…and obviously his audience are bhogis, not yogis.
I am interested in his scholarship, than him as a person. Wilber, Feuerstein et al have done very good scholarly work in the fields of Yoga and transpersonal psychology and are respected for it. The point I mentioned was that Feurestein classification of Yoga’s history is rather useful(and used by other scholars) and it goes to show us the evolution of Yoga through the ages from archaic forms during Vedic times to its more systematic physical cultural forms in modern times. The fact of the matter is there is no evidence the kind of modern physical form that we see in Kriya Yoga existed prior to post-classical times, it appears to have evolved late as part of the Hatha Yoga tradition(as it heavily based on the Hatha Yoga framework) which in turn is a part of Tantra.
There is no evidence Kriya Yoga existed before these times. The evidence for this is the earliest time when Kriya Yoga existed was in the times of Lahriri Mahasaya, and our only record of his teachings is through Yogananda. I would put my money on Kriya Yoga being invented sometime around then. Not that I see that as a bad thing, I already said earlier on Kriya Yoga is easily one of the most powerful types of Yoga out there - it is 100% effective - just don’t buy into all the cock and bull stories of its 7000 year history - they do more harm to its credibility than good.
Haha yeah, new-age woo-woo people like omshanti hate people like me, because we ask them to give evidence for their claims.
He wants me to start a new thread to argue Kriya Yoga. It does not work like that im afraid. If somebody is going to start a thread on the HOLY 7000 year Kriya Yoga tradition and warn people about how it is being hijacked by every other tradition of Kriya Yoga other than their own - they better give evidence to support their claims 
Omshanti obviously does not want his claims challenged. Too bad, eh?
[QUOTE=Sarvamaṅgalamaṅgalā;69715]…and obviously his audience are bhogis, not yogis.[/QUOTE]
Have you actually read any of the books and publications by Wilber and Feuerstein? If you have, please mention which ones and what is your opinion on them.
Two claims Omshanti made categorically:
- Yes, Kriya Yoga is a re-calibrated sect of original Tantra-yoga, which by all accounts dates back to approximately 5000 BCE. This is what I refer to as ‘ancient’.
- There is indeed references to this yoga in the Vedas, Upanishads, Gita, etc. etc.
I have just asked him, rather politely may I add, to provide references. Notice he mentions positively there are accounts of Kriya Yoga’s 7000 year history and that there are references in the “Vedas, Upanishads, Gita etc” to Kriya Yoga. Excellent, then he should have no problems providing references
Of course if he does not have references or does not want to share them, then why go around making such claims? Does he expect us all to just take his word for it?
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;69725]Have you actually read any of the books and publications by Wilber and Feuerstein? If you have, please mention which ones and what is your opinion on them.[/QUOTE]
I have read almost all book reviews written by Georg Feuerstein on his website and I have also browsed through some of his books. But I have never read one from cover to cover. He tries to look like a scholar of traditionalism, but with books like “sacred sexuality” he is proving that he is simply a new age writer who writes for bhogis and not yogis. He is also very absorbed by Jesus Christ and holds a lot of universalistic and new age beliefs. This isn’t suprising given his background with that hippie sect. Ken Wilber is the same, a universalist with new age ideas who thinks that traditional knowledge from the east needs improvement from his “intellect” in order to fit a western audience. I try to ignore both writers. I always research people before I take the time to read their books from cover to cover and after learning about these two fellows I will probably never read a book written by them.
As to Wilber:
I have read three of his books and they don’t have anything of what you say. They were worthwhile readings.
I specially love “Up From Eden”.
He is not a genius, and doesn’t pretend that either… but a man with a great knowledge who has read hundreds of books. He is legitimate to integrate into a new system the knowledge he has acquired.
Indeed, I too have not found Wilber’s material as you say it is Sarva. Wilber does not try to portray himself as a genius and plagiarize the Eastern stuff, he freely acknowledges his debt to the Eastern stuff and is often drawing attention to it and uses its terminologies as well(such as A-field, akashic field) Wilber’s contribution to the expansive field of spirituality is a new understanding of religious experience as human mystical experience and being able to offer new ways of analyzing religion and facilitating inter-religious dialogue. He has been very influential in even getting Church officials to accept Eastern religions and practices(Such as Abbot father Merton)
Unless you see this as undermining Hinduism?
I am surprised you do not like Feurestein, but I think you might change your ideas if you read his book, “The deeper dimension of Yoga” In the book he makes a case that Yoga cannot be separated from its Hindu roots and encourages all yogis to fully immerse themselves in the Hindu literature to understand Yoga(including Puranas and epics) He also educates that the Vedic people are Indian and the Rig Veda is thousands of years older than previously thought. He gives a wealth of information on Yoga’s history, practice and philosophy and extensive bibliographies. He also looks at Buddhist and Jain traditions of Yoga. I highly recommend the book.
