Existence Of The Soul


#61

It’s very difficult to speak of such things like a ‘Soul’ or ‘God’ because even though to many, such things do indeed exist, realising they do and where they are is entirely experiential and requires a huge ‘leap of faith’.

I shall concede that although I may not have ‘found’ God, I have somehow awakened my Heart Chakra to be able to feel enough of that Divine Presence within me, and to know Shiva/Paramatman or whatever “God” is, also resides in the ‘Temple of my Heart’.

In regards to this, the tiny ‘Flame inside the Alcove’ example given by Melchizedek, is the one that fits closest to what I personally feel this ‘Soul’ is like…always burning, never wavering, giving off Light, but no heat.

Bhakti [B]is[/B] the key for me here. [B]Totally![/B]

It’s difficult for one who is trying to go beyond one’s 'personal relationship with the ‘Oversoul’ to experience the ‘Individual Soul’ in the attempt to ultimately realise/understand there’s absolutely no difference between the two.

If we work hard/are blessed or whatever the case Mahadev sees fit of us, some of us may catch just a ‘glimpse’ of the Soul a few times in our lives…very fleeting, very brief…but enough to convince us it’s there.

The key to understanding all this for [I]me[/I]…that ‘missing piece of the puzzle’ was Bhakti.

Even though Adi Shankacharya was lost in Brahman most of the time, he still wrote the most beautiful, Bhakti inspired works about his total unconditional Love and full surrender to Lord Shiva. He could ‘come down’ from a state of total immersion, to a ‘relational state’ with God in order to write them. That’s what set me off.

The ‘Soul’ is also IN everything and it’s the same Soul that’s a part of everything and pervades all matter. I just have to look at the Fibonacci sequence and how beautiful sunflowers, pine cones, nautilus shells, bee hives, dragonfly wings, the spiralling arms of our Galaxy etc are to KNOW there’s a pattern, plan and a ‘Cosmic Dance’ behind all matter…

Everything also resonates with the ‘Soul vibration’ which is Aum.

For everything else, I’ll leave George Harrison to explain it much better than I can:


#62

[QUOTE=Suhas Tambe;80981]Well-said.

Had the same dilemma while writing the book. There are several hurdles dealing with Sanskrit terms in English. Inadequate or simply wrong equivalent words is one, different historical and epistemological connotations of words is the other. Even spelling as ‘Yoga’ that makes people say ‘yogaa’ is not correct.

The dilemma is, should one stick to Sanskrit words that are non-translatable and in that process continue to alienate several English-speaking seekers or one could explain the difference between the two and give new (deeper – wider) meaning to the English words which may soon be acceptable?

Personally, I prefer the latter.[/QUOTE]

Having nothing much to do at this moment, I just thought I would give my opinion on this matter as well.

I am a Caucasian female of middle-age living in Australia, but I was [I]born[/I] a Hindu (if we want to pigeonhole me religiously somewhere).

I was first introduced into the religion at a very early and impressionable age after witnessing the Thaipusam festival in Malaysia where people mutilated themselves with huge metal spikes and giant fishooks pulling chariots of Bel Murugan and impaling themselves on metal skewers in the process thereof…no blood, no pain, no holes, no scars…nothing afterwards.

A 10yr old girl sat there and just prayed…asking a Christian God to explain all this all too her. She became a disciple of Lord Shiva not long after that.

I studied Sanskrit for [I]many[/I] years, reading and studying the Bhagavad Gita, the Ramayana, and of [B]course[/B] the Shiu Puran. I learned all the Mantras, rituals, Hawan, Pooja for both Shiv Bhagavan and Devi (Durga).

Yes, it’s difficult to translate Sanskrit into English, [I]but[/I] the reverse also applies.

Seeing as how English is my ‘Mother Tongue’ and I learned that Lord Shiva doesn’t really care what language I speak…

Sometimes, I will just forgo all the Sanskrit stuff and tell Shiva what I am feeling inside and how much I am (even though I am sure He knows that already). lol

There are some things that aren’t translatable into any language and those are the nicest things.


#63

Words are containers of thought, thought is a verbalization of cognition, cognition packages perception with instincts and emotions. So, ultimately words carry and deliver instincts + emotions + perception.

