradition you would not oppose a skeptical and inquiring mind which demands evidence. It has been the tradition of Indian civilization from the very beginning to be rigorously scientific, to demand evidence for every claim. I am just carrying on that tradition. Recall what the Buddha said, “Do not accept anything I say, do your own investigations by using your own observation and reasoning, and if it passes this test, only then accept it”[/QUOTE]
I know right?

Do you know why I got divorced? (one of the reasons anyway)?

It’s because the whole ‘spiritual focus’ of our relationship had changed. At first, it was all about studying and learning together…growing in the light of the Divine (he is from the Vaishnav tradition)…

After a few years, it became “lets see how much money, rice and milk we got from Puja this week”. He became very greedy.

I had enough of living off other people’s ‘charity’ (I guess that was also an ego thing too), so I went out and got a job. He didn’t like that.

In the end, I became (as most Bramin wives do) a ‘token wife’. All I was wanted for was to cook, clean, raise kids and go to all the Pujas with him, trying to be his ‘model Hindu Wife’. The strain just got too much.

To make it worse, I rebelled against the [I]whole thing[/I] then, by drinking alcohol, eating red meat, taking drugs, smoking cigarettes, gambling… I wanted to sin and sin [B]bad[/B] (good name for a sailor).

Yes, I do have a strange way of putting things I guess, don’t I? Blame the internet for that.

It was also partly the reason why a lot of those misunderstandings occurred before.

Try this again?

Aum Namah Shivaya

#35

So, all this went down until very recently, when I heard a faint voice inside me say:
“hey there, remember me? I shall ask you again, what the hell did [I]I[/I] ever do back then to piss you off?”

…and so, here we are now.

#36

I am sorry to hear about your marriage problems and divorce. It is unfortunate, but an inevitable reality that our partner will change over the course of time. We all start with the honeymoon period where everything seems to be great, and then over time cracks start to appear and we realize we are no longer with the same person we married. This is why every marriage has to be worked on to ensure harmony in the relationship.

Both you and your husband have a dharma to ensure the harmony of your marriage and your household. It is in fact you dharma as the wife to cook, clean, raise the kids, manage the household and assist your husband in the ceremonies. This is a difficult concept for a Western woman to accept, and this is why intercultural marriages between Indian and Western people can be difficult to maintain. My ex girlfriend was very staunchly Western and highly critical of Indian culture, she had already told me that she did not want to live together with my mother, not understanding that Indian people do not desert their parents but rather consider it their duty to look after them in their old age. We clashed everyday virtually, and eventually we realized that there cannot be a future together and ended the relationship.

Now, please do not take it is male chauvanism that I am stipulating certain duties for you to follow as the wife, because it is not only you but your husband who also has duties. His duty is to work hard and earn a living, to give you his earnings and let you manage the financial and administrative side, to love you and to give you gifts, jewelry and take you out. Your pleasure, security and happiness should be important to him.

Dharma of course is not just limited to married couples. The is also a dharma of the child to his mother and his father; of a student to his guru; of a friend to his friend. The aim of dharma is to ensure there is harmony. When we do not fulfill our duties, that is when conflicts start and relationships start to suffer. Your actions of getting a job, drinking, doing drugs etc went against your dharma and this is why your relationship ended. However, I think that you probably wanted the relationship to end anyway at this stage.

#37

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;81199]I am sorry to hear about your marriage problems and divorce. It is unfortunate, but an inevitable reality that our partner will change over the course of time. We all start with the honeymoon period where everything seems to be great, and then over time cracks start to appear and we realize we are no longer with the same person we married. This is why every marriage has to be worked on to ensure harmony in the relationship.

Both you and your husband have a dharma to ensure the harmony of your marriage and your household. It is in fact you dharma as the wife to cook, clean, raise the kids, manage the household and assist your husband in the ceremonies. This is a difficult concept for a Western woman to accept, and this is why intercultural marriages between Indian and Western people can be difficult to maintain. My ex girlfriend was very staunchly Western and highly critical of Indian culture, she had already told me that she did not want to live together with my mother, not understanding that Indian people do not desert their parents but rather consider it their duty to look after them in their old age. We clashed everyday virtually, and eventually we realized that there cannot be a future together and ended the relationship.

