Has anything positive come from this forum?

Spirituality Religion
#41

[QUOTE=David;58152]We obviously can’t stop others. What can we do for ourselves so that we don’t violate what we hold dear?[/QUOTE]

The conflicts in this forum boil down to one thing: history and ignorance of history.

Eurocentric vs non-Eurocentric/scholarly views on Indian history.

The former is the most prevalent world view and highly degrading to us Hindus and our culture.

You have no idea what it feels like when someone says “the IVC peoples were cannibals,” “Yoga predated Hinduism,” and so forth. You have no idea what it feels like to an Indian/Hindu to explain the caste system and the mass poverty in his/her nation. You have no idea what it feels like when someone depicts Hinduism as nothing more than a baseless collection of rituals and mutant gods with no morality or logic whatsoever, while ignoring the countless philosophical sects in Hinduism.

Nowadays, new-comers to the religion forum are hooked onto the “Is Yoga Hinduism” thread and, out of ignorance (not that its their fault, since this is what is taught in Western schools), start spouting this stereotypical and degrading Eurocentric view of Indian history. So naturally, there will be sentiments expressed and emotions vented on one another, which are largely racial and cultural in nature.

No progress will ever be made on this forum while the Westerners/Indians here subconsciously believe their civilization, culture, ethics, intellectual/artistic forms of expression, etc are superior.

If there is to be any progress on this forum, it lies in a greater understanding of each other’s civilization and their accomplishments. A greater understanding of [B]WHY[/B] the West is the way it is and [B]WHY[/B] India is a country with terrible roads and drivers and dirty, smelly, cow-worshipping, Asian mexicans.

Acknowledgements must also be made, with respect to imperialism, colonialism, caste, so on.

It will do no good to go around asserting clich?d bits of wisdom and spirituality while saying things like “Westerners have no culture” and “India pioneered oppression and gave it to the West.”

#42

[QUOTE=reaswaran;58155]We can refrain from reacting.[/QUOTE]
Indeed.

[QUOTE=Nietzsche;58157]The conflicts in this forum boil down to one thing: history and ignorance of history.[/QUOTE]
If I had to choose one thing that is the root of conflict in this forum (and across this planet) it would be emotional immaturity.

#43

[QUOTE=David;58158]If I had to choose one thing that is the root of conflict in this forum (and across this planet) it would be emotional immaturity.[/QUOTE]

The state of the forum has its roots in ignorance.

As this is a forum about religion, cultural, racial, historical, and ideological factors come into play.

Then theres the emotional immaturity of the populace of this forum, the inability to [B]empathize[/B] with others. After all, the issues aforementioned are by no means not sensitive.

#44

[QUOTE=David;58158]Indeed.

If I had to choose one thing that is the root of conflict in this forum (and across this planet) it would be emotional immaturity.[/QUOTE]
I could not agree more. On the other hand, if all the members of this forum were to suddenly acheive emotional maturity overnight, I suspect that silence would descend on the forumn :slight_smile:

#45

[QUOTE=Nietzsche;58160]The state of the forum has its roots in ignorance.[/QUOTE]
Certainly.

As this is a forum about religion, cultural, racial, historical, and ideological factors come into play.

Then theres the emotional immaturity of the populace of this forum, the inability to [B]empathize[/B] with others. After all, the issues aforementioned are by no means not sensitive.[/QUOTE]
With emotional maturity comes compassion and empathy. Discussions of religion, culture, history, etc are simply what is being reacted to.

#46

[QUOTE=reaswaran;58161]I could not agree more. On the other hand, if all the members of this forum were to suddenly acheive emotional maturity overnight, I suspect that silence would descend on the forumn :)[/QUOTE]
Hahah, I would love nothing more. I hope we one day have to close this forum. In the meantime, hopefully it can be a place of acceptance of people wherever they are on their path.

Out of curiosity, in your opinion, what can people do to grow up on an emotional level?

#47

While in someways it may have helped some of us re-evaluate how we present ourselves online, for others it gives them a platform to in which to repeatively restate the same arugements over and over again. What should have been a learning relationship and an enlightening conversation between many faiths has become a disappointment. What new things have I learned about other faiths outside of Christianity? NOTHING! All I hear when I come here is “Who is a bigot”, “Racist” “Anti-Hindu”, “Idoit”

Be the change that you want to see. As far as I am aware TeeA you have made no attempts to start threads in this forum to promote religious dialogue or ask for knowledge about faiths outside of Christianity or any sincere request for it.