Where the contact is so intimate, for example, oneself and the divinity, agents are not needed and insticts etc are delivered ‘as is’. Difficulties of translation arise with a need to convey across the media. Afterall, though a language is commonly shared grammar and words, speech/ expression is very personal. And because in traslation there are 2 sets of words, the problem is which one to stick to.

Here, in m view, in some cases, stick to English and it becomes a defective interpretation and stick to Sankrt and your audience is alienated.

@Nobody,
interestingly you also wanted to “tell” Shiva in the end, while your description describes pure co-vibration with Shiva that needs no language and I agree with that totally.


#64

[QUOTE=Suhas Tambe;81110]@Nobody,
interestingly you also wanted to “tell” Shiva in the end, while your description describes pure co-vibration with Shiva that needs no language and I agree with that totally.[/QUOTE]
Thank you my friend. Sometimes that gets quite confusing for me too.

My father was a photographer and editor for a South-East Asian travel magazine, so of course I used to get to travel around that area quite a lot as I was growing up…

After what happened in Malaysia, a few years went by and I wasn’t really keeping up with my prayers, worship or study.

I also had a lot of schoolwork to do and being a girl, things were also changing in my life.

So it was that my father took an assignment on the island of Bali for a week and my family were to accompany him on a ‘paid holiday’.

He was there covering another large festival associated with the Barong Lion (a native Crop/Fertility deity)…

The guide told me to bring a piece of fruit to offer to God during the ceremony (which I did)…but I wasn’t allowed to leave my seat by my father, being reminded we were only there in a ‘professional/observational capacity’ and nothing more (my family pretty much had enough of my ‘religious antics’ by that point anyway). lol

However, I was massively pissed off at being denied my ‘right to religious expression’ so I closed my eyes and sat there in ‘grumpy meditation’ silently offering my apple as a ‘thought form’ on the temple altar anyway.

When I opened my eyes, I could see the shaman/priest just staring at me…even though there were about 200 people in that temple and I was sitting near the very back of it. He whispered to a man beside him who found our tour guide…apparently, they all wanted to see me after the ceremony and my father couldn’t say a word…I mean, his chin was on the ground anyway.

We all went to see the shaman/priest and I asked him why I had been called there.

He didn’t speak much English, but through our guide, mentioned something about a ‘strong white light’ and the ‘face of god’.

Then, I asked him if he could identify it for me. He just said “Siu”.

I fell to my feet and wept uncontrollably.


#65

Growing in the Eastern cultures allows us to accept the fact that on the spiritual path there is no return proportionate to the investment. The unknown factor always is our spiritual legacy of past lives. To a Western mind this is irrational and unfair.

There is also an inborn bias towards a structure, a methodology and a timeframe for the results to occur. When they expect the same on the spiritual path there is disappointment, some even walk away dejected.

The experiences you have narrated are a few amongst unlimited possibilities. Is there a method leading to them? Can you have them at will? Can you explain them? No, no & no.

But anything that happens has a purpose. And we need to invest our time & attention to figure that out. The human birth is a rare opportunity to live in the gross, material world and to learn to know the subtle. That seems to be the primary purpose.


#66

[QUOTE=Suhas Tambe;81116]Growing in the Eastern cultures allows us to accept the fact that on the spiritual path there is no return proportionate to the investment. The unknown factor always is our spiritual legacy of past lives. To a Western mind this is irrational and unfair.

There is also an inborn bias towards a structure, a methodology and a timeframe for the results to occur. When they expect the same on the spiritual path there is disappointment, some even walk away dejected.

The experiences you have narrated are a few amongst unlimited possibilities. Is there a method leading to them? Can you have them at will? Can you explain them? No, no & no.

But anything that happens has a purpose. And we need to invest our time & attention to figure that out. The human birth is a rare opportunity to live in the gross, material world and to learn to know the subtle. That seems to be the primary purpose.[/QUOTE]
Thank you for explaining that, Suhas.

I guess this is also the reason why I gravitate a lot towards Zen Buddhism as well and the whole ‘spontaneity’ of Spiritual experience.

I realise Schrodinger’s Cat must be placed squarely amongst any pigeons that are not already roosting somewhere and I also [I]know[/I] all this is sounding very ‘pretentious’ of me as well.

