Existence Of The Soul


#1

Does the soul exist?
If human beings have a “soul” where is it within the human being? I have heard people say the soul is located near the heart. Can anyone shed some light on this?


#2

I believe we have a soul. There will be varying ideas as to what soul is and where it resides. Some may think of it as an astral body, some may think of it as being a point of spiritual light in the forehead.

Until you have reached a higher level of consciousness you may not be able to perceive the “soul”. Perhaps one needs to evolve more along the spiritual path.
Just my thoughts on this----that’s all. :smiley:


#3

Define “soul” please then I will respond more fully.


#4

[QUOTE=Juniper;74974]If human beings have a “soul” where is it within the human being?[/QUOTE]

Perhaps the absolute is having a human experience not a human having an absolute experience, just saying.


#5

[QUOTE=ray_killeen;75038]Perhaps the absolute is having a human experience not a human having an absolute experience, just saying.[/QUOTE]

Ray, This is great! Perhaps it is the Absolute having a human experience and not the human! :smiley:


#6

Melchizedek,

Soul— the part that is suppose to be eternal, survive past physical death.


#7

When we say soul it can mean two different things: A spiritual or energy double that lives on after physical death and travels to other realms or lingers here as a ghost or it can mean ones absolute and true self. In Sanskrit to distinguish the two, two words are used: Sukshmasharia(subtle body) and Atman(the absolute or higher self)

The subtle body does have a location, because it is made up of matter like the physical body is, so it is located in space and time. It is bound up like the physical body is by space, time and causation. It is therefore finite, limited and not eternal. It is said in Yoga that the subtle body is much longer lasting than the physical body, but it is perishable just like the physical body. It will one day die like the physical body dies.

It also said in Yoga the subtle body can be made visible under special circumstances. For example we know that some people can see ghosts sometimes or ghost activity can be picked up on electronic devices. It is known by OBE experts that electric fields can be used to trap the subtle body.

On the other hand, the atman can never be made visible, because it is the power that makes visibiliy possible. It cannot ever be made an object of ones study, because it is the power that makes studying possible. Trying to get proof one ones Atman is like a dog trying to chase its own tail. It is impossible to observe the observer. The atman has no location, because it is not made up of matter. It is outside of space, time and causation. It is infinite, unlimited and eternal/timeless. It has no beginning or end.


#8

Soul, spirit, whatever word one likes to use could be considered that which was never born and will never die, timeless/space less, the human experience may simply be a spec in this awareness manifested as human consciousness, therefore when the body/mind falls there is no transcending of spirit?we?re already there, now, nothing to wait for?lift the veils of maya and experience it yourself, look past the poetry of the mind.


#9

Hmm, “the human experience may simply be a spec in this awareness manifested as human consciousness, when body/mind falls there is no transcending of spirit----- we are already there–now—nothing to wait for…” interesting as this is the direction my meditations seem to be taking me.

As far as the existence of the subtle body I have not yet experienced an OBE so I am unable to prove its existence. The experience of this would give proof of a subtle body.


#10

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;75050]When we say soul it can mean two different things: A spiritual or energy double that lives on after physical death and travels to other realms or lingers here as a ghost or it can mean ones absolute and true self. In Sanskrit to distinguish the two, two words are used: Sukshmasharia(subtle body) and Atman(the absolute or higher self)

The subtle body does have a location, because it is made up of matter like the physical body is, so it is located in space and time. It is bound up like the physical body is by space, time and causation. It is therefore finite, limited and not eternal. It is said in Yoga that the subtle body is much longer lasting than the physical body, but it is perishable just like the physical body. It will one day die like the physical body dies.

It also said in Yoga the subtle body can be made visible under special circumstances. For example we know that some people can see ghosts sometimes or ghost activity can be picked up on electronic devices. It is known by OBE experts that electric fields can be used to trap the subtle body.

On the other hand, the atman can never be made visible, because it is the power that makes visibiliy possible. It cannot ever be made an object of ones study, because it is the power that makes studying possible. Trying to get proof one ones Atman is like a dog trying to chase its own tail. It is impossible to observe the observer. The atman has no location, because it is not made up of matter. It is outside of space, time and causation. It is infinite, unlimited and eternal/timeless. It has no beginning or end.[/QUOTE]

I applaud your first paragraph. Thou hast written nicely.

one’s own self (atman) is indeed visible, to ones self, via the mind, like a reflection. I have done it - several times, in different ways, seen myself (direct perception) , no big whoop. I reasoned on what I was witnessing (inference), and checked my experience with scripture (testimony of the wise.)

So I know.