The reason for these wars is simple and easy to resolve. This all started with attacks on our religion which originally were just ignorant statements like “Yoga predates Hinduism” and “Hinduism is about caste system, polytheism and abuse to women, while Yoga is just a science or a method to connect to self/mind-body-soul integration” When originally I tried to correct these statements, rather than my Hindu viewpoint on my own religion and culture which I grew up in, been practicing for 10 years and studied extensively being given its due weight, I was attacked rather viciously and the ignorant statements about my culture maintained. This is when the clash of civilisations first began on this forum.

If from the start the members on this forum would have shown the emotional maturity to accept that Hindus have their own position and viewpoint on the matter of Yoga which ranges from Yoga is integral to Hinduism and Yoga is Hinduism then we never would have had any conflict. Instead this very view itself we have not only makes some feel agitated enough to attack or jump in to condemn the view, but they even feel it is OK to insult us personally for holding this view. I repeatedly get insulted on this forum simply because I hold pro-Hindu views and not favourable views of Abrahamic religions.

All the problems on this forum can be solved overnight if people learn to play nice. To accept the Hindus have their own position on this matter and many of us do consider our own culture to be superior and to learn to dialogue and discuss with us in a emotionally mature manner.

#48

Today is Good Friday…Best wishes to all Christians …

#49

If the Forum, continues in the same manner you for sure will have to close it down ,or more likely it will die of its own accord , I feel that a few people have taken on victim mode and cant move beyond this place ,these places of polarity , they in fact feed off it , it perhaps makes them feel alive and strong when all it is doing is keeping them in the small box they have defined for themselves I saw this on another forum where the only people left were the ones who take up points and defend and attack from these rigid positions ,Im sure they thought they were the defenders of the true yoga, they would especially reserve their snarling for any new people that came along ,the innocents who thought that they had come to a yoga forum where they perhaps expected some compassion and wisdom they became the only ones left and stated to argue among themselves , perhaps this is a reflection of humanity in its present condition !
Of course no one visits anymore except for the occasional spammer and even they have stopped bothering , I never posted on that forum because of the attacking but it did amuse me in a rather unskillful way , it was also interesting for me to watch my own reaction to the unskillful posts. The bottom line is one who is healthy does not need to hear the same old insults the same old poor me stuff ,over and over again or watch the attempted annihalation of people as a sport , because their is a lacking of something in someones life , or an inability to conduct a decent and respectful conversation If someone is hurt then they can share that without the need to belittle or attempt to belittle because the bellittled are of course the belittlers . It is very difficult to know anybody on a computer forum , all sorts of prejudices and false ideas may be formed they then get set in stone , and we converse from a place of ignorance .
To grow on an emotional level try yoga in all its spectrum ,find a teacher and study the sutras and live them , let go of fixed view , that can free things up a tad . I had never come across any thought of racism on this forum until it was brought up , now it seems to be a regular insult , its funny because half the time I never know what race a poster is . it just seemed like a bunch of people talking about yoga , what race they are doesnt seem to have a bearing on their understanding or conveyance of yogadhamma . For the record I do think that many in the west have belittled yoga and not respected its roots this runs deep and saddens me , colonialisation on an intellectual level , there are however a few teachers who have nothing but the upmost respect for the history of yoga and understand it and the role that indians have in this passing on of the knowledge. but the west has also had a popularising effect on the practises , but that knowledge used by the present western sharers of yoga definitely came through Indian teachers/gurus ,for me this is the most precious and profound action . The yoga the dharma will always be and it always has been, we dont have to worry about that . and we can let it gladden our heart , we can let the dharma shine or let it become occluded in the dust of ego , at the end of the day whether there is a yoga forum or not is of very little importance.

#50

I love the Religion section of the Forum.

Extremely informative
Enjoy seeing the passion people possess in their beliefs

xx

#51

[QUOTE=David;58163]Hahah, I would love nothing more. I hope we one day have to close this forum. In the meantime, hopefully it can be a place of acceptance of people wherever they are on their path.

Out of curiosity, in your opinion, what can people do to grow up on an emotional level?[/QUOTE]

Sorry to reply before the original poster, I hope you don’t mind me giving an opinion too…

Well how about developing more of a sense of humour to the challenging parts of the rich tapestry of life…??

Relaxing into debate, allowing people to express what they want to in a passionate manner, even rude manner…what of it???
I mean, does it destroy your inner faith in your particular beliefs, when you are challenged?? … Are the people bugging you, really bad people??.. Have you taken some time to assess the character of the person challenging you or are you basing your entire opinion on their posts alone??

I think a consideration of the above points might aid emotional growth???
Debating can get dirty, this is a fact so accept it…

#52

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;58168]Be the change that you want to see. As far as I am aware TeeA you have made no attempts to start threads in this forum to promote religious dialogue or ask for knowledge about faiths outside of Christianity or any sincere request for it.