Like I told Surya Deva, I am not trying to claim anything, change anything (although this forum is kinda dying a lot I notice)…all I really want to do is at least [I]try[/I] to be a ‘shining example’ of Bhakti Yoga, while trying to illustrate the point that it’s not something one can really ‘learn’ either…it either happens or it doesn’t.

*I hope Juniper is still around reading all this.

I was also reminded yesterday in another thread about Ram Dass (Richard Alpert). I really liked that whole message of; ‘Be Here Now’ and I honestly feel that people are trying [I]too[/I] hard here, when all they need to do, is to just surrender wholly and drop their minds.

It all depends on what we want though…even though that really has no bearing on any of it. lol

I’m happy being ‘stuck’ here for a while, but I know I am going to have to ‘kill Shiva’ eventually. :evil:

Om Namah Shivaya.


#67

[QUOTE=Juniper;74974]Does the soul exist?
If human beings have a “soul” where is it within the human being? I have heard people say the soul is located near the heart. Can anyone shed some light on this?[/QUOTE]

http://esotericscience.org/article12a.htm


#68

[QUOTE=Melchizedek;75124]Well there are two ways I have done it.
The first describes a methodology I used and leads to self realization proper.
The other method is not self realization proper but a bit of a parlor trick.
A sneek peek.

[B]One Method for Self Realization proper[/B]
It is essentially of course Chitta vritti Nirodha.
Mental quiescense after kriya. Over the course of time.
The activity was thus . . .

[I]A.M.[/I]
Yogasana for one hour by well trained and devoted teacher.
The pace was slow, with emphasis on deep breathing.

Then I took physical exercise for an hour.
The physical exercise is not necessary but the excersize
does confer the boon of detoxification.

Then I Sat in the Sauna for as long as I could stand it
without negative effects. I educated myself about sauna
therapy to avoid too much danger. I started with about
15 minutes and I worked my way up from there.
[I]End AM session[/I]

The Dietary rule was one of moderation.

The morning asana, traditional western exercise,
and sauna sessions were for systemic detoxification.
Which allowed for prolonged lying or sitting without the
burden of physical discomfort which can, and does agitate the mind.

[I]Before Bed[/I]
"It’s at night when the majic happens."
First I studied some teachings…

Then. The Evening session focused on advanced asana,
and exploring mudra and bandha, as those things were
not taught in the moring class I attended. I don’t like
holding my breath so I gave that up but I kept those
teachings in mind.

[I]Then in the tranquility that followed the session.
I lay down with a bit of a grin, with eyes closed, and
concentrated (did dharana) on the space about six inches
infront of and between the eyebrows

The gazing lasted between 30 minutes and an hour.

One day . . . I began seeing phenomena in that space
between the brows. This phenomena is recorded in various scriptures.
And as Patanjali said "those dharanas which bring extraordinary
experiences cause perseverance of the mind.
These Phenomena are in part - the proverbial carrot on the stick.[/I]

Then one morning the mind was so quiet and still
that the clouds parted and my own self came pouring
through the veil and I was sat, chit, ananda.
Meaning a wave of joy, the likes of which one doesn’t
forget, came and sat on me.

Then it was over. I was so excited the mind
got agitated, and it was lost - but not lost.

[B]The Parlor Trick[/B]
You won’t experience the bliss but if you do it right
you will get to see yourself.

This is what worked for me. Or how I did it.
The minute mechanics of it, how it works - i don’t know.

Find a comfortable seat. I use what I think some
call vajra, or vira I don’t know. I sit on my heels.
Left heel under the left cheek, Right Heel under the right Cheek.
Or if i’m limber I root on the seam (perineum) left foot
on the left side, right foot on the right side.

Sitting then I do outer trataka. I find a hole in the wall,
or make one with a thumbtack, thats level with my gaze as
I “stare between the brows”

My head is about two feet from the wall.

I don’t worry about thoughts comming and going,
I just concentrate on fixing my gaze and let the thougts go, or come.

I’m putting some energy into it. I’m trying to stare
a hole [I]through[/I] that wall. I’m trying to "cut through it"
I"m trying to move through it. I’m trying to make it catch on fire.

I’m just tell my self that I’m going to keep staring until the
tears come to my eyes. I’m not blinking and if I do blink -
well I keep on staring.