Sacred sexuality is not a new-age idea, it is found in medieval times in many places around the world such as sexual alchemy, sexual tantra and taoist sexuality. These practices were not of course practiced by everybody, but by initiates of esoteric traditions.
- By “hijackers of holy Kriya Yoga” I meant yoganada, shibendu, etc.
-
I am NOT making the claim that your belief system ‘hijacked’ it’s information from Kriya Yoga. I am claiming that specific individuals have exploited the history of kriya, and these are the criminals.
-
I am NOT making the claim that kriya yoga is the only authentic Pranayam yoga.
-I am NOT making a claim that kirya yoga is older or better than your beliefs. I have sad: in the lineages of Kriya it is taught that Lahiri Mahshaya’s guru told him that the techniques have been practiced by ancient yogis in Northern India, but this is not something for you to mind-trip on forever and ever.
-Because this is not important, let’s just refrain from discussing the age and origin of yoga, ok?
- I am NOT looking for the “oldest” of most “ancient” any thing.
- Forget about the 7000 years comments, okay? I didn’t realize that it would send you into a psychotic episode for weeks and months. I was merely passing on what has been said by others (yogis) to me. I found the story inspiring, it wasn’t meant to be a historical debate.
I understand that you cannot read such information with debating it, so I will no longer be making such statements, ok?
- Babaji
-
Our lineage begins with Lahiri Mahashay, in 1861. If you want some more ancient folklore or ghost-stories and things of super-ancient lineages thats fine, but those in this lineage are ‘okay’ with it having been incepted in 1861. The need for the “oldest and best” yoga is a desire springing from the ego.
-
Since there is no archaeological or genetic history of Himalayan yogis, the proof of their existence cannot be discussed. So, let’s take this off of the table too. It is irrelevant to the techniques of Kriya anyway.
- New-Age
- I find it hurtful that you lump people into this category without even knowing them personally. I could be a very logical and practical scientist, and you throw me away as a ‘new-ager’
- Respect
- I respect your rights to believe whatever you want to believe. You need to be doing the same for everyone else. I find your attitude extremely hypocritical to attitudes of yoga. It’s like you live your life from books. In all honesty, I feel bad for you because you are missing out on the treasures of being a sensitive person. I feel bad for your wife and children if you have any. Let it all go man. We get it, you’re an expert. What do you want? Robes? Medals? Awards? Certifications?
Sure you can put your faith in one man’s guesswork, or you could update your knowledge of the human race based on irrefutable genetic research. After watching this video, if you have questions, go do some actual research work. Pull your heads out of the sand.
I could be a very logical and practical scientist, and you throw me away as a ‘new-ager’
Haha. I don’t think so my friend by your irrational statements, extreme emotional overreactions at the request to provide references for your claims(second nature to a scientist). You also end up replying to arguments people have not even made, which clearly shows you are not even listening. You do come across as an out and out fanatic to me, no joke. I mean come on you started a fanatical thread warning everybody about the evil criminals that are defiling your great holy tradition that goes back 7000 years. If that is not fanatical, what is?
Dude, people were SEXUALLY ABUSED by these fake gurus. I was trying to help future people from being abused by these cult leader psychopaths. Please show some sensitivity towards this. I don’t know what your problems are man, and I don’t want to know. Get a life, please. This is not a hobby. Sexual and physical abuse is a serious matter, and at this time there are only a handful of people that know the truth about this.
- By “hijackers of holy Kriya Yoga” I meant yoganada, shibendu, etc.
- I am NOT making the claim that your belief system ‘hijacked’ it’s information from Kriya Yoga. I am claiming that specific individuals have exploited the history of kriya, and these are the criminals.
My belief system what? 
My friend, you are the one here making claims. We are simply testing your claims. It is not our belief that you have not given any evidence for your claims. What is known for sure is you have made several categorical claims and thrown a hissy fit when you were asked to providence evidence for them
As far as I know I cannot encounter anything called Kriya Yoga prior to Yogananda. The first mention in history of of Kriya Yoga comes from Yogananda. He apparently had a guru called Sri Yuketshar and Sri Yuketshar had a guru called Laharishi Mahasaya. There is no independent reference to Laharishi Mahasaya outside of Yogananda.
Nobody knew anything about Kriya Yoga prior to Yogananda in the modern world. But after Yogananda countless groups popped up claiming the “true kriya Yoga” and even more super secret lineages that Yogananda was not privy too. Even today groups and individuals pop up claiming to be the real Kriyabans. It sounds like the group you are preaching so loudly for on this forum is one of those. Thus I am not probably that far in seeing you as a wee bit fanatical!