#11

There is an interesting reference in the Mundaka Upanisad (3.1.9) about the location and measurement of the soul:

eso 'nur atma cetasa veditavyo
yasmin pranah pancadha samvivesa
pranais cittam sarvam otam prajanam
yasmin visuddhe vibhavaty esa atma

“The soul is atomic in size and can be perceived by perfect intelligence. This atomic soul is floating in the five kinds of air (prana, apana, vyana, samana and udana), is situated within the heart, and spreads its influence all over the body of the embodied living being. When the soul is purified from the contamination of the five kinds of material air, its spiritual influence is exhibited.”


#12

my words
The seer though very small, is like the flame of a candle that does not waver in the wind. It stands still in its cozy home which is in the area of the heart. Surrounding it like a lantern is the mind which appears to shine but it does not, it is the self that shines. The mind reflects and appears to refract it’s effulgence.

Now the question quite naturally follows - How do I see me? I that am. There are ways, and shortcuts, and I will elaborate if someone asks nicely.


#13

one’s own self (atman) is indeed visible, to ones self, via the mind, like a reflection. I have done it - several times, in different ways, seen myself (direct perception) , no big whoop. I reasoned on what I was witnessing (inference), and checked my experience with scripture (testimony of the wise.)

It is a logical fallacy to experience ones self, because that creates the dicohtomy of experiencer and experienced. As soon as something is experienced it is no longer the experiencer. This is classical Vedanta and Samkhya argument: The observer can never be the observed. For if it does become the observed, than another observer has to be posited that is the observer of that. Hence the two can never be reduced to one another.


#14

If i look into the mirror and observe my self. who am i ,the observer or the observed?


#15

[QUOTE=Melchizedek;75108]my words
The seer though very small, is like the flame of a candle that does not waver in the wind. It stands still in its cozy home which is in the area of the heart. Surrounding it like a lantern is the mind which appears to shine but it does not, it is the self that shines. The mind reflects and appears to refract it’s effulgence.

Now the question quite naturally follows - How do I see me? I that am. There are ways, and shortcuts, and I will elaborate if someone asks nicely.[/QUOTE]

Melchizedek, Hello!

This is a polite request for you to share methods and shortcuts as you have stated above. Yes, please elaborate---- Many Thanks.


#16

[QUOTE=Aksara;75100]There is an interesting reference in the Mundaka Upanisad (3.1.9) about the location and measurement of the soul:

eso 'nur atma cetasa veditavyo
yasmin pranah pancadha samvivesa
pranais cittam sarvam otam prajanam
yasmin visuddhe vibhavaty esa atma

“The soul is atomic in size and can be perceived by perfect intelligence. This atomic soul is floating in the five kinds of air (prana, apana, vyana, samana and udana), is situated within the heart, and spreads its influence all over the body of the embodied living being. When the soul is purified from the contamination of the five kinds of material air, its spiritual influence is exhibited.”[/QUOTE]

Yes, this is an interesting reference! Thank you for taking the time to share! Only other question remains is can this be proven(can this be experienced?)


#17

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;75111]It is a logical fallacy to experience ones self, because that creates the dicohtomy of experiencer and experienced. As soon as something is experienced it is no longer the experiencer. This is classical Vedanta and Samkhya argument: The observer can never be the observed. For if it does become the observed, than another observer has to be posited that is the observer of that. Hence the two can never be reduced to one another.[/QUOTE]

Proof is in the pudding.


#18

[QUOTE=fakeyogis;75114]If i look into the mirror and observe my self. who am i ,the observer or the observed?[/QUOTE]

sometimes both! You never know who’s watching, unless of course that is in case you see them.


#19

[QUOTE=Juniper;75119]Yes, this is an interesting reference! Thank you for taking the time to share! Only other question remains is can this be proven(can this be experienced?)[/QUOTE]

Well there are two ways I have done it. The first describes a methodology I used and leads to self realization proper. The other method is not self realization proper but a bit of a parlor trick. A sneek peek.

[B]One Method for Self Realization proper[/B]
It is essentially of course Chitta vritti Nirodha. Mental quiescense after kriya. Over the course of time. The activity was thus . . .

[I]A.M.[/I]
Yogasana for one hour by well trained and devoted teacher. The pace was slow, with emphasis on deep breathing.

Then I took physical exercise for an hour. The physical exercise is not necessary but the excersize does confer the boon of detoxification.

Then I Sat in the Sauna for as long as I could stand it without negative effects. I educated myself about sauna therapy to avoid too much danger. I started with about 15 minutes and I worked my way up from there.
[I]End AM session[/I]

The Dietary rule was one of moderation.

