Fated to be alone forever?

Yoga Discussion General Yoga
#39

To add:

To dissuade somebody from spirituality and encourage them to focus on their current goals is not not helping, but helps a lot. It allows people to be clear exactly in their mind on they want and when they are clear what they want, they can move towards getting it. If what somebody wants is sex, then be clear that is what you want, then put in the effort to get it.

This actually plays into spirituality. What is holding us back from the divine is our egoic wants and desires. As long as they are there, the the feeling for the divine cannot arise within us. This is why in the spiritual traditions desire is seen as something which holds us back, limits us, and creates suffering for us(first noble truth of Buddha) hence the ideal state is said to be a state of desirelessness.

And believe you me, I have found the force of desire the hardest thing to deal with in my own spiritual path. It has prevented me from developing further in life. This is why I decided that I needed to work on my desires. Like I said there are two major ways of doing it:

Right hand path: Literally forcing yourself to go in the opposite direction of your desires. It means following a very rigid code of life. The kind of life you would have to lead if you went to a monastery(5 am wake up, fixed times for meditation/prayer, basic, tasteless food, 9pm sleep) No gossip, maintaining silence at most times, no television, no sports, celibacy. This highly regimented life is designed to force your mind into new habits and by doing so the desires within one gradually begin to weaken.

Left hand path: Working directly with your desire and experiencing its result. The aim is to transcend the desire by developing dispassion for it. For example, suppose you have an addiction to chocolate. Then eat chocolate and see how it makes you feel. Then eat another and see how that feels. Then another… and another… and another. Eventually dispassion will come and you will not want to eat another chocolate.

In my experience I have found the left hand path is the most practical way of overcoming desire and it works very well. Deal with your desires one by one, that eventually none are left. I feel like I have come a longer way in my spiritual development by following this path, than I ever did with the right hand path.

If it is the desire of girls that is holding you back. Then get a girl, experience what it is like, and trust me when the novelty wears out you will be thinking to yourself, “Why did I want this so much before” When the realization comes that getting a girl has not really brought you fulfillment, you will develop dispassion for girls. Then your mind will shift to the next desire… and the next… and the next until no more are left to experience.

The left hand path actually mirrors how nature works according to Samkhya. Nature is constantly moving us forward towards our final liberation by producing the experiences that we need or desire. When the soul has experienced it, understood it and developed dispassion, nature stops producing those experiences. This process has been automatic up until the human stage, where the human then takes conscious control of their evolution. Thus it is up to us to carry out own evolution by consciously carrying out the process nature does(really we are just nature personified).

#40

Hello

When i say little is better than nothing i talk about common man. Im not telling you about my life im not here defending my ego either.

And it is true little is better than nothing, im sorry if you cant see it that way but maybe you will at a later point. You talk now from your point of view -you have come further than most of humans. But what did you do for some lifetimes ago? Where you then this serious? I doubt that and you cant be serious if you didnt get tired of this life. All has to reach there sometime. Maybe some lifes ago your were worse than him.

We have all been where he is now. At some time ago.

My message was give people water so that they grow instead.

And you talk about winners and losers, why are you splitting people into groups we are all the same, just that some are ruled by their minds but their mind is not their real self. A better word is ignorant. Cause how can you judge people for something that is not them. When you say that also it means you qualify your self as winner. Would this be appropriate for a spiritual man? Indirectly you say that all that are mixed up in worldly matters are losers. A loser today can exceed you tomorrow. And in previous life maybe you were a loser. If you became enlightened tomorrow would you then say im a winner yeah and rest is loser?

But it is true that noone is fit for spiritual life if mixed up in the world but that doesnt mean he should not meditate, maybe he works in this life mixed up in the world but he start meditate every day and then next life he come to the point where you are now.
But noone can start from first life to become as seriuos as you, not even you did.You must have incarnated many times. Your actions puts you into place in next life, so what little you do does matter. IF you are only capable of doing little you will be rewarded in this and next life. Otherwise it doesnt matter if i do evil stuff halfheartedly nothing bad will happen to me if we use the opposite of what you said.

#41

Prefer me to use the word ignorant and foolish :wink:

You assume spiritual evolution is linear and always going in one direction. It does not quite work like that, it can go up as well as down. It is based on this understanding the game Snakes and Ladders was invented. There are some ladders that can take you high very quickly, but there are some snakes which which take you all the way back down.