The myth of Babaji cannot be separated from Kriya Yoga, because it comes from Yogananda itself, the first person to bring it to the world. His gurus also peddled the babaji myth, as well as other myths like super-secret astrology and super secret Yoga calenders.
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;69761]
As far as I know I cannot encounter anything called Kriya Yoga prior to Yogananda. The first mention in history of of Kriya Yoga comes from Yogananda. He apparently had a guru called Sri Yuketshar and Sri Yuketshar had a guru called Laharishi Mahasaya. There is no independent reference to Laharishi Mahasaya outside of Yogananda.[/QUOTE]
This is not correct. My lineage from India is a lineage of Panchanon Bhattacharya. Nothing to do with the Swamis called Yukteswar and Yogananda.
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;69761]
Nobody knew anything about Kriya Yoga prior to Yogananda in the modern world. But after Yogananda countless groups popped up claiming the “true kriya Yoga” and even more super secret lineages that Yogananda was not privy too. Even today groups and individuals pop up claiming to be the real Kriyabans. It sounds like the group you are preaching so loudly for on this forum is one of those. Thus I am not probably that far in seeing you as a wee bit fanatical![/QUOTE]
You are right about this. I deeply apologize for coming across that way and making that impression on you. You have to understand, I have never written about yoga or engaged in these online forums, up until now I have only discussed things in person, which allow me to gauge the listener’s reactions/feelings moment to moment. I am not being sarcastic or anything: for this, I am sorry. Thank you for showing me I have been a bit overly fanatical in my writings.
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;69761]
The myth of Babaji cannot be separated from Kriya Yoga, because it comes from Yogananda itself, the first person to bring it to the world. His gurus also peddled the babaji myth, as well as other myths like super-secret astrology and super secret Yoga calenders.
[/QUOTE]
The nonsense myths of Babaji can be deleted because they have never been apart of my lineage. It is the musings of a madman from one specific line of teachers. Yes, he did happen to get to America first and basically tarnish the impression of what kriya yoga is for the rest of the world.
[QUOTE=omshanti;69760]Dude, people were SEXUALLY ABUSED by these fake gurus. I was trying to help future people from being abused by these cult leader psychopaths. Please show some sensitivity towards this. I don’t know what your problems are man, and I don’t want to know. Get a life, please. This is not a hobby. Sexual and physical abuse is a serious matter, and at this time there are only a handful of people that know the truth about this.[/QUOTE]
ROFL, that was random, where did that pop up from!!! Where is your evidence that Yogananda sexually abused people?
If Yogananda is fake, and I am willing to consider that as a possibility and await evidence as usual for you to substantiate your claims, then we have to reject all of Kriya Yoga as fake, because as I said he is the only one we first came to know Kriya Yoga through. This means we have to reject every other group that came after him borrowing his fake stories, including yours
I have a practical approach to Kriya Yoga. I know the techniques work, so I can continue to do them. The whole business about lineages, ascended masters, miracles in Yogananda that surrounds it matters very little to me. It is most probably fake. The first impression I got when I read Yogananda ABY, was that it sounded too fake, like something straight out of a Harry potter novel.
This is not correct. My lineage from India is a lineage of Panchanon Bhattacharya. Nothing to do with the Swamis called Yukteswar and Yogananda.
Then you have the burden of proof to show that your lineage is the original Kriya Yoga lineage that begins with Laharishi Mahasaya. Do you have evidence for this claim, or is it simply the belief of your particular group and guru that you are the original ones and everybody else is a fake?
Forgive me, but you can’t blame me for being skeptical.
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;69763]ROFL, that was random, where did that pop up from!!! Where is your evidence that Yogananda sexually abused people.[/QUOTE]
You’re rolling on the floor laughing about this? Read the first page of the thread. People have been abused in India by Dharmendra Vats and throughout the world by Shibendu Lahiri. Once again you have proven to be insensitive and quick to form an opinion.
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;69763]
If Yogananda is fake, and I am willing to consider that as a possibility and await evidence as usual for you to substantiate your claims, then we have to reject all of Kriya Yoga as fake, because as I said he is the only we first came to know Kriya Yoga through. This means we have to reject every other group that came after him borrowing his fake stories, including yours ;)[/QUOTE]
Very well. I understand. I will let you know if I compile a book about this.
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;69763]
I have a practical approach to Kriya Yoga. I know the techniques work, so I can continue to do them. The whole business about lineages, ascended masters, miracles in Yogananda that surrounds it matters very little to me. It is most probably fake. The first impression I got when I read Yogananda ABY, was that it sounded too fake, like something straight out of a Harry potter novel.[/QUOTE]
Right on man, you are smarter and luckier than the people that get caught up in the various trappings of fake gurus.