The morning asana, traditional western exercise, and sauna sessions were for systemic detoxification. Which allowed for prolonged lying or sitting without the burden of physical discomfort which can, and does agitate the mind.

[I]Before Bed[/I]
"It’s at night when the majic happens."
First I studied some teachings…

Then. The Evening session focused on advanced asana, and exploring mudra and bandha, as those things were not taught in the moring class I attended. I don’t like holding my breath so I gave that up but I kept those teachings in mind.

[I]Then in the tranquility that followed the session. I lay down with a bit of a grin, with eyes closed, and concentrated (did dharana) on the space about six inches infront of and between the eyebrows

The gazing lasted between 30 minutes and an hour.

One day . . . I began seeing phenomena in that space between the brows. This phenomena is recorded in various scriptures. And as Patanjali said "those dharanas which bring extraordinary experiences cause perseverance of the mind. These Phenomena are in part - the proverbial carrot on the stick.[/I]

Then one morning the mind was so quiet and still that the clouds parted and my own self came pouring through the veil and I was sat, chit, ananda. Meaning a wave of joy, the likes of which one doesn’t forget, came and sat on me.

Then it was over. I was so excited the mind got agitated, and it was lost - but not lost.

[B]The Parlor Trick[/B]
You won’t experience the bliss but if you do it right you will get to see yourself.

This is what worked for me. Or how I did it. The minute mechanics of it, how it works - i don’t know.

Find a comfortable seat. I use what I think some call vajra, or vira I don’t know. I sit on my heels. Left heel under the left cheek, Right Heel under the right Cheek. Or if i’m limber I root on the seam (perineum) left foot on the left side, right foot on the right side.

Sitting then I do outer trataka. I find a hole in the wall, or make one with a thumbtack, thats level with my gaze as I “stare between the brows”

My head is about two feet from the wall.

I don’t worry about thoughts comming and going, I just concentrate on fixing my gaze and let the thougts go, or come.

I’m putting some energy into it. I’m trying to stare a hole [I]through[/I] that wall. I’m trying to “cut through it” I"m trying to move through it. I’m trying to make it catch on fire.

I’m just tell my self that I’m going to keep staring until the tears come to my eyes. I’m not blinking and if I do blink - well I keep on staring.

The eyes start to water.
Once they start to water I close them.

Take a breath, because I’m fixing to hold it. I hold the breath the entire time I’m doing the techniques. So you can see, if you do it right it doesn’t take long at all to push through.

Suck the guts “a little” in as in Uddiyana.

And here’s the trick…

Apply [I]shankmukhi mudra.[/I] Thumbs on the ears, index Fingers on the eyes, middle fingers plugging the nose, and the pinkies on the mouth. Close all the gates you can without strain - ala ashwini mudra.

I’m holding the breath, a slight uddiyana, fingers over the gates of the head, the ashwini mudra is slight. I’m trying to make it all still.

Then I do the inner gaze as i did the outter.

I’m trying to cut through the mind. Pull through the mind. Move forward. Just as I did the outter fixing, i do the inner. If it clicks with you what I’m saying. “cutting through, moving forward, pulling towards” then I think you’ll get it.

If your perceptive you’ll see the different layers of your being, and you keep going IN.

And if you did it right, or ‘good enough’ you will see a luminous cloud, and if you can “cut through the luminous cloud” you will see the inner mind, and inside the mind is the self.

Just as described.

“Like an unflickering candle flame, self luminous.”

and you will know what the thelemesits mean when they say “every man and woman is a star.”

And you will know that you are the lord - of your own house. Your own house being your body. And hopefully you will give up the notion of being the Head of this Universe. A job of course handled by the Lord. Who is called by some Ishvara, or “the lord of Hosts,” or the King of Kings.

Enjoy.

And this goes to all, please post your experiences - if you give this a try.

It’s quite easy once you practice it and get the technical aspects down.

There may be a couple sticking points that trip you up so ask and I will try to answer.

[I]Finger pressure on the eyes is important.[/I] The right pressure helps you “cut through.” You may not even need to pull with the mind at all, if the finger pressure is right.

This is simply what worked for me. There are many ways to skin a cat. I have not scientificaly gone through and determined which steps are necesary or superfulous. But I would try it the way i described before getting creative.


#20

[QUOTE=fakeyogis;75114]If i look into the mirror and observe my self. who am i ,the observer or the observed?[/QUOTE]

Well, exactly, you do not actually observe yourself. You observe a reflection of your body. In like manner when you introspect, you still do not observe yourself, you observe your mind. You never really observe the observer.