There is no time to waste. If you put in a little effort, you will get little gains. If you put in a little effort going up, and more effort going down, you will end up going down. Like taking 2 steps forward, and 3 steps back. There are some people who meditate an hour a day and then on the weekend go party heavy drinking, smoking, doing drugs - and several years down the line you meet these people and they’re nowhere.

Attaining liberation by the end of this lifetime is a tall order. Nobody is going to get liberation if they are half-hearted in their effort. Nature has its own way of sorting out the chaff from the wheat. Most people are chaff, they put in little effort in life, spend most of their time faffing about, and then leave Earth. A few are the wheat that take their life seriously, commit themselves to achieving their goals and emerge as successes in whatever area they apply themselves in.

Masses are invariably stupid and failures. Genius and greatness is rare.

#42

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;72685]I somewhat suspect bolno is a troll. Last time I checked he was going to commit suicide.[/QUOTE]

This is true. His suicide threat came after this one and has been deleted (or I can’t see it). If he is genuine, then he’s not around to read all the excellent posts.

#43

its true noone halfhearted will become enlightened, some people also dont want to be that. Maybe they are scared and dont know its the greatest gift you can get on earth. but as there is a saying a sinner can become a saint tomorrow. So its not easy to observe and say this guy wont make it as it can be wrong. All people has to start somewhere and its better to cherish them to do meditation than not. Sometimes it turns out that the one you didnt have much thought for is the one that surprises you.

There is not a rule without exceptions. So if we use our minds and judging people its not correct as we might be wrong. There are many examples. So even a killer and thief could be fit for it.

And you have the one who used to rob and kill swamis and then later on became a swami him self. Probably you can google his name as i forgot it.

And mila repa who killed many people.

So who seems most unfit can change their life drastical. scriptures they are just guidelines and the truth cant be explained by just words. it must be felt.

angulimala thought by release suffering by killing 1000 men he would become enlightened. After he have killed 999 he met buddha. You should see the movie.

People tend to judge too much. And they think they know how an enlightened person would and should behave. Even though they never met one. This is foolish. But we should not be like those people.

#44

This discussion seems to overflow right now.

fakeyogis, can you please proof this as I cannot read it anywhere:

[QUOTE=fakeyogis;72691]you say :if somebody cannot handle getting a girlfriend in life, how are they going to handle the spiritual life?
[/QUOTE]

this as well:

[QUOTE=fakeyogis;72691]there is no middle rule as you say[/QUOTE]

This does not have to be true:

[QUOTE=FlexPenguin;72691]
If he is genuine, then he’s not around to read all the excellent posts.[/QUOTE]

Word of the day, which includes a lot more truth than the author might think :wink: :

[QUOTE=fakeyogis;72691]
People tend to judge too much. And they think they know how an enlightened person would and should behave. Even though they never met one. This is foolish. But we should not be like those people.[/QUOTE]

This discussion is very interesting, even for bolno, who has at least one living person behind him with some approach to the problems described. I like to read the posts but please don’t be too generous with assumptions.

#45

You are to quick you cut out the words from the whole sentance so the meaning becomes totally different for anyone to see and deluded and you ask me to proof this.
This can be the reason why everything have got deluded i thank you for showing me this experience. Now i have a understanding from a deeper level. From the time when we had no magazines there was mouth to mouth. I have also been to quick before and in school i never finnished reading before i did the task, and the outcome was not good as we can guess :).
It can happen quite easily if we read too fast.

My advice to you is to read everything again. And please dont miss out the words infront i.e so if.

Then i can answer your questions happily.IF i can.

Some things can be proved and some not cause the latter needs experience in order to belive.

#46

its true noone halfhearted will become enlightened, some people also dont want to be that.

Exactly, and those people are not spiritual. They have other priorities in life.

I am not denying that sinners can also become saints. They become saints because they the sinner is committed to becoming one and then they succeed. Then we can say that the sinner is on a spiritual path. I am just denying those people who do not commit to spirituality. They do not deserve to be called spiritual. It is unfair on genuine spiritual people to call these people spiritual.

#47

yes but i dont care if they call them self spiritual, i could get angry if i wanted too but that is of no benefit for me. So I just let be and act like fools. A time will also come when they will be tired of life. And thus they will change. Its lucky for them though they dont know their previous incarnations so every new life is a new life for them. In a way unlucky that they must come back. But they dont know it so they dont suffer from that.