The eyes start to water.
Once they start to water I close them.

Take a breath, because I’m fixing to hold it.
I hold the breath the entire time I’m doing the techniques.
So you can see, if you do it right it doesn’t take long at all to push through.

Suck the guts “a little” in as in Uddiyana.

And here’s the trick…

Apply [I]shankmukhi mudra.[/I] Thumbs on the ears,
index Fingers on the eyes, middle fingers plugging the nose,
and the pinkies on the mouth. Close all the gates you can
without strain - ala ashwini mudra.

I’m holding the breath, a slight uddiyana,
fingers over the gates of the head, the ashwini
mudra is slight. I’m trying to make it all still.

Then I do the inner gaze as i did the outter.

I’m trying to cut through the mind. Pull through
the mind. Move forward. Just as I did the outter
fixing, i do the inner. If it clicks with you what I’m saying.
“cutting through, moving forward, pulling towards” then
I think you’ll get it.

If your perceptive you’ll see the different layers of your
being, and you keep going IN.

And if you did it right, or ‘good enough’ you will see a
luminous cloud, and if you can "cut through the luminous cloud"
you will see the inner mind, and inside the mind is the self.

Just as described.

“Like an unflickering candle flame, self luminous.”

and you will know what the thelemesits mean when
they say “every man and woman is a star.”

And you will know that you are the lord - of your
own house. Your own house being your body.
And hopefully you will give up the notion of being the
Head of this Universe. A job of course handled by the Lord.
Who is called by some Ishvara, or "the lord of Hosts,"
or the King of Kings.

Enjoy.

And this goes to all, please post your experiences

  • if you give this a try.

It’s quite easy once you practice it and get the
technical aspects down.

There may be a couple sticking points that trip you
up so ask and I will try to answer.

[I]Finger pressure on the eyes is important.[/I]
The right pressure helps you “cut through.” You may not
even need to pull with the mind at all, if the finger pressure is right.

This is simply what worked for me.
There are many ways to skin a cat.
I have not scientificaly gone through and
determined which steps are necesary or superfulous.
But I would try it the way i described before getting creative.[/QUOTE]

NIce job sharing and explaining your method.
Please pardon the reflow of text this site does
not deal with graphics inserted in a post very well it
tends to loose text.

Parlor trick in Kriya Circles it is a little different technique
but called Yoni or Jyoti Mudra depends on the school.
This is a graphice representation of that which has been
experienced, by the time this is experienced one
is already in a different state of awareness.

Usually a disk shape in the darkness is seen it can be dark red with spokes
then it becomes lighter in color then it turns gold white and yellow.
The the initial stages described below.

Initial Stages seeing the Star the outer ring continues to expand like
a big bang of sorts ever expanding from nothing outwards
until the orb and the 5 pointed white star are observed.

Once the orb and the star are observed by focusing
on the star it grows
larger untils the orb and the star are all then
only the star then an intuitive leap
or rather one is pulled into the star.

Once one enters the star there is brilliant light and then one
can see in panoramic vision and beholds a body of this appearance
below for lack of a better term a body of light that and has yet another
a much different state of awareness:

Apologies these are very crude representations.

I have also experienced leaning out of the body wearing the subtle body
looking at the meat suit this is not the same.
The subtle body has a greyish blue color to it and like this one is youthful
in appearance without hair. The subtle body has a joyful happy relieved
emotion about it, unencumbered, light hearted and laughing at the prank of flesh.

The golden body in the Orb depicted has a completely different kind of
witness awareness.

It is my belief that neither body are the Atman but perishable
because this mind can relate the experience.

More experienced peoples thoughts welcome.


#69

I’m new to this thread but, of course the soul (you) exists. It is the center of all your incarnations.

Jim


#70

Was surprised to find this old thread resurrected. Have not visited this website for some time. bjorkstrand, you seem to be certain human beings have souls and it is the center of all your incarnations. What leads you to think or believe any of this is true? Are you implying you have knowledge of past lives?


#71

The question: “do you have knowledge of the past lives” implies that this life, and the knowledge about it ‘as is’ is primary and everything else is seen with reference to it. And that if we carry experiential knowledge about previous births, the same way as we do now, that validates the past lives. “I am” of this life is firmly in command!