.[/QUOTE]

While I may not have started threads, I have participated. There have been times I have asked for more, and even thanked you in providing that material when you have done so in an unbiased fashion. I have a very busy life, and sometimes have few minutes in the day to post in any forum. There are many days I don’t even log into the net. But when I do come here I don’t see somewhere I would like to engage in a conversation. There have been times I have posted to educate another member on the history of the denomination/religion I belong to. Often their view is colored by extreme interpretations of how a large minority of Christians choose to live their lives. Sometimes these posters interpret our Word (Bible) in a more literal fashion than many Christians I know. The point here is that when I pointed these things out I was accused of having a Western-bias or that I did not understand the plight of Hindi in their own nation at the hands of the evil Christians (Abrahamic Religions). Nowhere in my posts did I ever make such asumptions, and there are some here who also have not and have been labeled the same. And yet, IF we were to make such comments that some have made here in the real world, we would be shot.

Lastly open dialogue comes with open respectful conversation. Not with things like pages and pages of all the horrible wrong things that happen in the Bible. Or with comments about who’s religion is the best. It just turns people away. And often those are the very people you are needing to listen at that time. They are the ones who are going to be open, truthful and willing to listen. You have to cultivate the environment of open dialogue and not fill it with negativity or superiority if you want others to engage.

TeeA

#53

I think everybody on this forum should watch this: Buddhist debate training

These Buddhist monks are being trained how to destroy the views of non-Buddhists so they destory their ignorance and wrong view, and replace it with knowledge and right view.

I think this dispells a major myth that spiritual people/yogis do not debate . They do in fact, and it was due to India’s formal debating culture which has been going on for thousands of years, that a rich and diverse tapestry of philosophical and religious thought existed and why there was so much scientific, philosophical and spiritual progress. In Hinduism, the great scholar Adisankarcharya use to travel the country looking for debates in order to destroy wrong views.

This is exactly what I am doing on the forum. I am trying to destroy the wrong views of Abrahamic-Western civilisation by making arguments against it using logic, by providing historical and current evidence to show this indeed is a wrong view. In order to replace it with the right view of Dharmic-Hindu civilisation. Ultimately, it is for the good of all, that should dharma prevail. Unless one would prefer to live in the current world dominated by Abrahamic-Western civilisation where the world is ravaged by war, corruption, social inequality, violence, debauchery. Thus I feel it a highly righteous cause to get rid of this Abrahamic-Western culture. Just as the Buddhists in the video feel it is a highly righteous cause to destroy the views of non-Buddhists.

As I said this all started when Hindus on this forum noted how prevalent wrong views about Hinduism and Yoga were on this forum. Initially, we politely tried to correct them and give authentic knowledge on this forum. What happened? We were viciously attacked. So who started all this? Us? No, it was Western-Abrahamic people on this forum who could not give us Hindus the due respect we deserved. Everything about us has been attacked on this forum our holy land of India, our customs, our history, our achivements, our sages. So pray/tell, how can you not expect Hindus to fight back?

Even though I have tried to maintain a lot of politeness on this forum, even with the trigger-happy new members who join, I have just been repeatedly insulted and attacked simply because I hold the view that Yoga is Hinduism. This is a dominant Hindu position, endorsed by the Hindu foundation of America and Hindu scholars and many gurus. Does that mean it is OK to viciously attack us all? Is it not possible to debate with us politely on why we hold this view? I have implored people on this forum repeatedly in the past to be rational, objective and polite - but my pleas fell on deaf ears. It is as if they felt it was legitimate to insult us as extremely as they wanted, even to the point of bringing our race into it - and attacking that as well.

So from my perspective it is not us Hindus who are the problem here, it is the reaction of Abrahamic-Western people against our views and positions. Now you claim there was no racism on this forum before we Hindus arrived. Wrong, there was, but nobody challenged it. Statements like

“Yoga predates Hinduism”
“Hinduism is a religion of caste system, cow worshipping, polytheism”
“Yoga is just exercise”

Were routintely stated on this forum as a matter of factly basis. These are streotypes which Hindus have to face all over the world. I don’t know a Hindu who has not expressed frustration at the false information spread about them. These views have been expressed even by Hindu teachers and Hindu scholars. We do consider these views to be racist because they pretty much negate our entire voice. It’s as if you can talk about Yoga without us and say whatever you want about it and interpret it as you want.

If there is no Hindu voice on this forum it will just lead to a highly lopsided forum. In fact it would be better than to just change the name “Yoga forum” to “Western Yoga forum” so that Hindus do not get the wrong impression that they are invited. I know that fortunately David does not think like this and is welcoming of all positions. This is why his forum is succesfull. As soon as he drops this attitude, that will be the end of the forum. It will be a boring place where everybody has the same position.