Best thing is to let them do what they do, i used to get angry but realised it has no benefit for me and the angriness is in my mind only so it was my ego that got angry and not me.

Im sure people like you will make a change in the future, many spiritual people is needed to make a change in the world. And the time now is critical as all is going fast in the wrong direction.

#48

I like SD’s approach about that desires have to be fulfilled for aiming at a full-fledged spiritual life, but I don’t consider that first stage incompatible with yoga practice. On the contrary, it could improve and accelerate it.

#49

Yes you are right, it is not incompatible with Yoga practice. It is a preliminary to the practice. I have stopped my meditation and yoga practices, and to an extent even my reading practices of texts, because my practice now is predominately left hand - which is basically another way of saying I live ordinary now. But the aim is to work on my desires. I have even recently starting to abandon my 10 year vegetarianism, not really because I desire meat, -but because I desire to know why am I not eating meat. In the last 2 years I have really dramatically changed the course and geography of my life. But I feel like I am coming to the end of my left hand path/preliminary. The light of the right hand path(Yoga proper) is now in my sight in the distance.

#50

[QUOTE=fakeyogis;72721]You are to quick you cut out the words from the whole sentance so the meaning becomes totally different for anyone to see and deluded and you ask me to proof this.
This can be the reason why everything have got deluded i thank you for showing me this experience. Now i have a understanding from a deeper level. From the time when we had no magazines there was mouth to mouth. I have also been to quick before and in school i never finnished reading before i did the task, and the outcome was not good as we can guess :).
It can happen quite easily if we read too fast.

My advice to you is to read everything again. And please dont miss out the words infront i.e so if.

Then i can answer your questions happily.IF i can.

Some things can be proved and some not cause the latter needs experience in order to belive.[/QUOTE]

That is a great answer to a rhetorical question. By the way, I should remember the part with the mouth-to-mouth and the magazines for my future discussions :wink:

#51

surya deva

As you dont meditate at all now.

What you could practice if you take longwalks is to be in the now and be aware rather than minddreaming that is common.

Always when i took longwalks as young i used to think on stuff and i thought that was good to release the mindstuff. Probably at that level it was good to do so to release the pressure a little bit.

But now try to not go into the thoughts and just be and be aware of the nature. You will find out that you have missed so much of the beatiful nature all along.

We usually mediate i.e 30 minutes per day or more but the rest of 23.5 hours we let the mind go crazy more or less so just meditation is not so beneficial, i mean it is but not enough if we want to go further . we should try to stop the mind all along the day. Moksa is when you have no chitta(mindstuff) at all.

I have tried this my self for some months and i really feel a diffrence and i hope you as well as any other that read this can benefit from this as i did.

Its just like meditation if we realize a thought hooked us just come back.
We must combine meditation and wakingstate to be able to conquer the mind.

Im not a pro but i think it starts with meditation then we extend that awarness to the waking hours as well.

#52

What you could practice if you take longwalks is to be in the now

I don’t practice any kind of Yoga practices right now. Until, I do not feel I have gained what I am trying to gain from the left hand path i.e., discrimination and dispassion of the wordly, I am not going to do any Yoga practices. I am a work in progress - I am still finding myself and exploring my desires and experimenting with myself. It will take some time before I am ready to commit myself properly to the right hand path. I think this time is coming close, but something still needs to be resolved.

#53

I dont know now but maybe something does not want you to progress so it holds you back. It could be your ego, but this only you can find out adn it does not have to be your ego. But at least give it a thought before discarded.

The ego is really clever it can make you think that a bad thought that suddenly comes to your mind is your own thought so that you feel frustrated that you thought you had a bad thought. The ego wants to hold you back and Only awareness can prevent this. If you have experienced this you know what i mean.

Im NOT saying this is the case but it should at least be considered and thought about. As a possible cause. Before discarded.

#54

It is a no-brainer to say the ego is holding me back. The ego is holding us all back. It is the ego that is creating our limited consciousness of ourselves. In fact we shouldn’t talking of the ego as if it something separate from us, we are that ego. When I say “my ego” it is like the ego saying my ego. We create further fragmentation within ourselves by dividing ourselves into yet another compartment, “the ego”

We so often hear people criticize people saying, “It’s your ego saying it” Suhas Tambe is particularly notorious for using this criticism on others. What does not realize is that it his ego saying, “it’s your ego” Spiritual people like to behave all high and mighty and will readily criticise another person, but do not realize that the one that is doing the criticizing, is their own ego.