Now, please do not take it is male chauvanism that I am stipulating certain duties for you to follow as the wife, because it is not only you but your husband who also has duties. His duty is to work hard and earn a living, to give you his earnings and let you manage the financial and administrative side, to love you and to give you gifts, jewelry and take you out. Your pleasure, security and happiness should be important to him.

Dharma of course is not just limited to married couples. The is also a dharma of the child to his mother and his father; of a student to his guru; of a friend to his friend. The aim of dharma is to ensure there is harmony. When we do not fulfill our duties, that is when conflicts start and relationships start to suffer. Your actions of getting a job, drinking, doing drugs etc went against your dharma and this is why your relationship ended. However, I think that you probably wanted the relationship to end anyway at this stage.[/QUOTE]
Even though I ‘knew what I was in for’, the older my ex got, the more rigid his views got or maybe the more liberal mine became…maybe it was a bit of both.

I guess the ‘honeymoon period’ in marriage wasn’t the only one I was missing.

Eventually, whatever ‘experiences’ I had back then ceased with the birth of my first child, as they will inevitably do.

Maybe I just wanted to be part of all those [I]ancient[/I] Hindu beliefs/cultures that was so much a part of my young adulthood.

The Hinduism in Bali, Java and Malaysia is a far different ‘kettle of fish’ than it’s Indian counterpart…even the religions of South India and Tamil Nadu are different (being involved in Lingayat culture, as I also was for a very long time).

I just wanted to get back to that side of it…the [I]familiar[/I] side of it. I had enough of pomp, cerrmony and circumstance. Yes, I also had a bit of extra Karma to burn too, I guess so.

That’s what everybody else said about my ‘fall from grace’ anyway.

#38

Oh yeah…my mum is 75, has had massive strokes and paralysed. I look after her because it is my dharma.

There’s just a certain degree of ‘religious arrogance’ that crept into the marital relationship over time.

Give me credit, I lasted [I]17[/I] years, but it was ‘over’ at about the 13yr mark and we just fulfilled our obligations to dharma until the children grew up.

I am just glad to be feeling [I]something[/I] spiritually after all this time and I do not really care what that is. I am just happy (and amazed) it’s still alive after all that anyway. lulz

#39

Each is on their own level.

Your eyebrow raise at ones level is. Who cares?

#40

Maybe I just wanted to be part of the ancient Hindu beliefs/culture that was so much a part of my young adulthood.

The Hinduism in Bali, Java and Malaysia is a far different ‘kettle of fish’ than it’s Indian counterpart…even the religions of South India and Tamil Nadu are different (being involved in Lingayat culture, as I was).

I wanted to get back to that side of it…the familiar side of it. I had enough of pomp, cerrmony and circumstance. Yes, I also had a bit of extra Karma to burn too, I guess so.

Unfortunately, modern day India is not ancient India. The India that was steeped in dharmic culture, Yoga, Vedanta and Sanskrit started dying 5000 years ago with the onset of the Kaliyuga age. At that time India was 80% bigger than it is today and was a global center of learning, wisdom, culture science and technology. Around 600BCE or so India fell quite badly to foreign invasions from the Persians, the Greeks, the Huns, the Scythians, the Kushans - it was in fact a constant war zone and fragmented into hundreds of kingdoms constantly at war with each other. Then by the later middle ages the Mughals subjugated much of India, destroyed hundreds of thousands of its temples, burnt down its universities and schools. Then in the modern age what was left of India’s dharmic culture was eradicated and its memory erased by the British by abolishing its traditional education system and replacing Sanskrit with English.
The current generations of Indians are only Indians in name, but otherwise there is nothing remotely Indian about them.

I made the same naive mistake as you did of thinking I will be able to find the glorious ancient India still in India, perhaps in the Himalayas. Unfortunately the cynicism of all Indians I met who I asked about for genuine gurus and spiritual masters was correct, they are too rare to find, in fact close to impossible to find. As I said I consulted with many swamis, gurus, pandits and did not find a single one worthy - I found many charlatans, many corrupt ones and many naive ones. Even the Sivananda Ashram where I expected to find genuine masters, I instead found dogmatic monks - I might as well had been in Church :wink:

After returning from India I made my decision that I will do this by myself without any formal guru. I took the advise of one sadhu I met in India who told me to accept the scriptures as my guru, all the techniques and knowledge I need to know is in the scripture - I don’t need a guru. He also added, that ethereal masters will help me and nudge me along the way, perhaps by not making them visible to me, but subtly pushing me along as long as I put the sincere effort in.