#54

I accept responsibility for occasionally rattling the cages. As for history, any half-educated person knows that the Greeks invented the Edible Complex. That’s where a boy would rather eat his mother’s cooking than go out for dinner.

καλό Πάσχα everyone!

#55

[QUOTE=David;58163]Hahah, I would love nothing more. I hope we one day have to close this forum. In the meantime, hopefully it can be a place of acceptance of people wherever they are on their path.

Out of curiosity, in your opinion, what can people do to grow up on an emotional level?[/QUOTE]

A very profound question, David. One that goes into the very root of spirituality.

If I am truly a spiritual aspirant, I would sense very strongly (if not actually feel -depending on how advanced I am in the path) the essential unity of the universe. If I can sense that my fellow humans and I are essentially one, I suppose I would feel a strong sense of kinship, if not actually love, for all my fellow humans (and hopefully for all life forms). And that overriding love would make me tolerant of the doings of others. So the answer is love and compassion for all is the key to emotional maturity.

#56

I agree that the forum is a farce and I only visit when I’m looking for a laugh. But, as charliedharma put it, it does feed my negative side in an unskillful way. I can choose non-participation as some wiser members have, but occasionally post something farcical whenever a new innocent wanders in thinking there may be honest debate on a subject they take seriously. Their experience here taints the forum as a whole and we lose more good people than we gain by indulging this section, which really has become base. For instance, if a new member genuinely wanted to discuss the shared values of major religions, it would quickly be hijacked by the 2 usual suspects and reduced to a nasty experience.

A suggestion: have this section require a separate log in with it’s own terms agreement so participants know full well what they are getting into (I know there is already a warning, but this takes it one more level). Keep the thread titles hidden. And, maintain the high forum standards in the remaining sections. I once was threatened with banishment for hinting that one of the ‘usual suspects’ didn’t get invited to parties much. Now, that same ‘suspect’ can call another member a moron and idiot without much afterthought. That debases us all, regardless of yogic status.

My thoughts.

#57

For instance, if a new member genuinely wanted to discuss the shared values of major religions

Are the Tibetean monks in the above video learning to discuss the shared values of their religions with other religions :wink:

You automatically assume that this is a good position to have, without realising that others may not agree. Are you trying to shove this dogma down our throats?

#58

Surya these Buddhist monks are not debating so that they can destroy the views of non
Buddhists , they are debating to better understand the dharma and the different stances , schools and viewpoints that the Buddhadharma offers. I doubt that they are concerned with the views of non buddhists . Im also sure that they as part of the training use skillful speech , its a great tradition .
I appreciate you sharing your knowledge of Hinduism and the History thereof , Im not sure anyone is looking to stifle debate , but your experience may be different ,obviously people on here are not going to be in accord alot of the time .

#59

Charliedharma, I believe you may have misinterpreted. They are debating to learn how to defeat other viewpoints. The right hand pushing down in the clapping motion signifies the suppression of wrong views. The left hand rising in the same clapping motion symbolizes the rising of correct views.

The person sitting down is holding a counter-view to the one debating such as “Everything is permenant” The person standing up is refuting the view and arguing against it based on the training they got in logic and teachings.

The debate training is done so that the monks can answer critisms of their viewpoints and argue against other viewpoints more sharply. Again, I will inform you, massive debates use to go on in ancient times between various schools of philosophy inside Buddhism and outside Buddhism.

#60

Yes but the debate is amongst buddhists and amongst monks , brothers in the dharma , I think I understand what they are doing and have even posted on this practise , probably in defence of debating tradition , I seem to remember . These debates I believe are judged by others One can take up a view and debate it without necessarilly agreeing with the view but having an understanding of that view this leads to great knowledge and understanding , and no doubt an ability to let go of fixed view.
Im not disagreeing that debates are intrinsic part of buddhist training just that they are not used to defeat those outside the sangha , but to come to a better understanding of the Buddha Dharma so it can be conveyed well , to those that may be attracted to the subject . Im not saying that these skills were never deployed , for insatnce there have been kings who would summon teacxhers from various traditions and debates would ensue , the king would then decide which school or doctrine to follow .
There is some great film footage of Krishnamurthi and Chogyam Trungpa Rimpoche having a discussion on dharmic matters , Krishnamurthi drones on with verbosity and Chogyam hardly says a word , to the un initiated it seems that Trungpa is not very bright in this clip , to the initiated he is of course a bodhisattva and Krishnamurthi looks rather vain and verbose. There are great teachers who could easily defeat others in debate but did not always choose to do so Shantideva was such a teacher he wrote the Bodhicaryavatara , he is one of the great Buddhist teachers , its a good story .
A quote from Shantideva
"Sentient beings are strange , although wishing for happiness they avoid its causes , although to avoid suffering they constantly create its causes."
Im not sure we are disagreeing here by the way .