It is entirely possible that I have deceived myself into justifying my indulgence in desire as an actual path I am following. In fact, a lot of people who go on the left-land path do it just because they need a good excuse to indulge in desires. Many people who went to Osho’s ashram(the modern guru of the left hand path) went there because they could have sex in his ashrams.
But, at the same time, there is a rationale and logic behind the left hand path, otherwise it would not have existed at all. Indulging in desire, does after all produce dispassion. As I demonstrated earlier indulge in any desire, say desire to eat chocolate enough times one after the other, and dispassion will dawn. In reality, however we do not indulge intensely in any desire, but rather vary our desires, before we repeat it. I am sure you have heard yourself saying, “Never again, I will not do this again” but after a certain amount of time, you are back to doing it and enjoy it again. Then again you tell yourself, “Never again”

Dispassion comes the very moment you fulfill a desire if you are acute enough to sense it. After sex, you feel dispassion for sex immediately. You don’t want it. In fact the anticipation of it was much better than the actual sex itself. This one has happened with me so many of my times, I would spend weeks fantasizing about sex and what it would feel like, and then when it actually happens, rather than producing joy within me, it feels more like a relief or even a disappointment.
But, what is lacking with this dispassion is discernment(vivek) The discernment has to be there along with the dispassion to realize, “Sex is not all that great actually, I really don’t need to have sex ever again in my life” or “Chocolate is not all that great actually, I really don’t need to have chocolate again” This discernment will not come for a long time, or even ever in some cases: some will remain addicted to sex, chocolate, drugs or whatever all their life. This is why the left-hand path is there, by overindulgence in a short amount of time the appearance of discernment is accelerated. You need to experience whatever your object of desire is with great intensity, to the point where you blow your fuse out(no pun intended) this is why Osho held those orgies in his ashrams.

#55

I remember what a very wise man told me in India: Nobody has ever really experienced sex. To really experience sex become a complete animal.

I have had loads of sex, and yet I feel like I have not really experienced sex properly yet. When I do, I will become celibate.

#57

It is an odd thing to do to get attention with suicide talk…what is there to gain from it? can someone explain?

#58

Well if you say you are the ego it will have to stand for you. The ego is the barrier to overcome to become the real you the self. The ego will be hurt if someone tell you you are bad if you dont bother it means you are on the right path also we shouldnt become overjoyus when people say we are good. The ego is holding us back. But of course we can say we are the ego when the ego is speaking (which means we are not enligthened) so in a sense you are correct when you say this. IT is like saying i am the self if i have never seen it just because i believe the scriptures it is also wrong. We can belive it. But we are not the self when we are ruled by the mind.As then we wouldnt behave like fools sometimes.

And as you now said your self the ego loves to critisize. When we put critize behind us we come to the next level. But i guess this is the last thing the ego wants to hear.
Just be aware of the reaction when we read this and it will tell us alot about our state of mind.

[U][I]It is an odd thing to do to get attention with suicide talk…what is there to gain from it? can someone explain?

Kind Regards Kareng[/I]

Well it is not so hard to understand, people that are ignorant do whatever they can or their ego will try to get attention. And if you dont know what way will work you will experiment, someone that is more logical can understand what is the counterreaction to this behaviour to some extent they can count that out so they dont do foolish things (this you get from exprience). Its like children without so much experience they do foolish things and then they learn and get more knowlegde and hopefully they learnt not to do the same mistake again.
For you that obviously have more experience it seems like a strange way because you look with it from your own perspective. Try to put your self in others situation can work sometimes which means dont use your logic as it will be hard to know others from your own experience.

#59

It’s true that everyone has their own path, and it doesn’t make sense to compare relationships with spiritual life. Some people excel in different areas, and that's perfectly fine. Even monks choose a different way of life, which doesn’t mean they’re unfit for spirituality. People should be encouraged to grow at their own pace. Whether it’s finding a partner through something like Christian Mingle or pursuing a spiritual journey, both can coexist. The world needs more encouragement to do good, even in small ways.