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;69764]Then you have the burden of proof to show that your lineage is the original Kriya Yoga lineage that begins with Laharishi Mahasay. Do you have evidence for this claim, or is it simply the belief of your particular group and guru that you are the original ones and everybody else is a fake?[/QUOTE]
I will make some efforts within the next few weeks to compile an intellectually accurate lineage tree descending from Lahiri Mahashaya. My guru has documents and information that will help this situation. It will take time to compose this, but I will do this.
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;69764]
Forgive me, but you can’t blame me for being skeptical.[/QUOTE]
I don’t blame you, you have to protect your self. I understand and hope we can remain friendly from now on.
You’re rolling on the floor laughing about this? Read the first page of the thread. People have been abused in India by Dharmendra Vats and throughout the world by Shibendu Lahiri. Once again you have proven to be insensitive and quick to form an opinion.
I am not laughing at ‘sexual abuse’ I am laughing at how you randomly just bought it up! Yes I know many fake gurus have engaged in sexual abuse of their disciples, and these criminals need to be punished accordingly by the law. However, if you are now making the claim that a particular Kriya Yoga guru is sexually abusing his disciples, you have to actually support your claims. Otherwise, in real life it is punishable by civil law as defamation. It is highly irresponsible to smear the name of somebody on the internet without actually giving solid evidence. If somebody did the same to your guru, would you like it?
Right on man, you are smarter and luckier than the people that get caught up in the various trappings of fake gurus.
Indeed, but how can you be certain you are not caught in the trappings of a fake guru? It is easy to point your fingers at others, but that same finger can point back to.
What you have told me so far about your tradition has raised more than a red flag with me. If your guru is preaching to you that every other Kriya Yoga group, including the original one we know is fake and their gurus criminals and motivating his followers like yourself to go on internet forums preaching against them for defiling your holy tradition, and only his group is the real authentic one, then I am sorry to say, it sounds fanatical.
At this moment I have no trust at all in the Kriya Yoga tradition you’re representing here. However, I am open minded and will always change my opinion based on evidence. Please provide evidence that your group is the original, real authentic one.
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;69767]I am not laughing at ‘sexual abuse’ I am laughing at how you randomly just bought it up! Yes I know many fake gurus have engaged in sexual abuse of their disciples, and these criminals need to be punished accordingly by the law. However, if you are now making the claim that a particular Kriya Yoga guru is sexually abusing his disciples, you have to actually support your claims. Otherwise, in real life it is punishable by civil law as defamation. It is highly irresponsible to smear the name of somebody on the internet without actually giving solid evidence. If somebody did the same to your guru, would you like it?[/QUOTE]
I will attempt to get more information on this. If my guru was under the suspicion of this activity, I would want to know; regardless of the apparent emotion behind the original messenger. I personally do not believe in gurus like most people. To me, a guru is supposed to be someone who can teach you the details of techniques. Nothing more, nothing less. I guess in actuality I am not by definition a “kriya yogi” specifically, but rather an individual that has had personal, first-hand experiences with the accused teachers - therefor, what you have is my personal perceptions. They are not reflective of the person who taught me certain yoga techniques. The techniques are sacred, not the gurus. I do not subscribe to that rhetoric, that’s why I felt judge by you previously.
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;69767]
Indeed, but how can you be certain you are not caught in the trappings of a fake guru? It is easy to point your fingers at others, but that same finger can point back to.[/QUOTE]
Because I do not subscribe to the idea that my guru is the only valuable teacher of yoga. I am saying that I find the techniques he teaches to be more useful than the ones others have personally taught me. My intentions are not to “point fingers” but rather, express my feelings and perceptions to an audience that could possibly relate. I am sorry again for being emotional in the beginning of this, as I was in a deep state and did not take into account what the consequences of the ‘tone’ could/would be.
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;69767]
What you have told me so far about your tradition has raised more than a red flag with me. If your guru is preaching to you that every other Kriya Yoga group, including the original one we know is fake and their gurus criminals and motivating his followers like yourself to go on internet forums preaching against them for defiling your holy tradition, and only his group is the real authentic one, then I am sorry to say, it sounds fanatical.[/QUOTE]
He is not telling me to say all this, this has been all of my own opinions/perceptions. On his website he wrote about how he values his experiences with SRF, and considers Yogananda to be his first guru.
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;69767]
At this moment I have no trust at all in the Kriya Yoga tradition you’re representing here. However, I am open minded and will always change my opinion based on evidence. Please provide evidence that your group is the original, real authentic one.[/QUOTE]
I understand; I will provide more information to you in the future when it becomes available.