Soul cannot be seen nor even be sensed. So, it can only be inferred to begin with. Vedic literature takes the human body to be multi-tiered each with several layers of subtle elements and calls the subtlest, the soul. It also says that subtle comes first and lasts longer; that subtle drives the gross and finally, gross dies leaving its legacy of karma in the custody of the subtle. So, one infers that the subtle is mandated to manifest again as gross and redeem the karma debt. In this sense, the soul connects many incarnations.

However, there is something else to consider too. At the gross level the objects are distinct, “many”. At the levels of their subtler counterparts, the distinction, the ‘individuality’ diminishes. Thus, finally the soul remains “One” and infinite and omnipresent. So, to say that who reincarnates is the same individual who died, is deceptive if not patently wrong. A part of infinite is infinite and soul cannot be property of an individual.

Then, returning to ‘knowledge’, it remains subjective, experience-based and egotistic. Now how can the journey of death (from gross to subtle) and new incarnation (back to gross) would enable the “experience” to be even contemplated? The experiences of the past incarnations will be incompatible with any gross-level understanding. So, perhaps the enlightened ones can decipher that. (But, may be from where they see, remembering past lives the way we remember yesterdays will be utterly pointless!)

Now, just because the inference is our only key to understanding does not mean this is all faith or belief and hence, unreal. The DNA and the emerging science of epigenetics point to something similar, some transference of code from one life form to another. Reincarnations need to be seen on that expanded, generic terms.


#72

[QUOTE][/QUOTE]"The experiences of the past incarnations will be incompatible with any gross-level understanding. So, perhaps the enlightened ones can decipher that. (But may be from where they see, remembering past lives the way we remember yesterdays will be utterly pointless!)

In my opinion it would not be pointless at all if an enlightened one remembered past lives the way we remember yesterdays. It would help in proving that we do exist in some way after death of the physical body.

My next question now is… where do I find such an enlightened one?


#73

?Reincarnation exists only so long as there is ignorance. There is really no reincarnation at all, either now or before.? ~Ramana Maharshi

?Only those who think themselves born can think themselves re-born.? ~Nisargadatta Maharaj

?Does a wave in the ocean ever reincarnate? Once it settles back down to its source does it ever appear again? Was it ever separate from ocean in the first place? So what about this body mind is there to reincarnate? See if you can find anything about this body mind that reincarnates. If there is something, you should be able to find what that is. I don’t mean some mystical thing like a soul, which no one has ever seen but only conceptualized about. But what do you actually know? Know yourself as you truly are, eternal, unborn and never dying. And in that knowing the question of reincarnation will drop. Live as you are now?free, unlimited and eternal.? ~Salvadore Poe


#74

Hi Ray,

Thanks for the quotes. It is helpful. Salvadore Poe, I have never heard of until now. How does one put aside the fact we are all born here on earth, we all come out from our mother’s womb, every person alive today will some day breathe their last and die. So, how can we be unborn and never dying?

The we are eternal phrase suggests perhaps something continues to exist after our physical demise.
I don’t know.


#75

I?m unfamiliar with Salvadore Poe myself, remembered his quote from somewhere. It seems when the body falls, the mind falls, the consciousness falls along with the made up story of one?s life that has been stored in memory, perhaps if one pursues the question ?who am I? one may eventually realize an illusion in separation that has developed, that perhaps one?s true inner nature is not mind/body/consciousness but rather pure awareness that which one was before birth, that which one is now, that which one is when breath leaves the body, that which one is eternally; timeless, spaceless, unchangeable permanents?the infinite absolute, that which cannot be described but experienced.

“The search for Reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings, for it destroys the world in which you live.” ~Nisargadatta Maharaj


#76

Here’s a simple parallel.

Just bend down and pick up handful of earth. This must have been clay some time back, then perhaps a pot, then broken debris, then left to disintegrate. It may soon be excavated, then mixed with concrete, used in construction, then a part of a wall and on & on.

Now, if we exchanged roles and be that earth with a huge hand holding us, what will it see itself as? and who will be seeing - the grains, the molecules, the atoms and particles? And what if the underlying energy is seeing inside out? The forms change, come and go; it remains forever.


#77

It certainly does seem nothing can be added nor subtracted from the universe since energy is neither created nor destroyed, it simply changes form.